Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Watching Ganon struggle to get past our useless Fire Breath at regular intervals throughout the match is pretty entertaining. Then he wipes the smile off my face with a ganoncide. I wouldn't be angry at that if I wasn't playing as Bowser.

Ganon struggles against so many characters because getting in on them is so difficult. His abysmal running and air speeds do him no favors as a projectile-less character. The best he has going for him is Flame Choke. Mobile command grabs are some of the best moves in Smash Bros. Once you're caught, get ready for a guessing game of what get up option to use. The rolls are beaten by another flame choke, as is neutral getup. Getup attack beats flame choke, but if you use that consistently, all he has to do is get close for an Usmash OoS punish.

Ganon is another character with bad recovery. Prolific use of Jab 1+2 and Dtilt for the low launch angle can earn early stocks. Edgeguarding him isn't as easy as Falcon. Up B's grab has more priority, and if we get too close, he'll Flame choke instead for a ganoncide. Ledge trumps should be good though, as long as it's used as a mixup. I imagine Ganon getting trumped from the ledge can be responded to with a flame choke. Otherwise wait for him to do a ledge option. His frame data is worse than ours, so waiting and seeing what he's going to do before punishing works out more here than on other matchups.

I don't know about Bowser having advantage, I haven't fought enough Ganons. But it feels equal at the very worst. I've seen technical play of Ganon, and it's all pretty much focused on getting a flame choke. And keeping them at a distance for more Flame chokes.

 

[arcticfox_14]

Hey guys, I'm at a tourney now playing a really solid MK in the next round. I searched this thread and there isn't any discussion about the matchup. What should I watch out for and how should I DI out of the uair>uspecial combo? Any tips at all should help, I have zero MU experience...

Edit: Well that went about as expected. He's certainly the superior player, but specifically he was able to be patient and punish my mispaced approaches, and MK's frame data is so good he was able to shield opportunities I thought for sure I had the punish. His go-to approaches were DA and dash grab, as expected, but I was only able to pivot grab him out of it a couple times. I think I expected more aerial approaches so I was unsuccessfully attempting to space with angled f-tilt. My dtilt never caught him out of the first hit of uspecial at the ledge too, but that could have just been my timing. I'll likely see him again at GF if I can beat a couple good players (that I've historically edged out) coming down the pipe.

Edit2: I didn't. Lost a couple rounds later to a solid Diddy after some close matches for a top 8 placement. If I were more in prime condition it may have gone differently, but oh well. For future reference, shielding bananas isn't a great counter strategy; I had a little more success jabbing them out of the air and continuing to mash jab to catch the grab follow-up. I'll do some searching in this topic for more Diddy MU tips.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

arcticfox_14 I personally have been able to DI to the sides and air dodge or double jump successfully. You should practice preemptively smashing the stick to the sides so you can benefit from both hit stun shuffling and Smash DI for maximum chance at survival.

Of course, the other advice is don't get grabbed... but yeah.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

Just fought a pretty neat Robin today and was wondering how do you guys approach a retreating short hopping, projectile blasting Robin? Simply shielding their projectiles doesn't seem too optimal as it locks me in and short hop spacing quickly became a nice way to test my masochism. Should I walk and shield or is running and shielding preferable? I was able to fight some but once they locked me out, it was very hard to get in on them proper. Would jabbing or f-tilting the projectiles work at all?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Just fought a pretty neat Robin today and was wondering how do you guys approach a retreating short hopping, projectile blasting Robin? Simply shielding their projectiles doesn't seem too optimal as it locks me in. Should I walk and shield or is running and shielding preferable? I was able to fight some but once they locked me out, it was very hard to get in on them proper. Would jabbing or f-tilting the projectiles work at all?

The only projectile of his that's dangerous to shield is arcthunder because it lasts long enough for him to get a grab. It's also easier said than done if I recommended you dodge it entirely. The projectile is slow moving and large. Easily connecting with Bowser's large frame if your dodge was mistimed just a bit. If You're not in a full run or shield when arcthunder is coming at you, the best response is actually to run the hell away and block from a safer distance. Robin's run speed is poop, he can't follow it up with a grab if you're far away. Then he has to charge it up again, which you're going to try and stop. Running with your finger hovered over the shield button should protect you if you watch for his thunder animation as he's charging it. If you're within Dash attack range of him and he's not currently in a throw animation, input a dash grab instead, since his plan is to block and grab your attack. You could also skid stop and Dtilt. That move is kind of amazing on block, and he's got no OoS game to pay you back for losing over half of his shield health.

For arcfire, I believe you can dodge roll past or away from it with ease, but it takes timing. It has an initial hit and then goes into multihit. Wait for that first multihit before initiating dodge roll. The rehit rate on Arc fire is 8, and it takes 4 frames to become invulnerable during dodge roll. I advise you to dodge roll backward and continue walking toward him as the fire peters out. He'll keep pelting you with arcfires, and you'll keep shielding and avoiding them. You want him to think it's useless to try, because it's actually his best projectile to use on us. We can't jump over that safely. If he runs out of arcfire, then walking and aerial mixups just became much safer.

Don't try punching thunders out of the air. It won't help with Arcthunder and Arcfire - they both still ignite. Even if you successfuly struck smaller thunders, Bowser still stops in his tracks for almost as long as if you just shielded the attack. If Bowser had a faster, repeating jab, like a few other characters, the option would be worth labbing.

Keep him at close range once you've successfully closed the distance. His startup is comparable to ours with none of the damage output and killing power. He does have a sword, but with moves like those, it's hard for him to put faith in those attacks. When you've broken Robin's long range zone, he wants to grab you or use any move to put that distance between you again. You can't let that happen. He's helpless to our grapples, and to our edgeguards.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

The only projectile of his that's dangerous to shield is arcthunder because it lasts long enough for him to get a grab. It's also easier said than done if I recommended you dodge it entirely. The projectile is slow moving and large. Easily connecting with Bowser's large frame if your dodge was mistimed just a bit. If You're not in a full run or shield when arcthunder is coming at you, the best response is actually to run the hell away and block from a safer distance. Robin's run speed is poop, he can't follow it up with a grab if you're far away. Then he has to charge it up again, which you're going to try and stop. Running with your finger hovered over the shield button should protect you if you watch for his thunder animation as he's charging it. If you're within Dash attack range of him and he's not currently in a throw animation, input a dash grab instead, since his plan is to block and grab your attack. You could also skid stop and Dtilt. That move is kind of amazing on block, and he's got no OoS game to pay you back for losing over half of his shield health.

For arcfire, I believe you can dodge roll past or away from it with ease, but it takes timing. It has an initial hit and then goes into multihit. Wait for that first multihit before initiating dodge roll. The rehit rate on Arc fire is 8, and it takes 4 frames to become invulnerable during dodge roll. I advise you to dodge roll backward and continue walking toward him as the fire peters out. He'll keep pelting you with arcfires, and you'll keep shielding and avoiding them. You want him to think it's useless to try, because it's actually his best projectile to use on us. We can't jump over that safely. If he runs out of arcfire, then walking and aerial mixups just became much safer.

Don't try punching thunders out of the air. It won't help with Arcthunder and Arcfire - they both still ignite. Even if you successfuly struck smaller thunders, Bowser still stops in his tracks for almost as long as if you just shielded the attack. If Bowser had a faster, repeating jab, like a few other characters, the option would be worth labbing.

Keep him at close range once you've successfully closed the distance. His startup is comparable to ours with none of the damage output and killing power. He does have a sword, but with moves like those, it's hard for him to put faith in those attacks. When you've broken Robin's long range zone, he wants to grab you or use any move to put that distance between you again. You can't let that happen. He's helpless to our grapples, and to our edgeguards.

Thanks a ton Zapp. I wasn't actually aware that Arcfire could be escaped most of the time and just blocked it and in the rare occassion it stopped just short in front, I would get out. I actually DID try punching the projectiles during the fight but as you can imagine, thunder or fire on hand hurt quite a bit.

One thing I also noticed which helped a lot with the projectiles, which I got from your post detailing their function, was if I walked and tilted my shield forward. More often than not the projectile would consistently be stopped just in front of Bowser, giving me enough room to escape safely without getting trapped. Cheers again, I managed to get the upper hand on the Robin thanks to you.

 

[Jerodak]

Kooky Koopa using the shield tilt to make the projectile ignite early is actually brilliant and sounds like a great bait and mix-up.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Moving your shield forward really is a great idea for Arcfire. Since it's a projectile that has to ignite, perhaps you can have it ignite far enough away that Bowser won't be touching it as he drops shield. After all, his horizontal hurtbox is increased when in shield. This way, you don't have to dodge roll away and give up ground like usual.

 

[Cronoc]

The caveat here is the last hit of arcfire, which seems to have more range. Even if you tilted your shield and the rest of the multihit passed safely, the last hit (much like the last hit of many character's jab combos) has slightly more range and will knock Bowser back. So tilting the shield would only be helpful for increasing safety when rolling back, or allowing Bowser to simply walk/dash back rather than roll.

 

[Cronoc]

Edit: Shoutouts to Smashboards silly double post rule. Even after more than a week, and in a sticked thread, and as an attempt to move off-topic conversation to the proper place.

Here's my attempt at one because why not
I have no Brawler or Swordfighter EXP whatsoever so they're blank
http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/ymcelihkuxasjwvd/

Figured I'd take the matchup chart discussion to the appropriate thread and post mine. I didn't fill in a few because of lack of experience. And probably filled in a few that I shouldn't have. That's the thing with coming to a conclusion on matchups, it's all personal experience. If you haven't met a Mega Man that completely dominates Bowser like I have you might not agree with my matchup numbers. And some of the 50:50 or 45:55 matchups could be way worse, I just haven't met a player that made the matchup look bad yet. There are also things that might not make sense without explanation. Like, Wario seems pretty even, but he also has one chance to take a stock at low percents that Bowser doesn't.

Some of these numbers are a little optimistic. On the other hand, I have trouble assigning too many 50:50's, that's my bias. To paraphrase a post I made a bit back, when it comes to Bowser I consider there to only be 3 kinds of matchups - manageable, difficult and unmanageable. There are many characters in this game that, executed perfectly will beat Bowser every time. If Meta Knight consistently gets his 3-5 uairs to shuttle loop, then that matchup really sucks. If MK doesn't, the matchup isn't nearly as bad. If the counter brigade (Fire Emblem characters) don't edge guard Bowser to hell then the matchups aren't as bad. It tends to depend on how ruthless one's opponent is, and how willing they are to cheese Bowser to death in a way that leaves both players feeling bad. Because way too many characters have the tools to do it. They may choose not to, they may not realize they can, but in one way or another sometimes Bowser just relies on his opponent not taking advantage of his weaknesses.

After all that, here's my shot at making one myself: http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/jufiwhamnlpyxdge/

 

[B-Black]

Here's mine:

http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/sxjahlgqmuzewrfy/

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

What a neat tool. We should work on an official chart for this thread. After plenty of discussion of course. We never did the weekly "alright, discuss this character next". Probably because most of the comments people would have would fall under "I never really played against a serious one of those". I didn't think I could put a number to every matchup, but sure enough, I had all but a handful left after two minutes of reflecting on previous analysis of these matchups over the last year. Adjusted for a bit on some guys like Ike, Marth, Robin, and Zelda based on buffs to critical moves. I'd love to talk about our bad and especially good matchups. Every one that's not a 50:50 definitely had some consideration. I've spent hours labbing up every character for the purposes of various write ups and threads and in this game Information easily dwarfs experience. I could fight a player 5 times with Bowser and still not get a good analysis from them on what to do for the matchup. And the only break you get during a match to stop and reflect on what to do, is the five or so seconds it takes to respawn before your second stock. Never leave these MUs a mystery. Ask questions and you may learn something you hadn't yet thought of.

 

[33percentgod]

I played this really strange match up today and I saved some of the videos. I'm gonna upload to Youtube later. But it was against Link. He wasn't anything incredible because he would SD all the time and mis-time his jumps, but I'll be GD'ed if he didn't hit me with a smash and land those grabs EVERY time.

It's Link's throw to Up smash a guarantee every time against Bowser? He would get it over and over and over on me. The air dodge never kicked in quick enough nor the jump to get away. Doesn't help Link's grab is really long and Bowser is the size of half the stage...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

It's Link's throw to Up smash a guarantee every time against Bowser? He would get it over and over and over on me. The air dodge never kicked in quick enough nor the jump to get away. Doesn't help Link's grab is really long and Bowser is the size of half the stage...

Which throw? Uthrow to Utilt/Usmash might work at less than 10% on us. Dthrow is weight based, so it only really combos well on lightweight characters that fall fast, like Fox. And even then, I never seen it register a true combo in any situation. Maybe with rage.

For Bowser, I don't recommend spamming air dodges to escape throw combos. Not all the time anyway. For us, it takes four frames to become invulnerable, and air dodge landing lag is rough when combined with our moveset's slow startup and walk/run speed. Instead, double jump. That's a frame 1 action. Yes, you lose your double jump, but it's a hell of a lot safer than hoping your opponent doesn't succeed in baiting your air dodge. And the next time you come down, you'll have plenty of time to wind up and aerial or Side B to at least challenge them with. Heck, even falling on them with Dair is slightly safer on Block then airdodge landing next to them. Bowser is very unsafe when he's airborne, but your odds are still improved all around.

 

[A_Kae]

Hello, Bowser players! The Marth and Lucina sub-forum has begun matchup discussion and analysis on the Bowser matchup. If you have any input to add, or wish to fight against a Marth/Lucina player for matchup experience, please join us at the following link.

http://smashboards.com/threads/vs-bowser-matchup-discussion-and-analysis.423228/

And be sure to check the directory thread for the rules and guidelines.

http://smashboards.com/threads/matchup-discussion-and-analysis-directory.414156/

 

[S_B]

I have to second whoever had said that they feel ZSS is our worst matchup now...

Sheik at least needs to land a killing blow which is generally harder to do with good DI, but with ZSS' up+B, you can expect to die surprisingly early, and possibly off of just a few throws as well.

And it doesn't help that hardly any of her moves have any real lag on them, either...

 

[Tri10]

Gonna have to put a little insight of my own, cause why not.
http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/fypnmeshvwkbjadi/

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Gonna have to put a little insight of my own, cause why not.
http://smashcompendium.com/matchup-chart/fypnmeshvwkbjadi/

i fixed your avatar for you

 

[Tri10]

View attachment 84104

i fixed your avatar for you

Oh, thanks! The shadow was a little annoying to be honest.

 

[Cronoc]

I'm coming around on the Ike matchup, and not in a good way. For all the talk of what buffs Bowser could get, his moveset limits him. I can't think of any reasonable buff that would make the Ike matchup less nightmarish. He has huge disjoints in the air, a frame 4 jab, frame 7 dtilt which leads into combos... He wins in the air and on the ground, has throw combos, kills off a dash attack, and gets back to the stage for free every time. It takes extremely good timing to attempt a dair dunk during Ike's up b (which he's in charge of the timing of), and that carries a good risk of getting spiked myself. Nothing else can stop his up b.

Meanwhile, Bowser gets edge guarded to hell, whether with Ike's neutral b, runoff counter etc. This is a match where strings are rare and attacks that would normally work get stuffed by Ike's huge sword disjoint, leaving me in the position of having to needle Ike to death with jabs/dtilt/pivot grab. Ike, a character that often won't die until 130% or higher. Whiff anything big and you'll be eating a throw combo or dtilt to fair at least. There's also the problem of it being hard to see what Ike is doing when he's next to Bowser - staggering out his jab combo while he's practically inside my character model makes it extremely difficult to tell when I'm safe to drop shield or counterattack.

I really need to find a higher tier secondary for these sorts of matchups, I feel like I have to work twice as hard as the other player and it sucks. But I haven't found a top tier character yet that feels good to play.

 

[MagiusNecros]

You have to let Ike attack first because his counter is dumb.

 

[Big Sean]

I really need to find a higher tier secondary for these sorts of matchups, I feel like I have to work twice as hard as the other player and it sucks. But I haven't found a top tier character yet that feels good to play.

Try Ike. I've been playing him and the Bowser fundamentals really carry over. The new stuff to learn is like the tricky air game. Learning to RAR so fast and spontaneously will probably help with Bowser too hopefully.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

You have to let Ike attack first because his counter is dumb.

Our grabs eat counters, use those on approach. Cronoc Ike is basically us with a sword and no Fire Breath. Use Fire Breath, he has trouble getting over it without platforms. His recovery is a joke too, you shouldn't be failing to edgeguard it often. Aether properly placed for him to be at ledge height is extremely bair-able since the move doesn't strike behind him. Jump pre-emptively to get over the sword's hitbox, and time your Bair to cover that ledge, since he won't grab it until he starts coming down. It's a large time frame. And if you ever notice he's not using Aether from max range, you can Dair on the ledge itself and hit him as he comes up for an instant kill. Quickdraw recoveries can also lead to a kill, our F-tilt beats it thanks to its excellent hitbox positioning. The knockback from that move will probably put him far enough away that he won't recover from any percent. His Up B is just too bad for distance. But if precise timings aren't your specialty, A quick blast of Fire breath will suffice, it forces him to fall and use Aether instead, allowing you to refer to the previous advice.

Ike has no OoS game, and our powerful attacks have enough shieldpush to put him out of shieldgrabbing range, even if we're poorly spaced. Put on the shield pressure to make him grabbable. And if he's getting counter-happy, switch to your grabs and flying slam. When you short hop toward them, opponents don't know the difference between an incoming Fair or Flying Slam, Flying Slam eats shields and counters alike, and the shorthopped version beats spotdodges and rolls to boot. Fthrow and Bthrow to place him offstage - Ike hates recovering every day of the week. If he's coming down with an aerial, Usmash to beat it. Sword users cannot compute their attacks being beaten. Block punish all his moves. Everything but D-tilt, jab 1, and (potentially) his aerials are bombable out of shield drop. You can also go for less committing punishes via Dtilt and Jab. If he's crossing up to get behind you with an aerial, Fortress is the only guaranteed choice, but don't go for that if he's keeping spaced away from you.

 

[MagiusNecros]

In most cases though Ike I find is more favorable to us since he has to be where we want to be which is great.

 

[Cronoc]

Try Ike. I've been playing him and the Bowser fundamentals really carry over. The new stuff to learn is like the tricky air game. Learning to RAR so fast and spontaneously will probably help with Bowser too hopefully.

Ha RARs are already a big part of my playstyle. I actually started out as an Ike main for a couple weeks near launch, but that was before I got into the game competitively, and before Ike was any good. I'm really not used to approaching with nairs, that's kind of a universal problem for me. I'll think about it. I'm also thinking about training a Captain Falcon (edit: strike that, maybe ZSS) up or something... I don't know... The problem is, I have to like it. If I treated Smash 4 like work I could play any character, but then I may as well not play... when it's no longer fun I'm out.

Our grabs eat counters, use those on approach. Cronoc Ike is basically us with a sword and no Fire Breath. Use Fire Breath, he has trouble getting over it without platforms. His recovery is a joke too, you shouldn't be failing to edgeguard it often. Aether properly placed for him to be at ledge height is extremely bair-able since the move doesn't strike behind him. Jump pre-emptively to get over the sword's hitbox, and time your Bair to cover that ledge, since he won't grab it until he starts coming down. It's a large time frame. And if you ever notice he's not using Aether from max range, you can Dair on the ledge itself and hit him as he comes up for an instant kill. Quickdraw recoveries can also lead to a kill, our F-tilt beats it thanks to its excellent hitbox positioning. The knockback from that move will probably put him far enough away that he won't recover from any percent. His Up B is just too bad for distance. But if precise timings aren't your specialty, A quick blast of Fire breath will suffice, it forces him to fall and use Aether instead, allowing you to refer to the previous advice.

Ike has no OoS game, and our powerful attacks have enough shieldpush to put him out of shieldgrabbing range, even if we're poorly spaced. Put on the shield pressure to make him grabbable. And if he's getting counter-happy, switch to your grabs and flying slam. When you short hop toward them, opponents don't know the difference between an incoming Fair or Flying Slam, Flying Slam eats shields and counters alike, and the shorthopped version beats spotdodges and rolls to boot. Fthrow and Bthrow to place him offstage - Ike hates recovering every day of the week. If he's coming down with an aerial, Usmash to beat it. Sword users cannot compute their attacks being beaten. Block punish all his moves. Everything but D-tilt, jab 1, and (potentially) his aerials are bombable out of shield drop. You can also go for less committing punishes via Dtilt and Jab. If he's crossing up to get behind you with an aerial, Fortress is the only guaranteed choice, but don't go for that if he's keeping spaced away from you.

Thanks for the reminder Zapp. I've watched that video a while ago, but hadn't considered it's implications. If there's a weakness I have besides being old and having slow reaction time, it's that I'm sometimes not the most creative problem-solver. I'm still skeptical of the dair dunk - Ike can let himself drop pretty far below the stage before committing to the up b, making it hard to time - Bowser's 8 frame jump squat means without very quick timing (and probably an airdodge out of that jump, I end up getting hit by Ike's up b. This happens because Ikes always tend to go above the lip of the stage for what they consider easy, safe damage. In their mind, at worst it's shield pressure. I know I can jump ahead of time, but so far I haven't had luck with it.

But jumping offstage, then bair'ing back is something I hadn't thought of at all, I'll have to explore that. I'm just so sick of Ike getting back for free. Fixing that would make the matchup much better. I've been bair stage spiking people for a while, but only in certain situations, not to try to intercept their up b from behind. I wonder if there are any other recoveries we can do this to... maybe the other Fire Emblem characters, though timing would be more strict. I'd say maybe ZSS, but ZSS players so rarely use their up b to get back to the ledge...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

In most cases though Ike I find is more favorable to us since he has to be where we want to be which is great.

I wouldn't be so sure of an advantage. I mean it when I say Ike is basically us with a sword. I never stop to imagine what to do against another Bowser. We can't exploit Bowser's most basic weaknesses, and he has the same strengths. A tough fight no matter how you look at it. Ike is the closest to a mirror match you'll get outside of Bowser dittos.

I'm also thinking about training a Captain Falcon (edit: strike that, maybe ZSS)

Ike can let himself drop pretty far below the stage before committing to the up b, making it hard to time

I wonder if there are any other recoveries we can do this to... maybe the other Fire Emblem characters, though timing would be more strict. I'd say maybe ZSS, but ZSS players so rarely use their up b to get back to the ledge...

Falcon may be a bad call. He's a fast Bowser that still has trouble with projectiles and a worse recovery. Heavy weighted, no projectile, and a grappler. Possibly a better character overall and easy to pick up, but bad as a secondary for Bowser. The gameplan for fighting him is too similar. ZSS and Sheik are the current frontrunners, but you have to be prepared for a very disciplined playstyle and safe neutral game. That level of commitment makes them disadvantaged as a mere secondary - you don't want to fight practiced Sheiks with a less practiced Sheik. When maining a character like Bowser, it's best to think about what qualities in a secondary are wildly different. I've been theorizing that Kirby and possibly Game & Watch are good secondaries. Their lightweight floatiness is a nightmare for combo centric opponents, and they can crouch under projectiles, including the troublesome Fox lasers and Sheik Needles. Switching from Bowser to a character like this can really upset the opponent's strategy. But their actual usefulness and ability to fight top tiers is all theoretical. Not many people are exploring them, so you'd have a small, inexperienced knowledge base to draw from.

For Ike's UpB, I recommend studying its optimal distances in training mode. Get used to what the move looks like so you can guage where the sword goes and where Ike will be when he goes up to catch it. That position and time frame is what you're aiming for. The reason why we have such trouble simply Bairing and attacking recoveries is because we can never tell for certain where they'll end up and when. And ledge snapping cuts off our opportunities short. Ike's Up B has a set height that he ascends, and timing from the moment it starts. No mixups, and no ledge snapping untilt he starts descending. It's predictable and you can get behind it, that's why Ike's recovery is more punishable than the likes of most characters.

 

[Big Sean]

I'll also say that Ike may be a bad pickup for the same reasons that captain falcon is a bad pickup. Ike is probably better vs sheik and zss than bowser, but they still aren't good matchups.

 

[S_B]

I think Pika, Diddy, Sonic, or Mario would likely be a much better choice.

No, they're not heavyweights, but they actually have the tools needed to at least have a chance against the top tier.

 

[Cassius.]

Yeah, if you were suggesting Kirby/G&W simply for size, I would just go all the way and suggest Pikachu. A learning curve is involved, but certainly worth it. That's the best you're going to get from a small character lol. I don't think Pikachu is top 5, but is an absolute shoe-in for top 10.

Honestly (and obviously) any top tier is your best bet, and I'm not sure who/what Pikachu loses to, but yeah

 

[Sykkamorre]

Wrote a huge post but then my tablet froze sooooo short version go!

Things about ganon that need saying.

First off:
We dominate bowser in the air with ALL of our aerials. Uair and Nair especially.
Choke is death to you guys since we get more benefit from choking you than any other character apart from when olimar fails to tech (we get dsmash confirmed in him). Your only way to prevent dtilt is to tech roll inwards, but that is super risky for you since we know this and we have fsmash for early kills and dair>usmash>uair true combo for huge damage.
Offstage is our domain. Don't chase us and only attempt to gimp if we've used our DJ early since our uair stuffs every move offstage that you have.
Protip: Ganon's aerials are all lethal offstage. Everyone knows about our dair and the infamous tipman but Nair covers a huge area when fastfalled and has good horizontal range, fair also covers a large area but isn't quite as far reaching outward BUT has tremendous killing power when offstage. Don't forget about our bair either, which is one of the best bairs in the game fullstop. It's fast and immensely powerful, but with a smaller hitbox. Ledge trump bair is also one of our easiest kill options.

However:
You guys have the better ground game and movement speed. We may Win in the air, but you guys beat us onstage.
Your jab and ftilt are great options for meeting us ground to ground, while utilt is very versatile and one of your only ways to beat us if we approach with a spaced aerial.

You guys know your strengths better than me, who only uses bowser on the side so I won't lecture you guys on that but I figured that I should Clear up some of the info that people seem to think about ganon.

 

[S_B]

FYI, Cloud's recovery doesn't actually snap to the ledge:

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

S_B It can snap if it's reversed, or at least that's what the Cloud boards are saying.

 

[S_B]

S_B It can snap if it's reversed, or at least that's what the Cloud boards are saying.

Gonna have to see some video evidence of that because I just tested it and that's not at all consistent with what I found.

You can definitely reverse it, but even while making sure not to be holding up, Cloud doesn't snap, just like Kirby's Up+B. If you sweetspot it so the end of the rising portion stops right at the ledge, he'll grab fairly quickly, but he's definitely not snapping like Bowser or D3 snaps on rise.

My guess is that a hitbox right above the ledge is still going to hit him, and I've definitely Dtilted a Cloud to death already. MAYBE with immaculate precision, Cloud players can rise to just below the ledge where they'll still grab it without someone swatting them away, but it'll be tough.

I think I understand why this is the case, though: Cloud needs to suck somewhere because he's pretty much awesome everywhere else. He has a bit of difficulty comboing, though, and doesn't have any confirm setups that I've seen yet (which is good news for Bowser).

But from my experience, he gives Bowser a VERY hard time in the neutral...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Recovery that doesn't snap on the way up? I want to Dair dunk this. But what about the limit version? Will that ledgesnap?

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

I went and tried it. You can't snap on reverse for Cloud's Up B.

Zapp Branniglenn Not only does limit Up B snap, but it's got excellent speed and flexibility in angle.

 

[S_B]

Recovery that doesn't snap on the way up? I want to Dair dunk this. But what about the limit version? Will that ledgesnap?

Correct, it does.

It's possible to push him offstage into a situation where his normal recovery would've saved him but he's going to have to use the LB because he has no choice.

If we've forced Cloud to use his LB for recovery, we've at least made him spend a limit break, which is not as good as him losing a stock, but is better than getting killed by his LB's mini-KO punch...

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Correct, it does.

If we've forced Cloud to use his LB for recovery, we've at least made him spend a limit break, which is not as good as him losing a stock, but is better than getting killed by his LB's mini-KO punch...

Exactly what I was thinking. Use low commitment moves like Jab 1+2 to force that Up B, then we can continue surviving until 150%. Dude seems to have issues getting kills without limit break, and that's a huge red flag for a character's ability to fight Bowser.

 

[Cronoc]

Cloud is disappointing as a character and I'm completely unconcerned about the matchup. Because he never ledge snaps, I imagine a well timed dtilt will be the death of him anytime he's offstage without a limit break, unless it has super armor I'm unaware of. Flame breath could do the trick too. Even if finishing touch can kill relatively early (~70% on the ground, less with rage), it can be blocked, and anytime Cloud is offstage he practically has to use his up b to recover because his jumps are so bad. By the way, Cloud doesn't jump as high when he has a limit break charged... which only exacerbates his problems. But I've gone on about Cloud to great length in other places. He won't be changing the meta, he won't ever make top 8 at a national without a patch, and he'll be incredibly rare to run into in tournament. He's just not that good.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Zapp Branniglenn That would be ideal. However, looking at what a Kuraudo player could optimize in their gameplan, I can't help but feel impressed. Fsmash is quite fast for the knockback that it has, and Kuraudo's UAir is a solid aerial for juggling while possessing legit kill power. As far as neutral is concerned, Kuraudo's Nair and DTilt are fantastic at creating pressure and, combined with Limit Charge being lagless, his pressure game isn't too shabby.

Kuraudo should not have issues attaining limit. He gets gauge for playing poorly and for playing well. The idea is to keep him out of position to use his optimal limit breaks, as well as abuse his lack of options against shield. However, say he does get someone at the ledge? Like ZeRo already proposed, Finishing Touch covers pretty much every option but waiting.

 

[S_B]

Cloud is disappointing as a character and I'm completely unconcerned about the matchup. Because he never ledge snaps, I imagine a well timed dtilt will be the death of him anytime he's offstage without a limit break, unless it has super armor I'm unaware of.

It doesn't. I've Dtilted a Cloud to death in a similar fashion as the one that got FBed to death in the video.

That said, a good Cloud can be INSANE in the neutral. Bowser has very few options for shutting down an aggressive Cloud.

It's like they took the best parts of Shulk, LM and Ike and slapped them together to make Cloud while only letting his recovery be his weakness.

That said, he's not Sheik-level or anything, but his ability to space so well just makes fighting him a gigantic PITA...