Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Zigsta]

The Diddy I played after the tournament was Willyo (he had to withdraw from the final bracket since he had to go to work at 4:40 AM the next day). It was just a friendly set, but it was nowhere near as difficult as fighting ZeRo's Sheik in friendlies. The overall nerf to bananas definitely helps Bowser BIG time--you can just Firebreath to destroy bananas now.

 

[Jerodak]

I spent a good number of matches playing against a pretty good ZSS player who blew me up at first, but overtime, I managed to adapt and picked up a few things. The first being that her grab range is deceptively large and that you can't really run away from her dash grab. She's hard to challenge in the air, but it's not impossible with proper spacing, and as far as I can see Nair as a defensive tool is useless in the air to air situation. If you get grabbed, it can lead to taking pretty big damage, but she can't kill you unless she gets the Bair or up B read and it's possible to escape both of those when you're at kill percents, the same goes with backthrow down B set-up. So if you are making the right guesses and DI then you could probably live to absurdly high percents. Also, if she misses with the Up B either because you fell out or it just whiffed entirely, then you can land first and down b punish.

The plasma whip isn't as stupid as it was in Brawl, but it's still pretty dumb, it semispikes and can push you offstage, I haven't been killed by it or anything, and it's not like it wins the match-up, it was mostly just an annoyance for me. However, when you shield it, she is punishable, I was able to get side B and dash grabs out of it, but down B might work too. On the ground you're mainly worried about when she will try to come in with the grab attempt, but you can short hop over the grab and the tether so spacing short hop forward airs might be a good idea against the ground game, in the air she has pretty good mobility with the flip and her air movement, also her divekick recovers fast so you have to be on point with the punish, but it's not completely safe or anything. If she's starting to charge her plasma shots then you can running shield it, preferably so you shield next to her then do a shield drop punish to rack damage or K.O, the recovery is pretty fast, and the full charged blast can't be short hopped over because of how Bowser's legs hang down when he's in the air, you can fair through it, but that's only useful if it connects because of the hitlag you get when it clanks. If she Down B's into you and uses the kick, not the footstool, on your shield. Then she appears to be punishable until a pretty lengthy animation after she lands, free Fsmash right there, so if you can bait that out then more power to you. For the footstool out of the flip, we can probably full hop Fair or maybe Upair OOS because she can't do anything for a short while after but you'd have to be fast.

Edgeguarding her appears to be pretty much impossible without mastery of ledge trumping or a really strong read, you can't safely intercept her at tether range because she can flip over you, and she has a stupid long tether reach that lets her mix-up her recovery timing and ledge options so you sorta have to be careful of the tether recovery but if you get the ledge trump, forget about trying to ledge drop back air, I'm not even sure if that's a real combo on anyone. Anyway, when you do ledge trump succesfully, you impose a mix-up on her, when I got trumps she usually flipped to get back to the stage. Ledge jump back air might work here since it would intercept the trajectory, however if you see her go low for some reason then you can just stand up and go for the charged down smash if you feel like she won't hit you with the up B. Now if she uses the flip to recover, then it gets a bit easier, the flip is rather predictable, so you can intercept it with a bair or dair depending on where she places the flip.

That's just my personal experience though, Hope this helps!

 

[S_B]

Is it me, or does Bowser basically destroy Ike?

I've fought a few good Ikes, and even the ones who were clearly doing everything they could just didn't have the tools to really outdo Bowser's toolkit...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Is it me, or does Bowser basically destroy Ike?

I've fought a few good Ikes, and even the ones who were clearly doing everything they could just didn't have the tools to really outdo Bowser's toolkit...

On the ground Bowser wins this melee fight very easily.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I thought there were only character specific chain grabs, and I thought they were patched out, but I was wrong. Izaw shows Sheik's chaingrab at the end of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Tswo8Pimg

Or maybe I'm the only one that didn't know this. Either way.

 

[Zigsta]

I thought there were only character specific chain grabs, and I thought they were patched out, but I was wrong. Izaw shows Sheik's chaingrab at the end of the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2Tswo8Pimg

Or maybe I'm the only one that didn't know this. Either way.

That's awful. Not that Sheik needs that against Bowser.

 

[Smog Frog]

hello bowser mains

over at the ganon boards, we're discussing the bowser MU, would be appreciated if you could provide input

 

[TheGreatShal]

I dont think winning against Rosaluma is even possible. Shes just too good!

And I can't be the only one that has problems with Yoshi.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I dont think winning against Rosaluma is even possible. Shes just too good!

And I can't be the only one that has problems with Yoshi.

Bowser can beat Rosalina and Yoshi if you are a better player then the opponent though. Dropkicking Luma off the stage to it's death always seems to work for me. If you get an opp to use it without getting whacked by the puffball that is.

 

[TheGreatShal]

Bowser can beat Rosalina and Yoshi if you are a better player then the opponent though. Dropkicking Luma off the stage to it's death always seems to work for me. If you get an opp to use it without getting whacked by the puffball that is.

Yeah, they were both amazing, but man, talk about frustrating..

Does firebreath stop yoshi's eggs? He spammed that a lot and I couldn't get out of it, which led him to do his Side Smash.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Walk forward and power shield yoshi's eggs. If he's dumb enough to still throw eggs within a certain range, just dash attack him.

 

[Jerodak]

Yeah, they were both amazing, but man, talk about frustrating..

Does firebreath stop yoshi's eggs? He spammed that a lot and I couldn't get out of it, which led him to do his Side Smash.

Yes it does, but it's not something you'll want to use too often, Firebreath can deal with most projectiles in this game, so you can use it to help you break a spammer's momentum and push them into the edge but you should only use it during the right moments and not too often so they don't adapt to it.

Edit: I should probably also mention that Firebreath's start up is longer than most projectiles, be sure to consider that before you use it.

 

[Rend4125]

Why isn't this thread stickied?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Yeah, they were both amazing, but man, talk about frustrating..

Does firebreath stop yoshi's eggs? He spammed that a lot and I couldn't get out of it, which led him to do his Side Smash.

Just powershield the eggs and approach slowly.

As for Rosalina since she is a defensive character means you have to be even more patient then the Rosalina. And try to space Luma and Rosalina away from each other and basically bop Luma off and then bop Rosalina with spaced attacks. Try to stay on the ground. In the event you can't one shot Luma just punt it away and hope the Rosalina calls it back so you can get a quick hit in.

Good Rosalina's are going to be a tough battle.

 

[B!squick]

Why isn't this thread stickied?

Either because I made it.

*see: my guide on Brawl Bowser Board*

Or because we typically have to be dragged kicking and screaming to do anything more than biz casual match-up discussions making this topic not really that important.

Or both.

 

[Anragon]

Is it me or we actually do more damage to Bowser Jr. ?

For example, Fsmash does 23% normally and against Jr. it deals 27%. F-throw does 15% instead of 12%. Etc...

It's not even rage effect, i'm really serious. I didn't put ANY damage modifier on. Can somebody confirm this ?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Is it me or we actually do more damage to Bowser Jr. ?

For example, Fsmash does 23% normally and against Jr. it deals 27%. F-throw does 15% instead of 12%. Etc...

It's not even rage effect, i'm really serious. I didn't put ANY damage modifier on. Can somebody confirm this ?

Bowser Jr. takes slightly more damage if you hit him. He takes less damage if you hit the Clown Car. Odds are you hit Jr.

 

[Anragon]

Okay so Bowser only hits Bowser Jr.'s face because of his stupid hitboxes. Thanks man

I was like WTF Daddy correcting hard his child. But nope it is just Jr. mechanics.

 

[Jerodak]

Okay so Bowser only hits Bowser Jr.'s face because of his stupid hitboxes. Thanks man

I was like WTF Daddy correcting hard his child. But nope it is just Jr. mechanics.

Growing up without getting hit will never make you a man!

 

[B!squick]

I believe this is a very relevant video for this topic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4Efq9rCs_M

 

[MrEh]

SHOWTIME

Best Bowser voice.

 

[B!squick]

Yeah, I like that one, too. Shame it didn't show off his true power. That being his ability to eat extremely large carrots.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I really wish they gave Bowser that voice in Smash.

 

[B!squick]

I wish they didn't use that garbage TP Ganondorf again. NO ONE liked it and they even made a sweet as balls new look for Hyrule Warriors. Why couldn't we have that, Nintendo?

 

[Anragon]

Alright, i went to my second official tourney yesterday and placed only 24 out of 128. This is pretty meh and the reason I didn't go higher in winners bracket is Diddy Kong. I had ZERO knowledge of this character since the release of Smash Wii U. Though the DDK I fought was good I think I could do a lot better. Here's the mistakes I did :

-I got punished waaaaaaaaaaaaay too many times on my landings by a banana throw. And then he D-throw'd to eternal suffering.
-I had no idea how to punish his moves and which moves to use against his approaches (I noticed Jab destroyed thrown bananas. Firebreath too)
-My landings. Again. After his usual D-throw -> anything, I was simply helpless if I tried to get my foot back on the ground.
-No ideas how to edgeguard him. He went patiently to the ledge with Side-B>/Up-b

Really need some help. I don't want to be blocked by monkeys for my next tourney

 

[MrEh]

Are customs allowed? If not, prepare to have a rough time landing in general. There's like nothing Bowser can do on landing against a good monkey with a banana.

 

[B!squick]

Are customs allowed? If not, prepare to have a rough time landing in general. There's like nothing Bowser can do on landing against a good monkey with a banana.

Sounds like Tuesdays.

Yeah, Diddy is just one of THOSE characters. Boring to watch. Frustrating to play against. And of course he bodies Bowser like no tomorrow. Wish I had any sort of advice to give other than Jab and hope you don't get grabbed.

 

[Anragon]

Are customs allowed? If not, prepare to have a rough time landing in general. There's like nothing Bowser can do on landing against a good monkey with a banana.

Nope and I'm really sad about that. Lazyness is a strong argument against customs... (I mean unlocking them for all the wii u's used at the tourney).

Sounds like Tuesdays.

Yeah, Diddy is just one of THOSE characters. Boring to watch. Frustrating to play against. And of course he bodies Bowser like no tomorrow. Wish I had any sort of advice to give other than Jab and hope you don't get grabbed.

I thought Firebreath could be my best bet to cover my landings against Diddy. But then again, he waited patiently for my Neutral-B to stop and throw his banana at me. As long as he has his bananas, it feels like he has an answer for everything we can do.

I guess I have to learn a stronger character than Bowser for this stupid monkey...

 

[B!squick]

I suggest either Luigi or Yoshi. Go green or go home.

 

[Anragon]

Well, I love Luigi stupid D-throw so let's go with the plumber.

 

[RomanceDawn]

I've been playing a pretty decent Diddy lately and like every Diddy he could combo me in the air like it was nothing. After a while I just started Dairing to get out of it. Much of the time I would connect making him think twice about multiple up or back airs with in a single leap. He got wise to it eventually but it helped me quite a it a few times. It's certainly not enough to make the match up easy but it helps. Couldn't tell you the percentage though.

 

[Zigsta]

I really don't think Diddy's tough as Bowser. It's definitely a winnable MU for us.

How are you landing? Are you saving your second jump? A ton of Bowsers waste their second jump high in the air for no reason. Saving it gives you an extra precious mixup.

In general Bowser suffers from landing. Not as hard as in Brawl, but it's still his biggest weakness by far. Bigger than even getting camped. The best advice I can give on improving landings is mixing up how you fall. Record your matches and watch how you're landing after being thrown into the air. Are you trying to land near an opponent in order to counter attack, or are you trying to land away in order to move back in neutral? Are you airdodge happy? Dair/Bomb happy? Nair happy? Hell, I've seen bair and upair happy. Sometimes waiting to execute an aerial when you're just about to touch your opponent can work. In general it's safest to land away and proceed back to neutral.

 

[MrEh]

If your region allows customs, dash slash the monkey in the face.

 

[Jerodak]

I found out in a recent match that Nair can klank Ness's upsmash yoyo and hit him anyway.

 

[B!squick]

I found out in a recent match that Nair can klank Ness's upsmash yoyo and hit him anyway.

Probably works like Olimar's Pica-men. If you clash the little fellers you can still hit Olimar.

 

[Uncle]

I'm not proposing a MU chart or anything like that, but here's my gut feeling about Bowser's potential problem MUs right now.

Soft Countered-ish:
We lose, but probably only by a little bit:

Generally speaking, I think Bowser can beat any character in this game without extreme outplaying. In Brawl and Melee, that certainly wasn't the case!

 

[Zigsta]

I'm not proposing a MU chart or anything like that, but here's my gut feeling about Bowser's potential problem MUs right now.

Soft Countered-ish:
We lose, but probably only by a little bit:

Generally speaking, I think Bowser can beat any character in this game without extreme outplaying. In Brawl and Melee, that certainly wasn't the case!

I mostly agree with that list but would knock down Rosalina, Ness, and Mega Man.

 

[MrEh]

Rosalina isn't as bad as people think. We still lose it, but it's not a hard counter or anything.

From my own personal theorycraft, I feel that Sheik, ZSS, and Yoshi are probably the worst matchups until the stars align and Samus becomes popular again. LOL

 

[G-Guy]

Anyone having tips for a Matchup?

I met a great in FG today and he can really hit you hard. His air attacks outrange you and the one I fought had little to no landing lag after using Fair or Nair to pressure me. He just proceeded with his jab combo right when he touched the ground.

His Jump art also lets him hunt down and after Bowser in the air once launched for easy Fair followups.

Overall, I found Shulk really hard to deal with. the same guy switched to after a few matches and those felt a bit more even. But Shulk I cannot handle too well, won 1/maybe 6 battles...

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ G-Guy Do not leave the ground. Do not stop pressuring Shulk. Roll into him if you have to. His attacks all have some kind of start-up, and his Nair is either retreating or all-in. You have to respect it and guess when it's all-in. Don't be afraid of his throws. Practice avoiding his jump mode Nair follow-ups. If you can, gimp his recovery with run-off Bair. You got this.