Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Kooky Koopa]

Oh. My. God. I am getting so frustrated with Sonic. How in the hell does Bowser beat Sonic?? His moves are so difficult to read, they all look the same. I can't even remember the last time I've beaten a Sonic player in For Glory. I get so frustrated after a few annoying losses to Sonic, I usually just turn the game off.

When fighting Sonic, you need to be very, very patient and reactive. If you try to attack him prematurely, you're going to get punished and take big damage.

Most FG Sonics use three spins, his down-b (spin charge) and side-b (spin-dash) on the ground and his neutral b in the air. His neutral b will see him slightly rise up into the air before slamming into you where the other two spins are started from the ground.

The two most important things you can do in this MU are walking and jab. Attempting to rush down Sonic as Bowser, at least in the opening phase, is asking to get punished and leaves your options limited. Walk towards him and see how he responds. If you are not confident enough that you can attack him, prepare to shield an incoming spin. Your main tools in the neutral are jab, OoS up-b, spaced fire breath (situational and timing needs to be sharp) and spaced f-airs.

Assuming you're fighting your typical Sonic, jab is normally quick enough to clank with the down-b/side-b ground spins and to follow up with another jab to damage him. Jab is also normally quick enough to stop a Sonic from dash grabbing you, stopping his approach dead. If you're close to Sonic, an aggressive grounded up-b can outright beat his spin if he doesn't release it soon enough or worst case clank as well. If you're having trouble catching his spin with your jab, walk towards him and prepare to shield his spin. Once he goes through your shield you should either have an opening to f-air him if he jumps or to close the distance on the ground.

His air-spin (homing attack) can be punished through a grounded up-b or an u-smash. A nice idea is to count to 1 if you're charging an u-smash, then let go of the button just as he comes crashing into you. Homing attack is going to come from above you and Bowser has a very open window to counter attack Sonic from there.

Otherwise always remain patient and walk towards Sonic as it means you can jab, shield, d-tilt (if your timing is spot on), up-b or even just jump out of the way. Running at him means your only options are to shield or dash attack or jump, leaving very little room to defend yourself if you mistime a reaction.

Hope this helps.

 

[Jerodak]

Don't forget the spin dash, which is the side b spin which is often done in the air and on the ground. This one id probably the most annoying, it's the one where sonic will spin into you then jump up into the air to combo into aerials on hit and so on. Unlike the down b spin, you won't be able to hit sonic out of it because he will just clank with you. Clanking can be risky, but if you do clank with him, try to keep him at max jab or max Ftilt range. This way, he shouldn't be able to just mash out jabs or grabs to hit you for free.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I think you guys need a refresher for Sonic's terminology. Neutral B is the homing attack, Side B is Spin Dash, Down B is Spin Charge. Spin Shot is an advanced technique that can be performed with both of the moves. While Side B and Down B may look functionally similar, Side B is the one that's constantly being used because of its greater utility, namely how you can cancel the charge into shield (and then into all of shield's options) if you're being pressured during windup.

I felt the need to correct your names because Spin Shot - Actual Spin Shot is terrifying when performed by a good player. Sonic's crummy aerials are suddenly good, you can forget about zoning him out if he can move that fast on the ground and in the air.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Zapp Branniglenn

Whoops, amended.

Edit: Surprised no one mentioned this sooner, but according to the Lucas trailer, seems like Bowser wins that Ness match-up quite handily.

 

[33percentgod]

I am a complete loss with this match up. I have ZERO ability to beat a proficient Link. I just got beaten 8 - 0 by a good Link and I STILL can't figure out how to fight this character. At one point I went from 0 damage to almost 70% just trying to get on the ledge. If I went high, he would have the sword upward, if I went low, the sword down, and then just constantly projectiles in between. I literally had no option to get on the ledge (Bowser Bomb doesn't work against the sword upward.) You stay back and you just get spammed to death in a way that rivals Japanese bullet-hell games. You approach and the quickness of his moves and range of the sword gives you no way to survive.

Yoshi and DDD give me issues, but nowhere NEAR Link. When I fight against a good Link I feel like the game is broken or something, that I have no way to even land a move.

Any tips on what to do with this match up? Because it's been months now and I'm still at a loss.

 

[Bearbuddy4]

Sonic gives me the most issues. If I see sonic, i SD, I can beat moderate links now you just rush down , shield , run, shield, run then grab. because they usually shield when you get to them. you can also up-b their asses when you get to them instead of a grab. A third and even better option is to do the command grab(sideB) on them once you get close, since they like to shield.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I also find Link to be one of the worst MUs for Bowser. Still not as bad as Shiek, but up there with runner-ups like Pikachu and Fox. Perfect shielding absolutely breaks Link's projectile wall (save for bombs, they bounce off and explode on the ground in front of you, forcing you to halt your approach), but getting perfect shields consistently is not easy. And if you flub them while close to Link, you lose the frame advantage you would have had after making the effort to get there. Dealing with Link is easier on small stages where he doesn't have room to retreat or safely fire arrows and pull out bombs. Platforms are also nice because they allow you to approach non linearly with more success. Basically, if you're on FD, you're always forced to approach from his front or above. If you're on Battlefield, he has to be smarter about his moves in order to wall you out.

Bowser being heavy is an issue regarding Link's Fsmash. It's much harder for us to jump out before the second hit. And our multihit fortress recovery provides no protection against Link's Dair, which stays active for 40 frames. Fire breath will cancel out incoming arrows and the boomerang, but not bombs.

Once you do get to Link, he's in trouble. Our grab and flying slam wreck his slower grab. And his moves are comparably slow to ours for much less damage and knockback. We can also edgeguard reasonably well. His recovery is poop, so a single Fair should mean a stock.

 

[Volimutt]

Make the most use out of power shield as you can and just play smart. Running back and forth using Jab 1 a lot.

 

[ROOOOY!]

Pretty much what Zapp said, learn what Sonic can and can't do with regards to his spins and you'll do better. I play the match up from both sides and find it fun from both sides. Maybe I'm weird.

When charging a spin, if Sonic slides back slightly that is a spin dash (side b). This one can be shield cancelled, and is probably going to be used more against characters like Bowser because its the safer option. If you camp in your shield with this one, the spin is going to be shield cancelled, Bowser gets grabbed, and you're in a whole world of ****. Best thing to do is probably...nothing lol. Sonics are going to wait for a reaction and punish it. If they do commit and spin towards you, which a sonic who isn't a generic for glory scrub isn't going to do too often, you can beat it out with practically everything. Hell you can even grab him out of it. You can also spinshot out of a grounded side b (not down b) so if you see them go aerial expect a cross up bair or a fair or something. A retreating fair from Bowser works quite well, just react accordingly to which option they go for.

Down b stays in place whilst charging. This one you can pretty much hold your shield up because they can't shield cancel it. Options are kinda limited out of it, Sonic either spinspins at Bowser (BAD) but he can jump out of the charge. It carries a hitbox for a while, and Sonic can use aerials after the jump hitbox goes. None of Sonics aerials are particularly safe on shield so you can get a shield grab or whatever. As soon as any spin hits your shield Bowser has a good enough OoS game, specially up b, to make the sonic act less scrubby.

Tl;Dr Sonics spins are literally his worst approach and good sonics will limit them. Be patient, don't throw out attacks in hope or Bowser'll die.

 

[Shiny_Rayquaza]

I also find Link to be one of the worst MUs for Bowser. Still not as bad as Shiek, but up there with runner-ups like Pikachu and Fox. Perfect shielding absolutely breaks Link's projectile wall (save for bombs, they bounce off and explode on the ground in front of you, forcing you to halt your approach), but getting perfect shields consistently is not easy. And if you flub them while close to Link, you lose the frame advantage you would have had after making the effort to get there. Dealing with Link is easier on small stages where he doesn't have room to retreat or safely fire arrows and pull out bombs. Platforms are also nice because they allow you to approach non linearly with more success. Basically, if you're on FD, you're always forced to approach from his front or above. If you're on Battlefield, he has to be smarter about his moves in order to wall you out.

Bowser being heavy is an issue regarding Link's Fsmash. It's much harder for us to jump out before the second hit. And our multihit fortress recovery provides no protection against Link's Dair, which stays active for 40 frames. Fire breath will cancel out incoming arrows and the boomerang, but not bombs.

Once you do get to Link, he's in trouble. Our grab and flying slam wreck his slower grab. And his moves are comparably slow to ours for much less damage and knockback. We can also edgeguard reasonably well. His recovery is poop, so a single Fair should mean a stock.

Holy crap did I have to deal with this today. I had my first tournament in about 6 years and I came up against a Link. My shield game was on point though so I kind of just charged my way up to him and beat the living daylights out of him.

Since I pretty much never get to play higher leveled players I have extreme trouble with dealing with characters that can get to me repeatedly. I got 3rd in the tournament(double elimination) but got shut down in the winner's bracket by a Marth (he won the tournament) and then when I made it to the last round of the loser's bracket to face off against that Marth again I got beaten out by a Capt. Falcon (but nowhere near as badly as the Marth).

I was just being incredibly stupid against the Falcon though. I had to wait forever between my matches and got sloppy. I stopped doing jab 1 where I should have and accidentally missed the ledge with a down+B.



Basically long story short, when I'm the one getting rushed at and I'm repeatedly losing it, what on earth do I do? I tried to mix it up as much as I could with Whirling Foretresses OoS as I could but once the pain train got going I just got tossed all over the place.

 

[Zigsta]

If you're getting rushed down, go for more Firebreath, pivot grabs, and Bowser Bomb. Don't forget that your opponent is doing you a favor by coming TO you. Recognize what kind of approach they favor and counterattack accordingly.

 

[Odaroloc]

This could go in a MU thread, but I feel like it won't reach as many Bowsers out there. I'm just here to give my two cents on how to deal with spammy characters. A lot of people ask about them, and I'm just here to contribute. I have only been in 2 local tournaments, and I played as ZZS. My secondary is Bowser, though. I play him quite a bit in FG, and I have a 76% WR with him (from 500 matches).

NOTE: The sections I talk about are against predictable SPAMMY players. They usually react the same way, which is why they're predictable. If you have trouble with these guys, read on. It might help. But it won't in every situation, especially against players that switch up their tactics.

Let's start with the start

The first and foremost thing a spammy character will do is use their specials at the start of a match. They won't run in because they want to keep their distance. To stop these predictable people, run towards them. You want to powershield as much as possible, but hold the shield any time you think you'll be hit by a projectile (better safe than sorry). If you aren't getting shields down, speedwalk instead. Find a comfortable pace where you can avoid their attacks. Once you're close enough, dash and SH into your neutral b. This is your best defense against projectiles. If you spaced the jump properly, they will either attempt to shield or roll toward you. You'd be surprised at how often people don't jump over Bowser. If they roll toward you, you'll get to rack up a bit of % until the flames subside. If they shield, use b until the fire won't hit them in order to lower their shield.

After the First Exchange

At this point, the player will try to jab. Once you are done with the fire, shield. I have played hundreds of matches in FG as Bowser, and they rarely grab. Sometimes they retreat to the other side to continue spamming, but most try to roll past you and jab. Usually this is where the game will take several different paths, so I can't go into too much detail for it.

Use Jab as a way to tell them to F**K Off

People underestimate Bowser's jab. It racks up damage insanely well, and it's one of your best tools at your disposal. Don't spam it (like the annoying people you're playing against); apply pressure.

Other options

Use your upB if your opponent rolls into you a lot. It's easier to hit them with than a dsmash.

Tilts are amazing for Bowser. Utilt is something I've relied on more recently. If they roll behind you, use utilt (facing away from them) and you'll usually hit them. You should already be using ftilt, so I won't talk about it.

Use nair every now and then as it can rack up to 20% in 1 attack (that's rare, though)

Final Thoughts

I know that players can adapt differently, but I keep facing these spammers, and they keep doing the same god damn thing. If they're that predictable for me, I feel like they would be for you guys.

Bowser is the Koopa King. He's a boss. Mainly, he's a punisher. You need to be able to read your opponent. Within the first few exchanges, note how often they dodge, and in which direction. If they play defense, they won't try to counter an attack from you. If they're aggressive, they will. Players that constantly dodge are the ones you should be happy to face. You can land your dropkicks much easier if you know where they're going to roll.

AGAIN: This is help players that are struggling against spammy players, not the ones that switch up their game like the rest of us.

 

[Odaroloc]

Also, don't rely on fsmash as much. Use Usmash much more often as it will save you from retaliation.

 

[arcticfox_14]

I played a match against a Charizard recently and my fire breath stopped his flare blitz. I recall it going straight through before the update. Was these a change to the amount of its armor that enables us to stop it with fire breath now, or was my experience just a fluke? I'll test tonight with a friend, but I'm at work now and wanted to make sure it wasn't already common knowledge.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I played a match against a Charizard recently and my fire breath stopped his flare blitz. I recall it going straight through before the update. Was these a change to the amount of its armor that enables us to stop it with fire breath now, or was my experience just a fluke? I'll test tonight with a friend, but I'm at work now and wanted to make sure it wasn't already common knowledge.

Flare Blitz is not a multihitting move, it's one single, strong hit when he collides with something. Fire breath however is unlike most projectiles in that it will continue to move past something it collides with. And each flame is its own hitbox.

Basically what happened is that Charizard bumped into one of the Fire breath's hitboxes, and incoming flames after that burned Charizard. A similar effect happens when you try and flame a move like Fox's UpB. The first flame clanks with the move, nullifiying Fox's hitbox, and the next flame will make him flinch since he's got no more protection.

 

[arcticfox_14]

Flare Blitz is not a multihitting move, it's one single, strong hit when he collides with something. Fire breath however is unlike most projectiles in that it will continue to move past something it collides with. And each flame is its own hitbox.

Basically what happened is that Charizard bumped into one of the Fire breath's hitboxes, and incoming flames after that burned Charizard. A similar effect happens when you try and flame a move like Fox's UpB. The first flame clanks with the move, nullifiying Fox's hitbox, and the next flame will make him flinch since he's got no more protection.

I understand the theory, but in my experience (in this case mostly 2v2 FG with a friend) flare blitz always slowed down, plowing through hitbox after hitbox before finally crashing into me. Similar to how a gordo reacts to fire breath, I suppose. I guess I'll look into it tonight.

EDIT: So I'm not sure what determines when this works and when it doesn't. Whether or not Charizard barrels through the flames or gets interrupted and burnt himself could be dependent on the spacing, how fresh the fire breath is, or even what percent Charizard is at. This is the result of a very rigorous 5 minutes of testing.

I guess I was just initially surprised by the fact that flame breath can ever stop flare blitz at all, but it's so fickle I don't think it affects the matchup strategy at all.

 

[MrEh]

It's kind of unnecessary since shielding basically stops Flare Blitz and is a faster option in the first place.

 

[Zigsta]

It's kind of unnecessary since shielding basically stops Flare Blitz and is a faster option in the first place.

You can also shield and then fsmash Charizard. That's how awful the lag on Flare Blitz is.

Also, random Samus tip: Her fsmash is sooo insanely slow that Bowser can roll into her and get off Fortress before she can do anything about it. If you predict a fsmash, roll into her and Fortress. It's stupid easy.

 

[ZTD | TECHnology]

I understand the theory, but in my experience (in this case mostly 2v2 FG with a friend) flare blitz always slowed down, plowing through hitbox after hitbox before finally crashing into me. Similar to how a gordo reacts to fire breath, I suppose. I guess I'll look into it tonight.

EDIT: So I'm not sure what determines when this works and when it doesn't. Whether or not Charizard barrels through the flames or gets interrupted and burnt himself could be dependent on the spacing, how fresh the fire breath is, or even what percent Charizard is at. This is the result of a very rigorous 5 minutes of testing.

I guess I was just initially surprised by the fact that flame breath can ever stop flare blitz at all, but it's so fickle I don't think it affects the matchup strategy at all.

Flare Blitz doesn't have armor on the entire move. Just like the first 70% of the move. Afterwards, it's just a hitbox that can be easily stopped.

 

[B!squick]

How's the MewTwo match up? Anyone know or care to guess?

 

[MagiusNecros]

How's the MewTwo match up? Anyone know or care to guess?

On one hand you are big and hard to kill and Mewtwo is light and easy to kill.

On the other hand he can pressure with shadow ball and probably make good use of confusion and disable.

I will say Mewtwo does not appreciate shield breaks. Since a uncharged fsmash will kill him at 40% at the edge.

 

[Karsticles]

How's the MewTwo match up? Anyone know or care to guess?

My Mewtwo doesn't have problems with Bowser.
My Bowser doesn't have problems with Mewtwo.

idklol

 

[Meowser]

They are both best utilized as passive-aggressively punishers. I'd say Mewtwo has the advantage of a solid ranged tool that forces Bowser to approach, but Bowser has the statistical advantage MagiusNecros already mentioned. Bowser has the technical advantage, but Mewtwo has the higher ground. It's the Bowsers skill at offensive pressure game vs the Mewtwos ability to not get pressured into a bad setup. Given how difficult it is for Mewtwo to take out Bowser without taking much damage himself, I'd wager Bowser is at an overall advantage.

That's just my limited experience from tons of Bowser/Mewtwo duels vs lv9 AI, both ways - they are my two mains. How big or small that advantage would be, I can't judge from my scrub-level skill tier.

 

[Odaroloc]

Sadly, I've only faced one decent Mewtwo, and he pretty much mastered disable, which threw me off. Most Mewtwos I play online against can't control their floatiness, and I can easily punish as Bowser with an appropriate aerial. I really want to say this is 50-50 because Mewtwo can chain combos with relative ease since Bowser is large and heavy. Conversely, Bowser's punish game against Mewtwo's predictable air moves allows him to throw in some heavy damage. Like I said before, I haven't played many decent Mewtwos, so this is a matchup I'm still figuring out.

 

[Hitman JT]

dies in like two hits

And he doesn't have the agility to stay away from and avoid taking those two hits

 

[Cassius.]

Yeah I'm not sure why people are saying this MU is anywhere near 50-50

he's way too big to be so light. and he has a teleport recovery with no hitbox on it. Do you guys know what Bowser does to those?

Yes, Bowser gets combo'd. He does in 90% of the match ups in this game. Mewtwo has nothing that's extremely pivotal for him in this match-up.

 

[Odaroloc]

Yeah I'm not sure why people are saying this MU is anywhere near 50-50

he's way too big to be so light. and he has a teleport recovery with no hitbox on it. Do you guys know what Bowser does to those?

Yes, Bowser gets combo'd. He does in 90% of the match ups in this game. Mewtwo has nothing that's extremely pivotal for him in this match-up.

I know where you're coming from, and I definitely agree that Mewtwo has a predictable nature that Bowser needs to win. However, if the Mewtwo knows the range of his attacks and utlitizes his tilt game, he has a much better chance at keeping Bowser at bay. His Usmash can be devastating. Like I said in a previous post, I have only faced a few Mewtwo's that beat me, but the ones I beat were from people that clearly don't understand Mewtwo's playstyle, so I can't tell at the moment who is better.

 

[S_B]

I thought they had buffed dsmash because M2s were dying to it at 90%.

Nope, he's just THAT light...

It would make more sense if he was a bird pokemon that had hollow bones or something...

 

[Ffamran]

Different time, different planet, and I'm sti- Wait. Where's Fox? Hey! This ain't Dinosaur Planet! Stupid, broken nav system... Mario? Who?! I don't know who you're talkin' about, but I'm gonna whoop your butt!

Greetings, scaly overlords and overladies! The Falco boards started their Bowser matchup discussion and I better see @Xadrin there since he's always fighting with @zCyRo.

The discussion's ongoing, so drop in... Er... Don't drop in, we don't want stuff to be broken by Bowser's Butt Bomb. Do something that doesn't involve wanton destruction. Link to the discussion: http://smashboards.com/threads/ssb4-falco-matchup-discussion-30-bowser-star-falco-adventures.401358/.

And if you want to avenge Xadrin spar with the Falco players, head over here: http://smashboards.com/threads/anyone-want-to-exchange-nnids-or-friend-codes.386513/.

 

[Big Sean]

ninjalink just went through all the characters and found ways to defeat custom villager. Interestingly he found that a well timed dair will beat a regrabbing villager at 30%. It's not super easy, but you can miss like 20 times and still get the stock first. I think this shuts down a huge part of the villager camp strategy: http://www.twitch.tv/ninjalink/b/658298958

 

[arcticfox_14]

ninjalink just went through all the characters and found ways to defeat custom villager. Interestingly he found that a well timed dair will beat a regrabbing villager at 30%. It's not super easy, but you can miss like 20 times and still get the stock first. I think this shuts down a huge part of the villager camp strategy: http://www.twitch.tv/ninjalink/b/658298958

For those curious, the testing starts around the 1:06:30 mark.

 

[MrEh]

lol I hear DarkMusician helping Ninjalink.

He's a Hawaii bro.

 

[Big Sean]

lol I hear DarkMusician helping Ninjalink.

He's a Hawaii bro.

They actually mention a you a few times by name on the stream. Saying things like "Person 1: do any of the b moves have autoguard?" "Person2: I don't know, i'm not Mr. Eh"

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yeah, short hop Dair at the ledge was how I dealt with non-customs villager. The way they simply hopped up with Fair and regrabbed the edge. Perfect Shielding the projectile and then Dtilting their regrab also got them off the ledge if you can't space with Dair in time. I'm still worried about the trip plant on the ground. Since we're a character that hates to jump over obstacles. And a good placement at the ledge will remove our capability to shorthop Dair at the ledge and shield incoming balloons. We would only be able to get the late hit of Dair on him, or a Bomb.

But don't fight villager on Smashville. I don't think Bowser gets a single thing out of that stage without Dash Slash. The platform will block short hop Dair and Bowser Bomb for a good portion of your match. While doing both options at the ledge at Battlefield won't result in a platform interrupting you. There's a similar issue with Town and City, but that stage has a low ceiling, letting us kill earlier with several of our most common kill moves. Usmash, Flying Slam onto the platforms, and Bowser Bomb.

Edit: Watched them try out Bowser's customs to see if they break the match with custom villager. I like that they took a four second look at Fire Shot and said "Useless."

 

[DavemanCozy]

Bowser vs Fox is being discussed at the Fox boards;
vs

Click here to tell us if the King of Koopas wins or the Wily Fox outmaneuvers him.

 

[anaglyphix]

So yeah, mewtwos are constantly wrecking me. advice?

 

[bendy zebra]

I know the R.O.B. matchup has been discussed, but I'm particularly curious about the beep-boop. It doesn't seem to matter how I DI/SDI/air-dodge, barring human error it looks to be a guaranteed combo/kill option against Bowser. Is there anything we can do once we're grabbed/thrown?

 

[anaglyphix]

@ bendy zebra I haven't tested this on rob yet, but I can pretty easily get out of mario's endless utilt combo by DIing sideways and dairing. The move starts up fairly fast, so you might be able to catch him with it.

 

[trombonophone99]

@ bendy zebra I haven't tested this on rob yet, but I can pretty easily get out of mario's endless utilt combo by DIing sideways and dairing. The move starts up fairly fast, so you might be able to catch him with it.

When you say DI sideways, do you mean towards Mario's front or back?

 

[anaglyphix]

towards his back.