Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[garkimbo]

Am I the only Bowser that has a difficult time with Ganondorf? I know, he's supposed to be super low on the tier list or something-- but I don't know what my deal is with him. I've lost to the last four out of five Ganondorf players I've met online.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Am I the only Bowser that has a difficult time with Ganondorf? I know, he's supposed to be super low on the tier list or something-- but I don't know what my deal is with him. I've lost to the last four out of five Ganondorf players I've met online.

Ganondorf is a matchup that can go either way. Bowser is huge and very susceptible to Flame Choke and there is little you can do to counter against it once it lands. You can tech but your rolls are terrible. You can GU Attack but Warlock Punch can tank the hit and smack you if you don't shield fast enough.

It mainly comes down to making your opponent strike first and punishing them for it. Which is a game both Bowser and Ganondorf play.

You'll have to use a lot of Fire Breath in this matchup.

 

[Jerodak]

As for the Bob-ombs, we know Bowser's Jab and Ftilt can clank them out safely and do no damage whatsoever due to the intangibility.

Detonating Bob-ombs safely due to intangibility is not the same as clanking them out, a clank happens when two hitboxes that follow the high-low priority principle meet. If they are within a certain percent range of each other then both attacks klank out, but if one is significantly higher, then only the weaker attack will be klanked out.

You shouldn't be looking at things from a pure competitive outlook but rather an outlook that reaches to know the properties behind a given move. If you don't you possibly forego something that could have helped you. Every bit of knowledge counts. And Bowser needs all the tricks he can get.

The reason I'm interested in this is because I want to learn about the properties of the move, so that kinda already is my outlook. I want to know if this is something that can be useful for certain match-ups and that requires knowing the properties of the move and which ways those properties can be used to Bowser's advantage. Being competitively minded or not really makes little difference except in perhaps the reasons why someone would look into an attack's properties in the first place. Anyway, if you have anything else to add on to this then might I suggest we take this to PMs? No point in derailing the thread with a personal discussion.

 

[MagiusNecros]

Nothing to add at this time. If something occurs during play I will bring it up again.

 

[S_B]

I miss the invuln frames at the start of fortress...

 

[MagiusNecros]

I miss the invuln frames at the start of fortress...

Well if we had Melee Giga Bowser's Fortress I'd be just peachy.

 

[Zigsta]

Haha I remember crying salty tears to you just a little while back. Only time I felt it was possible was when watching MrEh stuff Sheik fairs with custom dash slash. It's worth noting that Mario has a decent matchup against both Sheik and Diddy. M2K and ZeRo messed around with him and, among the top 10 characters, Mario really only struggles against Pikachu. If you're lookin' to grab a secondary, Mario's a great place to start.

He's definitely one of the characters I'm considering since he's pretty easy to play IMO. I'll likely just play whatever character I'm most familiar with other than Bowser who doesn't get utterly demolished by Shiek.

 

[MrEh]

Bowser/Sheik is one of those matchups where if Bowser had his old jab, the matchup would be effing even.

Sadly, he does not.

 

[Zigsta]

10000% agreed. Shiek is the number 1 reason I miss Brawl jab.

 

[MagiusNecros]

I think Bowser's Dream (of getting his old jab back) is a more fitting tune.

But then we get back to planning new strategies

And when we can use custom moves freely with the godly Dash Slash

 

[Uncle]

All of this delicious music is reminding me that I need to play Dream Team one of these days.

The Mario & Luigi series = too stronk

 

[S_B]

Well if we had Melee Giga Bowser's Fortress I'd be just peachy.

Brawl had those invincibility frames on startup though, right?

 

[MagiusNecros]

Brawl had those invincibility frames on startup though, right?

I dunno. Maybe. When Brawl was around I wasn't on Smashboards and I was all about Ganondorf. But now it's all about the 3 Kings and Meta Knight now.

 

[Jerodak]

Brawl had those invincibility frames on startup though, right?

Yes, it did. This is the first iteration where The I-frames are gone.

 

[Locuan]

Hey guys! We are discussing the Bowser Match-Up in the Lucina match-up thread! It would be awesome if you guys could help us out.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Air dodge cancel Fortress completely changes the dynamics of the DDD fight. Heck, air dodge -> uair or bair is already winning me matches I have no business winning. The jab frame trap is still annoying though. I don't like eating 80% once I've already lost my second jump. Luckily, if I can touch the ground in time I can shield -> jump OoS (assuming jab 1 or 2 hits the shield ASAP, otherwise rolling is fine). Still, taking 30% in the process does not make this matchup seem any easier.

Also, Gordo usage off-stage to cover ledge recovery should be PUNISHED on sight. There is no excuse for letting DDD do that for free. Run off, jump under him, and deliver some school yard justice. If you chicken out, at least FH Nair off-stage and DJ Nair -> fortress back. Worst case is you get hit by the Gordo while knocking it back, best case is you kill him with his Gordo.

 

[Jerodak]

I'm not sure if I posted this already or not but if Dedede lands on the stage with Up B, I find the most reliable method of dealing with it is to just stand near where he will land then just hop up as he's landing and use a back air. It's almost as good as a forward smash but you never have to worry about the stars, the same works against his dash attack.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ J Jerodak You can also run out of it and space yourself perfectly to run -> bowser bomb just after the stars disappear. It's a solid alternative, though I find that the Bair method is easier on the nerves. Typically, in the DDD matchup, both you and your opponent want to avoid landing on stage with up b when possible.

 

[Jerodak]

Spacing Up air properly against Mac is completely safe against the Slip counter. I just played a Mac who was trying to land from pretty high in the air, activated his counter with Up air, and watched him propell himself offstage and SD. We weren't even that close to the edge either. It seemed like he mostly SD'd this way because of the surprise factor or maybe a tech error, but I was still in the position to edgeguard afterwards. It probably won't always lead to gimps but it's nice to know that spaced up airs can avoid the counter completely, the same is likely true for Fair but I imagine you'd need to be a bit underneath him to avoid the hitbox as it moves forward.

Edit: Also, I've noticed that holding down when hit by Sonic's upsmash often allows Bowser to escape before the last hit. Anyone else notice that?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

@ J Jerodak Hahaha yeah, I tried to write about that to let people know. Sanic's usmash is funny, and it surprises people at tournaments when someone as big as Bowser escapes. Should be useful to know since opponents like to use the usmash to cover ledge options.

 

[Zigsta]

I keep losing to Peach and Yoshi.

What do you guys think about these MUs?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Peach and Yoshi? Stressful. The spacing required for either MU is difficult, and screwing up will drive you into a corner because you won't be able to take advantage of crucial windows of opportunity. A lot of the issue from Peach comes from the fact that her best approach options also happen to target our blind spots. Yoshi simply has a better pressure game in neutral.

Against Peach, use your roll for repositioning. Bowser does have a lot of options against a grounded Peach, and being in the right place once she needs to land for turnips is pretty much the entire battle.

Against Yoshi, it's important to figure out when he's gonna go for a grab mix-up. Yoshi's dash grab is very unsafe and his neutral b extends his face out, so if it gets spot-dodged, you'll have plenty of options for the punish. From the air to the ground, Yoshi's options are limited, so that's our time to shine.

 

[Jerodak]

I don't know the specifics, but I feel like Yoshi is the easier of the two.

 

[MrEh]

Generally speaking, Yoshi will just camp you all day and throw out stuff that he hopes you'll run into. Try and feel out the ranges that that the opponent will try to do specific things at. The important thing is to not slam into Yoshi, but rather try and check his options using your own. Do not get impatient. Do not rush things. Force him into the corner slowly.

Pivot grabs are a great check if you feel Yoshi will cover himself with Fair. Yoshi using Fair to cover himself or as a spacing tool is becoming increasingly common nowadays. Pivot grab is much better in this scenario compared to the usual up angled ftilt, since it has an absurd knack for snatching Yoshi out of his Fair hitbox. I can't make this up. It works.

Don't be afraid to run up and Usmash if you feel that you can plow through something Yoshi is doing. Yoshi has some absurdly big aerials, so if you can condition your opponent to swing at you, you can Usmash them. Conditioning players to swing at Bowser is not hard. You're Bowser. People love hitting you.

Keep in mind that Yoshi's crap often pushes you far away, so UpB OoS is a lot harder to land in most cases. However, it should be used to keep players honest. Don't forget you have it. A player that starts spacing well against Fortress will often start getting hit by run up Usmashes due to the spacing difference. Seems silly, but this is a thing that actually happens. This is especially true if Yoshi begins to cover himself with aerial neutral B, since Fortress and shielding in general is such a big deal.

Stressing again; don't be afraid to Usmash if you predict Yoshi is gonna do something. Even if Yoshi tries to fly into your face with neutral B, Usmash will still win in many situations. It just takes practice to figure out the situations in which it's appropriate.

Real talk though, this matchup is poo. With Dash Slash it's tolerable, but most people don't have the luxury of using it.



Against Peach, don't be afraid to Usmash EVERYTHING. Never be scared. Just DO IT.

 

[Huben Draknir]

I'm going to have to second shell guard being the greatest back off button as well.

I literally feel like Superman every time I Usmash through...everything... Counters, meteors, spikes, high priority attacks, specials, you name it.

With the right timing Usmash at worst stops there assault and at best hits like a truck. Can't go wrong unless you whiff it.

 

[Jerodak]

The early part of the duck animation for upsmash is also lower than Bowser's crouch. This is likely why it works so well in the some of the situations MrEh mentioned. That, along with the shellguard; It's very wind-back fsmash like.

 

[Zigsta]

Thanks guys--that advice is a real big help! I feel like whenever I lose in tournaments it's always to bad MUs that I don't play much--Diddy, Shiek, Falcon, Yoshi, and Peach. Those are literally the only characters I've been losing to.

 

[Collective of Bears]

Haha I remember crying salty tears to you just a little while back. Only time I felt it was possible was when watching MrEh stuff Sheik fairs with custom dash slash. It's worth noting that Mario has a decent matchup against both Sheik and Diddy. M2K and ZeRo messed around with him and, among the top 10 characters, Mario really only struggles against Pikachu. If you're lookin' to grab a secondary, Mario's a great place to start.

Is there anyone other than a Mario bro who does decent against Sheik? My Mario is pretty cheeks, and all the characters I play have crap MUs against Sheik. It's a hard life.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Is there anyone other than a Mario bro who does decent against Sheik? My Mario is pretty cheeks, and all the characters I play have crap MUs against Sheik. It's a hard life.

If you like going fast, you can use So- I mean Pikachu. It takes a lot of practice, but if you nail Pikachu's ATs, you're a god. Fox is also okay, especially if you like the Jab 1 + Jab 2 frame trap. Finally, there's Sheik. I mean, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, amirite?

 

[Cassius.]

I would definitely second USmashing everything Peach does. If she leaves the ground, just do it. There's no reason not to. This goes for any character that really attempts to approach in the air.

Why isn't this stickied, again? I keep forgetting this thread exists.

 

[Collective of Bears]

If you like going fast, you can use So- I mean Pikachu. It takes a lot of practice, but if you nail Pikachu's ATs, you're a god. Fox is also okay, especially if you like the Jab 1 + Jab 2 frame trap. Finally, there's Sheik. I mean, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, amirite?

Might have to try Fox. I'm not a big fan of Pika, and I certainly don't trust my backup Sheik to fight a dedicated Sheik main.

 

[B!squick]

@ Zigsta Don't feel bad. Everyone loses to Diddy.

@ Cassius. Because a Bowser Match-Up topic is fairly unimportant. Here's the skinny on how you win every match-up: You're Bowser, you can't lose. The end.

 

[Jerodak]

There's been quite a bit of talk about how annoying Link can be to fight, and I've personally met quite a few annoying links myself, so I decided to start doing some research.

Part of what makes Link most annoying, at least for me, is that his Jab is actually really good. It's the same speed as ours, has a larger disjoint, and it appears to have more advantage on hit. It's super annoying because of Link's jab shenanigans and because the third hit often gives Link plenty of breathing room to start spamming again.

However, I found out while doing some research that Link's jab only out-ranges ours at the third hit, Hit 1 of our jab out-ranges hit 1 of his and hit two out-ranges the first two hits of his jab. The difference in the range from our hit 1 and his is marginal, we just barely win, he's able to glancing blow by the time we can hit him with the tip of jab 1. Spacing just outside of jab 1 range might be the best place to stand when boxing because you can instead use jab in reaction to him trying to jab you because he does lean forward and it'll likely clank which returns both characters to neutral, or you might get a whiff punish. Ftilt might work for this as well, and the wind-back would also allow it to avoid the third hit if it happened to come out.

Speaking of clanking, because of how clanking was changed in this game, I feel that it's important to gain a better understanding of how it works, and more importantly, how we can best abuse the new clanking mechanics to our advantage and what to do following a clank. In the case of a Link player mashing jab, the options that are likely to work would be rolling or shielding. Roll does come out fast enough to not be jabbed out of it, and if they are just mashing, as players tend to do when clanking, then they will probably complete the full jab and you can get a punish. As for shielding, I did some testing using the new, and quite useful Hold 1/4th speed mode and it appears that if you are quick enough, you can get a guaranteed Fsmash off of blocking Link's third hit of Jab without needed to powershield.

Also, Link's boomerang recovers pretty fast, and shielding it near him then going for Jab OOS as fast as possible will be powershielded if he just holds shield afterwards. Powershielding the boomerang will allow the jab to work, if you're fast enough, but if you get a normal block on the boomerang, it's best to only throw just the first jab, or nothing at all, because he can simply powershield or roll for free and you'll likely get jabbed, grabbed, or down smashed. Fortunately, it appears that arrows don't have this problem, and normal shield to jab will work if you're fast enough.

My research, for the most part, has just begun, and is currently still ongoing. I'll make sure to add updates to this post if I find anything else that might be useful.

 

[MagiusNecros]

You can clank out the Boomerang and any arrow(even max charged ones) by punching them. You pretty much have to bait his sword attacks. They are strong but leave him wide open.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

If you're in range to worry about the cooldown for his boomerang, dash attack should be a serious option. Even if it clanks, you are likely to hit him as the boomerang comes out due to how big the start up is.

 

[Zigsta]

I lost to Falcon and Yoshi again yesterday. The curse continues. XD

But I beat a Diddy, and afterwards played the Yoshi who knpicked me out in friendlies for a longtime and was consistently winning. I feel a lot better about that MU now. It's a lot easier than Brawl Yoshi.

Falcon's janky for me. I almost always get a large lead and then get in a long string that kills me. I can't put my finger on it, but something feels really odd to me about that MU. Should have won yesterday but I SD'd game 3. Kinda tough when it's 2 stock. :/

 

[Jerodak]

@ Zigsta Yeah it seems like Bowser's match-up spread is worlds better this time around than before, and there are even a few where he clearly wins. My results vs Falcon have varied, but I guess what Bowser wants to do is whiff punish with pivot grab, bait out raptor boosts and falcon kicks, and keep Falcon in the air or offstage. Dair dunk and ledge bombs seem to work pretty well; I don't think he has the best options after getting trumped either.

 

[MrEh]

I think Bowser's spread is better in this game because the top tiers are no where near as polarizing as they were in the past installments. Bowser still loses to a lot of characters, but it's not like there are huge insta-lose matchups anymore.

I still maintain that Bowser is actually a worse character compared to his Brawl incarnation. It's just that he's relatively better in this new environment.

 

[Zigsta]

I still strongly state that Bowser's a lot better in this game but the nerf to jab and Klaw's range really hurts, and frankly only Brawl Bowser mains can appreciate how much that nerf hurts. Koopahopping gave Bowser a great mixup tool, and that's gone now too.

That said, people fear Bowser a lot more now. His KO power is respected, and that's his greatest buff of all.

I feel that he still loses a lot of his same MUs that he did in Brawl, but they're a lot more manageable. Thankfully some of the MUs we lost in Brawl I strongly feel we win now, ie Olimar and GW. Thanks, rage!

 

[Zediwonder]

Palutena boards are currently discussing the Bowser match up. We don't seem to have much experience against Bowser players overall so if anyone could provide us with their opinion on the match up it'd be a great help!

Thanks.