Character = Character

[Skrlx]

cuz ISAI doesn't care about ONLINE ladders

 

[Zen Yore]

why the hell is this still opened...

 

[NeoKronos]

Ok. Matchups can have extreme, little or no influence on certain matches. Sometimes someone with better skill may win with a combination of character advantage and skill or may win with a character that is disadvantaged.

Sometimes a 'better skilled' player will be beaten by someone who may not be as skilled as them but is using a character that has certain advantages. It can go either way and any way, regardless of the matchup list thats been created by players, the only way to test if someone has more skill than the other is if they play every single character in dittos and the person with the most wins is technically better in skill at all characters. Yet some people may be very good at 3 or 4 characters and bad at the rest, whereas others are more well rounded.

Matchups do create advantages but these can be overcome with skill, and skill may sometimes be overcome with an advantageous matchup.

Ok finished my rant =P

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

dittos are not a mean of who's better with that character. A mirror match is just another matchup to learn, if the better player in general loses in a ditto, it doesn't mean they're worse than that person who beat them in the ditto. That's like saying falcon dittos are teh skill

 

[Kuraudo]

Dittos mean nothing. The more players you beat, the more characters you beat, if you do more than the person you could have lost that ditto to?

You're the better player if you advance further. Therefore, better with the character overall with the match-ups.

 

[ciaza]

Agreed with the above 2 posts, for example look at mario-mario, there is very little combo potential, and normally the match ends up into a throw>fireball fest. Same thing with ness dittos, it turns into who can throw>spike first, showing little skill from either side, making it very difficult to determine who has the most skill in their respective ness/mario.

 

[ballin4life]

Dittos mean something just like every other matchup does.

 

[asianaussie]

My Link ditto matchup is worse than my Link v Falcon/Fox matchups.

 

[DMoogle]

My Link ditto matchup is worse than my Link v Falcon/Fox matchups.

Wowwwwwww.

 

[Untrust Us]

My Link ditto matchup is worse than my Link v Falcon/Fox matchups.

boomerang/bomb fest

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

its like how I know that Sheer is a much better Yoshi than I am, its just that I win dittos vs him and he dislikes dittos

dittos do not matter, its how people are vs every character.

 

[Skrlx]

i dislike dittos

 

[AlanCiTuAndPope20]

dittos are not a mean of who's better with that character. A mirror match is just another matchup to learn, if the better player in general loses in a ditto, it doesn't mean they're worse than that person who beat them in the ditto. That's like saying falcon dittos are teh skill

Dittos mean nothing. The more players you beat, the more characters you beat, if you do more than the person you could have lost that ditto to?

You're the better player if you advance further. Therefore, better with the character overall with the match-ups.

Totally agree

 

[Lawrencelot]

Dittos do mean something. But they mean just as much as how good you are vs falcon, or vs pika, or vs whatever

 

[UnholyWeapon]

uhh.....Can't we all say isai has proven this? Any character can beat any character...yes some have better advantages than others but, doesn't mean you can't win :O!

 

[Stormcrow2]

THANK YOU MATTS! I absolutely 100% agree with your point, thank you for starting this thread. It makes me laugh when all people have to say about certain characters (like, idk... take NESS for example) is "Ness sucks and should never beat anyone!". Focus on skill. Get better at the game. For those of you who do say that stuff, I bet you can't 5-stock me (unless you're Isai) when I'm playing ness (with you as any character). The only point of tiers is for something to look at, and see who prefers using which characters over which. SSB 64 is an extremely well-balanced game, characterwise.

Stop wasting your time focusing on the tier list and go get better.

-Storm

(NOTE: I remember seeing someone ask about what the most well balanced fighting game ever was, besides smash 64 I would say the original Killer Instinct for the SNES could be it - it is very nicely balanced, I have played against some very competitive players.)

 

[hamburglar]

SSB 64 is an extremely well-balanced game, characterwise.

there is a huge balance differential between a lot of characters based on the learning curve each character has. no character is better than another, per say, but it is much easier and takes much less time to reach a higher skill level with certain characters than others. that is why smashh64 isn't necessarily "well-balanced, character-wise"

 

[Stormcrow2]

I would agree 100% with your statement there; I would say it does take a bit more time to learn and play well with characters like yoshi or ness, as opposed to kirby for example.

I guess what I meant was that the game is very well balanced in character "potential" - meaning, a very good player as pikachu or fox against someone who is very good with one of the lower tier characters, should still be a good battle.

 

[dandan]

I would agree 100% with your statement there; I would say it does take a bit more time to learn and play well with characters like yoshi or ness, as opposed to kirby for example.

I guess what I meant was that the game is very well balanced in character "potential" - meaning, a very good player as pikachu or fox against someone who is very good with one of the lower tier characters, should still be a good battle.

it should, but matchup advantages should also be considered.
i agree that the balance is better in this game than...(you know what comes here)
but still some matchups can be extremely hard, though surely not impossible.

 

[SheerMadness]

I'm not gonna lie. I don't like Yoshi dittos cause I suck at them. Gav got me down to 1 stock when he Yoshi ditto'ed me.

 

[Untrust Us]

I'm not gonna lie. I don't like Yoshi dittos cause I suck at them. Gav got me down to 1 stock when he Yoshi ditto'ed me.

really? i've always seen Yoshi dittos much like Falcon dittos.

Falcon: Get a usmash and you're set for a 0 to death

Yoshi: Get yoshi in a utilt combo and you're set.

 

[DMoogle]

Yoshi: Get yoshi in a utilt combo and you're set.

Not really, it's a lot more difficult to follow up and kill than it is with Falcon.

Unless, of course, your opponent's DI sucks.

 

[rom2014]

Aye! I agree with that. It's all about how a person uses a character.

 

[Number 28]

Yeah characters don't matter no matter what.

If I would hack Smash64 and double Pika's damage output and take away Link projectiles then Pika vs Link would still be just as equal. Character stats totally don't matter.

I'm sure Melee Pichu and Pikachu are equal too even though Pikachu is a superiour version of Pichu in about every way.

No seriously characters do matter. Though I agree that Smash64 is quite balanced.

 

[SilentSlayers]

So basically anyone smart can agree that both matter. The player clearly matters, the characters do too. To anyone with brains, this should be very obvious. It doesn't matter which variable out weights the other. Someone less skilled than you could beat you with pikachu sometimes, however, link vs pikachu isn't impossible to win with Link because skill difference can be a great factor. Yeah, random example.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

really? i've always seen Yoshi dittos much like Falcon dittos.

Falcon: Get a usmash and you're set for a 0 to death

Yoshi: Get yoshi in a utilt combo and you're set.

main difference is that Yoshi can get out of most combos by either DI'ing or DJCC'ing out of them

its not NEARLY as easy to 0 to death unless the opponent doesn't know to use basic Smash DI or if they use their double jump too predictable.

 

[MATTS!]

So as some of you have said, you still rate characters over players per players over characters. You also put tiers over players. Like I said before it's the PLAYER, not the character. Any character can BEAT any character regardless if you playing the best smash 64 player's or not. It's pure skill, fundamentals of smash per the player, not "tier characters." Like you say for Dittos, it's a mean of advancement of skill, not to prove that you character is over that character, because you guys HAVE THE SAME CHARACTER. It's the PLAYER that took that character over your chracter which is the same character, which then puts YOU,(NOT THE CHARACTER) over in skill level NOT "tier level." Teirs= Somebodys opinion, OR PERSONAL view of how they feel that individual character should be rated or ranked according to their skill level with that character of their use. Teirs are complete trash. I could say, Ness Top Tier, Kirby lowest tier, and guess what, IM not wrong, am I...? Nope. Im not wrong because it's not true nor it's not false, it's an OPINION. You can give 2 people that never played this game, and give one guy pikachu, and one guy jiggs, and any one of them can win. NOW you can turn around and give top samsh 64 players, one guy pikachu and one guy jiggs and any one of them can win, you wanna know why, cause it's the PLAYER, not the character. Thank you.


The Great MATTS!

 

[T1g3rbombz]

THANK YOU MATTS! I absolutely 100% agree with your point, thank you for starting this thread. It makes me laugh when all people have to say about certain characters (like, idk... take NESS for example) is "Ness sucks and should never beat anyone!". Focus on skill. Get better at the game. For those of you who do say that stuff, I bet you can't 5-stock me (unless you're Isai) when I'm playing ness (with you as any character). The only point of tiers is for something to look at, and see who prefers using which characters over which. SSB 64 is an extremely well-balanced game, characterwise.

Stop wasting your time focusing on the tier list and go get better.

-Storm

(NOTE: I remember seeing someone ask about what the most well balanced fighting game ever was, besides smash 64 I would say the original Killer Instinct for the SNES could be it - it is very nicely balanced, I have played against some very competitive players.)

i bet i can 5 stock ur ness...eased

 

[mr yo]

So as some of you have said, you still rate characters over players per players over characters. You also put tiers over players. Like I said before it's the PLAYER, not the character. Any character can BEAT any character regardless if you playing the best smash 64 player's or not. It's pure skill, fundamentals of smash per the player, not "tier characters." Like you say for Dittos, it's a mean of advancement of skill, not to prove that you character is over that character, because you guys HAVE THE SAME CHARACTER. It's the PLAYER that took that character over your chracter which is the same character, which then puts YOU,(NOT THE CHARACTER) over in skill level NOT "tier level." Teirs= Somebodys opinion, OR PERSONAL view of how they feel that individual character should be rated or ranked according to their skill level with that character of their use. Teirs are complete trash. I could say, Ness Top Tier, Kirby lowest tier, and guess what, IM not wrong, am I...? Nope. Im not wrong because it's not true nor it's not false, it's an OPINION. You can give 2 people that never played this game, and give one guy pikachu, and one guy jiggs, and any one of them can win. NOW you can turn around and give top samsh 64 players, one guy pikachu and one guy jiggs and any one of them can win, you wanna know why, cause it's the PLAYER, not the character. Thank you.


The Great MATTS!

of course matts thats absolutely right...but i recommend that before saying that tier list is wrong at least read the link to the tier list in the come here first thread:
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=262536 let me help you more:
"*IMPORTANT* The tier list is for HIGH LEVEL PLAY and was based off theorycrafting matchups. It is important to note that, unlike many other competitive tier lists, this list did not have significant tournament results to work with, and thus the community collectively discussed matchups and used MATH to come up with this list. It is not intended to let you to go and complain to your Pikachu using friends, nor is it there for you to say 'haha you suck because you use Samus'. Once again, it is for HIGH LEVEL PLAY."

is for HIGH LEVEL in the CURRENT metagame...without that consideration match up charts is not valid....

of course even at a high level the character skill and mindage is important....both thing are important....is just a matter of chances and possibilities...that doesnt mean:"so isai is 1,6 better than you but you are using pikachu and he is using samus so you chances of winning are 45,9%"

but both things matters, and match up chart is only valid at a high level....so at a high level pikachu has more advantages in dreamland against every character....but that doesnt mean you cant win...

yo are right in one point: dont cry about tiers...if you think certain match up is not even, you migh be "right"... but dont lose and then complain....metagame is always changing...just play and dont be a *****

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

^^^^ I will complain about Falcon if someone I know who doesn't main Kirby picks Kirby first round...Lol

Like in melee if I know someone is a fox main but they use Marth first round vs my Weegee.

Spoiler

Or Barlw if someone uses D3 first round if the infinite is on and they don't main him

^^^^
Game is hidden due to this forums.....issues with that game

 

[felipe_9595]

This is stupid, Pikachu Got a huge advantage against Ness, 2 player with the same hability, one using ness and the other using pikachu, the winner be the pikachu, Becuase he has advantage, the same thing with the other characters.

But if the ness is better then the pikachu, the ness can win, but pikachu too, because pikachu has advantage against ness

 

[asianaussie]

felipe summed up everything you should know and need to know, actually.

 

[linkoninja]

Well its true what you said considering this game.
But if a character could hit you from anywhere on the screen then obviously the character is clearly better.
Just saying
but yeah your right its the player not the character.
for the most part.

 

[dch111]

It doesn't matter whether you're playing DK or Polygon DK. The results are only based on player skill.

/s

 

[IceGhost]

MATTS! is so dumb. Whats also amazing is this idiot ONLY plays kirby and he's trying to tell everyone that all matchups are equal. How would he even know? He only ever plays kirby.. and only ever really u-tilts.
If all characters are equal, that means MATTS! would be as good with every single character as he is with kirby. So, MATTS! should go online and start playing Link against everybody. If his theory is correct, he will do just as well against anyone as he would do with his Kirby. MATTS! sucks.

 

[IceGhost]

What MATTS! is saying also means that if Isai was somehow able to play his Samus against his Pika, the results would be 50/50 split for as long as they played.

 

[Battlecow]

 

[asianaussie]

MATTS! is so dumb. Whats also amazing is this idiot ONLY plays kirby and he's trying to tell everyone that all matchups are equal. How would he even know? He only ever plays kirby.. and only ever really u-tilts.
If all characters are equal, that means MATTS! would be as good with every single character as he is with kirby. So, MATTS! should go online and start playing Link against everybody. If his theory is correct, he will do just as well against anyone as he would do with his Kirby. MATTS! sucks.

my Kirby is as good as my Link therefore all characters are equal

hur hur flawed logic

Players matter too, so if a player is bad with one character but good with another, they aren't equal for that person.

 

[The Star King]

I guess that means if I'm better with Fox than I am with Polygon Fox, that's just me as a player.

 

[rpotts]

I think the polygon example is kinda silly since they don't have Bmoves or grabs. polygon link = worst recovery ever.

Polygon yoshi would prolly be ok though. Probably the least affected, since his grab is so bad and he has no upb recovery.