Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Jerodak]

@ Zediwonder If it's just a matter of experience then it might be a good idea to just vs some of the players from the Bowser boards and use that to help form a basis. I've not played this match-up too often myself, and I wouldn't mind trying it out against someone that really knows what they are doing. And It'd probably be better to experience the match-up against someone that I know for sure isn't just a for glory random before trying to contribute to the discussion. If you want to add my NNID and play a few then let me know.

 

[Zediwonder]

I'd love to play and get some experience but unfortunately over here in Australia we have awful internet, I can't even get a good connection with my friends nearby and the lag is awful and unplayable. Perhaps some other Palutena players would love to play though, I'm sure they're just as eager for match up experience.

 

[Zigsta]

I can give my input after Apex. Will try to play some with AeroLink. Nicko lives here too but we only played one friendly months ago.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Palutena boards are currently discussing the Bowser match up. We don't seem to have much experience against Bowser players overall so if anyone could provide us with their opinion on the match up it'd be a great help!

Thanks.

Too lazy to go there myself but since Bowser is huge hitting Bowser with UpSmash while Pally is under a platform is the most annoying kind of cheese we might have to deal with. Of course Bowser can do the same but with much less range.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Falcon's janky for me. I almost always get a large lead and then get in a long string that kills me. I can't put my finger on it, but something feels really odd to me about that MU. Should have won yesterday but I SD'd game 3. Kinda tough when it's 2 stock. :/

I feel that Falcon is more swingy than the Mac MU. Falcon's grab follow-up and punish options seem to flow together nicely and much of our optimal spacing is useless against his zone-breaking options. His biggest issue is that once he's committed to an approach, we've got our opening, but since he can cover our approach options with his own approach options, there will be times where you simply can't take advantage of those windows because you chose the wrong answer. It's a very intense fight and requires you to respect Falcon more than vise versa.

 

[Uncle]

Right now, these are the only characters I don't enjoy fighting as Bowser: ,, & .

I feel confident against everyone else, even the likes of , , & .

 

[Zigsta]

I feel that Falcon is more swingy than the Mac MU. Falcon's grab follow-up and punish options seem to flow together nicely and much of our optimal spacing is useless against his zone-breaking options. His biggest issue is that once he's committed to an approach, we've got our opening, but since he can cover our approach options with his own approach options, there will be times where you simply can't take advantage of those windows because you chose the wrong answer. It's a very intense fight and requires you to respect Falcon more than vise versa.

100% agreed with this.

@ Uncle , Sheik is just awful, so I hear ya on that. Been hating the Sonic MU since Brawl...but I don't think it's as annoying now thanks to Bowser's KO power. Just have to play really patient and different than any other MU. ZSS I don't think is nearly as frustrating.

I used to hate Rosalina but after the patch, she's totally beatable. Just gotta be really on point with baiting and landing.

 

[MrEh]

Rosalina is easy compared to Sheik and ZSS.

 

[Bowser_Bomb]

Hey guy's! I'm new so pleasure to meet you guys and support our king.
But, I do believe that out of Rosa,Sonic,and Sheik, the ZSS MU is pretty much the worst IMO. Her D-Throw into Uairs into Up-B is almost impossible to DI. On Halberd NickRiddle has a 0% to death on poor Bowser.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Bowser_Bomb While I feel ya' on the ZSS MU, there is simply more holes in her ground game and air to ground game that Sheik simply does not have. True terror is being faced with Sheik's Fair and knowing that, even though you're on the ground, you can do nothing about it.

 

[Bowser_Bomb]

@ UltimaLuminaire I agree that is a strong factor in the MU. But, I suppose I am more confident in my Perfect Shield F-Tilt game then I am against tether grabs. But, you do make a valid point.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Right now, these are the only characters I don't enjoy fighting as Bowser: ,, & .

I feel confident against everyone else, even the likes of , , & .

Same. I'm trying to pick up Fox for those matchups, because they're way too frustrating to even attempt as Bowser for me. But to be fair, I'm pretty sure everyone hates fighting,, and .

 

[Uncle]

@ Zigsta - I used to hate Rosalina too, until I learned how to punish her weird-ass moveset. As for Sonic, he might get knocked off my list. Maybe a different approach to fighting him will work, like you said. It's the GOOD Sonics (rare as they are) that I'm worried about most.

@ MrEh - Exactly, which is why I said I feel confident against Rosalina these days. Sheik is just no. ZSS is.......maybe, but not right now.

@ Collective of Bears - Fox is definitely a good secondary/co-main for dealing with those guys. I'm exploring options for a secondary/co-main myself right now.

 

[Hitman JT]

The only thing I hate about ZSS is her damn grab. I see it coming from a mile away, spot dodge or run away, and still get caught because Bowser's a fatass. Other than that she's not a big deal.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

It's risky, but you can roll if you think ZSS is going to dash grab. You're well rewarded for it, too. Otherwise empty hops can be hilarious. Air dodge cancel, too. Not saying these give us any kind of solid answer, though. ZSS' grab is one of her best tools against us. It practically sings in the MU.

 

[Hitman JT]

I'm pretty sure Bowser's roll is the worst in the game which is why I try to avoid using it. Well....2nd worst, forgot about

But yeah, I try that too sometimes and still get got because Big B stole all of 's chili dogs.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Yeah, you should always avoid rolling with Bowser if you can. Exceptions should be when repositioning yourself beneath a falling opponent or if there's a blind spot in someone's approach. Again, you could try hopping around. You could then use your second jump for baiting, or you can auto-cancel Bairs like a lunatic. At least if you Bair your hurtbox won't be dangling so far down lol. If they don't do anything, you can just land.

 

[Jerodak]

The only thing I hate about ZSS is her damn grab. I see it coming from a mile away, spot dodge or run away, and still get caught because Bowser's a fatass. Other than that she's not a big deal.

If you're going to spotdodge, then you need to mind the timing, if she's spacing from max range, you have to delay your spot dodge, this is because the tether is active at the tip on the entire way out, so if you spotdodge immediately when she's max range then it'll just grab you out of it. Honestly, like Ultima was saying, you'd be better off just rolling towards her. She's super laggy during the tether, and there's no way you can get grabbed that way even if you roll as soon as the tether came out, but I actually like using short hops to get around it as well.

 

[KingKong_ad]

I actually really like the match up. I am facing a lot of them in ladder.

 

[MrEh]

ZSS is infuriating because she can mash buttons while in your face, and it will beat anything you do. It's ridiculous.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ MrEh Yeah, I just watched the video. From what I could see, in the early parts it was execution, since you could have Fortressed OoS as soon as the attack hit your shield. Afterward, you were simply inside dat godly Utilt. I mean, you'd think that'd be a great place to be, being a guy and all, but I swear that thing is just invincible. Then, it was just an issue of momentum causing you to choke. Should just wait for ZSS to finish falling after entering helpless state. Those could have been Bowser Bombs. Also, I'm starting to think that fast falling to the ground against ZSS would be better than trying to intercept her with Dash Slash.

Ah well, you'll always win in my book. The classic jab 1 -> Fsmash fake out only looks good when you and Zigsta pull it off, I swear. Yasha must've felt sassed from that and the Fortress semi-spike.

 

[MrEh]

I play him so much in friendlies already. There are no secrets.

 

[EarthenPillar]

ZSS likes Firebreath. It's the argumentative tool to a lot of ground approaches, including her grab. I don't recommend dodging towards her until she's conditioned to try grabbing Bowser at points you can clearly read.

 

[Jerodak]

This probably won't be very useful information, but...

Against Pacman, it's possible to safely grab keys by facing away from him, powershielding, then releasing the shield immediately and pressing a. If you do it correctly then you will grab the key just before it vanishes. It only works while facing away from pacman, and only if you powershield. If you face towards pacman then you'll see the item grab animation but the key will be too far away and vanish normally. If you don't powershield then they key vanishes before your shield stun wears off.

Vs megaman if you use side b after he plants a crash bomb on you, then you can get percentage dependant follow-ups if the bomb detonates when you're in the air. You can get Dair at low percents, and Bair or Fair at higher percents. The only time I could see this being useful is if you're both on last stock, and near the ledge, and he crash bombs you, so you take him off the side with side b, and get a spike or footstool, or Bair stage spike depending on percentage and so on. I did test this against a friend online and we confirmed that megaman can't up air to avoid the follow-up unless you're too slow. Just keep in mind that the follow up you're able to get is very dependant on the percentage because of the way the knockback trajectory works off of the crash bomb.

 

[MrEh]

Zairs still tear Bowser to pieces. Even more so now that he's even taller.

 

[Lavani]

Afterward, you were simply inside dat godly Utilt. I mean, you'd think that'd be a great place to be, being a guy and all, but I swear that thing is just invincible.

That's because it is!

ZSS' legs are invincible during the active frames.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ Lavani I'm just reminded of a Cards Against Humanity card, "Powerful thighs."

Well, now I can say it figuratively and literally.

 

[B!squick]

That's because it is!

ZSS' legs are invincible during the active frames.

fffffffuuuuu-!

:C

 

[Zigsta]

Hanging with the Japanese players in our hotel room. Turns out one of them mains Bowser. We both agree Sheik MU is awful. When I said Bowser beats Olimar the Japanese players got into this heated discussion.

 

[Jerodak]

Hanging with the Japanese players in our hotel room. Turns out one of them mains Bowser. We both agree Sheik MU is awful. When I said Bowser beats Olimar the Japanese players got into this heated discussion.

Do you speak Japanese, or did they speak English?

 

[Collective of Bears]

That's because it is!

ZSS' legs are invincible during the active frames.

A completely fair and warranted design choice.

 

[Jerodak]

Her legs are intangible while they are active, but they are vulnerable during the cooldown and can be hit. You can also Fsmash her uptilt if you block it, the timing isn't as hard as it sounds, it's actually got quite a bit of cooldown. I do believe her Fsmash and dash attacks can be punished in the same way if she's in range, otherwise a grounded down b or other punish option should work nicely.

 

[Zigsta]

So the Link MU might be getting a bit harder.

He can do his jab cancel infinite at 0% against us. :/

 

[MagiusNecros]

So the Link MU might be getting a bit harder.

He can do his jab cancel infinite at 0% against us. :/

Just read about that. And I think Link is the only one who can do something like that. I have tested with a bunch of characters and first part of their jab always pushes them too far away to do what Link does.

 

[EarthenPillar]

Just read about that. And I think Link is the only one who can do something like that. I have tested with a bunch of characters and first part of their jab always pushes them too far away to do what Link does.

Yoshi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upoVtW5mpWE

If anyone has a MU guide for me on Sonic would be great btw. It's too infrequent do I get to fight good Sonic players and unlike little mac there's a lot of special canceling involved. I want to know which of his approaches have confirm punishes besides the basics.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

So the Link MU might be getting a bit harder.

He can do his jab cancel infinite at 0% against us. :/

It's a powerful tool and I'm eager to find out how it changes Link's position. Other characters have, at best, jab frame traps or a simple true combo from a jab hit confirm. Even Yoshi's jab cancel is not a true combo. This should be a significant benchmark for Link.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yoshi:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upoVtW5mpWE

If anyone has a MU guide for me on Sonic would be great btw. It's too infrequent do I get to fight good Sonic players and unlike little mac there's a lot of special canceling involved. I want to know which of his approaches have confirm punishes besides the basics.

It's not the same. Link's jab lock keeps the opponent in place. Meaning that Yoshi and even Falco actually push the character or even themselves in a direction meaning it won't last forever.

 

[MrEh]

Don't let link Jab you. Jab him back. If it trades, then yay.


Also, this kind of sucks.

 

[Jerodak]

Zairs still tear Bowser to pieces. Even more so now that he's even taller.

A few things to note about Zairs.

First, it's not possible to fast-fall a Zair unless you do so before the Zair comes out, even better, it's not practical at all to Zair after fast falling from a short hop because it either won't come out, (Link/Toon Link) or the range will be pitiful (Samus/ZSS). Samus and ZSS can full hop to do a fast fall Zair with full range, Toon Link cannot because it'll barely come out and Link just falls way to fast. Samus and ZSS cannot hit a standing Bowser with short hop Zair even from close range because they jump too high, so they can only use it as an air-to-air walling move when you try to jump, otherwise you have till they land, which cannot be mixed up because they won't be able to fast fall, to punish them if you are on the ground. Link and Toon Link can hit standing Bowser with short hop Zair but they won't hit you when you're shielding because of how Bowser curls up in his shield. Also, Zairs are only actives at the tips, and are not active the entire time they are out, they lose active frames and become harmless after they are fully extended.

Now Samus and ZSS could just short hop then do a falling Zair from the peak of their jumps, but that gives it quite a bit more start-up and makes it easier to react, so Link and Toon Link have the most dangerous Zairs since they can just do it during the short hop to hit us, but even if they rising Zair, the zair will last during the entire short hop, so if you see a Link spacing Zairs at you, you could try to wait till it's fully extended then move in or, if you have room for it, you can try to run-in shield it then advance past since only the tip will actually hurt you; air dodge cancel specials would probably work too. Hopefully, this is helpful to anyone having trouble with Zairs in their match-ups.

Also, on Link's jab, Bowser's Jab 1 slightly ourtanges Link's and they are both the same speed. The jabs will only trade if you're both are in hugging distance and throw jab at the same time. I think learning how to make the most of jab clanks will be important in the match-up since we do return to neutral at the same time, and our fastest viable options from clank range will just clank again if we're simply mashing them out. It is possible that we could just clank till out of range but it'd probably suck to be fighting the Link that decides to just grab or Fsmash instead when he knows your jab won't hit him anymore.

 

[B!squick]

Oh hey, this got stickied at some point. I actually had trouble finding it because of that, lol.

Didn't see any names I recognize in Top 8 for Apex. You guys be slacking.