Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[MrEh]

#lolapexruleset

 

[Zigsta]

I made a preliminary Bowser MU spread based on how I feel this far into the game:

+2
Dr. Mario
Ike
Jigglypuff
GW


+1
Charizard
Falco
Kirby
Lucina
Olimar
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Zelda
DK

0
Ganondorf
Greninja
Little Mac
Lucario
Marth
Mega Man
Ness
Pac Man
Palutena
Rob
Robin
Shulk
Sonic
Toon Link
Villager
Mario

-1
Bowser Jr.
Captain Falcon
Pit
Dark Pit
Diddy Kong
Duck Hunt
D3
Link
MK
Peach
Pikachu
Rosalina
Samus
Yoshi
Luigi

-2
Fox
ZSS

-3
Sheik


Whatchu fellas think?

 

[Cassius.]

Would move Ganon to +1 and Falcon to 0. I don't think Sonic is even. Those are my main ones, the rest of my changes would probably just be personal things.

I'm also not so sure that we beat Ike and Puff that soundly but I'm not really willing to debate that lol

 

[Hitman JT]

I'd move Sonic to -2, Duck Hunt to +1 or 0, ROB to -1, Little Mac to +1, and DK to 0. Probably more I'd move up or down one spot but I'm lazy.

And lol, we think we body Jigglypuff while the Jigg boards think they body us. I think we might win that one slightly, idk about +2 though.

 

[Cassius.]

Wait, ROB was EVEN?

..nah man. I didn't even notice that, but no way. I'm pretty sure we go even with or lose slightly to a good amount of the cast. There are more characters in this game I can safely say we beat or do really well against (so 0 pushing on +1). Bowser has a very similar spread as he had in Brawl.

 

[Zigsta]

Agreed that Bowser's spread is similar to Brawl in that he doesn't outright beat many characters. But the big difference is he goes even or -1 with a lot of the cast whereas in Brawl he had more -2 and -3 MUs.

 

[Cassius.]

Yeah, I can definitely agree with that. There aren't too many characters that I feel like have a real field day with Bowser aside from the usual suspects.

 

[Jerodak]

And the spread will only change, as match-ups continue to evolve. I feel like Bowser might be able to convert some of those -1 matches into 0 matches.

 

[Zigsta]

And the spread will only change, as match-ups continue to evolve. I feel like Bowser might be able to convert some of those -1 matches into 0 matches.

Totally agreed. The more we play, the more some of those MUs will come down.

I personally think Fox will go down to -1 after a while. In Brawl Olimar was my most played MU, and after playing it enough and MMing/tournament-ing other strong Olimars, I was able to get the MU bumped down to -1. (Might've foolishly gone up to -2 after I stopped playing though. I remember looking at the last MU Chart and thinking that Bowser got the shaft.) Larry and I play often, so Fox will definitely become my most played MU. Already trying out some Fox-specific tricksies that could be really great with practice.

And likewise, I also play against Sheik, Rosalina, Sonic, and Samus a lot. Yet again my practice is with hard/janky MUs. XD

 

[Cassius.]

I agree. After going to APEX this weekend, I'm actually feeling a bit more positive about Bowser's outlook and matchups in this game.

The game is still early. We just need to play more and improve ourselves.

 

[MythTrainerInfinity]

http://smashboards.com/threads/aura-breaks-the-following-match-ups-currently-bowser.389435/

Hello. The Lucarios are discussing Bowser and would enjoy your input. Cheers.

 

[MrEh]

ZSS might be -3.

 

[Uncle]

The only change I'd make to Zig's list that isn't by a single point is Sonic. That MU feels like a bonafide -2 for Bowser when both players really know what they're doing. Could my opinion of it improve in the future, though? Sure.

Like Cassius said, it's still early.

 

[B!squick]

Is Ike really +2?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Is Ike really +2?

Yep. Bowser and Ike want to be close and in most cases it works to Bowser's advantage. Only time Bowser might ever have trouble is if you got offstage somehow.

 

[Cassius.]

I personally am not so sure we beat Ike +2, but I do believe we do pretty well against him. I play against Ike more often than anything else in this game still after 6 years lmao

 

[Genome Squirrel]

What is the best way to deal with Ness's PK Thunder while Bowser is recovering?

 

[MagiusNecros]

What is the best way to deal with Ness's PK Thunder while Bowser is recovering?

Any aerial attack. Don't avoid it just destroy it. Show the electro ball who the real boss is.

 

[Jerodak]

What is the best way to deal with Ness's PK Thunder while Bowser is recovering?

Nair, it covers Bowser from all angles, so it's a fairly airtight answer, If you're recovering low, then you can just Up-b through it. Make sure to hit the head, not the tail.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Spoiler

+2
Olimar

+1
Pac Man : Bowser Dair/downB > Pac's upB, always.
D3 : Jab1, Utilt, Fair > Gordo setups. Our approach options are eons better.

0
GW : GW's Uair, upB setups are plenty trouble for our stage recovery. GW's grabs combos to those setups too.
Duck Hunt : Bowser jab1, pivot grab/Bair, Firebreath covers a lot to DH's approaches. Bowser Ftilt beats can.
Rosalina: Firebreath halts many Rosa's approach options, free damage on Luma. Fthrow/Bthrow invul to Luma.
Captain Falcon : Bowser has a way better edgeguarding game.
Wario : Bike setups offstage beat a lot of options.

Just sharing what I feel about the MUs, with annotations. Also I know some of you remember I used to get fusturated about the D3 MU. That's changed.

 

[Jerodak]

Speaking of throwing Rosalina, since Luma can't be used to interrupt throws anymore, has anyone tried using down throw to squash Luma while hitting Rosa? Or maybe upthrow to semi-blender it? Oh, and side b since it has a hitbox now.

 

[MrEh]

Ike destroys our recovery with Eruption. If he abuses the 1 frame window to punish ledge grabs, Fortress gets torn to pieces.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Speaking of throwing Rosalina, since Luma can't be used to interrupt throws anymore, has anyone tried using down throw to squash Luma while hitting Rosa? Or maybe upthrow to semi-blender it? Oh, and side b since it has a hitbox now.

I think may have tried that before and got hit. It was such a long time ago, and there aren't many RosaLumas as there used to be. I'd love to confirm this tho.

 

[Cassius.]

Ike destroys our recovery with Eruption. If he abuses the 1 frame window to punish ledge grabs, Fortress gets torn to pieces.

That's fair. Ike is just as easy to tear to pieces offstage as well lol

 

[MrEh]

The difference is that we have to go offstage to hit Ike. Ike can just stand at the ledge and charge eruption if we're ever forced to use Fortress to recover. (which is most of the time)

Not to say that we don't win the matchup, but it's something to think about.

 

[Jerodak]

I think may have tried that before and got hit. It was such a long time ago, and there aren't many RosaLumas as there used to be. I'd love to confirm this tho.

If it was prepatch then yeah you might have gotten hit, but that was when Luma could attack during throws, which was confirmed to be patched out. However, if you grab Rosa while Luma is in the middle of an attack then you can still be hit out of your throw, and you can't go for pummels on her while Luma is around either. Otherwise, even lengthy throw animations are safe.

 

[Big Sean]

@ Zigsta Thanks for doing this! I think the list is mostly right. From the matchups I know well i would probably say captain falcon is closer to a zero and sonic is closer to -1.

 

[Rend4125]

A random bit I noticed about pacman, firebreath on hydrant may be a nice gimmick that could work at least if in the right position. You and pacman are both approaching the hydrant from both sides and you firebreath. You catch him in the firebreath hitstun then get the hydrant to go off on him for extra %. Done it on a few pacmans, not sure what the hydrant percent is to go off though but it was long enough to get it to launch while they were still in firebreath

 

[EarthenPillar]

The Pacman MU is heavy in favor towards Bowser, really... everytime i fight one I neutral to be experiment of their setups. Bowser has answers for pretty much any setup they may have yet.

Pacman uses || Bowser responds:
FireHydrant || Firebreath
FireHydrant, whacks || Ftilt, Dtilt, Fsmash
FireHydrant(launched) || Ftilt, Utilt, Fair
FireHydrant(above) || Upsmash
Fruit || jab1/Uptilt
Fruit || Firebreath
Fruit || Fortress
UpB || Dair/DownB
SideB || Fair pellet
SideB(recovery) || Firebreath
Jelly || OosNair

Remember to mourn for Pacman.

 

[Teve31]

I've been playing as bowser lately and I'm having trouble against robin. How would I get past his arc-fire and arc-thunder. (I also play as robin)

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I've been playing as bowser lately and I'm having trouble against robin. How would I get past his arc-fire and arc-thunder. (I also play as robin)

You need to gap close by running and shielding because Robin won't approach you by default. Once you're at arc-fire range, you have options. You can either continue to wait out the match by shield -> roll back if arc-fire hits your shield, advance forward to bypass arc-fire range, or jump. Shield -> roll back is only if they're arc-fire happy. If they start charging arc-thunder, you need to advance somehow, either by dashing in or jumping towards them and predicting what response they'll have. If you end up using flame breath because of defensive arc-thunder play, you can trigger the collision on arc-thunder before it hits you unless it's a fully charged thoron, so keep that in mind.

There's a general rule against projectile characters that once you get passed their zoning options, you need to wait for them to do something first, whether that's throw an attack or perform a defensive maneuver. That's when they are most vulnerable because, no matter what, they want to get back into their zoning game, so they're always going to try and create the distance somehow. Keep practicing and testing how far you can push yourself against your opponent's habits, and the Robin fight, among others, won't seem as bad.

 

[Jerodak]

I've been playing as bowser lately and I'm having trouble against robin. How would I get past his arc-fire and arc-thunder. (I also play as robin)

Arcfire is really laggy, you can even full jump over it and still get a foward air punish, or roll through it and down b. So it helps to be able to anticipate it and react accordingly. I usually prefer to just spot-dodge the arc thunders, they are small and fly very fast, so it's safe to spot dodge them if you're far enough away to not get punished, which shouldn't be too hard because Robin is really slow.

Firebreath can stop both Arc thunder and Arc Fire, but it's generally only worth it if you can also hit Robin at the same time.

 

[MagiusNecros]

You can just punch his projectiles unless it's Arc Thunder or Thoron which you can just jump over.

 

[MrEh]

If you ever get into Robin's face, just jab him over and over again. Getting into his face is easy because his projectiles aren't that good and Robin is slow as bricks.

3, 2, 1 GO!

*ROBIN CHARGES THUNDER*

*BOWSER RUNS ACROSS ENTIRE STAGE IN 2 SECONDS*

 

[Oracle_Summon]

I made a preliminary Bowser MU spread based on how I feel this far into the game:

+2
Dr. Mario
Ike
Jigglypuff
GW


+1
Charizard
Falco
Kirby
Lucina
Olimar
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Zelda
DK

0
Ganondorf
Greninja
Little Mac
Lucario
Marth
Mega Man
Ness
Pac Man
Palutena
Rob
Robin
Shulk
Sonic
Toon Link
Villager
Mario

-1
Bowser Jr.
Captain Falcon
Pit
Dark Pit
Diddy Kong
Duck Hunt
D3
Link
MK
Peach
Pikachu
Rosalina
Samus
Yoshi
Luigi

-2
Fox
ZSS

-3
Sheik


Whatchu fellas think?

I thought DK's ranged attacks would prove difficult for Bowser's slow and laggy moves; otherwise, this list looks spot on for me.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Oracle_Summon From my experience, DK is a borderline case where our kill options outshine his once neutral breaks down, but DK has all the tools needed to still properly fight us, both in and out of neutral. Zigsta's extremely good at closing stocks in his matches, so I think I know where that +1 is coming from.

 

[Oracle_Summon]

@ Oracle_Summon From my experience, DK is a borderline case where our kill options outshine his once neutral breaks down, but DK has all the tools needed to still properly fight us, both in and out of neutral. Zigsta's extremely good at closing stocks in his matches, so I think I know where that +1 is coming from.

That makes sense. Thank you both UltimaLuminaire and Zigtsa for the information.

 

[MrEh]

DK is one of those few characters where taking Dash Slam is preferable over Dash Slash.

Is he spamming Kong Cyclone? Spam Dash Slam.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm interested in the matchups where dash slam would be preferred over dash slash. Being able to close that much distance on the ground and in the air with a command grab is really good. The horizontal knockback would make it extremely promising against Little Mac's reliance on super armor moves. I can tell you as a Mac Main that the big custom that we for sure want is flaming lunge for its recovery applications, and I'm curious if dash slam beats it. And maybe you can use it on Yoshi to get past the subtractive double jump armor. You'll want to land back on stage to avoid killing yourself (or not if you're a stock ahead), but it will launch Yoshi horizontally without his double jump. I'd like to test some things with the move if I could just unlock the damned thing. It's my last move I need for Bowser, and I've completed the custom moves for about half the cast since the wii u version launched. Oh well, guess I should lab with his garbage custom Bombs instead.

 

[MrEh]

You need Slash against Yoshi, not Slam. Slam is only applicable against his Super Armor DJ, but you lose against everything else. Most Yoshi's just DJ Nair anyway, which stops Dash Slam clean.


The Bombs are a waste of time. I've labbed with them extensively and found nothing good about them.