Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I'm back and forth on Battlefield as the optimal Bowser stage. I like it because Utilt, Usmash, and grounded Bowser Bomb not only reach the lower platforms, but cover quite a bit of them at the same time. The large blast zones accent how long Bowser can stay alive and make use of rage. And early kills with Flying Slam was the deal breaker for me. Now that we have some other means of killing vertically, it doesn't matter what stage. And staying alive for longer due to blast zones doesn't matter much if Bowser is spending most of his High % life recovering and continually getting knocked back out there. Platforms themselves are generally more of a boon for other characters than Bowser. ZSS and Meta Knight have extremely good control over Uair strings into Up B when they can land on a platform to refresh jumps. Plus early % bowser Bomb punishes often miss because of the platforms being in the way of the target, who wasn't hit high enough. Dreamland pretty much has all of the boons of Battlefield, you just have to watch out for the wind blowing. I think I heard from others that getting blown off stage while in the middle of a Fortress can kill you.

Final Destination might be the best stage. Fire Breath is best there with the lack of verticality, top tiers don't like it, the stage's large length lets us stay alive long if we keep center stage. The only issue is no landing mixups due to the absence of platforms. Either drift over to the ledge, land with Flying Slam, or do something risky.

 

[Big Sean]

Definitely a constant struggle but what ended up deciding is that I don't want a situation where a light character is living much longer because of the large stage. Even if I can personally live longer, the 170-220 I can live at on battlefield is just me being edgeguarded for 50%. I don't see that being super valuable. I'd rather kill early and die around ~150 on dreamland.

 

[G. Stache]

Hello to the Bowser boards! The Luigi boards could use your insight to the MU, as it has most likely gotten a bit better for Bowser. If you have any advice, don't hesitate to contribute. We could use all the advice that you can give. If interested, click the link below!

http://smashboards.com/threads/luigi-match-up-discussion-thread.382918/page-13

 

[super fan bros]

It is how MU? lol

 

[---]

http://smashboards.com/threads/match-up-discussion-vs-bowser.427402/

The M2 board is looking at Bowser next. Was always an interesting match up, but with the new patch I thought it was a good time to discuss the two seemingly big winners of it. We'd appreciate any thoughts and feelings you all have on this particular match up.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

http://smashboards.com/threads/match-up-discussion-vs-bowser.427402/

The M2 board is looking at Bowser next. Was always an interesting match up, but with the new patch I thought it was a good time to discuss the two seemingly big winners of it. We'd appreciate any thoughts and feelings you all have on this particular match up.

I play both 95% of the time I play Smash. As I and many others have said on there, it's a pretty even MU, just depends on who makes more mistakes.

On a brief sidenote, can anybody tell me what the Charizard v. Bowser MU is currently like in 1.1.3? I'm sure people have discussed it before but I'd like to know sooner rather than later.

 

[Adamas]

Extra post for extra space, just in case. And while I'm here I'll get the discussing started. [clears throat] ****, Little Mac. Any ideas how to deal with him? Because so far it seems like all he has to do is not jump and he'll win.

A well spaced perfect pivot f-tilt could work well, as it has decent knockback and it comes out rather quickly.

 

[raromero89]

Anyone have advice vs a good robin? I played one the other day and had the hardest time getting any momentum going.

Also, is there any way we could get a separate link for each character?

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Anyone have advice vs a good robin? I played one the other day and had the hardest time getting any momentum going.

Also, is there any way we could get a separate link for each character?

Robin will want you closer than you think. Bait and Punish him, or count his tomes, then use the Bowz and hug him.

Edited for typos

 

[Deleted member]

Guys, I've been really struggling with the Roy MU, especially against very aggressive Roys. I feel like I just can't get an opening at all and have little room to breathe. Bowser just gets juggled for days once Roy gets a grab on him and it's a hassle to land against him due to his crazy fast ground and air speed. Any general pointers against Roy?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Guys, I've been really struggling with the Roy MU, especially against very aggressive Roys. I feel like I just can't get an opening at all and have little room to breathe. Bowser just gets juggled for days once Roy gets a grab on him and it's a hassle to land against him due to his crazy fast ground and air speed. Any general pointers against Roy?

Roy has a considerably difficult time fighting Bowser. Other projectile-less sword users generally have a playstyle centered around spacing, but Roy doesn't. He's always coming to us, since he gains nothing by hanging back. So every ground approach can be hit by a jab, and every air approach can be beaten with OoS Fortress or a reactive pivot grab due to his low jump height. Also, his grab combos don't work on Bowser due to being weight-based. We can double jump to avoid any Dthrow followups. And if the stage has platforms or a nearby ledge for us to mixup landings with as we come down, his passable grab game is completely useless here. Our Fire Breath is also handy for free damage and pressuring him to not try a bait and punish style of play, which is his best bet for Bowser.

When Roy does finally get in, you'll have a rough time getting him off. Landing mixups with platforms are key, and retreating to a ledge using DI and your double jump can save you from a lot of unnecessary damage. But his edgeguarding game isn't very good, so unless he lands an amazing read with Fsmash, we live for an exceptionally long time most stocks. And his fast falling nature makes him combo food for the new Uthrow.

 

[Deleted member]

Roy has a considerably difficult time fighting Bowser. Other projectile-less sword users generally have a playstyle centered around spacing, but Roy doesn't. He's always coming to us, since he gains nothing by hanging back. So every ground approach can be hit by a jab, and every air approach can be beaten with OoS Fortress or a reactive pivot grab due to his low jump height. Also, his grab combos don't work on Bowser due to being weight-based. We can double jump to avoid any Dthrow followups. And if the stage has platforms or a nearby ledge for us to mixup landings with as we come down, his passable grab game is completely useless here. Our Fire Breath is also handy for free damage and pressuring him to not try a bait and punish style of play, which is his best bet for Bowser.

When Roy does finally get in, you'll have a rough time getting him off. Landing mixups with platforms are key, and retreating to a ledge using DI and your double jump can save you from a lot of unnecessary damage. But his edgeguarding game isn't very good, so unless he lands an amazing read with Fsmash, we live for an exceptionally long time most stocks. And his fast falling nature makes him combo food for the new Uthrow.

Thanks a ton for the advice! I'll be sure to keep this in mind whenever I face Roy. Now that I know that double jump makes me escape his throw combos, what should I do when I'm landing? Immediately fastfall?

I saw you said earlier that Battlefield is a very good stage for Bowser. How does Roy fare there?

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Thanks a ton for the advice! I'll be sure to keep this in mind whenever I face Roy. Now that I know that double jump makes me escape his throw combos, what should I do when I'm landing? Immediately fastfall?

I saw you said earlier that Battlefield is a very good stage for Bowser. How does Roy fare there?

I don't play Roy, so I don't know what his preferred stage picks are. I'd wager he doesn't like Battlefield much because he gets nothing out of the larger blastzones with that abysmal recovery. His approaching patterns, jump height, and fast falling make him mostly a horizontal oriented fighter, and Battlefield is the most vertical legal stage along with Dreamland.

I mentioned an emphasis on platforms because you asked how to land and their presence makes for a landing mixup when launched vertically by a move, or escaping a followup with double jump. Bowser will not be in tumble after double jumping, so you can hold down to pass through a platform, or don't and land on it instead. Opponents can't easily prep optimal strategies for covering both. Also remember that if Bowser ever is in tumble, you can avoid teching by instead using Side B, which is lagless upon landing. You can use early to put out the grabs hitbox just before landing, or use it at the very last moment to make the opponent expect a tech chase while Bowser is suddenly standing upright in a neutral position. But a nearby ledge is even better than a platform. If you drift to a position directly above it, you can Bomb to the ledge to reach it faster in a way that can't be challenged. Unless they have a counter, like Roy does. But I've yet to play an opponent who has enough Bowser MU experience to pull off that counter. They're never there in time. Bowser is pretty safe at the ledge because Roy has nothing to use that covers any of our ledge options consistently. Plus we can let go of the ledge and double jump onstage with Side B as a fifth option.

 

[pitfall356]

God, is it me or is the Shulk / Ike MU looking absolutely horrible? Hard for me to get a word in edgewise with these two outranging me and outspeeding me with their autocancels and huge hitboxes. Bowser's floaty and tanky nature compliments their buffs and it feels just horrid to be pushed left and right across the stage by these two, and I often can't find anything I can do to avoid this. It's either constant shield pressure, catching my roll, or grabbing once I'm conditioned - which is often random and can't be predicted anyways.

Help me out, team. I just can't figure it out.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

The Rosalina sub-forum is analyzing Bowser again this week. Here's the link to the page if you have anything to contribute.

http://smashboards.com/threads/405498/

 

[Adamas]

Guys, I've been really struggling with the Roy MU, especially against very aggressive Roys. I feel like I just can't get an opening at all and have little room to breathe. Bowser just gets juggled for days once Roy gets a grab on him and it's a hassle to land against him due to his crazy fast ground and air speed. Any general pointers against Roy?

Perhaps if you were able to get the timing right, you could zone an aggresive Roy with Bowser's neutral-b. (I mention timing because Bowser's neutral-b loses its "flinch" closer to the edge of the flame) Other than that, you could try and stop his approaches with Side-tilt as it has some sort of fancy hitbox--the one where you are not damaged by an attack if it hits a certain part--that could be used to counter Roy's aggressiveness. As for the air portion, I'm really not sure what to say; Bowser is at his weakest when his is in the air. Hope my (incredibly) limited knowledge helps.

 

[DavemanCozy]

We're discussing Bow-Wow again. We got no contributions from this board when we discused him, so hopefully we'll see some this time now that he has the "Koop-Hah"
http://smashboards.com/threads/all-...-kirby-ganondorf.393061/page-12#post-20640252

vs

 

[BarSoapSoup]

God, is it me or is the Shulk / Ike MU looking absolutely horrible? Hard for me to get a word in edgewise with these two outranging me and outspeeding me with their autocancels and huge hitboxes. Bowser's floaty and tanky nature compliments their buffs and it feels just horrid to be pushed left and right across the stage by these two, and I often can't find anything I can do to avoid this. It's either constant shield pressure, catching my roll, or grabbing once I'm conditioned - which is often random and can't be predicted anyways.

Help me out, team. I just can't figure it out.

I, too, have a really horrid time dealing with a half-competent Ike or Shulk (Don't get me started on Cloud...). Ike has so much priority on his moves that his U-Air, U-tilt and U-Smash can sometimes go straight through our disjoints.

Ike tends to like his aerials though. He seems like the yin to our yang - his aerial game is scary good, but his ground game only has a few exceptional moves. OoS shield Fortress can be very helpful on him, but other than that, I can't say much...

 

[MagiusNecros]

Cloud's really dumb. I would know. I can pick him up and go to town like nothing. He is just way faster then he should be. It's sickening.

Limit Cross Slash is like his best move. So we gotta watch out for that.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

The buster sword is probably heavier than Ragnell, and Ike is heavy and muscular, yet frilly Cloud is faster and dumb, yea.
However Bowser can screw up his non-Limit recovery pretty bad. We got breath and Down tilt.

 

[MagiusNecros]

The big thing with LB Cross Slash is this move is the interrupt moves of interrupt moves. From anywhere.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

We know Cloud is a less than stellar matchup for Bowser. We need tips on Ike.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

Agreed. I find the Cloud matchup against good ones pretty even, but Ike is a serious problem.

On my side, Lucas is the character I struggle the most against as Bowser. Seriously this is a pain.

 

[pitfall356]

Fighting Cloud is always painful. I haven't had so little fun fighting a character since fighting Link zone spam.

Ike's and Shulk's aerials are difficult to deal with. I wonder if shellguard is the key.

 

[Rucent]

The Sonic Match Up Thread is currently discussing Sonic vs Bowser! We would love it if you gave us your input on the match up!

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...-bowser-greninja.390575/page-12#post-20768483

Thank you! :D

 

[33percentgod]

The Sonic Match Up Thread is currently discussing Sonic vs Bowser! We would love it if you gave us your input on the match up!

http://smashboards.com/threads/soni...-bowser-greninja.390575/page-12#post-20768483

Thank you! :D

I've given up on the Sonic MU. There's literally no way Bowser stands a chance. The worst Sonic player can still body Bowser, I'm completely and forever convinced. Bowser can't do anything but stand there and hold shield and hope Sonic screws up. Every one of Sonic's move will rush down Bowser and juggle him for hours. Every spin dash that connects turns into you being juggled for 3 years and your entire stock being depleted.

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

The only thing Bowser has in this matchup is Fortress beating Sonic's neutral B from above, lol.

 

[super fan bros]

It must be one of the worst MU for Bowser. Sonic is much faster than him and can easily escape the combo ground of Bowser. Sonic also has a very good combo set which is perfect to Bowser given its huge hurtbox and has also a better recovery.

Bowser has relatively little option against him and can take that to the limit Sonic has some trouble KO. But the MU must be of 20-80 for Sonic easy

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Seriously? I feel like I'm asking a brick wall for matchup advice. Forgive my frustration but no word on the Bowser-Ike matchup, even though two people have asked about it?

 

[super fan bros]

The MU Bowser-Ike is of 50-50 I think

On the one hand Ike has good combo which are even more effective on Bowser saw his hurtbox has overall a little less lag and has also a better recovery.

On another side Bowser is faster overall a little more powerful a better knockback in his shots and his son combo Uthrow is very effective on Ike


50-50 I seem to be a good MU

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Seriously? I feel like I'm asking a brick wall for matchup advice. Forgive my frustration but no word on the Bowser-Ike matchup, even though two people have asked about it?

To a lot of us, Ike is old news. They invited us to their side for the discussion and we were quite convinced the MU was even under the basis that it's basically a ditto match. We also have wonderful edgeguards against him and far more reward off a grab. I also wager you can break through his short hop aerial zoning with a running Usmash or running shield to Fortress, or play it safe with Fire Breath to make him come to you. It's the rare matchup where if you don't want to approach, nobody is forcing you. He's also got no OoS game, so as long as you're spaced enough to avoid his shieldgrab, a lot of our moves can go unpunished on block as you cover yourself with jabs and pivot grab.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

To a lot of us, Ike is old news. They invited us to their side for the discussion and we were quite convinced the MU was even under the basis that it's basically a ditto match. We also have wonderful edgeguards against him and far more reward off a grab. I also wager you can break through his short hop aerial zoning with a running Usmash or running shield to Fortress, or play it safe with Fire Breath to make him come to you. It's the rare matchup where if you don't want to approach, nobody is forcing you. He's also got no OoS game, so as long as you're spaced enough to avoid his shieldgrab, a lot of our moves can go unpunished on block as you cover yourself with jabs and pivot grab.

What kind of edgeguard options do we have? I feel like with great aether and Ike's seemingly better air-game that edgeguarding him is difficult.

 

[super fan bros]

Otherwise, which has the MU Bowser-Ganondorf?

 

[Dε√ilj∦o]

What kind of edgeguard options do we have? I feel like with great aether and Ike's seemingly better air-game that edgeguarding him is difficult.

Back air him as he tries to recover low with Aether.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

What kind of edgeguard options do we have? I feel like with great aether and Ike's seemingly better air-game that edgeguarding him is difficult.

You could have found out by reading the discussion in the ike boards. For Quickdraw, Ftilt consistently beats the move for a kill, even at mid %. It has great range and comes out in a way that we don't trade or lose against his proximity detector, and you have a generous five active frames in case you were just a bit early. But if you don't want to risk being too late in hitting him, Fire Breath also beats the move before he reaches the ledge, and forces him to fall to Aether height. In this phase 2, Short Hop Dair or Bowser Bomb at the ledge win against aether with consistent timing. All you need is to time Bowser's jump for him to be in the air as the sword is coming up. Alternatively, you can run off the ledge as the sword comes up, and time a Bair as he ascends, he has no super armor at the point where he's moving up, and the proximity he has to the stage often makes it so the stage spike is untechable.

Basically, you want to practice against these recovery options. If you do, Ike will never successfully grab the ledge. And if he does grab the ledge, Fortress to cover ledge options so you can send him back out there for another try. Getting him offstage is also easy, because jab 1 + 2, Ftilt, Dtilt, and Bair have the low angle necessary to get him offstage for these quicker kills.

 

[Blue Banana]

Hi, the Olimar board is now discussing the Bowser matchup. Any input is appreciated.

 

[arcticfox_14]

Been searching around and it doesn't look like the G&W matchup has been discussed at all here. I haven't found one I couldn't beat, but there have been a couple I've had enough trouble with that I would accept advice.

The problems I see: GW excels at juggling and frame trapping, two of our weaknesses. When being juggled I either have to stop playing Smash Bros and start playing "Land and Get Back to Neutral Bros" or hope to trade with an immaculately timed f-air.

His neutral B is troubling, and I feel like I'm missing a punish opportunity but I'm not sure if there's a reliable way to do it. Well timed short hopped fire? This is especially bad when we're on ledge. Roll into a hot pan or eat sausages that cover get-up, ledge drop, jump and attack. Hm, decisions...

His smashes all seem safe on shield. Maybe one or two of them can be punished with down-B? The armor on u-smash, ugh.

He seems pretty edge-guard proof due to his up-B. Is he intangible the whole time? Seems safer just not to mess with it.

Finally even with poor landing spacing his aerials seem safe on shield (specifically thinking of d-air here); jab comes out fast enough to clank, then beat fortress OoS.

On the plus side he's light and we koo-pah kill him in the low 70's, but I'd prefer more of a game plan leading up to that point. For instance, would a good strategy be to patiently force him toward the ledge so he has less room to maneuver? He's pretty at home on the ledge since a ledge-dropped up-B to d-air reliably gets him some breathing room, though. What do you guys think?

EDIT: Forgot to mention if the GW is smart (ie, playing safely using GW's floatiness) both f-air and b-air are immune to pivot grabs on reaction due to their good range and GW's ability to fade in and out before landing.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Been searching around and it doesn't look like the G&W matchup has been discussed at all here. I haven't found one I couldn't beat, but there have been a couple I've had enough trouble with that I would accept advice.

The problems I see: GW excels at juggling and frame trapping, two of our weaknesses. When being juggled I either have to stop playing Smash Bros and start playing "Land and Get Back to Neutral Bros" or hope to trade with an immaculately timed f-air.

His neutral B is troubling, and I feel like I'm missing a punish opportunity but I'm not sure if there's a reliable way to do it. Well timed short hopped fire? This is especially bad when we're on ledge. Roll into a hot pan or eat sausages that cover get-up, ledge drop, jump and attack. Hm, decisions...

His smashes all seem safe on shield. Maybe one or two of them can be punished with down-B? The armor on u-smash, ugh.

He seems pretty edge-guard proof due to his up-B. Is he intangible the whole time? Seems safer just not to mess with it.

Finally even with poor landing spacing his aerials seem safe on shield (specifically thinking of d-air here); jab comes out fast enough to clank, then beat fortress OoS.

On the plus side he's light and we koo-pah kill him in the low 70's, but I'd prefer more of a game plan leading up to that point. For instance, would a good strategy be to patiently force him toward the ledge so he has less room to maneuver? He's pretty at home on the ledge since a ledge-dropped up-B to d-air reliably gets him some breathing room, though. What do you guys think?

EDIT: Forgot to mention if the GW is smart (ie, playing safely using GW's floatiness) both f-air and b-air are immune to pivot grabs on reaction due to their good range and GW's ability to fade in and out before landing.

G&W can be difficult. When I play against G&W I try to play a game of spacing and make more use of tilts and jabs rather than grabs because, as you made mentioned, he has a lot of multi-hit moves that can safely beat our grabs. Practice with jab follow-ups?

Thankfully, with G&W being very light, most of our moves can KO pretty quickly since they launch out and up. The Koo-Pah is useful but not necessary.

If getting grounded again is troublesome, remember you can always Bowser Bomb to the ledge, which is fast and can ensure a few moments of invincibility. Just don't do it too often and keep mixing up how you recover. Neutral B is one of his most frustrating tools to overcome and to be frank I'm not quite sure how to overcome it.

 

[Zigsta]

GW is one of Bowser's easiest MUs. Play simple and grounded, and just shield or jab everything he does.

 

[CreamyFatone]

Hey everyone,

I'm sorry if this has been mentioned before, but I haven't been able to find any discussion on the Bowser/ZSS matchup. I find that I never really know what to do against ZSS except punish whiffed grabs and powershield her paralyzer into a dash grab. I know it probably doesn't look good any way you look at it, but there has to be something Bowser can do besides inevitably getting u-air into boost kicked to death.