Character = Character

[MATTS!]

Okay. 2 of the best players in smash have been talking about this for about 1 hour. Not Frogles said that Ness has disadvantages vs Piakchu which is not true. Player is over character no matter what. Ness has an equal chance to beat pikachu no matter what. Same goes with any other character vs. any other character. It involves skill. JUST cause pika recovery is better than ness's doens't mean pika has an advantage over ness. Like Samus vs Jiggs. It's one of the worst matchup's EVER. but they both have a chance to win EQUALLY. It's the player who has the skill and is able to control and attack and space, etc. better than the other one. All Characters = All Characters. PLayer>Character.

Ness=Pikachu
DK=Pikachu
Kirby=DK

and so on and so forth.


The Great MATTS!

 

[Lovage]

MATTS! has spoken

 

[NixxxoN]

I almost agree with everything. Player > character all day, thats 100% true. However, chars are not 100% balanced, but still, people should not care about tiers in this game like the melee tier fªggºts always do.

 

[Zen Yore]

Okay. 2 of the best players in smash have been talking about this for about 1 hour. Not Frogles said that Ness has disadvantages vs Piakchu which is not true. Player is over character no matter what. Ness has an equal chance to beat pikachu no matter what. Same goes with any other character vs. any other character. It involves skill. JUST cause pika recovery is better than ness's doens't mean pika has an advantage over ness. Like Samus vs Jiggs. It's one of the worst matchup's EVER. but they both have a chance to win EQUALLY. It's the player who has the skill and is able to control and attack and space, etc. better than the other one. All Characters = All Characters. PLayer>Character.

Ness=Pikachu
DK=Pikachu
Kirby=DK

and so on and so forth.


The Great MATTS!

You are wrong. The matchups in ssb64 aren't incredibly unbalanced, but still, some characters do have advantages on other characters.

For example, Pikachu vs Link.
Pikachu has a better recovery, is faster, has more "broken" hitboxes, has an easier combo'ing ability than Link and is harder to combo on due to the hitstun, knockback, quick moves like up+B, etc.

If a Pikachu player wins over a Link player, that doesn't mean the Pika player is better than the Link one in every case.



idc if any of you disagree, especially MATTS!, but this is my humble opinon.

 

[Zantetsu]

I love you, MATTS!

 

[Blue Yoshi]

So a Pikachu and a "Fighting Polygon Pikachu" have an even matchup against eachother. If the Pikachu player beats the Fighting Polygon Pikachu player, then the Pikachu player is clearly better than the Fighting Polygon Pikachu player since the matchup is even. Yeah, sounds about right, I agree.

 

[SSBPete]

Okay. 2 of the best players in smash have been talking about this for about 1 hour.

nice + i completely agree with you.

 

[SuPeRbOoM]

ness should always lose

 

[ballin4life]

Of course the matchup is 50/50. Either ness wins or pikachu wins.

 

[SheerMadness]

This is dumb. Matchups have a huge impact.

Especially comming from you MATTS lol. You have some of the worst habits of anyone on kaillera, like your god awful roll patterns. You're certainly not beating people because you outsmart them, you beat them because Kirby's margin of error is HUGE compared to other characters.

 

[dch111]

So a Pikachu and a "Fighting Polygon Pikachu" have an even matchup against eachother. If the Pikachu player beats the Fighting Polygon Pikachu player, then the Pikachu player is clearly better than the Fighting Polygon Pikachu player since the matchup is even. Yeah, sounds about right, I agree.

For those that don't know, Fighting Polygon Pikachu doesn't have Pikachu's B moves. Hence, it's bound to be worse because it's the same but with literally more options removed. There's no way you can call those characters equal.

In general I agree player skill is more important, but there's really no way Sakurai or any fighting game designer could have fully anticipated how well each character would end up being played years later and balanced accordingly.

 

[Blue Yoshi]

For those that don't know, Fighting Polygon Pikachu doesn't have Pikachu's B moves. Hence, it's bound to be worse because it's the same but with literally more options removed. There's no way you can call those characters equal.

Yes, that was the point of my post. Fighting polygons don't have B moves, no grabs, and I believe no shields (may be wrong on the shields). Pikachu is simply a better character than the Fighting Polygon Pikachu. Pikachu beating Fighting Polygon Pikachu does not make the Pikachu player a better player.

 

[WOTG]

Like I said in MATTS!'s chat after he and Frogles had their discussion, I found your post blunt and not well explained. Frogles still didn't fully side with you about every character being even. A player's skill can overcome character disadvantages, we both agreed, but those advantages and disadvantages are there.
I personally don't think those gaps are as huge as some people think, but it does come specifically harder depending on the match-up.

Pikachu and Kirby have cheap movesets and hitboxes and are incredibly easy to use(unless you are trying to do their more advanced combos, which is not that very hard to do....depending).
Other characters like Samus are easy to use but her moveset limits her potential, and it becomes harder for her against countering movesets.
But it's not literally impossible for Samus or any other character to win in a match-up, it's just harder.

.... If anyone wants a fully balanced game, play Starcraft.

 

[NixxxoN]

You have some of the worst habits of anyone on kaillera, like your god awful roll patterns. You're certainly not beating people because you outsmart them, you beat them because Kirby's margin of error is BIG compared to other characters..

Fixed lol.
I still say that rolling is not THAT bad. It can be effective using some chars, including Kirby, utilt spam and stuff in certain situations. The key is to mindgame the opponent and space well. At least from my exp, several players proved me that it can be hella annoying to play vs someone who is good at it

 

[Lovage]

people should not care about tiers in this game like the melee tier fªggºts always do.

i don't think you understand anything about that game

 

[SilentSlayers]

I agree with the people saying Matchups matter. Ness vs Pika is ****ed up man. A ness losing doesn't mean the pika player is better in every case. Zen Yore said it very well.

 

[SSBPete]

in the aussie server tiers dont seem to make a difference.

 

[ciaza]

in the aussie server tiers dont seem to make a difference.

Well that's not true, we jsut play who's fun, but if we do serious matches such as our upcoming tourney I don't plan to play link, rather my high tier mains of pikachu and mario, and as far as I knwo only Kuro plans to play as low tiers, since he likes the feeling of beating higher tiers with low tiers, lol.

 

[SheerMadness]

Yah I meant BIG. Thanks Nixxxon.

But rolling is bad buddy. Don't roll.

 

[NixxxoN]

But rolling is bad buddy. Don't roll.

Elaborate please?
I'm saying rolling can be good in some situations and in some points of the fight. Obviously you won't roll all day and let the opponent learn your patterns.

 

[Thino]

unless the skill gap between 2 players is huge , the matchup will still matter IMO

 

[SSBPete]

Well that's not true, we jsut play who's fun, but if we do serious matches such as our upcoming tourney I don't plan to play link, rather my high tier mains of pikachu and mario, and as far as I knwo only Kuro plans to play as low tiers, since he likes the feeling of beating higher tiers with low tiers, lol.

haha, i'll play as yoshi and mabye some luigi, samus or jiggs.
i dont plan to get very far though :S

 

[Lawrencelot]

Elaborate please?
I'm saying rolling can be good in some situations and in some points of the fight. Obviously you won't roll all day and let the opponent learn your patterns.

Rolling has lag. Usually most other out of shield options are better. In some situations rolling is the best option, but that's usually not the case. With Samus for example, upB is almost always better. With Fox, you could shine out of shield. With Falcon, upsmash. With Pika, nair. And with all chars, just jump out of shield.

 

[asianaussie]

I'll go Link against Pika/Fox/Kirby/whoever if I'm a match up

 

[SSBPete]

I'll go Link against Pika/Fox/Kirby/whoever if I'm a match up

good luck :S

 

[Dogboy]

I think that for once that people aren't whining about matchups and focusing on what matters- the player.
He's not saying that disadvantages don't exist, he's saying that a good player can accomplish anything with their chosen characters with practice.
Of course, this will tick the "experts" off because they regard character power tiers like they came straight from a sort of "smash bible", set in stone.. Which is completely false. A Ness can beat a Pikachu, even if pika is sss tier.
Of course pika will have an obvious speed advantage. He's not saying that this cannot be overcome.

 

[Fireblaster]

I think that for once that people aren't whining about matchups and focusing on what matters- the player.
He's not saying that disadvantages don't exist, he's saying that a good player can accomplish anything with their chosen characters with practice.
Of course, this will tick the "experts" off because they regard character power tiers like they came straight from a sort of "smash bible", set in stone.. Which is completely false. A Ness can beat a Pikachu, even if pika is sss tier.
Of course pika will have an obvious speed advantage. He's not saying that this cannot be overcome.

lol "speed advantage". I didn't even have to look at your icon to know you play brawl.

 

[Frogles]

I think that for once that people aren't whining about matchups and focusing on what matters- the player.
He's not saying that disadvantages don't exist, he's saying that a good player can accomplish anything with their chosen characters with practice.
Of course, this will tick the "experts" off because they regard character power tiers like they came straight from a sort of "smash bible", set in stone.. Which is completely false. A Ness can beat a Pikachu, even if pika is sss tier.
Of course pika will have an obvious speed advantage. He's not saying that this cannot be overcome.

except he IS saying disadvantages dont exist. he's pretty much saying all chars are equally balanced and tiers dont exist. matts and i both agreed that player > character. we agreed that any char CAN beat any char. we just disagreed on whether or not characters have advantages on each other which is what this thread is about.

 

[Llumys]

Balance? In a Smash game?

Lol.

 

[DaisyBoo92]

This is a stupid debate, it's a MATTS! topic. I like his self confidence though.

 

[hamburglar]

MATTS! got his Bachelor's degree in Smashology from the University of Utilt

 

[NixxxoN]

Balance? In a Smash game?

Lol.

Don't put all three games in the same unbalanced category please, thx. SS64 way more balanced than Melee n Barwl

Rolling has lag. Usually most other out of shield options are better. In some situations rolling is the best option, but that's usually not the case. With Samus for example, upB is almost always better. With Fox, you could shine out of shield. With Falcon, upsmash. With Pika, nair. And with all chars, just jump out of shield.

You've said the worst possible example here on Samus rolling. I didnt say all chars, some chars have good roll and some have a "please hit me" terrible roll.

 

[hamburglar]

is there a fighting game where all the characters are balanced?

 

[JustCause]

is there a fighting game where all the characters are balanced?

Actually, I seem to recall a fighting game in which there was only one character. That game was balanced.

 

[DMoogle]

I'm glad it's unbalanced. Makes it more fun and interesting when there's a skill gap, which there nearly always is.

 

[MATTS!]

I think that for once that people aren't whining about matchups and focusing on what matters- the player.
He's not saying that disadvantages don't exist, he's saying that a good player can accomplish anything with their chosen characters with practice.
Of course, this will tick the "experts" off because they regard character power tiers like they came straight from a sort of "smash bible", set in stone.. Which is completely false. A Ness can beat a Pikachu, even if pika is sss tier.
Of course pika will have an obvious speed advantage. He's not saying that this cannot be overcome.

100% True.

You people are still incorporating moves, rolling etc. saying that those specific characters will win even if it does not determine an individual's skill. Like I said before, JUST because a overpowering move over another character's move hit's them, and this "tier move" can overpower the opponents move, DOES NOT MEAN IT'S NOT AN EQUAL FIGHT. You people are letting this "Teir" thing/image of super smash player character thats the best TAKE OVER THE WAY YOU THINK. If everybody said Luigi was top tier and had charts and stuff proving Luigi was "top teir," then you all would believe that, and LOOK AT LUIGI AS THE BEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME. THIS IS 100% WRONG TO DO. Your being brainwashed by the "smash experts" with there numbers and garbage.


The Great MATTS!

 

[Deleted member]

This is dumb. Matchups have a huge impact.

Especially comming from you MATTS lol. You have some of the worst habits of anyone on kaillera, like your god awful roll patterns. You're certainly not beating people because you outsmart them, you beat them because Kirby's margin of error is HUGE compared to other characters.

lol at complaints

rollings useful if you don't roll with Yoshi or Samus though

 

[NixxxoN]

100% True.

You people are still incorporating moves, rolling etc. saying that those specific characters will win even if it does not determine an individual's skill. Like I said before, JUST because a overpowering move over another character's move hit's them, and this "tier move" can overpower the opponents move, DOES NOT MEAN IT'S NOT AN EQUAL FIGHT. You people are letting this "Teir" thing/image of super smash player character thats the best TAKE OVER THE WAY YOU THINK. If everybody said Luigi was top tier and had charts and stuff proving Luigi was "top teir," then you all would believe that, and LOOK AT LUIGI AS THE BEST CHARACTER IN THE GAME. THIS IS 100% WRONG TO DO. Your being brainwashed by the "smash experts" with there numbers and garbage.


The Great MATTS!

Totally agree except the green part. Althought since not so long people really believed Ness was Top tier lol.

 

[MattNF]

this topic is bad and you should feel bad.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

I would rephase that as to you have an equal chance of winning TILL you pick. I believe there is no match-up that one can't overcome in the first 2 smash games but only because of mindgames and tools(like DJC adds a tool to being faster and could be used to mess with there mind) the more tools the more likly you have to mess with them.