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Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

Jerodak

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Anyone having tips for a :4shulk: Matchup?

I met a great :4shulk: in FG today and he can really hit you hard. His air attacks outrange you and the one I fought had little to no landing lag after using Fair or Nair to pressure me. He just proceeded with his jab combo right when he touched the ground.

His Jump art also lets him hunt down and after Bowser in the air once launched for easy Fair followups.

Overall, I found Shulk really hard to deal with. the same guy switched to :4bowserjr: after a few matches and those felt a bit more even. But Shulk I cannot handle too well, won 1/maybe 6 battles...

Honestly I think Bowser does pretty well in the Shulk match-up. Shulk's range is good but he's not very heavy outside of shield and he can have trouble KOing without using smash. He also leaves some pretty significant openings that are easily punished. His recovery is also really bad, It's one of the easier edgeguards for Bowser because the first swing doesn't ledge snap so you just need to ledge bomb with the correct timing to beat it. Back airs and other aerials are kinda risky when he's recovering high because of back slash, so it's best to be careful when trying air to air edgeguarding. However, if you bait backslash out and shield it, then it's a free Fsmash.

His counter can be somewhat problematic when you first see it, because it's incredibly active so the punish timing is much different than other counters, but at the same time the large active window means he's spending more time actually countering so that's more time for you to pick whatever punish you want to go for, just don't take too long. Outside of that if you just space well and take advantage of his openings then you'll be able to win. Also, don't be afraid to stall when he uses a Monado art, generally when they activate an art it's because they had a plan to use it in some way. So when you start stalling, an impatient or desperate Shulk will be more willing to make mistakes, and you're making him use up one of his resources at the same time. Also when you have the lead, sit on it and wait, Shulk's approach options aren't that strong, and Bowser has a good defensive game. It's one of the best positions to be in, but if you're on FG just move around a bit and throw some jabs or something from a safe distance while you wait so you don't get kicked out.
 

Jerodak

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So I had a Charizard's flare blitz activate on my firebreath in a recent match, is this a frequent occurence?
 

MagiusNecros

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So I had a Charizard's flare blitz activate on my firebreath in a recent match, is this a frequent occurence?
Bowser Breath only has wind and no hitstun at the tip of the arc so Charizard could Flare Blitz and Armor through the rest of the Flame Breath that actually has hitstun. Much like how the Gordo keeps on going since each hit of Bowser Breath only does 1 damage.
 

Jerodak

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Bowser Breath only has wind and no hitstun at the tip of the arc so Charizard could Flare Blitz and Armor through the rest of the Flame Breath that actually has hitstun. Much like how the Gordo keeps on going since each hit of Bowser Breath only does 1 damage.
But this doesn't explain why flare blitz "Hit" the firebreath and went into recoil instead of just plowing through. I feel like it might have to do with the stage flare blitz is in, this was just after the blue shine right as he started moving forward, is it possible the armor doesn't appear right away? Although even that doesn't explain why it "hit" the firebreath.
 

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thanks for the help with the :4shulk: MU! Outstalling his arts really seems to be the key to victory here. Fire breath and OOS Up B work wonders here. Big thanks and happy new year!
 

MagiusNecros

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But this doesn't explain why flare blitz "Hit" the firebreath and went into recoil instead of just plowing through. I feel like it might have to do with the stage flare blitz is in, this was just after the blue shine right as he started moving forward, is it possible the armor doesn't appear right away? Although even that doesn't explain why it "hit" the firebreath.
Well what I know with FB is that initially it doesn't have armor but once Flame covers Zard's body it does. Except Zard's head only ever has heavy armor.
 

Jerodak

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So what you're saying is I should either USmash or SH DAir? Got it.
It'd be easier to just shield -> Foxtrot/Runstop/Roll(If they're airborne) -> Fsmash or Shield -> Running Upsmash

But if you have low shield then Sh Dair can work pretty well, and I've even dunk'd a few zards this way while they were trying to recover. I wouldn't recommend upsmash without a hard read though, it's a bit too risky in my opinion. With the Dair, even if you miss, zard's gonna be pretty far away from you, so you likely won't get punished.
 

MagiusNecros

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Just blocking Flare Blitz and Drop kicking him or even Bombing him is the better option honestly.
 

Anragon

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Just blocking Flare Blitz and Drop kicking him or even Bombing him is the better option honestly.
Dropkick requires you to be nearly perfect in your inputs. Otherwise Zard will be able to get-up and get invinci-frames before you hit him.

The easiest punish is running Bomb or Usmash as you said.
 

MagiusNecros

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Dropkick requires you to be nearly perfect in your inputs. Otherwise Zard will be able to get-up and get invinci-frames before you hit him.

The easiest punish is running Bomb or Usmash as you said.
Dropkick will require a good read. I've only done it once but after blocking I would use the Jab 1 momentum walk to Dropkick right after the invincible roll Charizard can do after FB gets blocked. Which I know when the invincibility ends since I also play Charizard.

But I try to go for Bowser Bomb whenever I can. Much safer and more reliable.
 

Jerodak

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Dropkick will require a good read. I've only done it once but after blocking I would use the Jab 1 momentum walk to Dropkick right after the invincible roll Charizard can do after FB gets blocked. Which I know when the invincibility ends since I also play Charizard.

But I try to go for Bowser Bomb whenever I can. Much safer and more reliable.
Fsmash doesn't require a read, you can land it before he has a chance to get up, it's guaranteed.
 

garkimbo

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How do you deal with Link or just projectile heavy characters in general? Link, Rob, Duckhunt etc. They're all giving me troubles. I feel like I could beat half these people I lose to, on a stage like Battlefield, where I have platforms to work with. It's a shame every stage in For Glory is just a FD copy.
 
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MagiusNecros

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How do you deal with Link or just projectile heavy characters in general? Link, Rob, Duckhunt etc. They're all giving me troubles. I feel like I could beat half these people on a stage like Battlefield, where I have platforms to work with. It's a shame every stage in For Glory is just a FD copy.
Powershield, Spotdodge, SH AD Cancel Specials, lots of Flame Breaths, and a lot of patience. Also. **** R.O.B.
 

Jerodak

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How do you deal with Link or just projectile heavy characters in general? Link, Rob, Duckhunt etc. They're all giving me troubles. I feel like I could beat half these people I lose to, on a stage like Battlefield, where I have platforms to work with. It's a shame every stage in For Glory is just a FD copy.
Duckhunt is actually pretty easy, it helps to remember that side B has a lot of end lag for duck hunt and that the can is pretty much like a gordo in that you can usually just hit it and it'll change directions. You can also hit the frisbee to break it, and the first two shots from the frisbee light gun will not flinch you until you're at incredibly high percents, so you can also just shield and run through it when it bounces up and only the non-flinching shots should hit you. When there's a gunman out, be aware of the range, it's not full stage, and it's good to not sit in shield and wait for them to shoot, because you'll just get grabbed and shot anyway when Duck hunt throws you. Instead, it'd be better to just get out of there or to go for a trade with duck hunt, since those shots aren't all that strong anyway if i'm not mistaken and you'll likely end up getting the better end of the trade and it will ruin the set-up. However, to avoid being in this situation to begin with, it helps to be close to duck hunt. It's a character that can zone well, but it's horrible at dealing with pressure. None of it's specials are safe at close range, and it can only rely on it's normals at that point to keep you way or get you off of them. When the duck's bill is extended for tilts or aerials, you can space for the duck to hit an extended hurtbox. If you get the opportunity, using down tilt on the can sends it flying pretty far and can often make the can hit duck hunt or just put it at the farther end of the stage where it's pretty much useless, just don't get thrown into it or something.

Link is pretty annoying but managable, his projectiles have low recovery so you'll need to be careful when trying to punish them, even when you powershield point blank, it's possible for him to roll away from your jab, so it's best to only throw a single jab just to see if it'll hit or not, then basically hit confirm the jab that way. There's also a little trick you could try which is holding the jab button and then holding shield after the first jab starts to come out. If the jab whiffs, because of a roll then you will just jab 1 to shield, then you can react out of shield to the roll if it's a roll behind you. Otherwise, if the jab hit, then it'll complete the jab series and you can go from there. There's a pretty big weakness to this strategy, and that's if the opponent shields, because it'll register as the jab hitting something and complete the jab series unless you release the jab button. Despite being a long range character, one of the annoying things about Link is the fact that he has a functional boxing game. His jab is fast, has range, and it can combo into some of his smash attacks. When you're up close, you can expect Link to spam this, and it's pretty irritating. There's also his roll and spot dodge which are both pretty good and you'll likely see a lot of roll behind to Dsmash, grab, or jab. We probably don't lose to Link up close but it helps to be aware that he isn't helpless at this range either. Another annoying thing about Link are his aerials which are actually pretty good. They are pretty fast, have low recovery, and the range, especially on up and down air can be somewhat deceptive. Those aerials are a bit wider than they appear, and Down air actually doesn't have much landing lag at all, so it's not as easy to punish as it used to be. He is by no means unstoppable in the air, but just like his ground game up close, you just have to be aware that he isn't helpless and be sure to respect the aerials. If he does a Down air and bounces off your shield, then do a shield drop to up tilt while he's hanging around above you. You can also use pivot grabs to deal with some of his aerials thanks to the amazing range on the pivot grab, and as always, you can use up smash if you feel like he'll try to surprise you with Fast-fall Dair. Once Link is offstage, it gets a lot easier, his recovery is fairly predictable and not that difficult to handle. Ledge-cancel bomb will pretty much cover anything that link can try offstage, just be on the lookout for bombs and tether recovery mix-ups.

In the case of R.O.B, you really just have to be very patient in this match-up. Don't get overwhelmed by how fast he appears to be, he actually has quote a few weaknesses that you can take advantage of. The first being that unlike Link, his up close game isn't that great, his smashes aren't as fast as they were in Brawl, and his spacing tools are not as good either, his grab range is laughably short, and generally his main goal when you get close will be getting away from you either by trying to hit you, usually with a ftilt or dsmash to get you off of him or by running away. Knowing what the player like to do in those situations can help you stay in once you get in. Another of Rob's weaknesses is while his aerials do have little recovery on landing, they have quite a bit of start-up, with the exception of Fair and maybe Up air, he needs a bit space to use aerials safely or he will risk punishment. Finally, when he is recovering, all you need to do is hit him away from the stage without letting him land, his recovery does not reset when hit, instead it works off of a fuel system. So if you keep him from landing or ledge grabbing long enough, his fuel runs out and he will fall helplessly to the bottom blast zone. Just keep in mind that he can attack out of his recovery to keep you from trying to do this, so be aware of that. If Rob is recovering low, and attempting to ledge grab, walk off to Back air works wonders.

Hope this helps!
 

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@ G garkimbo Expanding on what Jarodak posted about Link and ROB.

Link is forced to react in one of 2 ways once you get into a close neutral. Either they respect you by playing defensive (zoning you via retreating hitbox, performing a roll to create space, etc), or go all in (committing to an aerial, dash grab, etc). You need to anticipate whether your opponent respects you or not and act accordingly. This applies regardless of whether you're using Bowser or not, but in regards to Bowser, once you've broken through your opponent's zoning, that's when you'll benefit the most from Jarodak's advice.

ROB's more dangerous attacks all have start-up time to them, but very little end lag. While people will tell you to back off from ROB, I'm in a different camp. ZeRo says that you cannot stop pressuring ROB, and I completely agree with his advice. You need to stay close to ROB and stuff those dangerous options. Much like Diddy, the moment you stop pressuring ROB, the more ROB can do to take control of the match. Push yourself to test these limits and you will find your performance against ROB improving in the long run.

Heavy characters like Bowser exert an aura of control just by existing. You will intimidate simply by being near an opponent. Never forget that.
 
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Jerodak

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I found out in a recent match that it's possible to tech out of Luigi's tornado if he's near the ground. I don't know all the specifics, because it's the first time I've ever done it, but it seems somewhat useful.
 

S_B

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Finally played a really good Shiek yesterday: that combo is INSANE and can carry you from one side of the stage to the other with 50-60% damage in there. The only saving grace Bowser has in this matchup is that Shiek lacks any strong kill moves to get rid of you (especially when you can see Bair coming a mile away and Fair will be completely stale).

I found that, in the early hits of the combo, you could actually make it to the ground through DI, shield the next hit and punish with a fortress. Otherwise, you'll just need really solid fundamentals to deal with Shiek...
 

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The Shiek MU is garbage. Any relatively smart Shiek just thrashes Bowser sadly. I'm legitimately going to work on a secondary just for Shiek.

Since we're still very early in the game's lifespan I'll probably continue going Bowser to explore the MU more and to try out gimmicky stuff but it seems like an uphill battle. Every top level player I've discussed the Bowser-Shiek MU with agrees that not only is it Bowser's worst MU but it's one of the worst MUs in the game.
 

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First post outside of the introductory area, here I go~ I searched this thread semi-thoroughly and only found that apparently I must suck because seemingly this is a MU in Bowsers favor...but I'll ask anyway like the newb I am.

So I was totally professionally rustling a few non-royal peasants up, which went reasonably well until I came across this guy who kept proclaiming that he fought for his friends or something (silly, right?). But yeah, he essentially had the upper hand in a rather devastation manner which caused slight distress on my end as I kept attempting to overcome this hurdle multiple times - read: he bodied me hard and I kept bashing my head against the wall until he eventually on our fifth or so match just stopped attacking (to which I reacted with a double suicide and leaving the session, I don't like getting wins I don't deserve). This bugs me more than the usual guy-way-above-my-skill-level because he kept throwing these short hopped approaches at me I could do nothing against. Now I must admit I'm not much of an Ike player myself, I'll head over to training mode the next time I boot up Smash to learn his general moveset, but he kept short hopping one of his airs (I'm assuming fair or nair) which covered a large portion of the space in front of him and left literally no landing lag - I tried repeatedly to get a counter-attack into his landing but he always jab-combo'd me out of whatever I tried instantly, then lead into some fancy-butt combo that did at least 180% damage over the course of nineteen hits or kept me airborne with no proper way to return to solid ground other than stage-diving. To my great frustration and adding insult to injury, he seemingly grew bored during our fifth match (when I almost had him stripped of one of his stocks! *shakefist*) and I couldn't get anywhere with my head-wall-bashing. If you read this and it feels familiar to you because you just pwnz0rd a Bowser who tried to Lucy out of sheer desperation, get back here you lil' runt, I wasn't done with you!

How does a futile rushdown Bowser who's attempting to learn actually viable play - read: defensive Bowser - deal with this kind of hooligan? If our ground game is truly better than his, how do we keep him from hopping like a bunny rabbit, swinging its carrot around? Is there a way to DI out of his combo shenanigans or do I just need to not get dunked in the first place and live with the hefty punishment whenever I make a mistake?
 
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S_B

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The Shiek MU is garbage. Any relatively smart Shiek just thrashes Bowser sadly. I'm legitimately going to work on a secondary just for Shiek.

Since we're still very early in the game's lifespan I'll probably continue going Bowser to explore the MU more and to try out gimmicky stuff but it seems like an uphill battle. Every top level player I've discussed the Bowser-Shiek MU with agrees that not only is it Bowser's worst MU but it's one of the worst MUs in the game.
Oh, and I forgot to mention: if Shiek has needles charged, you're gonna get hit with them as you land and there's **** all you can do about it...
 

Collective of Bears

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How do you deal with Link or just projectile heavy characters in general? Link, Rob, Duckhunt etc. They're all giving me troubles. I feel like I could beat half these people I lose to, on a stage like Battlefield, where I have platforms to work with. It's a shame every stage in For Glory is just a FD copy.
Remember those big ol' turtle fists of yours can block a good chunk of the spammier projectiles. Jab and FTilt work wonders. I'm also a fan of using Flame Breath vs projectiles.
 
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S_B

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Can't you just Aerial Side B and go right into shield?
If the Shiek times it well, it doesn't matter because the needles will hit you before you actually hit the ground, sadly.

I suppose you can fast fall at the last moment, but the needles still come out damn fast...
 
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B!squick

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@ Meowser Meowser You know I've really never seen much Ike in this game. I imagine it's much like fighting Ganondorf. No projectile and no command grab even, so just do your best to be patient, shield constantly, and just wait for him to make a mistake. The key with that last part would be getting a feel for how vulnerable he is whenever he does something. And lots of Jab.

Also, you have Firebreath.
 

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Can't you just Aerial Side B and go right into shield?
Our toes are vulnerable and dangle down while we're in the air, asking to be hit by needles.

Every top level player I've discussed the Bowser-Shiek MU with agrees that not only is it Bowser's worst MU but it's one of the worst MUs in the game.
Haha I remember crying salty tears to you just a little while back. Only time I felt it was possible was when watching MrEh stuff Sheik fairs with custom dash slash. It's worth noting that Mario has a decent matchup against both Sheik and Diddy. M2K and ZeRo messed around with him and, among the top 10 characters, Mario really only struggles against Pikachu. If you're lookin' to grab a secondary, Mario's a great place to start.
 
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UltimaLuminaire

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@ B!squick B!squick yeah, it's preference. Mario has a worse recovery, but his combo trees are vast. Luigi has a better recovery and wildcard options in his misfire and shoryuken.

@ MagiusNecros MagiusNecros The problem occurs when you meet Sheik players that understand how to close a stock.
 
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Meowser

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@ Meowser Meowser You know I've really never seen much Ike in this game. I imagine it's much like fighting Ganondorf. No projectile and no command grab even, so just do your best to be patient, shield constantly, and just wait for him to make a mistake. The key with that last part would be getting a feel for how vulnerable he is whenever he does something. And lots of Jab.
Indeed it was the only Ike I've seen, none before or after. I guess them being so rare is part of what makes this MU hard for me. Either way I practiced a bunch with Lv9 AI so now I know at least what his moves are and that neutral B's hitbox covers a lot of air above him ( I could swear it only hit on the ground/close to the ground in brawl).

Also, you have Firebreath.
You know, now I feel stupid for never really using Fire Breath against him. Guess I felt too pressured to dare using something that slow, but it makes perfect sense in hindsight. I need to work on utilizing that move a lot more.
 

Jerodak

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Hey guys, I found out something pretty interesting today, it turns out that when you're recovering vs Villager, if he drops the bowling ball on you, then the very beginning of Air fortress can clank it out. This worked for me against a fresh, uncharged bowling ball. I imagine this is because the first hit of air fortress, unlike the ground version, is the strongest hit in the move, so it has the most priority. Think this might be worth a bit of testing?
 

MagiusNecros

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Hey guys, I found out something pretty interesting today, it turns out that when you're recovering vs Villager, if he drops the bowling ball on you, then the very beginning of Air fortress can clank it out. This worked for me against a fresh, uncharged bowling ball. I imagine this is because the first hit of air fortress, unlike the ground version, is the strongest hit in the move, so it has the most priority. Think this might be worth a bit of testing?
If someone can drop a Bob-omb and it clanks out on the first hit of Air Fortress then we might have something.
 

Jerodak

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If someone can drop a Bob-omb and it clanks out on the first hit of Air Fortress then we might have something.
That sounds a bit unreasonable, Bob-ombs rarely appear in competitive, while Villager's Fsmash is a very common edge guard in that match-up and is actually a very powerful projectile. Also, I do believe that explosions are trancendent and cannot be klanked by normal means, so that wouldn't work no matter how good the priority was unless the first hit was given shellguard.
 

MagiusNecros

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That sounds a bit unreasonable, Bob-ombs rarely appear in competitive, while Villager's Fsmash is a very common edge guard in that match-up and is actually a very powerful projectile. Also, I do believe that explosions are trancendent and cannot be klanked by normal means, so that wouldn't work no matter how good the priority was unless the first hit was given shellguard.
Well whatever you feel like testing is up to you. Villager's Fsmash is considered a Projectile and if Aerial Fortress clanks out Small projectiles on it's initial hit frame then that's probably why it got negated.

As for the Bob-ombs, we know Bowser's Jab and Ftilt can clank them out safely and do no damage whatsoever due to the intangibility.

You shouldn't be looking at things from a pure competitive outlook but rather an outlook that reaches to know the properties behind a given move. If you don't you possibly forego something that could have helped you. Every bit of knowledge counts. And Bowser needs all the tricks he can get.
 
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