Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Zog]

How do you beat Captain Falcon? I play against my brother who mains Captain Falcon, and I lose consistently as Bowser, but do about 50/50 as Greninja. What are some tips or options for the Captain Falcon matchup?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

How do you beat Captain Falcon? I play against my brother who mains Captain Falcon, and I lose consistently as Bowser, but do about 50/50 as Greninja. What are some tips or options for the Captain Falcon matchup?

Ack, every time I try to picture the Falcon MU, all I can think of are his nasty offstage moves. Dair, Bair, Fair, Up B to stage spike me under Smashville, etc. Bowser's fortress is slow and doesn't afford a lot of protection when recovering. This weakness makes Bowser have to try to maintain center stage as much as you can. That sort of positioning also lets you take the most advantage of his heavy weight. It's unfortunate that Falcon's dash grab will slide the both of you so far.

Falcon's speed lets him engage from far distances in just a few moments. In general, I've always preferred small stage choices like Battlefield so that Bowser's long reach on his attacks shine, but since we want to spend as little time offstage as possible, maybe FD will help us keep up with him easier. You'll only really have to worry about him coming at you from a horizontal position. And since Falcon lacks a projectile, he won't use the long distance of the stage to throw crap at you. Another reason why Battlefield is unnecesary. Jabs, OoS Fortress, and Fire breath should help keep him off of us. And our own approaches should prove to be formidable as well.

 

[MrEh]

To be fair, Palutena will probably not be using Ftilt in neutral footsie situations. (kind of like Bowser, ha)

Jabs clanking will happen OFTEN though.

 

[Jerodak]

To be fair, Palutena will probably not be using Ftilt in neutral footsie situations. (kind of like Bowser, ha)

Jabs clanking will happen OFTEN though.

Yeah, her Ftilt is so slow and risky to use, but the jab clanks are much more likely, I might look into clanking vs more characters to see what Bowser's options look like in other clank scenarios. I feel like Bowser might be able to take advantage of clanks, especially on characters with less range, since he could probably just stand there and wait. Seeing if Ftilt puts other characters at disadvantage of of jab clanks might also be worth looking into. As always, I'll continue poking around in the lab to see what else I can uncover. There are quite a few ideas that I'm currently working on, so we'll see what happens!

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Zog Here are some general questions:

- Are you saving your double jump so you can use it to avoid follow-ups or improve your off-stage recovery chance?
- Are you watching what your brother does when he thinks he sees an opening and figuring out when he likes to go in?
- Are you edge guarding with dtilt, fortress (semi-spike), or ledge canceled bowser bomb to properly close out stocks?
- Are you making sure to include pivot grab/ftilt in your game-plan?
- Are you making sure to use jab 1 by itself to hit confirm and wall dash grabs?
​

The thing to keep in mind is that you have the tools to fight , but he has the offensive power and priority to shut you down if you guess incorrectly. The reason why you're not going to get a clear-cut answer is because our angle of approach largely depends on what tries to go for at any given moment.

 

[Hitman JT]

I probably use pivot f-tilts and fire breath more in vs. than in any other match-up because of how hard he wants to go in. I'd pivot grab more but his dash attack has active frames that make envious. If you throw him off-stage, he can't do much about fire breath so do that.

 

[Zog]

Thanks for the comments everyone.
@ UltimaLuminaire Let me answer these.
1. Yea I try to save my double jump, I still find it very hard to land due to falcons incredible speed.
2. Not as much as I should. I will definitely keep an eye out for that now.
3. Yes for bomb and d-tilt, but I'm not sure what you mean using fortress as a semi spike.
4. This one I definitely do. I pivot f-tilt and pivot grab all the time, perhaps I'm not doing it optimally. What are the best times or ways to utilize these options?
5. I have a bad habit of just doing jab1, jab 2 as a habit. I will work on this for sure

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ UltimaLuminaire 3. Yes for bomb and d-tilt, but I'm not sure what you mean using fortress as a semi spike.
4. This one I definitely do. I pivot f-tilt and pivot grab all the time, perhaps I'm not doing it optimally. What are the best times or ways to utilize these options?

When uses Raptor Boost to reach the ledge, his hand is vulnerable and can extend up into the fortress' lower hit box, which sends opponents diagonally down. You can nail him with this if he tries to recover low to avoid your other edge-guard options. You could also attempt to run-off Bair, but that's your call.

The best times to utilize pivots are when your opponent uses a zone-breaker or attempts to reposition. This includes things like dash attack, Falcon Kick, and rolling. Consider this a mix-up to just using your shield or jab 1. It's a tool used to round-out your arsenal against over-aggressive positioning.

 

[Hitman JT]

Someone give me a write-up on vs. . No one I know uses this character, but the few I run into online are really bloody annoying. He's like Sheik in that he doesn't know the meaning of respect; he can press as many buttons as he wants to because of the ridiculous start-up speed and active frames. The fact that is always happy and smiling while fighting makes me want to snap his neck.
...Does he even have a neck?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Hitman JT I love Wonderful 101 so props for the Wonder Red waifu.
I have a friend that mains so I can give my 2 cents on the MU.

If you respect their ground and air game, you're already a step ahead of the curve. Their smashes, and aerials have amazing priority, head invincibility (seriously, it's worse than Mario) and vicious follow-ups. Their jab is also just straight up amazing and forces you to back off if your jab clanks. The fact that is heavy is just icing on the cake for your opponent. It will feel a lot like the MU because you just can't challenge your opponent's spacing whenever you want. It'll depend on when and how your opponent wishes to close in (after throwing eggs).

In this MU, the clincher will always be how you handle the eggs. If you can power walk your way through, you have to deal with a 50-50. You need to predict whether Yoshi will throw another egg or dash in for a dash grab. If you guess correctly, even though your opponent is a fellow heavy, you'll most likely knock them out of the neutral and gain a huge advantage. Same goes for you if you fail and get grabbed -> follow-up. If you're caught in the air, you'll need to figure out the timing for getting passed the eggs. This can be stupidly difficult since Yoshi can dictate your window of opportunity to a greater degree than other projectile users. The timing will be radically different based on the player and their preferences, so it's a learning experience every time.

Mess around with flame breath. It'll eat through eggs and you can test out the spacing you prefer to be in for this MU. As long as you can remain in your groove, you will definitely be able to use all the standard tools to knock out of the neutral and force them into a heavy disadvantage. If you can master your edge-guard, that's your time to shine.

 

[Zigsta]

I do a lot of running back and forth against Yoshi to see if he's camp happy or fair happy. Eggs are super easy to power shield in this game, and fair's not bad with practice. I used to find fair bodied me and led to silly Yoshi strings, but locking down his fair makes it a lot harder for him to start gaining momentum.

 

[MrEh]

Fair is one of the easiest things to pivot grab in this game because Yoshi's hurtbox extends disproportionately far.

 

[Jerodak]

Spoiler

@TrootOrDair

One thing to consider about Yoshi's eggs is that he cannot perform an action until around when the egg pops on it's own. It helps to keep this in mind, especially if Yoshi is in the air. If you predict the throw, you can just run past where the egg would hit and get an easy aerial. It's good to always be in a good position where you can punish an aerial egg toss, since it can lead to easy Bairs and other nice things. On the ground it's the same story, the lag is still awul, so learning how late/far you can shield the egg at various arcs while still getting a safe advance will be important when he's trying to zone you out, and of course mixing in some jumps to make Yoshi think about the anti-air option is good too. If Yoshi ever throws an egg high while you're on the ground, then you've been given one of the easiest and safest approaches in the game, make sure you're spaced appropriately to get in quick if this ever happens. If Yoshi tries to recover low with an Egg, Dair can plow through an egg easy, see if you can get the spike if he does this close enough to the ledge. If yoshi is mashing jabs on shield, which is an incredibly common thing in my experience, you can punish in between them with any frame 10 option OOS (Or frame 17 if we're adding the release frames.) so Dtilt, Dsmash, Ftilt, or anything faster than that will hit a Jab-happy Yoshi before he can hit you.

Edit: Here's something I should probably specify, when dealing with a jab-happy Yoshi, if you're going for any punish options then only attempt to punish after a jab 2. Those punishes will work before Yoshi can start another jab combo. That's probably obvious for most players, but someone who is new might get the wrong idea; just making sure.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

Hey all

I've recently been having major trouble against ROBS. I got my shielding down, generally, but the biggest issue is what to do when the gap is closed.

I guess I'll break it down into a few questions.

1. The rolls. ROB is so quick and harder to catch than Link, not to mention the speed he can act out of them. When trying to go after him I try to do dash grabs but naturally that doesn't seem to work and he either rolls away or does his d-smash or tilt/spin attack to get me off him. When ROB is on the retreat what do I do?

2. Even if I get through his lasers and gyro, Rob has so many options to engage Bowser in melee. He either does his tornado spin which, at that point, I'm too close and get smacked around, grabs me or rolls into me and does a d-smash. Sure I got options for each one individually, but it's really hard to predict and just turns my favourable position into his. How can I maintain pressure on Rob without him suddenly flipping the odds against me?

3. Catching Rob while landing and while he is in the air. People say ROB has terrible landing but the decent ROBS I've fought just fast fall and do that spinny jet blast all around them, making it too risky to punish and by the time he lands he can throw out an attack. What should I do?

I've tried to utilize short hopping f-airs and that doesn't work but even when I stay rooted to the ground, walking, running and so forth, he just needs to do any of his options in number 2 and boots me back away from him when I get close or into an u-air beat down.

Any advice? How do I approach? What are my options? General tips and tricks would also be really handy.

 

[Jerodak]

@ Kooky Koopa

R.O.B can be quite annoying, but he does have a few weaknesses, the first being his projectile wall. It's a good wall but R.O.B relies very heavily on the Gyro for his zone out game. It has the most reward on hit, and has the fastest rate of fire. Just remember that if you shield it, he can throw another one immediately after because it disappears. It's better to dodge it if you can, or even better, pick it up. This will leave him with only the laser, which can only fire once every 4 seconds, not a very good rate of fire for walling out Bowser, it's also slow on start-up and can be punished with the Gyro pretty easily if you anticipate it. Just keep in mind that an interrupted laser does not count as it being used. If you are holding the Gyro, or if it's still active and somewhere out of the way, and the laser has been used, you will not have to deal with any projectiles at all for a full four seconds or until the Gyro goes poof, whichever comes first.

When you pick up a R.O.B's gyro they will often either try to bait you to throw it and deal with that by either shielding or reflecting the gyro, or they will try to go in and force you to drop it. Pay close attention to R.O.B when you pick up a gyro, if you feel like he'll side b, then try to bait those out of him, as long as you don't get the gyro reflected at you, it's an easy move to punish. If they are shield happy, you can try to approach while they are shield camping to gain a bit of ground. If the R.O.B tries to make you drop it, then you could try throwing the Gyro during the approach if an opportunity comes up, just be careful not to let them grab it and that they aren't just baiting the throw to react with a shield or side b. If you do connect with the gyro, try to regrab it if you can, you can often give R.O.B a taste of his own medicine by getting multiple gyro throws on him to rack damage, and possibly get him offstage, but again be mindful of how R.O.B is reacting so you don't waste it. Otherwise, if you don't want to risk throwing the Gyro at R.O.B, simply smash throwing it up into the air is also not a terrible idea, it'll stay active for a while and you can try to advance before it vanishes.

When on the approach, if you block a projectile near R.O.B, he shouldn't recover fast enough to avoid a quick punish, I usually just jab him since it's a good way to push him toward the ledge where I can work on getting him offstage. When you've broken through the projectile wall, look out for his tilts and aerials, they are decent up close tools for keeping you out and R.O.B's second line of defense. Do not get over-zealous, because you could risk giving R.O.B free damage. That being said, his spacing options are not that great, and he has poor horizontal range on the ground compared to Bowser. So you can easily outspace him up close if he's on the ground. If he goes into the air, keep in mind that he has no aerial mix-ups on shield outside of the fast-fall fake-outs into grabs that everyone has. R.O.B's Nair is really good, and annoying, you generally don't want to challenge it, but it suffers on it's start-up. If you're near R.O.B when he's trying to use it, it's not safe at all, and if he's falling into you with it then you can take care of that with an upsmash. If you block a fast-fall Nair, then you can punish it with a shield grab if you're quick enough, but R.O.B likes to mash out Dtilt and other attacks after a Nair to catch you trying to punish them, so if you aren't sure about the punish then don't go for it, instead just try to stay near R.O.B but outside of his tilt ranges where you can try to punish if he mashes anything out.

Once you get in, you want to focus on getting R.O.B offstage as soon as you can. His recovery is actually quite weak, unlike most recoveries, he does not get to try again when he gets hit, instead R.O.B's up-b works on a fuel system which is depleted as his jet is used. What you want to do is keep R.O.B offstage until this fuel runs out, at which point he will fall helplessly to the lower blastzone. Now if R.O.B manages to get back on stage do not panic, he does not replenish fuel when grabbing the ledge, so if he ran out of fuel just before grabbing the ledge, he's still on an empty tank until his base actually touches solid ground. Now if he does land on the stage or a platform, his fuel does not replenish instantly, instead it takes about four to five seconds for his fuel to return to full, so keep your pressure on him as best as you can and get him back offstage as soon as possible.

Always pressure R.O.B if you can, especially if he's on a low or empty tank, because if you manage to launch him back offstage, he has to recover again with even less fuel than before unless you allowed him to stay on long enough to get it all back Just make sure that it's smart pressure, keep your defense in mind while mounting your offense. Because of how his fuel works, when he recovers low, covering the ledge with firebreath isn't a terrible idea, if he gets stuck in it and is forced to up b several times, it can gimp his recovery. Decent R.O.Bs won't make this easy, and might even be able to get out of the fire, so be prepared for that and don't be too greedy.

As for Rolling R.O.Bs if he's spamming rolls away from you, just follow him, either he will force himself into a corner, or try to mix it up. If you're just walking after him, you should have plenty of time to react to any mix-up as long as you're well spaced. Otherwise, standing at R.O.B's ideal roll distance can bait rolls into you for easy punishes with fortress or any anti-roll option of your choice. You don't have to punish every roll that you see, just wait and punish the ones that you are baiting out, if you get too hungry for the hit and start chasing him around then you're just playing how R.O.B wants you to play. Only attempt to punish when you're sure you can get the hit.

Hope this helps!

Edit: Also, if you have time, please watch this. http://www.twitch.tv/keyurai/c/5904781 This match is old, and spoiler alert: I lose, but it might be informative to watch. There were a few things I did right, and a lot of things I did wrong. That R.O.B player is pretty well known as far as I can tell, but you can see in this video how I pretty much played the match-up very wrong on a fundamental level. There were times where I didn't go in when I should, I gave up stage control, and my defense wasn't up to par, so I took a lot of unnecessary damage. For the most part, this should at least offer a good example of how not to play the match-up, hope it helps!

 

[Kooky Koopa]

Thanks a a lot Jerodak. That's a pretty thorough guide for me how to face Rob, really appreciate it! Next time I face a ROB in one of my sparring sessions, I'll hope to put into practice your advice. I'll definitely consider walking at him once the distance is closed, I was likely being far too aggro (or hungry as you said) or stagnant by standing still. ROB's speed is jarring but I suppose I'll just have to get used to that. The Gyro advice especially is really helpful, I'll try to grab it more often than simply shield it. Cheers mate and again, a big thank you for taking the time to post the info.

EDIT: I just want to report back and say I was able to fight my friends ROB a LOT more manageably than before thanks to your advice. I paid much closer attention to taking my time, walking and focusing heavily on holding my ground in the neutral while forcing ROB out and waiting for him to react. I also tried to launch the Gyro mid air like in your stream which hurt his pressure game a lot. I feel a lot more comfortable with the MU due to your post and I would like to give a very hearty thank you for your advice.

I watched your Twitch link and it was very informative too. I noticed that we both had similar issues with ROB as he walled us out with projectiles and rack up that %. It's still a tough MU but after what you wrote up, well, you've made things so much easier and helped my Bowser overall. Cheers!

 

[Jerodak]

So after doing a bit of testing, It looks like if you ever grab Rosalina, and Luma is around, it looks like the best throw to use might be up throw because it not only has a hitbox that can damage Luma while Rosalina is being thrown, but you have frame advantage on Luma when the throw is over, and can get a free Jab combo or Ftilt on Luma if it's in range. This could be useful as an easy set-up for quickly getting rid of or racking up damage on Luma while also dishing out some damage to Rosalina and putting her up into the air.

Down throw also damages Luma, but it won't give you any advantage until later percents, forward throw was the same as Down throw advantage-wise but without the extra damage on Luma. Backthrow gives you some advantage, but not enough for Ftilt which would be great because you're putting Luma behind you. Of course, in every instance you can shield to avoid being hit, but then you're stuck being unable to follow-up on Rosa and you aren't doing damage to Luma, if you're going to pass up the chance to press an advantage on Rosalina, might as well punish Luma at least, especially if it can lead to an easy Luma K.O.

Just remember not to go for pummels, sometimes you can hit Luma with the pummel hitbox before it hits you, but Bowser's pummel isn't fast enough to do this consistently so it's better to just throw immediately while Luma is around. It won't be able to attack while you're actually in the middle of a throw, this also works for default side B, but not dash slam for some reason.

 

[MrEh]

It won't be able to attack while you're actually in the middle of a throw, this also works for default side B, but not dash slam for some reason.

Sakurai forgets to update custom moves whenever they update the game. That's why they fixed luma with regular grabs and regular klaw, but they forgot about dash slam. A similar scenario happens when you try to bowsercide someone with dash slam compared to regular klaw.

It's like Sakurai left dash slam unchanged even through the 1.04 patch, which is kind of sad.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Trying to figure out Bowser's performance against custom Villager. He's got a sapling that's a banana peel on steroids. I'm not sure what to do about it besides pick fireball and hope the opponent didn't choose their default or quick pocket. Dash slash is often too telegraphed for this situation and does nothing to help prevent villager's roll tactics. I've tried aerial reverse b, but that's just a one-off mix-up. Then there's the exploding balloons. They can be used in combination with the sapling to ensure ledge camp planking, though it's possible for our standard flame to do work if their positioning is bad (on-stage and off-stage).

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Trying to figure out Bowser's performance against custom Villager. He's got a sapling that's a banana peel on steroids. I'm not sure what to do about it besides pick fireball and hope the opponent didn't choose their default or quick pocket. Dash slash is often too telegraphed for this situation and does nothing to help prevent villager's roll tactics. I've tried aerial reverse b, but that's just a one-off mix-up. Then there's the exploding balloons. They can be used in combination with the sapling to ensure ledge camp planking, though it's possible for our standard flame to do work if their positioning is bad (on-stage and off-stage).

I was actually thinking about customs villager this morning when reading people's opinions of fire shot in the moveset thread. For those out of the loop, Zero released a video yesterday showcasing the timber counter and explosive Up B. Villager has other, interesting customs, but those two are the ones that are really game changing. What makes our neutral B so valuable is that it will pass through the tree, should Villager decide to water the plant. The reason he'll water it in most matchups is to create that physical wall between him and the opponent to absorb projectiles. Unfortunately, the fire breath doesn't last at full range forever. And even at its full range, I think Villager could hit Bowser, a large target, with his fair/bair.

The reason Fire shot is worth considering is how its range is even greater than Fire breath, and never runs out. It could lets us play the camping game until Villager realizes he can't chill on the ledge.

 

[Hitman JT]

is going to be a huge problem with customs on. I'm at a bit of a loss here.
Without customs, she's relatively easy. With them, she's like goddamn Sonic on crack. There's no escape, and is combo food for her. AND she has a hoo-hah that's better than a hoo-hah.

 

[Cassius.]

I just need an answer to this question:

Does Dash Slash go through Villager's rocket?

We obviously can't trip in the air. I'm guessing Dash Slash can put us far enough out of range of that trip bud or whatever that **** is called.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I just need an answer to this question:

Does Dash Slash go through Villager's rocket?

We obviously can't trip in the air. I'm guessing Dash Slash can put us far enough out of range of that trip bud or whatever that **** is called.

From the ground, Dash Slash will clank with Villager's standard Rocket. I tried the air versions, but Bowser got hit every time, probably because there's no such thing as clanking in the air. You also need to take care that you're not to late with the slash. Bowser travels quite a bit of distance before the massive hitbox actually appears.

Not a bad idea for getting past the plant, but you'd have to go clean over rather than waveslashing through it. Land within a foot's distance and you'll trip immediately. The point of the move is that it's placed near a ledge where there's no place safe to land between it, the ledge, and whatever moves Villager wants to use to catch you falling on him. In addition, you can forget about this option if Villager can wisen up to this trick and simply water the plant. The tree will smack you back. Dash slam will get through a tree, but if there's no reason for Villager to water the plant, he probably won't. The plant just does so much more for him and stays out for so much longer.

Side note: Did you guys know there's a moment of invincibility towards the end of dash slash? That must be what that green glow is.

Edit: Scratch what I said about Dash Slam working. Apparently, the Tree's counter activates on command grab hitboxes. But not normal grabs. How bizarre.

Second Edit: And I'm wrong again about Dash slash having invulnerability. I was testing it on the counter tree, but all that was happening was that I was killing the tree itself on every second slash. I forgot that the trees have actual health values. But here's an idea. If your dash slash deals enough damage to destroy the tree, no counter happens, and it stops being an obstacle entirely. When we're faced with the tree, we should soften it up with our neutral B, than Dash Slash to pass through unharmed.

 

[Karsticles]

Anyone have thoughts on dealing with Lucario's Vacuum Sphere?

 

[Jerodak]

I just need an answer to this question:

Does Dash Slash go through Villager's rocket?

We obviously can't trip in the air. I'm guessing Dash Slash can put us far enough out of range of that trip bud or whatever that **** is called.

Sometimes against rockets I just stand back and breath fire if I'm not close enough to just run through it and grab him, Firebreath destroys the rocket and Villager's slingshot can't get through it either, he also can't follow behind the rocket for grabs or dash attacks and the only option he has is to full hop to get around the fire or just hang back and wait or try to go for another set-up. If you're worried about the Villager being able to do something else, you could opt for fire roar, it should generally hit the villager too most of the time, and it'll still clear the projectiles away. The recharge time shouldn't be that big of a deal either since it should probably be used sparingly anyway. Speaking of the slingshot, if you see that the Villager is being too Fair or Bair happy, crouching actually gets under rising slingshots pretty well, and you can crawl forward to gradually close the gap and if you're close enough you can even punish with dtilt, it might not win the game on it's own but it should help to keep the villager honest.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Anyone have thoughts on dealing with Lucario's Vacuum Sphere?

The snaring aura sphere is a move that travels transcendently. You can't get rid of it with Fire Breath or any attack. It will pass through your shield similar to Fire Shot, but travels so slowly that it's entirely possible you'll get hit as soon as you drop your shield. When charged, it travels even slower at a reduced distance. The move increases in knockback when charged to full, but won't reasonably kill Bowser until Lucario has at least 120% damage worth of rage and aura, and Bowser at a similar percentage. The knockback is vertical, I'd say a 75 degree angle. It charges generally faster as well, but not by a ton.

The weakness of this aura sphere is simple. No matter what the charge, Lucario sits for more than a full second before he can follow the sphere. a punish is highly possible if you can get airborne and perhaps land nearby with the help of dash slam/slash. Trying to break through this attack with your shield or a dodge roll is almost guaranteed to fail. This custom move usually goes hand in hand with advancing aura sphere, which will be especially effective if you're stuck in your shield.

I have some interest in Lucario, and if I had to play him against Bowser, I'd opt for normal aura sphere. That move is beautiful for large targets like Bowser and would intercept fortress beautifully. Lucario could set up a full charged snaring sphere at the ledge by running off and then recovering, but Bowser's Fortress could simply travel under it, I feel. The normal sphere could be launched from much lower off the stage and at no risk of SDing. It's also the go to punish for somebody trying to land, that has trouble landing safely if they're being pressured. Read: Bowser.

 

[Karsticles]

The snaring aura sphere is a move that travels transcendently. You can't get rid of it with Fire Breath or any attack. It will pass through your shield similar to Fire Shot, but travels so slowly that it's entirely possible you'll get hit as soon as you drop your shield. When charged, it travels even slower at a reduced distance. The move increases in knockback when charged to full, but won't reasonably kill Bowser until Lucario has at least 120% damage worth of rage and aura, and Bowser at a similar percentage. The knockback is vertical, I'd say a 75 degree angle. It charges generally faster as well, but not by a ton.

The weakness of this aura sphere is simple. No matter what the charge, Lucario sits for more than a full second before he can follow the sphere. a punish is highly possible if you can get airborne and perhaps land nearby with the help of dash slam/slash. Trying to break through this attack with your shield or a dodge roll is almost guaranteed to fail. This custom move usually goes hand in hand with advancing aura sphere, which will be especially effective if you're stuck in your shield.

I have some interest in Lucario, and if I had to play him against Bowser, I'd opt for normal aura sphere. That move is beautiful for large targets like Bowser and would intercept fortress beautifully. Lucario could set up a full charged snaring sphere at the ledge by running off and then recovering, but Bowser's Fortress could simply travel under it, I feel. The normal sphere could be launched from much lower off the stage and at no risk of SDing. It's also the go to punish for somebody trying to land, that has trouble landing safely if they're being pressured. Read: Bowser.

It was hard to get at him because he chilled on the ledge. Otherwise I felt like a SHADC into Fortress might work.

 

[MrEh]

Without customs, she's relatively easy. With them, she's like goddamn Sonic on crack. There's no escape, and is combo food for her. AND she has a hoo-hah that's better than a hoo-hah.

Mash jab in her face, try to UpB OoS if she slams into you.

Spike her during her ledge snap. (I assume she's taking warp.)

 

[Jerodak]

Mash jab in her face, try to UpB OoS if she slams into you.

Spike her during her ledge snap. (I assume she's taking warp.)

I'm not sure of the chances, but it might be possible to meet a few Palutena players using jump glide.

 

[MrEh]

If she's taking jump glide, then intercept her with aerial of choice. Same deal with rocket jump.

 

[Karsticles]

Have we talked about Sonic?

If s Sonic player plays the full game against me, I do pretty well. But if he just runs away and charges Spindash, I feel ****ed. I can jab or ftilt it consistently, but then it clinks, which pissed me off. Then, after the link, I haven't found a good option.

So I ask:
1) When a Sonic charges Spindash from the edge of the stage, what do you do?
2) When you clank with Spindash, how do you follow it up?
3) Is there anything that beats Spindash? Besides Fire Breath, which is unreliable in this situation.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

3) Is there anything that beats Spindash? Besides Fire Breath, which is unreliable in this situation.

Unfortunately, I was expecting Dsmash to work, but it only clanks like other moves. If your goal is to clank, you might want Dtilt. Two hits come out to help with your timing. When you do clank, with it, an immediate ftilt will reach Sonic. May I ask why fire breath is unreliable? It forces Sonic to go airborne, and all his aerials and homing attack are pretty easy to shield grab or punish. Homing attack is especially easy to counter with our Usmash since most of them will connect directly on top of Bowser, where he is partially invincible.

I must confess I never fought a competent Sonic player with Bowser. But here's a theory. Spin dash's greatest strength is the ability to cancel with a jump, even if Sonic falls offstage with it. How about we just sit calmly at a ledge and full hop Dair as he passes under? His kneejerk reaction will no doubt be a jump to catch us ascending, but Dair immediately lifts bowser higher into the air. High enough that, from our full hop, Sonic probably won't reach us before our hitbox is active.

As far as I know, spin dash can't conceivably lead into a grab until he stops, so shielding the onslaught until you're in a position to counterattack sounds like your safest bet. Be mindful of attacking him while spindash is winding up. He can cancel the charge into shield, which of course can lead to a shieldgrab.

After seeing this video, I'm most afraid of Sonic's Dair offstage catching our rather slow Fortress. You'll see it halfway into the video. The meteor effect can secure an early kill on us since Whirling Fortress' height gain is not stellar. So try not to use your double jump when recovering so that you have it in case of that spike.

 

[Cassius.]

this is a larger issue because bowser's upb blows now (in this regard since it's not "invincible" anymore), so now we have to deal with this **** and cannot punish things outright. anyway:

have you tried experimenting with pivot grabbing? grab armor doesn't exist in this game, but (you should be aware of this) bowser's pivot grab is extremely disjointed. there is a pretty high chance you'd end up grabbing sonic before he comes into physical contact with you if he's charging at you. for this I would advise practicing instant pivot grabbing. It's extremely easy in this game compared to Brawl. if sonic decides to jump over you to avoid the grab, you should be fine unless he DAirs or something

so basically when sonic charges spindash, i just give him space and prepare to either attempt to reset it with jab/tilts or pivot grab, or i just let the situation go and just take a passive option (shielding, avoiding the dash). If you shield while Sonic passes through your shield (or even stops in front), you should pay attention to what the Sonic does, whether he jumps and does nothing or does an attack immediately after jumping. you can try turning around or going for an aerial out of shield when sonic passes through you.

if you are aware that the sonic player will attempt to jump before hitting you in the front or after he passes through you due to conditioning or just reading the player's bad habit, you can try and track his landing down and punish his landing option with usmash or whatever you see fit.

when I do clank with spindash, I usually don't do anything and let the player hang themselves with whatever option they go for unless they decide to just reset the situation. If timed properly, Jab/Ftilting the spindash should keep you far enough that the only thing Sonic would be able to do immediately is jab you if you do press a button (if he wants to dash grab there should be enough distance for you to throw something out before this happens) I forget how clanking with moves in this game works and who has the frame advantage after what situation. It's different than how it used to be though.

basically, if you have good enough reactions to deal with sonic like that, then you can try the options I listed, since those usually work for me. If you feel as though you can't really react well or you're not feeling confident for whatever reason (ie being in a compromising situation, stage control, bad risk), just let it pass. You don't have to take action against EVERY single spindash that comes at you. You have six minutes.

 

[Jerodak]

3) Is there anything that beats Spindash? Besides Fire Breath, which is unreliable in this situation.

Depends on which spin you're talking about, if you're talking about, I know Nair will work against either one as long as the actual full hitbox is out by the time Sonic runs into you.

If it's the down b spin, even at full charge, you can just use an Ftilt, because it wins the priority check and Sonic will take a hit because there's no disjoint.

2) When you clank with Spindash, how do you follow it up?

Depends on the range, you have to keep in mind that clanking will always have one of two possibilities, first, either the attacks are within the appropriate percent range of each other to be considered equal attacks, meaning that you both return to neutral at exactly the same time, giving both characters a frame advantage of 0.

Or, one attack is stronger, presumably putting the initiator of the stronger attack at advantage or dealing damage to whoever initiated the weaker hit if the attack overlaps a hurtbox.

So, to get the most out of clanking, one would ideally find a reliable way to force sonic into the second scenario where Bowser has advantage, but there aren't any reliable methods of doing this, unfortunately.

However, assuming that it's the first situation, then there really isn't a best option unless you're spaced at the tip of jab 1 range after the clank. Otherwise, pretty much anything can happen.

As for sonic spamming spin at the edge, honestly I don't know of a reliable way to deal with that just yet, just as Cassius. stated, because the fortress got nerfed by having the I-frames removed, we lost a valuable option for dealing with situations like these, and it makes a few of Bowser's match-ups quite a bit tougher than they would have been otherwise.

 

[Karsticles]

Well, I am pretty impatient, so I got my wife to mash down B with Sonic for an hour while I ran tests. :-)

Findings:

Jab: always clanks; disadvantage for us.
Ftilt: sometimes clanks, sometimes wins.
Dtilt: always wins, but punished if we whiff.
Utilt: didn't try.
Usmash: always clanks; hard to time.
Dsmash: always clanks.
Fsmash: wins, but hard to time.
Throw: always trades (both take 3%).
Pivot Grab: almost always trades; won once in 40 tries.
Klaw: won once, couldn't reproduce. Usually trades.
Bowser Bomb: always wins.
Fortress: always clanks.
Nair: doesn't come out in time on reaction usually, but traded for 5% each when it did.

If we are going for the safest option, Fortress and Jab are the best bets. If you are confident, dtilt or Bomb beats Spindash decisively. Pivot Grab is not worth going for. Ftilt is a nice medium between the safe and risky bets.

Spot dodge was also solid, as Fortress beats Spindash after it turns around for a second hit. Most players jump and up B, though, so it might not matter.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser Bomb: always wins.

The answer is clear ladies and gents.

 

[B!squick]

That's pretty much Smash 4 Bowser in a nutshell. That and Pivot Grab for Days with a dash of USmash for flavor.

 

[Uncle]

Sonic's mix of great mobility, low startups/cooldowns, solid KO ability, and weight that's WAY too generous for a character of his type make him a pain to deal with for almost every character outside of the Top 5.

Fortunately for us, most Sonic players don't know how to control their SONIC SPEED and end up getting smacked around worse than Robotnik's robots. The ones that do will dance around us like crazy and render our defensive tools mostly useless, though.

My opinion about the MU being awful for Bowser has only become firmer with time. Either choose another character or get ready for an uphill battle at the speed of sound.

 

[Big Sean]

I just tried dash slash against sonic's down b. I think it worked one time, and failed like 12 times. no clanking. I don't know when it works, but i'm not doing that again.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I just tried dash slash against sonic's down b. I think it worked one time, and failed like 12 times. no clanking. I don't know when it works, but i'm not doing that again.

Oh no no. If customs are involved, you'll want Dash Slam. It beats Spin Dash and Spin Charge consistently, regardless of charge. Well, almost. I suspect that the first frame or two will result in you getting hit at the same time that you grab him. And with no grab armor in Smash 4, it's a lost trade. I think Bowser's grab box just isn't out enough to reflect the animation of his arm still extending. Take out the first two frames, and you've still got ten left which is a considerable window for timing.