Celebrity Rehab Mafia: Day 5 Begins! Deadline is Monday, May 28th at 11:59 PM EST!

[#HBC | marshy]

oh my bad. that leaves x1 and chaco (vinyl) as the leading wagons which is good. consider me in the chaco wagon in spirit

j you are town? tell the truth

 

[#HBC | J]

Yeah I'm town dude.

If you are on the chaco wagon in spirit, why not make it a reality?

 

[#HBC | Gorf]

Deadline set for 4/10 at 11:59 PM!

frozenflame751- (0)
KevinM- (1) Overswarm
X1-12- (4) Red Ruy, Macman, Marshy, Kantrip
Rajam- (1) Orboknown
Rockin- (3) KevinM, Chaco, Pink Lemonade
Dark Horse- (0)
Macman- (0)
marshy- (0)
Vinyl.- (3) Kafkaesque, X1-12, J
Pink Lemonade (Ranmaru/July hydra)- (2) Rajam, Dark Horse
Kafkaesque- (0)
J- (0)
Red Ryu- (1) Vanderzant
Orboknown- (0)
Kantrip- (2) Frozenflame, Rockin
Vanderzant- (0)
Overswarm- (0)

Not Voting- (0)

 

[#HBC | marshy]

Walk me through why you like macman so much. Help me see why a PR shouldn't head his way.

look at your own scumlist. 1/4th of the playerlist should die before him. i dont see how hes a priority and if we dig deeper into your null category id say he should live over the other ones youve got in there. i wonder why you threw out me/macman/orbo/rajam as potential investigatives out of your null pool but not the others? i dont find it scummy at all but just am curious

Yeah I'm town dude.

If you are on the chaco wagon in spirit, why not make it a reality?

cuz im happy with the x1 wagon!
might switch before days end tho

 

[#HBC | J]

look at your own scumlist. 1/4th of the playerlist should die before him. i dont see how hes a priority and if we dig deeper into your null category id say he should live over the other ones youve got in there. i wonder why you threw out me/macman/orbo/rajam as potential investigatives out of your null pool but not the others? i dont find it scummy at all but just am curiouscuz im happy with the x1 wagon!
might switch before days end tho

You four are the four I have the least amount on due to things in thread, having a PR hit one of those four could give more insight to those slots. The others actually have posts that can be analyzed better whereas I don't have much from you four in terms of posts. I always like hitting question marks with NAs unless I have super obv scum-reads.

But the Vinyl wagon is cooler than the X1 one. =<

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

What X1 is doing is looking at the context of a situation and choosing my alignment based on his interpretation of my motivation for putting myself in the spotlight. You going on about "but then what if that's what he wants as scum" is just spreading FUD as far as I'm concerned. Rather than weighing the options or coming up with an actual read based on the situation, you're applying mechanical, circular logic to it and coming in with the notion that I am scum. I sincerely doubt you are actually coming to a conclusion here. You are either:

A) Tunneling; or
B) Scum carrying out a plan with a pre-conceived plan

If that's how you're describing what X1 is doing, then I am literally doing the exact same thing. You two just have your head so far up your ***** that you think that just because I have a different interpretation of your actions (which I've actually backed up with arguments btw, unlike X1 who just threw out some baseless general "scum don't do X" mantra and thought that was sufficient), I somehow am "spreading FUD". I'm weighing the options WAY more then either ****ing one of you. Just because you don't agree with me doesn't mean I'm not actually making constructive arguments. You two just won't hear any of it. Seriously, if you actually read my posts you'd see that. The fact that you seriously like X1 is doing some sort of beneficial analysis when he isn't at all, and that I'm just latching on to an idea without furthering it at all (btw, this is what X1 has been doing) fundamentally shows me you're not ****ing reading, or understanding anything that I'm saying at all. You've proven to me at the very least that you're very, very dumb. This combined with your initial response to my attacks on you (which I've explained previously why that was scummy) and the fact that you aren't actually evaluating any arguments, merely what side people stand on, shows you that you're probably scum.

This comment makes me lean towards the former option. I think you're going too far from thinking "this doesn't clear him" and swinging it into me being scum. I don't recall seeing you show me scum motivation for putting oneself in the spotlight. The only scum motivation you're even inferring is that it can make people give you a free pass because scum doesn't usually do that. So what is it? A null tell.

I never ****ing said you had a definitely scum motivation for putting yourself in the spotlight. Jesus christ. X1 is the one who was ****ing arguing that I shouldn't suspect you for putting yourself out there. I never said that I thought you were scum for putting yourself in the spotlight. I've BEEN ARGUING THE ENTIRE TIME THAT YOUR VOCALNESS IS A NULL TELL. I've been trying to show X1 why him arguing "oh, kantrip put himself out there early so he probably isn't scum" is ****ing ********, and isn't an adequate response to my initial attacks on you that had NOTHING TO DO WITH YOUR VOCALNESS, and everything to do with the IDEAS YOU SUGGESTED AND YOUR INITIAL RESPONSE TO THOSE ATTACKS I MADE ON YOU. Seriously, go back and read. All the arguments I made about early game vocalness were simply there to show how someone being vocal early in the day is value neutral. I was explaining how it can be beneficial for BOTH TOWN AND SCUM PLAYERS.

You are an idiot. Plain and simple. Not only did you misinterpret, but after you have it explained to you you continue to show off your ignorance. Let me spell it out very simply for you:

YOU displayed suspicion on ME first.
I then displayed pressure ONTO YOU.
You called me scum for suspecting you. I can pull up the quote if you're going to continue to be ******** about this. YOU pulled OMGUS on ME. I did not word anything badly, you're just completely failing at reading.

See above. Just because you didn't say "OMGUS" doesn't mean you didn't call me on it. You did.

Wow really, you want to play this game? Let's look at the actual posts so that you stop pretending like you actually know what happened:

My post: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14278836&postcount=346

The only part of the post that was addressed to you was this:

"Cool, you called me aggressive, an opportunist, and "forced". Oh and man, look at all that analysis. Totally not just labeling and namecalling. You really got me good dude. Man, I wish I could make as compelling an argument as you by just throwing negative descriptors out there and acting as if I actually made a point.

I mean cmon even Kevin knows you're talking out of your ***:"

Nothing even CLOSE to an OMGUS argument. Then you respond with this post:

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14279420&postcount=357

Where YOU try to spin my response to you as some kind of "OMGUS card". Let's look at your little flowchart again:

YOU displayed suspicion on ME first.
I then displayed pressure ONTO YOU.
You called me scum for suspecting you.

The first two are roughly accurate. The last part is not accurate at all.

An actually accurate representation of the exchange is this:

1.) I attacked you.
2.) You responded by attacking me back.
3.) I explained that your response to my attacks was basically nothing more than namecalling and labelling.
4.) You responded by saying I was "pulling the OMGUS card", which I wasn't.

I'd love to see you try to explain how that isn't what happened. You'd literally be denying the text in front of you.

This is mechanical again. I really dislike this paragraph. NONE of it deals with the case at hand, and ALL of it is trying to be a generalization that applies to the dumb or scum conundrum in its entirety. You don't even refer to me, and you just say "a player" non-stop. Seriously, get out of here with your mechanical scumhunting and explain why I'M scum and what MY motivations are.

Again, this is you simply being awful at evaluating what purpose arguements serve. Everything in the argument about "would scum put themselves out there early D1" has NOTHING to do with why I think you are scum. It ONLY has to do with X1 arguing you aren't scum because you "wouldn't put yourself out there so early". I've been arguing that that is a ******** reason to clear someone because it a complete ****ing null tell. Thus, without X1's defense of you in place (due to the arguments I've presented for nullifying it), my INITIAL attacks against you (which had NOTHING to do with how early you "put yourself out there") stand up better because X1's criticism falls. Learn how to ****ing debate your moron.

Your bolded argument is completely circular and ********. I said what he did gets him attention as scum, you say "well YOU got a town read out of it, therefore your original suggestion is wrong!" - This argument could be applied to literally any scumtell. "He's only doing that scum/towntell because he knows you'll interpret it as a scum/town tell". I believe he's town because from what I know of Axel, combined with everything I've said to you makes me believe that course of action was not something Zen would choose to do as scum. Its not that hard to get.

It's not circular at all. You're just saying that because you're ****ing buttfrustrated that I'm not accepting ONLY YOUR TESTIMONY as to why "X behavior in the early game isn't scummy". In the context of this exchange, you've been a proponent of the idea that scum don't typically put themselves into the spotlight in the early game, because it draws allegedly unwanted attention and suspicion. I've been arguing that not all attention is bad, and that the VERY FACT THAT YOU ARE INTERPRETING HIS EARLY GAME VOCALNESS AS EVIDENCE OF HIM BEING TOWN, SHOWS THAT THIS IS THE ****ING CASE. The very attention he's getting right now, has convinced at least one person (you) that he is town. How the **** is that not proof that your mantra is not bulletproof? I'm not saying it necessarily implicates him being scum. I don't have to argue that far to prove you wrong, though you'd love to believe that. All I'm saying is that someone putting themselves out in the open early in the game shouldn't net them town points, because all the alleged negatives of doing so for scum that you listed off DON'T ACTUALLY ****ING EXIST IN THE MANNER YOU DESCRIBED THEM. YOU are a ****ing mitigating factor to YOUR OWN argument, because you are an example of someone who is giving a potential scum POSITIVE attention. You're strawmanning the **** out of my argument to make it look ******** when in fact it makes perfect sense. I never argued that Kantrip was TRYING to make people think he's town by being vocal early in the game as scum. What I AM arguing, is that as scum, he wouldn't necessarily be dissuaded from being vocal early in the day because of PEOPLE LIKE YOU WHO WILL JUST GIVE HIM FREE TOWN POINTS FOR BEING VOCAL FOR NO GOOD REASON.

Have you? All you said was "How is more nuanced explanation not beneficial". For a start in this case it wasn't, you managed to spend a paragraph giving a running commentary, mere observations which are no better than merely mechanically describing OS' actions.

Yes I have, and you'll need to do more than ask a rhetorical questions and throw out some general commentary to prove otherwise. I gave my observations and explained possible reasons why he was acting the way he was. I was just moving toward a deeper level of analysis of OS's actions without diving into whether it was scum or town motivated. When looking at a person's actions there are different layers of understanding those actions.

At the surface you simply have:

1.) What the person said, did, or described as their own intent/action

The next layer is:

2.) What that person was actually accomplishing by his actions/words

Which is then followed by:

3.) What alignment/role related interests did this person's actual accomplishments serve?

You're criticizing me for not being at the 3rd layer, when elucidating the 2nd layer is absolutely going to help people get a better feel for what the 3rd layer is, even if I'm not quite there myself.

Seriously are you intentionally being dense here? This is like the 10th time its been explained. Kantrip's post here: http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14279420&postcount=357 says you are playing the "OMGUS card" He doesn't mean what you say is OMGUS, he means he feels your response to him is essentially going "eh what Kant said is just OMGUS" (even though you didn't directly use the phrase

No, you are. Read my response to Kantrip in this post, or even just go back and read the ****ing exchange for real. I'd love to see you argue that my response in #346 is an OMGUS attack.

Call me tunneling all you want but one of these two needs to die, seriously. Flagrant straw manning, misrepresentation of actual facts, and at the very least inability to comprehend basic argumentative structure. We've got massive liabilities at the least, subversive scum at worst. Some help, please.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

I really think Kantip is a better pick than X1 (he's made far more telling commentary on what X1 likely is as opposed to X1 commenting on Kantrip, which has largely been a fleeting "he's probably town for flimsy meta reasons).

I'll switch to the X1 wagon is that's what people are sold on but I really think we still have enough time to give the Kantrip wagon steam.

 

[#HBC | J]

I really think Kantip is a better pick than X1 (he's made far more telling commentary on what X1 likely is as opposed to X1 commenting on Kantrip, which has largely been a fleeting "he's probably town for flimsy meta reasons).

I'll switch to the X1 wagon is that's what people are sold on but I really think we still have enough time to give the Kantrip wagon steam.

Thing is, it doesn't feel that many people are convinced of a Kanty wagon and moreso convinced of a X1 wagon because they seem to have stronger reads on that slot. If you don't want the wagon to be Vinyl for toDay, the only plausible choice that is booming is X1-12 with a possible side Rockin wagon.

 

[#HBC | marshy]

You four are the four I have the least amount on due to things in thread, having a PR hit one of those four could give more insight to those slots. The others actually have posts that can be analyzed better whereas I don't have much from you four in terms of posts. I always like hitting question marks with NAs unless I have super obv scum-reads.

youll come around >: (

 

[#HBC | J]

youll come around >: (

For your sake, right?

 

[#HBC | Dark Horse]

Vote: Kantrip

Are you going to explain this vote?

 

[Kantrip]

You're right FF. I read your posts again and couldn't find what I had described. You just discredited my arguments for being bad and not for being right after you pressured me. From our argument I've gotten a town read on you. If you wish to carry it out longer because you're not satisfied or still want to see my head on a platter I'm fine with that.

Do you think X1 and me could be scum together, considering interactions and whatnot?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

If you admit that what you said with regard to the who OMGUS thing is wrong, then there's no point in continuing arguing about it. If you have any other problems with my initial criticisms of you (i.e. why I thought you were scummy in the first place) we can discuss those but there's no reason to continue arguing about something that's been resolved.

I'd still like to see you lynched but beating a dead horse isn't the way to do that. I'm sure everyone else in this game will agree.

I doubt you two are scum together. I don't see X1 butting in to an exchange like ours to defend a scum partner this early in the game when I was really the only person pursuing you. I feel like as scum he would just let me tunnel you as long as I wanted by myself, hoping no one would take me seriously. Unless for some reason he thought his arguments would shut me up and nip my focus on you in the bud early on (which I doubt most people would believe to be the likely follow up from me), then again, I really doubt he'd stick his neck out like that for a scum mate who pulled my aggro so early in the game.

I can DEFINITELY see X1 as scum though that decided it would be a good idea to get his name on the Pro-Kantrip side of things for later in the game if and when you flip town (which he would know if he was scum). That way, it would give him a distinct avenue of attack against me later in the game, which I'm sure he would love to have knowing that I'm town if he's scum. It would give him the whole "Look at FF he's hardcore tunneling and his reads are way off, he's just trying to narrow town focus and spread FUD etc etc." type of argument. If a scum player can get all that just for defending someone who has one very loud attacker, it would be tough for a scum player to look the other way I think.

On the other hand, I can also see you as scum, and X1 being town that just wanted to get up in my grill early in the game out of distrust. X1 isn't the type of player to just roll over and cave to loud players as scum nor town. I can see him being incredibly skeptical of me and wanting to subject me to some pressure in the early game, knowing that I have extensive experience playing a wise variety of powers and alignments in mafia in general. Or maybe he's town and just wants to take digs at me for personal reasons. Or maybe he actually legitimately believes that no scum would be as vocal as you were about a controversial issue early on D1 like he's been arguing. Idk really.

Ultimately I really think there is a scum between the two of you, and either one of your flips will give me better insight in to figuring out if that's accurate or not.

 

[Kantrip]

I think your scenario with me town and X1 scum makes more sense, personally. I don't see why X1, who hasn't even bothered to react to pressure on him, would go so far out of his way to defend me just to "get up in your grill out of distrust". Doesn't seem to fit as well as him being scum, in which case he's getting A LOT MORE out of defending me.

 

[Kantrip]

I don't think that you should set up the ultimatum that "there is a scum between us". Even knowing I'm town I'm not THAT confident that X1 isn't. I've learned that these ultimatums are a bad thing (mostly through Ryker telling me to "get the **** out of here with them").

There's nothing inherently in any interactions between X1 and myself that proves that a scum is among us, and town doesn't need a double mislynch in the form of "finding which one holds the scum" when it's possible neither do.

Is it just your reads on us independently that make you think we hold a scum, or is there a reason connection-wise?

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Notice what I said. I never set an ultimatum.

"Ultimately I really think there is a scum between the two of you, and either one of your flips will give me better insight in to figuring out if that's accurate or not."

I'm not trying to set up a 1-2 lynch chain. I'm saying, I think there is scum between the two of you, thus, our chances for hitting scum between you (if I'm right) is quite high regardless of which of you that we lynch, and then afterword, knowing the flip of the first lynch, I can look back and better determine if my initial thoughts about the status of you two was accurate or not. I'm not at all saying "lynch one and if he's town lynch the other one he's auto scum".

In terms of both of you and you actions independent of one another, I'm just generally wary of you both as a result of some of the awful argumentation you put out, and the ways in which you both misrepresented exactly what I said and the nature of my arguments. In that regard, I think you're both scummy regardless of the connection between the two of you. However, the scenarios I described above still stand and do inform my read on both of you. They're just two different but related reasons why I think you're both good lynches.

 

[Kantrip]

You should NEVER have said "I really think there is a scum between the two of you", then. We are TWO independent scum reads and "either one of [our] flips" SHOULD NOT give you "better insight in to figuring out if that's accurate or not." That's grimy.

Sure, a scumflip from one would make you feel better about the other, but it doesn't work the other way around, and that's definitely what you implied with what you said. That is an ultimatum, whether you "intended a 1-2 lynch chain or not".

Out for Easter dinner, back later with comments on other slots besides the same old. I retract my FF town read and place him at null overall. He's confusing me.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Wait, why do you get to pick if you are two independent scum reads?

Because you must be the one picking if that's the case, because I never said that. I said I had scummy vibes from you each that are independent of your interactions, ON TOP OF the fact that I think there is scum between you based ON your interactions. Do you not understand that?

Why would I not say that I think there is scum between the two of you when I do in fact believe that to be the case? You're ****ing confusing me here.

And how does it not "work the other way around" in the scenario you described? One of you flipping scum would probably make me feel better about the other, yes, but why is it that one of you flipping town isn't allowed to better inform my read about the other when part of my read on you two is BASED on your interactions?

This is exactly what I'm talking about. You literally misrepresent everything I say and I can't tell if it's just because you don't read, are actually just straight up not intelligent, or are trying to make me look bad because you're scum.

 

[#HBC | J]

For goodness sake you two, you both want X1-12 lynched yet are wringing each others necks still because of wording that you both are nitpicking on. Why not just set that aside for now and work together on dealing with a common enemy of the both of ya?

 

[vanderzant]

Posting to say that scum picks are coming before the day ends. Haven't had a lot of quiet time at home, so I'm mostly caught up, but I still want to formulate my thoughts into proper arguments.

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

Sorry johns here but I didn't get back til 10AM, lol.

 

[Kantrip]

Then why didn't you tell me about the interactions that make you think there is a scum between us when I asked for it? I asked that question SPECIFICALLY and got your #618 in response. ALL you mentioned there was bad arguments coming from both of us and misrepresenting your arguments with NO MENTION to something that makes one scum reside in us. Without that, we ARE just independent scum reads, so don't give me that ****.

You're contradicting yourself here. When I say that you're setting up an ultimatum you deny that, and then you turn around to say that you DO think there are interactions that set up that ultimatum, but only AFTER I SPECIFICALLY ask for that.

My question: "Is it just your reads on us independently that make you think we hold a scum, or is there a reason connection-wise?"

Your response never answered this. You said you aren't setting up an ultimatum between us and then you tell me your reasons independent of each other. I got no reasons that connected us along with you saying you weren't setting up an ultimatum, so it was pretty natural to assume there was nothing about our interactions that gave you TvS. If there is, I want you to share that.

 

[Kantrip]

Seriously, I'm being very meticulous trying to ask questions to come to a conclusion here, and every time I think I get a conclusion you tell me to stop assuming things....

It's like pulling teeth with you, and you never pick a definitive answer.

 

[Kantrip]

Vinyl replaced Chaco, yes?

I'm not too sure about the Chaco wagon yet. I think if Chaco is scum that makes Axel more likely scum as well. Was there reasoning put out or did people just start throwing votes? It's always easier to draw connections after a lynch if people share reasoning.

 

[#HBC | J]

What gives you the Vinyl-J connection Kanty? Also there was reasoning for the Vinyl wagon, stated by KevinM twice and also re-given some more by myself. Kafka also gave some reasoning as to why we are on him.

 

[Kantrip]

Those who jumped on your idea are now on my radar. Clever, Zen.

This quote.

Chaco evidently didn't read clearly and just popped in with this comment, assuming people who were in the TA jumped on the idea. My questions would be "why would he assume this" and "why did he choose this to comment on". I feel that as scum, this may be the kind of distancing he'd attempt. There's another possibility I could kind of dig but I'm going to wait a bit on that one and see how things play out, but it involves J being town and someone else being connected with Chaco. It also involves little scum communication.

Either way, Chacoscum seems to have gotten his information about the TA from somewhere other than reading the thread, because no amount of skimming should have given him the impression that people jumped on the idea. I'll look again to verify this.

My reason for thinking this links him to Zen is... more gut than I would like.

 

[Kantrip]

@Kafk: What do you think of J's FoS on you? What is your read on J?

 

[Kantrip]

Scratch that. I just looked at the post that Chaco quoted of Zen's, and I have reason to believe it was legitimately like the only post he read at that point. You know why? Because Zen used Chaco as the example vote, and Chaco very likely namesearched to the post. Even assuming that people jumped on the TA may not be as strange, since if all he read was the post with his name in it, there was no reference as to who was in on it.

However, that doesn't account for why he called Zen clever and said the people in the TA were on his radar if he only had that one post.

 

[Kantrip]

Points against Chaco:

-Only concerned himself with mechanics and trivial things

This applies to so many people that just don't know what to be doing as town. I just can't see how I'm supposed to accept "not scumhunting" as a major scumtell on D1 against someone like Chaco.

-Came to an unusual read, putting TA members on his radar for jumping onto the idea when this never happened

He was out of town and probably only read the one post that had his name in it, so he of course made the assumption that the alliance was comprised of members who liked the idea. I do think that is the natural conclusion, and I don't see this point.

Am I missing anything, because I really don't see enough for a major wagon.

 

[#HBC | J]

I never really understood what connection you were drawing onto of Chaco-Axel. It seems to just be your last line which says its about gut.

 

[Kantrip]

It was the way Chaco said Zen was clever for a plan that Chaco didn't even know anything about. How was Chaco, someone who evidently didn't even know anything CORRECT about the TA, calling Zen clever? It didn't make sense unless Zen had explained it to Chaco in the scum quicktopic. Now I realize the potential for Chaco have namesearched, but I still don't understand why he's calling Zen clever and assuming things about the TA that were untrue.

Has Vinyl even been in here? It would be nice to have him say stuff.

 

[#HBC | J]

Points against Chaco:

-Only concerned himself with mechanics and trivial things

This applies to so many people that just don't know what to be doing as town. I just can't see how I'm supposed to accept "not scumhunting" as a major scumtell on D1 against someone like Chaco.

-Came to an unusual read, putting TA members on his radar for jumping onto the idea when this never happened

He was out of town and probably only read the one post that had his name in it, so he of course made the assumption that the alliance was comprised of members who liked the idea. I do think that is the natural conclusion, and I don't see this point.

Am I missing anything, because I really don't see enough for a major wagon.

I'm really getting confused at this defense of Chaco and your explanations for him. Major points against Chaco were that he was not scum-hunting at all but still made the effort to make armchair mafia critic posts, fluff his posts about mechanics, and not do much at all. He never adressed KevinM's main concern regarding him but instead said something along the lines of "Try harder" which made him look even worse.

Kanty, can you do a bullet list of why people should join the X1-12 wagon since you seem to be a strong advocate for it?

 

[#HBC | J]

It was the way Chaco said Zen was clever for a plan that Chaco didn't even know anything about. How was Chaco, someone who evidently didn't even know anything CORRECT about the TA, calling Zen clever? It didn't make sense unless Zen had explained it to Chaco in the scum quicktopic. Now I realize the potential for Chaco have namesearched, but I still don't understand why he's calling Zen clever and assuming things about the TA that were untrue.

Has Vinyl even been in here? It would be nice to have him say stuff.

I think you are reaching for a connection honestly at this point because this just doesn't make sense to me. He literally could be calling Zen to call him clever/somewhat buddy him. As long as their is another hypothetical that can adequately explain what could have happened, your theory goes out the window as being plausible.

No, Vinyl hasn't said anything game-relevant.

 

[Kantrip]

I think you are reaching for a connection honestly at this point because this just doesn't make sense to me. He literally could be calling Zen to call him clever/somewhat buddy him. As long as their is another hypothetical that can adequately explain what could have happened, your theory goes out the window as being plausible.

No, Vinyl hasn't said anything game-relevant.

Yeah well the namesearch thing came in and made me say nevermind. There's a reason I told you it was more gut than I'd like and left it there. You forced it out of me, so naturally it's going to seem reachy.

 

[Kantrip]

I'm really getting confused at this defense of Chaco and your explanations for him. Major points against Chaco were that he was not scum-hunting at all but still made the effort to make armchair mafia critic posts, fluff his posts about mechanics, and not do much at all. He never adressed KevinM's main concern regarding him but instead said something along the lines of "Try harder" which made him look even worse.

Kanty, can you do a bullet list of why people should join the X1-12 wagon since you seem to be a strong advocate for it?

This post right here epitomizes why you should be on the X1-12 wagon. If you think these points are enough for Chaco, why are they not enough for X1? He is practically IGNORING all the pressure on him, and I'd argue FF has given a lot more to work with than KevinM gave Chaco. The thing about X1 for me is that he replaced in for Inferno, a slot I found scummy and then he just up and left, and then X1 did nothing to remedy that. I don't feel like Chaco ever sunk that low, and your points here boil down to "he hasn't done relevant things".

 

[#HBC | J]

Alright then at 634 haha.

An argument can be made Kanty that X1-12 has done more than Chaco in terms of scum-hunting by looking at Yourself/Frozenflame constantly ever since he got into this game. Ignoring the pressure point I could give you but that would mean he is ignoring all the pressure when he has still been dealing with yourself/FF for a long time now. I really don't think that post epitomizes why people should be on X1-12.

People should be more on him due to what Inferno had done beforehand in that slot and also the fact that X1-12 has done nothing but tunnel into this battle with FF/Kanty where he hasn't come out as the victor persay. Instead, he looks worse coming out of those said arguments and actually looks scummier. It doesn't look like he is looking for scum nor doing much in terms of looking at intent, but moreso being in a battle just to be in a battle.

 

[#HBC | FrozeηFlame]

Kantrip, you're seriously like a ****ing child with no attention span. You say I haven't provided you with a reason why I think one of your two are scum based on your interactions when I LITERALLY just spelled it out for you. It's like you forget that every post other than the two above the one your about to make don't ****ing exist.

I doubt you two are scum together. I don't see X1 butting in to an exchange like ours to defend a scum partner this early in the game when I was really the only person pursuing you. I feel like as scum he would just let me tunnel you as long as I wanted by myself, hoping no one would take me seriously. Unless for some reason he thought his arguments would shut me up and nip my focus on you in the bud early on (which I doubt most people would believe to be the likely follow up from me), then again, I really doubt he'd stick his neck out like that for a scum mate who pulled my aggro so early in the game.

I can DEFINITELY see X1 as scum though that decided it would be a good idea to get his name on the Pro-Kantrip side of things for later in the game if and when you flip town (which he would know if he was scum). That way, it would give him a distinct avenue of attack against me later in the game, which I'm sure he would love to have knowing that I'm town if he's scum. It would give him the whole "Look at FF he's hardcore tunneling and his reads are way off, he's just trying to narrow town focus and spread FUD etc etc." type of argument. If a scum player can get all that just for defending someone who has one very loud attacker, it would be tough for a scum player to look the other way I think.

On the other hand, I can also see you as scum, and X1 being town that just wanted to get up in my grill early in the game out of distrust. X1 isn't the type of player to just roll over and cave to loud players as scum nor town. I can see him being incredibly skeptical of me and wanting to subject me to some pressure in the early game, knowing that I have extensive experience playing a wise variety of powers and alignments in mafia in general. Or maybe he's town and just wants to take digs at me for personal reasons. Or maybe he actually legitimately believes that no scum would be as vocal as you were about a controversial issue early on D1 like he's been arguing. Idk really.

Ultimately I really think there is a scum between the two of you, and either one of your flips will give me better insight in to figuring out if that's accurate or not.

What the hell else am I supposed to give you to explain my thoughts on the interactions between the two of you? Like we seriously JUST went over this ****.

And then you ask for more elaboration on why I think the two of you are scum independently, which I gave you here:

In terms of both of you and you actions independent of one another, I'm just generally wary of you both as a result of some of the awful argumentation you put out, and the ways in which you both misrepresented exactly what I said and the nature of my arguments. In that regard, I think you're both scummy regardless of the connection between the two of you. However, the scenarios I described above still stand and do inform my read on both of you. They're just two different but related reasons why I think you're both good lynches.

How is this NOT the answer to what you were asking for? It's seriously all right in front of you. I don't know what the **** else to tell you.

And please, stop calling it an "ultimatum" when it clearly isn't Again, I'm not setting up any If X occurs, we must do Y type plans. I'm simply stating my thoughts on how you two are related to each other read wise. Unless you can actually EXPLAIN how that's an alleged "ultimatum", stop ****ing throwing around words that you clearly don't even understand. It's really pathetic and annoying.

 

[Kantrip]

That is not what I asked for. It's half of what I asked for. The Independent part. Where's the part that connects us in such a way that one of us is likely scum?

 

[vanderzant]

*All caught up except for this last bit of FF/Kantrip back and forth.*

Right now I'd like to lynch either Kantrip/Red Ryu. Don't support the X1 wagon. Would support the Chaco/Rockin wagon if needed, but they're secondary choices to me at this stage.

Didn't like the weird omgus from Kantrip in this post.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14278660&postcount=341

He's trying to "gambit" a reaction out of FF… by not responding to what he said and voting him. Despite this not being a very smart way to go about garnering a read, his basis for FF scum also seems to be that he's using curse words and that his anger seems misplaced…. yeah.

What do you mean also? I got a town read on KevinM (it was KevinM right?) when he defended FF, because I don't see KevinM outright supporting FF like that as scummates. With Joey, I really don't know what his intent was. All he was doing was pointing out a mistake made in interpretation, and so I can see town intent in his actions. He should have let me respond for the sake of others reading me, but what he did certainly wasn't scummy.

Here he's trying to clear KevinM… on the basis that FF is scum and he wouldn't defend FF if they were scumbuddies. Oddly enough, he later admits he didn't really have a read on FF at the time, and was trying to read FF through reactions (quote below). So why is he adopting a Town read on KevinM which is totally dependent on a scum read which he admits he didn't have in the first place?

I'm not very motivated to read through walls at this time, I'll be honest. My goal throughout my interaction with FF has been to get involved in a back-and-forth so people could read the two of us, and so I could see how FF reacted. While my initial points were not very strong, I did mean for them to have at least SOME backing with which I could make a pressure vote that actually motivated a response.

Looks like back-pedalling to me.

Here he's calling RR out on being careful with his responses.

Overall he's pushed things in a weird manner and I'd be fine with lynching him.

Onto Red Ryu, and he's someone I'd like to look more into, his reads in this post are surprisingly shallow for such a large catch up. Talks mostly about the Town Alliance, but doesn't get any strong reads out of it other then a slight scum intent from Kantrip, slight dislikes of Marshy/Chaco and s slight town lean on Axel. He then discusses the major wagons:

X1 - This is warranted Inferno's earlier posts had some repeated questions I couldn't see where he was going with it or his suspicion. Even then, looking at his vote on Joey, which is really bad btw, X1 hasn't change my opinion of the slot, but it could need to look closer at his more recent posts.

Joey - This seems unwarrented to me, I don't see what he has done this game that warrants votes at this time. Even more so over other posters in this game. Someone should make a case or something or I on;t get this one.

Frozenflame - Seems like a reach from the voters on him, I dislike this wagon.

Rockin - There is merit to this one, when I explain the whole what a hows it do it stuff from the Axel reactions I saw his posts to it and actions around it to be rather, "too perfect" in a sense.

I don't like Chaco or Marshy but those are less trustworthy since I could chalk it up to being inactive/not posting fully in a sense.

Overall a lot of talk for not much content. Says the votes on X1 are warranted, however he needs to look closer.

Man PL v Joey looks TvT the more they flesh it out from both sides.

@Swords/Kuz hydra: Can you tell me what makes you think makes it scum of Chaco and OS over lazy with how they have been scum hunting this game? I could see it as either way from what you pointed out.

Here he's not pushing strongly on anything at all. Considering he earlier said that the X1/Rockin wagons had merit, he hasn't followed up or showed intent to pursue either wagon.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14289901&postcount=479
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14289907&postcount=480
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14290075&postcount=484

Linking to save space, but posts talking about game theory send off red flags to me, because its argument for the sake of argument as opposed to pressuring someone to get a read.

So I'm scummy for not scum hunting? Kafk, all you're doing is reaching. If you can prove me otherwise I'd love to see it. Kevin, you have nothing, once again other than I haven't been posting my reads. Oh, big surprise there. That's just ****ing stupid.

And I haven't even caught up, I've been at work every day since I've been back. So, guess what I'm doing now? Apparently people forget this running I work a **** ton on top of school. It takes me a minute sometimes. Jesus.

Quoted this for just standing out as a massive overreaction I don't like.

(@Vandy: Explanation for why you liked Inferno/X1 earlier on will need to be explained, especially with how this game is going

For the inferno slot, I like that he challenged DH on the TA idea, because frankly it was a pretty bad idea and no one other than Zen should really have had reason to go along with it as a gambit. At the time I didn't like DH for going along with it like he was, and I probably would of spoke out about it if I was in the game. Also, I liked his vote on RR. I like X1 recently, his posts have been fine and I haven't read scum intent into his posts, and I think the wagon on him is mostly a bad wagon that's carried over from Inferno's play.

---

Nothing else has really stood out to me. Couple people I like but don't feel like going into much detail on it.

Some questions:

@Frozen: In reading your back & forths with X1/Kantrip w.r.t Axel, I never fully understood your stance on the Axel (now J) slot itself. Are you suggesting that their intentions with the TA stuff is scummy, or merely that we shouldn't adopt a Town stance on them because they're throwing themselves out there? Could you clarify this please?

@X1: On a similar note in your #461 you ask Frozen if he really thinks Axel is scum who wanted some more influence over town by trying to form an alliance?" Do you think this is the only motivation a scumAxel might have for putting himself out there like he did? And if not, explain why he wouldn't potentially do what he did as scum.

 

[vanderzant]

Vote: Kantrip