Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Hitman JT]

We might want some opinion from Le Troof on this - he played the character throughout S@X 136 and got to Grand Finals with her. He might have some other good notes regarding the Bayo MU.

Don't get hit lmaoooooo
70:30

 

[Kooky Koopa]

I just encountered a rather vicious Pacman on FG a moment ago and for the life of me could not do anything about his use of the trampoline in the neutral. Essentially he would use his hydrant as normal but would then use his trampoline point blank to launch me and to get himself in the corner of the stage. The problem is the trampoline was between him and the end of the stage which, at the time, I couldn't think how I was meant to get near him without exposing myself. When I did try to attack him, even if I did try to hit him with a f-air, I was beaten back from an air attack of his own or his fruit. He would also frequently run up to me while the hydrant was active and use the trampoline aggressively.

I know the outline of the MU, steal his fruit, destroy the hydrant but this trampoline was quite a different ball game. Any advice?

 

[Cronoc]

I just encountered a rather vicious Pacman on FG a moment ago and for the life of me could not do anything about his use of the trampoline in the neutral. Essentially he would use his hydrant as normal but would then use his trampoline point blank to launch me and to get himself in the corner of the stage. The problem is the trampoline was between him and the end of the stage which, at the time, I couldn't think how I was meant to get near him without exposing myself. When I did try to attack him, even if I did try to hit him with a f-air, I was beaten back from an air attack of his own or his fruit. He would also frequently run up to me while the hydrant was active and use the trampoline aggressively.

I know the outline of the MU, steal his fruit, destroy the hydrant but this trampoline was quite a different ball game. Any advice?

It's hard to give specific advice without seeing the matches. Generally, I would say you shouldn't be afraid of the trampoline. It isn't a huge damage dealer, and once it's out on stage it is both a hindrance and liability to both players. On Bowser's side, it allows for lagless falling aerials. You can dair, bomb, flame breath etc onto it and quickly have opportunity for another option.

Pac-Man players partially survive by their opponent's fear of their tools. The opponent often doesn't know what to do about the hydrant, feels threatened by the trampoline etc. I suggest you play with these tools yourself as Bowser whenever Pac-Man gives them to you. See how various attacks launch the hydrant in different ways. Jump on the trampoline and try various falling attacks out. Pac-Man may need some chasing, so get comfortable with the barriers he'll put in place. It sounds like you just needed some more time against that player to figure it out.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

Thanks Cronoc. He didn't stick around for too long but he was certainly a cut above what I had faced before in regards to Pacman. Next time I meet another sharp one, I'll see what I can do with Pacman's tools. Cheers for the advice.

 

[mraham]

Fire breath makes the ground a hot zone. (literally!) Only other option he's got to go around that is jump, and we all know what happens then. *chuckles*

I think Bowser's f tilt might outrange him, but i'd have to check.

yeah but he could counter

 

[GerudoKong]

Somebody direct me to where the Robin Matchup is discussed on this thread? I did really poorly today against one, even with battlefield as my chosen stage.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Somebody direct me to where the Robin Matchup is discussed on this thread? I did really poorly today against one, even with battlefield as my chosen stage.

http://smashboards.com/threads/carrot-me-bro-the-bowser-match-up-topic.372268/page-22#post-20666297

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Have we pretty much covered all the possible matchups? Or do we still need to reassess a lot of characters now that we're in the final game?

 

[GerudoKong]

Does anyone know how angled up ftilt interacts with Ness' Fair and/or Nair? I know ftilt has some amount of intangibility but I'm not sure if it beats the disjoints on those two moves. If it does beat them, I feel like that would be a useful option in the matchup.

 

[pitfall356]

As hard as I try to get angled ftilt to help deal with sh aerial spam, I just haven't been able to use it effectively. I'm not sure it helps.

 

[Jerodak]

It helps, but it's not the only anti-air option. Walk away uptilt is good. Run under upsmash rewards good reads. Back air controls air space really well and is one of Bowser's best air to air counter pokes. F-air and nair control a lot of air space. I usually find that if Ness is using f-air or b-air too often, it's really easier to end stocks with back air because sll I need to do is get a beat on his aerial timing and wait for him to whiff something at the right range. Same goes for the ones that like to abuse airdodges.

 

[Kooky Koopa]

I just bumped into a really good Duck Hunt on FG and was pretty much at a loss what to do. Essentially he would bombard me with a crazy amount of projectiles while also covering his wall with air attacks to hold his position which made even attrition a pretty poor option. I had serious issues too in both landing and simply keeping the gap closed in the rare cases that I managed to get in on him. I have provided a video link below where I was fortunate to get in on him when I did, any advice would be greatly appreciated in regards to what I should be doing in the neutral and in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17L9Vnlq9dw&feature=youtu.be

 

[GerudoKong]

I just bumped into a really good Duck Hunt on FG and was pretty much at a loss what to do. Essentially he would bombard me with a crazy amount of projectiles while also covering his wall with air attacks to hold his position which made even attrition a pretty poor option. I had serious issues too in both landing and simply keeping the gap closed in the rare cases that I managed to get in on him. I have provided a video link below where I was fortunate to get in on him when I did, any advice would be greatly appreciated in regards to what I should be doing in the neutral and in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17L9Vnlq9dw&feature=youtu.be

Well I don't know much about that matchup, but what I do know is against any projectile spammer the automatic FD stage choose for FG gives them a big advantage; on top of that, FD is also a bad stage for. I have a much easier time playing against campy characters on smashville or dreamland. So don't feel too upset about the MU, it's mostly the stage that works against you.

 

[CreamyFatone]

I just bumped into a really good Duck Hunt on FG and was pretty much at a loss what to do. Essentially he would bombard me with a crazy amount of projectiles while also covering his wall with air attacks to hold his position which made even attrition a pretty poor option. I had serious issues too in both landing and simply keeping the gap closed in the rare cases that I managed to get in on him. I have provided a video link below where I was fortunate to get in on him when I did, any advice would be greatly appreciated in regards to what I should be doing in the neutral and in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=17L9Vnlq9dw&feature=youtu.be

DH's main strength I think is his ability to whittle down his opponent's shield and options. The most significant part of his projectile game is the can, because it's a kind of attack that a creative player can pressure you with in any situation. There is a custom move for the can in which it is shot back and forth, and in that situation it is literally impossible to drop shield.

What you want to do is try to disrupt the flowchart nature of the can setup. You can try to d-tilt the can at him once it's out, but more ideally you'll be close enough to him so that you can run-up shield the can as he kicks it so that it blows up in his face and you can follow up with a bair or if he's too far just cover landing options. If you're a bit too far consider dash attack, there's a good chance it'll hit him on the way up, or otherwise just get rid of it.

Once you start doing this, he'll be scared of spawning can while you're close, and might start mixing up with his long range jab, or even better pick a more defensive option like roll. If this starts happening, congrats this matchup is now doable. But still terrible because it still requires Bowser to be on point with shield and almost never get a grab.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

So, how do you guys think we match up against Zard in 1.1.5? He's received a lot of noticeable buffs to his aerial, airspeed and weight.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Not much has changed in the MU. The air speed is nice, but Bowser still has enough speed to drift to the ledge safely. Landing lag reduction doesn't really matter that much since neither character wants to approach the other in an air to ground situation.

Also, this is really not an MU any of us worry about encountering in tournament...

 

[BarSoapSoup]

It isn't something I worry about, if that is something you're implying, haha. I am very comfortable playing against Zard. Just curious

 

[GerudoKong]

The most dangerous thing in the charizard matchup continues to be the upB near the ceiling. Even against a heavy like bowser, it can still kill early.

 

[constable lemon]

Charizard's got some good aspects in the matchup. Spaced well, forward air and down tilt are both very safe pokes against Bowser, and his forward air is noticeably faster than ours while still being just as strong. Charizard's flame breath is also very good at pressuring our recovery, and it's a lot easier for charizard to gimp or even spike Bowser than it is for Bowser to do so to Charizard. Bowser definitely has stronger punishes and kill moves, but Charizard is no slouch in that department either. I'd say it's a pretty close to even matchup, you don't want to underestimate a skilled Charizard player. Play it with the mindset of a Bowser ditto.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

Bowser dittos are hilarious. Unlike an actual Bowser ditto, we don't have to fear instant destruction in neutral at all percentages against Charizard. You haven't seen what Zigsta does in these Bowser dittos. You don't know the fear.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I think our forward air has a wider range, but I could be mistaken.

 

[atticusfinch7]

Have recent nerfs to ZSS brought us to a slightly more even matchup?

 

[super fan bros]

Charizard's got some good aspects in the matchup. Spaced well, forward air and down tilt are both very safe pokes against Bowser, and his forward air is noticeably faster than ours while still being just as strong. Charizard's flame breath is also very good at pressuring our recovery, and it's a lot easier for charizard to gimp or even spike Bowser than it is for Bowser to do so to Charizard. Bowser definitely has stronger punishes and kill moves, but Charizard is no slouch in that department either. I'd say it's a pretty close to even matchup, you don't want to underestimate a skilled Charizard player. Play it with the mindset of a Bowser ditto.

For me, Charizard is slightly favored in this matchup. Charizard is faster, better flamethrower, better recovery, better reach in his shots, he has generally less of ending lag than him, he has some good combos on him and he can sometimes the spike because the recovery of Bowser is very predictable.

For air attacks:

Nair: >
Fair: >
Uair: >
Bair: >
Dair >

After Bowser is better than Charizard on few points. He has a bit easier to put K.O, he boasts better of the rage effect, his combo Uthrow, is a good tool against him and generally has a better neutral game.

I think than the matchup Bowser/Charizard should be of 60-40 for Charizard.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

For me, Charizard is slightly favored in this matchup. Charizard is faster, better flamethrower, better recovery, better reach in his shots, he has generally less of ending lag than him, he has some good combos on him and he can sometimes the spike because the recovery of Bowser is very predictable.

For air attacks:

Nair: >
Fair: >
Uair: >
Bair: >
Dair >

After Bowser is better than Charizard on few points. He has a bit easier to put K.O, he boasts better of the rage effect, his combo Uthrow, is a good tool against him and generally has a better neutral game.

I think than the matchup Bowser/Charizard should be of 60-40 for Charizard.

Interesting points, but I don't think Zard has the advantage. Despite having better frame data than Bowser and an easier time off-stage, Zard still suffers from god-awful traction, in addition to all the weaknesses a super-heavy already deals with. 20 frames of lag on Zard's aerials is a lot, even if it's better than Bowser. As Luminaire said, it's essentially a Bowser ditto, except Bowser can ruin Zard in neutral. Zard's bad traction very much hurts his OoS game, which is a shame because he has some good out-of-shield options.

As for your comparisons of aerials, I would switch the advantages on U-Air and B-Air. Bowser gets a lot more time to use U-Air and it is a safer combo finisher than Fly, while Charizard can space well with his B-Air and overall gets more use out of it than Bowser. Keep in mind that comparing aerials also doesn't make one character better over another, especially since Bowser is a serious force to be reckoned with on the ground and has a superior ground game over Zard. Bowser has a clearly superior pivot grab and, being a grappler character, that benefits Bowser immensely.

Being faster and having longer reach does not determine that one is definitely better than the other because otherwise, Samus would be better than Bowser.

 

[super fan bros]

Interesting points, but I don't think Zard has the advantage. Despite having better frame data than Bowser and an easier time off-stage, Zard still suffers from god-awful traction, in addition to all the weaknesses a super-heavy already deals with. 20 frames of lag on Zard's aerials is a lot, even if it's better than Bowser. As Luminaire said, it's essentially a Bowser ditto, except Bowser can ruin Zard in neutral. Zard's bad traction very much hurts his OoS game, which is a shame because he has some good out-of-shield options.

As for your comparisons of aerials, I would switch the advantages on U-Air and B-Air. Bowser gets a lot more time to use U-Air and it is a safer combo finisher than Fly, while Charizard can space well with his B-Air and overall gets more use out of it than Bowser. Keep in mind that comparing aerials also doesn't make one character better over another, especially since Bowser is a serious force to be reckoned with on the ground and has a superior ground game over Zard. Bowser has a clearly superior pivot grab and, being a grappler character, that benefits Bowser immensely.

Being faster and having longer reach does not determine that one is definitely better than the other because otherwise, Samus would be better than Bowser.

Ah yes, the traction! But despite that, I do not think it can really influence the matchup. I do not think we can really talk about a ditto Bowser. Bowser is mainly played on the clinch, while Charizard is played on the Midway (between his flamethrower and his hitbox disjoint).

Yes as I said Bowser a better neutral, but it's the only thing where Bowser is really greater at Charizard. For the air attack I think have reason. The Uair of Charizard is also powerful than that of Bowser but Charizard is invincible during the stroke. For the Bair, that of Bowser has a bit more of lag, but he is slightly more faster and he is more powerful.

The air attacks are of great importance (especially in this matchup). Charizard will have little trouble at edgeguard Bowser between his second jump and especially with his Dair given the predictable recovery of Bowser. Bowser can edgeguard Charizard more or less good, but Charizard does much better on him.

Bowser has a very good command grab, but Charizard also. That of Bowser should be better, but not by much. The speed is fairly significant as the reach. That let of see exactly than Bowser must almost always to fight close combat, then Charizard can to fight mostly at midway.

And I think than Samus has the matchup to Bowser

 

[S_B]

Have recent nerfs to ZSS brought us to a slightly more even matchup?

Slightly, maybe? It's perhaps a bit harder for her to get the Uair > Uair > Up+B now, but all in all she needs to tack on ~10% more damage to still do what she did before.

And though her weight nerf helped slightly, the real problem is still going to be that this is a character that's never going to stop short hopping when played correctly so Bowser is going to be eternally trying to guess what she's about to do.

Basically, she can short hop around and bait whatever, then punish accordingly the moment you commit to anything more than jab1, and I'm pretty sure she can still short hop right over jab1 and n/b/fair you in the face. :\

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Ah yes, the traction! But despite that, I do not think it can really influence the matchup. I do not think we can really talk about a ditto Bowser. Bowser is mainly played on the clinch, while Charizard is played on the Midway (between his flamethrower and his hitbox disjoint).

Yes as I said Bowser a better neutral, but it's the only thing where Bowser is really greater at Charizard. For the air attack I think have reason. The Uair of Charizard is also powerful than that of Bowser but Charizard is invincible during the stroke. For the Bair, that of Bowser has a bit more of lag, but he is slightly more faster and he is more powerful.

The air attacks are of great importance (especially in this matchup). Charizard will have little trouble at edgeguard Bowser between his second jump and especially with his Dair given the predictable recovery of Bowser. Bowser can edgeguard Charizard more or less good, but Charizard does much better on him.

Bowser has a very good command grab, but Charizard also. That of Bowser should be better, but not by much. The speed is fairly significant as the reach. That let of see exactly than Bowser must almost always to fight close combat, then Charizard can to fight mostly at midway.

And I think than Samus has the matchup to Bowser

Traction does effect the matchup. It effects a lot of Zard's matchups - there was a reason pre-patch that Zard was considered the worst character in the game and traction has a great deal to do with it because it made him have no OoS game whatsoever.

Bowser has more kill moves, arguably better kill moves, more survivability, better grab range, better traction thus making him better out of shield, gets more rewards out of his grabs, has better rage potential and Tough Guy, however small the list that it works against is, let's Bowser move through things that Zard would need to take the time to shield or dodge. Bowser has just as much over Zard, if not more, as Zard has over Bowser.

You should not base a match solely on aerials, especially against a ground-based character. Zard has no room to approach Bowser with any of his aerials - it's risky and Bowser can punish Zard very badly for it. Regarding move comparison, speed and power aren't the only factors - utility plays a role, too. As I said, Zard can use B-Air to space against shield now and Bowser obviously gets many more opportunities to U-Air than Zard thanks to his combo throw. Bowser's may be stronger and faster, but if one slips up and lands badly with Bowser's B-Air, we have a grueling 40+ frames where the opponent can punish us hard.

I won't argue that Zard can edge-guard us better, but I recently tested and found that a well timed D-Air from Bowser can dunk Zard at any point Flare Blitz is active, including during the active hitboxes of the move.

Charizard doesn't have a command grab and has an inferior grab game to Bowser. Bowser's throws are some of the deadliest in the game and his grab range is just bigger overall.

Maybe it's just me but I don't see how Flamethrower gives Zard a huge advantage over Bowser, nor do I see Zard players use it all that often outside of edge-guarding. Honestly if they challenged us with it on the ground, Bowser could jump once and immediately counter with his own flame breath. Both Flamethrower and Fire Breath are poor as projectiles and they don't give either character a huge advantage because, if they did, both characters would be a lot higher.

Samus isn't a character that scares me when I play Bowser lol

 

[S_B]

M2K apparently has a pocket Zard now which he's pretty good with:

One key thing to be said for flamethrower is that its faster startup and endlag mean that you can throw it out in neutral a LOT more safely than FB. M2K also played a match earlier in the tournament where he used Zard against a Diddy player with great results and wound up using FT a lot.

I also think the massive disjoint on Zard's Bair is pretty damn nice. Other than those two things, however, I'd still say Bowser is in a better place right now.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

M2K has always complained about how his Charizard randomly does good. He even yelled at ZeRo a year ago in frustration because he doesn't understand why he's a natural Charizard player.

 

[super fan bros]

Traction does effect the matchup. It effects a lot of Zard's matchups - there was a reason pre-patch that Zard was considered the worst character in the game and traction has a great deal to do with it because it made him have no OoS game whatsoever.

Bowser has more kill moves, arguably better kill moves, more survivability, better grab range, better traction thus making him better out of shield, gets more rewards out of his grabs, has better rage potential and Tough Guy, however small the list that it works against is, let's Bowser move through things that Zard would need to take the time to shield or dodge. Bowser has just as much over Zard, if not more, as Zard has over Bowser.

You should not base a match solely on aerials, especially against a ground-based character. Zard has no room to approach Bowser with any of his aerials - it's risky and Bowser can punish Zard very badly for it. Regarding move comparison, speed and power aren't the only factors - utility plays a role, too. As I said, Zard can use B-Air to space against shield now and Bowser obviously gets many more opportunities to U-Air than Zard thanks to his combo throw. Bowser's may be stronger and faster, but if one slips up and lands badly with Bowser's B-Air, we have a grueling 40+ frames where the opponent can punish us hard.

I won't argue that Zard can edge-guard us better, but I recently tested and found that a well timed D-Air from Bowser can dunk Zard at any point Flare Blitz is active, including during the active hitboxes of the move.

Charizard doesn't have a command grab and has an inferior grab game to Bowser. Bowser's throws are some of the deadliest in the game and his grab range is just bigger overall.

Maybe it's just me but I don't see how Flamethrower gives Zard a huge advantage over Bowser, nor do I see Zard players use it all that often outside of edge-guarding. Honestly if they challenged us with it on the ground, Bowser could jump once and immediately counter with his own flame breath. Both Flamethrower and Fire Breath are poor as projectiles and they don't give either character a huge advantage because, if they did, both characters would be a lot higher.

Samus isn't a character that scares me when I play Bowser lol

Yes it is true but conversely there were Luigi (which has the worst traction) was nevertheless top tier. And if today he has descended into the tier list this is in large part due to its nerf Uthrow > Down b.

I do not base solely on the air attacks. On the ground, the two can have difficulty to be hit with their air attack. At the limit Bowser has slightly easier with his Fair. I don't think than the Bair do much damage to the shield. As I've already said the Bair of Bowser is better generally. And the Bair of Charizard has slightly less of lag. That's all. The Uair of Bowser in the combo but otherwise he is difficult of the place. And again! The Nair is better than the Uair in the combo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC9YRVNId7o for the lag in the air attacks.

Edgeguard with the Dair of Bowser is suicidal because he has very little chance of getting there. Charizard has a good command grab that allow it to be K.O or is a combo starter. No, really Charizard has a good command grab but I'm agree to say than Bowser is better in this domain.

The flamethrower of Charizard does not give a big advantage at Charizard it gives him a small +. Those of Charizard are useful for edgeguard, the midway or the close combat. Those of Bowser not useless, but they have more restricted. Their main use is d'edgeguard of characters having a bad recovery as Ganondorf because the character ga mash the Bup then it fact a Fsmash if he did not manage to reach the ledge. At midway or close combat it's too risky.

Yes, as me with Sheik lol

 

[BarSoapSoup]

Yes it is true but conversely there were Luigi (which has the worst traction) was nevertheless top tier. And if today he has descended into the tier list this is in large part due to its nerf Uthrow > Down b.

I do not base solely on the air attacks. On the ground, the two can have difficulty to be hit with their air attack. At the limit Bowser has slightly easier with his Fair. I don't think than the Bair do much damage to the shield. As I've already said the Bair of Bowser is better generally. And the Bair of Charizard has slightly less of lag. That's all. The Uair of Bowser in the combo but otherwise he is difficult of the place. And again! The Nair is better than the Uair in the combo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HC9YRVNId7o for the lag in the air attacks.

Edgeguard with the Dair of Bowser is suicidal because he has very little chance of getting there. Charizard has a good command grab that allow it to be K.O or is a combo starter. No, really Charizard has a good command grab but I'm agree to say than Bowser is better in this domain.

The flamethrower of Charizard does not give a big advantage at Charizard it gives him a small +. Those of Charizard are useful for edgeguard, the midway or the close combat. Those of Bowser not useless, but they have more restricted. Their main use is d'edgeguard of characters having a bad recovery as Ganondorf because the character ga mash the Bup then it fact a Fsmash if he did not manage to reach the ledge. At midway or close combat it's too risky.

Yes, as me with Sheik lol

Luigi also has more reliable throw combos, superior frame data, a better projectile and is overall faster. Luigi's down-throw combo was a monster - Zard doesn't have that pleasure. Luigi has the worst traction but doesn't have the weaknesses that Zard's class has which is why Zard struggles much more than Luigi.

You said yourself that the aerials are extremely important in this matchup and made a comparison of all of their aerials when in reality neither of these characters want to approach each other from the air. And given Bowser is better on the ground than Zard, that's another advantage for Bowser. Furthermore, being good against shield doesn't mean it does huge shield damage. Both are kill moves, but again, Zard can space well against shield with its B-Air. Bowser cannot. Again, it may be just me, but I don't see Zard players making heavy use of U-Air when Fly is an overall better combo finisher. Bowser's U-Air isn't so hard to place, it's just a matter of timing your jumps right in the combo, and speaking if the combo, N-Air is only better as a damage dealer. N-Air doesn't kill out of U-Throw, U-Air does.

Bowser doesn't need to be off-stage to dunk Zard in Flare Blitz. He can just wait for Zard to reach the stage and dunk him then. I've tested it myself and survived almost every time, only suiciding when I was testing to make sure it worked on active hitboxes.


Zard doesn't have a command grab. A command grab is a grab is not initialized by your regular grab button and is usually a special (B-initiated) move. Examples include Bowser's Flying Slam, Wario's Bite, Ganondorf's Flame Choke, Captain Falcon's Up+B, Mewtwo's Confusion, and Diddy Kong's Monkey Flip. Zard only has what a normal grab and its variants (Dash and Pivot) offer.

Either I haven't encountered a truly skilled Sheik player or my playstyle can handle her well because she hasn't ever been much of a pain to deal with. Doesn't hurt that our jab 2 kills her at the ledge in early 100%s, or something around that.

 

[GerudoKong]

So I'm questioning the Bayo Matchup, and I'm starting to think it's actually worse than I initially thought. Before I used to think that because Bayo's moves generally don't come out that fast, we can beat her in the neutral, but as it turns out, her moves come out relatively slow but they end very fast so it hardly matters that they come out slow. I also find it really hard to land against her, and despite our weight we can still be killed early off the top on stages like Dreamland.

Is the Bayo matchup really hard, or maybe I just don't play it properly?

 

[Big Sean]

In my region, Bowser is considered a counterpick to Bayo https://youtu.be/z96d_EnYPSg?t=125

 

[Cronoc]

In my region, Bowser is considered a counterpick to Bayo https://youtu.be/z96d_EnYPSg?t=125

Ha this is hilarious. I remember after the patch that added Bowser's throw combo, Rice was picking him up. Somehow he gets the grabs on these players in tournament. I still wouldn't consider Bowser anything close to a counterpick, but given NorCal's style of play (going in all the time), it's probably the best place for Bowser to shine against her.

 

[constable lemon]

I think Bowser works against Bayonetta if the Bowser player knows how to exploit the other player's habits specifically. Rice definitely knew what Trevonte was up to and was confident he could exploit his patterns to get the grabs he needed to secure big damage and stocks.

One thing I'd like to see more of is up throw to back air against characters like Bayonetta. It's a true combo, and there were a couple of times he grabbed him in the 60-70% range where it works.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I don't have sufficient data to support Bowser as a counterpick to Bayonetta, but I do know Bayonetta players generally fear heavyweights for their excellent grab games. Not just because they can't counter to steal a hard earned victory, but because Bat Within will not work on grabs. So they have to work with some of the worst dodges in the game to boot.

The hardest counter to Bayonetta is still your shield, dodging certain moves like Down ABK, baiting, and she's poorly equipped to deal with certain projectiles, so I look forward to more players really looking over their options and saying "oh, she's not hard because she's arguably the best character, she's hard because this type of moveset and style is not optimized for this matchup".

 

[GerudoKong]

In my region, Bowser is considered a counterpick to Bayo https://youtu.be/z96d_EnYPSg?t=125

So what I noticed from this player is that he plays a lot more aggressive against Bayo than I did. I guess I should consider going for that, thanks for the clip.

 

[CreamyFatone]

In my region, Bowser is considered a counterpick to Bayo https://youtu.be/z96d_EnYPSg?t=125

That Bayo was not playing the matchup right. She's not supposed to approach and has no reason to.

Bowser is a hard counter against players who don't know how to pick safe options against him.

Against Bayo, Bowser's strongest advantage is probably to be able to punish her landings. Even if she doesn't have the additional lag from her specials, his dash attack beats her range when trying to cover her own landings. Grabs are a safe way of getting damage without getting countered, but the other way is to hit her while she's attacking or in some other kind of lag, and SOME of Bowser's attacks can do that with good timing (as opposed to almost all of them with the rest of the cast). You can trade jab with her side-b, and beat it with other moves. Sometimes she likes to ABK onto the stage because it's disjointed and safe because she can WT immediately out of it, but if you read it and space perfectly you can hit her back with pivot f-tilt.

Usually if you find yourself underneath a Bayonetta with her jump gone, stay under her with shield and let her do more specials to increase her own landing lag, and then punish. if she does two of whatever, she'll be at about 20-30 frames of landing lag, so that's usually what I look for. She'll want to go to ledge, as Bowser does, so keep that in mind. To my knowledge this is the only way a hard punish is possible on a Bayonetta that won't commit, and you only have a little more or less than a half second to pull it off, so make it count.

Also, I feel like this needs reiteration, do not attack the Bayonetta while you can see that the player is not pressing any buttons. If the hit is too good to be true, it is. Rev up those empty hops, feint attacks, airdodge bait, and fire breath, because you need those. A whiffed counter for a Bayonetta means a potential F-smash to the face (I wouldn't recommand Bomb because I think she can Bat Within it).

Also, this applies to all characters but you can get almost any kind of fast punish off of a blocked grounded side-B. A grab is ideal, but a turnaround f-tilt works too. Turnaround Klaw might work, need to lab it though.

Good moves to get caught in witch time might be Fortress or nair. In fact, I would use nair out of upthrow a lot more in this matchup, because it catches bat within and beats empty hopping too much and letting the Bayo know that you're too scared to attack her.

You know, just thinking about this convinces me that she's the Fox of this game. You have to play so specifically against her, unless you are playing a Bayo ditto.

 

[BarSoapSoup]

I am curious if we have somewhere where our matchup ratios are recorded against each character?

 

[atticusfinch7]

I was wondering how Bowser does against . One of the "top threats" at my locals uses him, and I only played against him once with my other characters and it didn't turn out so well. I thought maybe Bowser could be an even matchup. I used to play Bowser as one of my first characters so it wouldn't be too much for me to get back into the groove of things.