• Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

UltimaLuminaire

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Aug 2, 2007
Messages
643
Location
TX
NNID
UltimaLuminaire
There's nothing special about Bowser vs Ryu. Ryu has superior range and frame data on aerials, and much better kill confirms on the ground. It's hard to even trade with Ryu, and when we do, if it's not BAir, it's not in our favor. The only good point, and what makes the MU okay, is that Ryu has problems with our boxing range, since it makes it difficult to get his kill confirms. That's it.
 

atticusfinch7

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2016
Messages
195
Location
NY
Interesting. I could have sworn Bowser would have a much better neutral than Ryu but I suppose that isn't the case. And I thought having Bowser's notoriously hard punishes would be handy for when Ryu makes a big mistake like whiffing the Shoryuken. Also, can't you just Dtilt or grab him if he's at shorthop height when he goes for focus attack? I'm not sure just how big 'Bowser's grab range is, but I feel like since Ryu is pretty tall it would work.
 
Last edited:

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
Personally convinced that Ryu is the most threatening MU for Bowser in top level play. But we do have a lot of great tools to work with when you're not fighting the best Ryu in the universe.

Knock Ryu in the air and he'll be obliged to focus attack to safely get back to ground. If he's directly above you, Nair is fantastic for blowing through the armor and still dealing up to 23%. If he's not directly above or getting into a habit of approaching or landing with short hop Focus attack, Fire Breath can be another good means for free damage, as long as he's not high/close enough to dash past you. Finally, Fortress and Dsmash are also multihits but will leave you open if he dashes away from you.

Ryu's movement is slow, and his jump height is low. So you can pivot grab the majority of approaches as long as you don't use it exclusively. I feel like Bowser can get away with regular use of Fire breath to halt Ryu's approach or to land onstage assuming he's not directly under you. It will even stop incoming shoryuken. He can only get over Breath by burning a double jump, so cut off breath if you see him use it, and be prepared to punish his landing.

The Shakunetsu (red) hadoken's multihit is tough guyed until past even 150% damage, allowing you to run and attack through them. You don't need to shield them. If you see red, Take the ~4% damage in order to land a free dash grab on Ryu.

Finally, the only thing you can do when caught in an Utilt string is do your best to SDI. Bowser has an extremely hard time escaping this, so you'll want to avoid any situation where he can get close enough for this. When caught you can try up and away, or up and toward. Up and away is best when you've been caught from the air and are already halfway out of the move. If you're caught from the ground, Up and away will take much more time and give him more indication of when he should finish with shoryuken just before you escape. So I would work my way into him to at least get him guessing as to when he should turn around. When you think you're able to escape, mashing jump runs the risk of getting hit after and losing double jump. If you think your jump was lost, mash fortress instead.
 

atticusfinch7

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Feb 26, 2016
Messages
195
Location
NY
Personally convinced that Ryu is the most threatening MU for Bowser in top level play. But we do have a lot of great tools to work with when you're not fighting the best Ryu in the universe.

Knock Ryu in the air and he'll be obliged to focus attack to safely get back to ground. If he's directly above you, Nair is fantastic for blowing through the armor and still dealing up to 23%. If he's not directly above or getting into a habit of approaching or landing with short hop Focus attack, Fire Breath can be another good means for free damage, as long as he's not high/close enough to dash past you. Finally, Fortress and Dsmash are also multihits but will leave you open if he dashes away from you.

Ryu's movement is slow, and his jump height is low. So you can pivot grab the majority of approaches as long as you don't use it exclusively. I feel like Bowser can get away with regular use of Fire breath to halt Ryu's approach or to land onstage assuming he's not directly under you. It will even stop incoming shoryuken. He can only get over Breath by burning a double jump, so cut off breath if you see him use it, and be prepared to punish his landing.

The Shakunetsu (red) hadoken's multihit is tough guyed until past even 150% damage, allowing you to run and attack through them. You don't need to shield them. If you see red, Take the ~4% damage in order to land a free dash grab on Ryu.

Finally, the only thing you can do when caught in an Utilt string is do your best to SDI. Bowser has an extremely hard time escaping this, so you'll want to avoid any situation where he can get close enough for this. When caught you can try up and away, or up and toward. Up and away is best when you've been caught from the air and are already halfway out of the move. If you're caught from the ground, Up and away will take much more time and give him more indication of when he should finish with shoryuken just before you escape. So I would work my way into him to at least get him guessing as to when he should turn around. When you think you're able to escape, mashing jump runs the risk of getting hit after and losing double jump. If you think your jump was lost, mash fortress instead.
So upB out of the utilts is a thing? So I suppose fighting Ryu on a stage where we can safely land on a platform to do this is very helpful? Also thanks for all the advice. If Bowser can run through the fire hadoken then that is actually pretty useful, assuming this Ryu player doesn't already know that.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
So upB out of the utilts is a thing? So I suppose fighting Ryu on a stage where we can safely land on a platform to do this is very helpful? Also thanks for all the advice. If Bowser can run through the fire hadoken then that is actually pretty useful, assuming this Ryu player doesn't already know that.
It's possible. I first saw it happen in a grand finals set. It's just less likely to work than double jump would in the same scenario. Only ideal if you feel like he's caught your double jump (since there's no way to visually tell if your double jump is gone). Ryu has to Utilt in a specific rhythm in order to make a target fall farther into the string, and that's what gives characters the precious few frames they need to escape.

If you do manage to fortress out, do everything you can to not land on the ground or a platform. That's 50 frames of special landing lag. It's much better if you drift to a nearby ledge, because the fortress will carry Ryu with you and not launch him far enough away for you to avoid a massive punish.

The last of our advantages to mention is that Ryu is highly susceptible to Uthrow combos. Uair should kill at about 89, and still be guaranteed at 110, not factoring rage. It's a large window. And Side B should kill beyond that point.
 

constable lemon

Smash Cadet
Joined
Nov 28, 2015
Messages
32
Another thing to keep in mind is you don't want to be holding shield too much, because Ryu's aerials (especially his forward air) have a lot of shieldstun. Ryu can jump on your shield with an aerial and start applying pressure with up tilts. It's much more important to space yourself out of Ryu's range whenever possible and punish that way than hoping to punish out of shield.
 

Kooky Koopa

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Messages
86
NNID
Koopa1989
3DS FC
4184-2976-0132
Recently fought a very strong Sheik and while its clear the nerfs have hurt her, I still am having trouble fighting her in a number of situations. I'll make it easier by breaking it down into bullet points what I am having trouble with.

- Short hop n-air and f-air spacing is still a problem. Essentially they would n-air and f-air slightly out of reach then suddenly divebomb me with a f-air or n-air last second before landing and the juggling starts. I can't engage safely with dash attack or my own f-air and a quick needle or dash grab kicks me out of the neutral. How should I be moving in the neutral against her and dealing with short hop spaced f-airs and n-airs (mainly f-airs) besides trying to shield and read it?
- Catching Sheik's landing
- How do I best DI out of the f-air chain? This is a particular issue on Smashville.
- How do I best DI out of th e d-throw and f-throw?
- Landing in the neutral. Normally I try to retreat to the edge but this goes with the next issue
- Getting back on-stage from the edge. This Sheik covered every option with f-air, dash grab,n-air or needles, be it rolling back onstage or normal get up. What is my best means of getting back on stage once I have "landed" safely?

While I believe this MU is better than it was pre-patch, I do think it's still very much in Sheik's favour. That said I am eager to learn how to squeeze all that I can to learn how Bowser can best combat Sheik.
 
Last edited:

GerudoKong

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
104
Location
Ohio
Recently fought a very strong Sheik and while its clear the nerfs have hurt her, I still am having trouble fighting her in a number of situations. I'll make it easier by breaking it down into bullet points what I am having trouble with.

- Short hop n-air and f-air spacing is still a problem. Essentially they would n-air and f-air slightly out of reach then suddenly divebomb me with a f-air or n-air last second before landing and the juggling starts. I can't engage safely with dash attack or my own f-air and a quick needle or dash grab kicks me out of the neutral. How should I be moving in the neutral against her and dealing with short hop spaced f-airs and n-airs (mainly f-airs) besides trying to shield and read it?
- Catching Sheik's landing
- How do I best DI out of the f-air chain? This is a particular issue on Smashville.
- How do I best DI out of th e d-throw and f-throw?
- Landing in the neutral. Normally I try to retreat to the edge but this goes with the next issue
- Getting back on-stage from the edge. This Sheik covered every option with f-air, dash grab,n-air or needles, be it rolling back onstage or normal get up. What is my best means of getting back on stage once I have "landed" safely?

While I believe this MU is better than it was pre-patch, I do think it's still very much in Sheik's favour. That said I am eager to learn how to squeeze all that I can to learn how Bowser can best combat Sheik.
To be honest it's such a bad matchup that I never use Bowser against Sheik so I can't really help. One thing I could assume is that to catch Sheik's landing, note that since she can land with Nair Bair or Fair with nonexistant endlag, you should shield in anticipation of this before going for any kind of punish.

Does anybody here have experience with maximum punishes?
I was wondering if A) Luigi's tornado on shield is laggy enough to be punished with Fsmash
B) shielding Fox's dashattack (when he lands in front of you) can be punished with downB
C) Falcon's shielded sideB for an Fsmash punish (perfect shield and/or regular)
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
Does anybody here have experience with maximum punishes?
I was wondering if A) Luigi's tornado on shield is laggy enough to be punished with Fsmash
B) shielding Fox's dashattack (when he lands in front of you) can be punished with downB
C) Falcon's shielded sideB for an Fsmash punish (perfect shield and/or regular)
Yes, yes, and no with regular shielding. Block advantage data exists for all characters. For OoS options, you use the Advantage (OoS) column. For punishes that involve putting down your shield, you use the (Drop) column. For Bowser, shield grab and Fortress have you covered for the typically safe moves used in competitive play, but it can be handy to know at what moments you can Bomb or Fsmash as an alternative kill option.
 

CreamyFatone

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
60
Recently fought a very strong Sheik and while its clear the nerfs have hurt her, I still am having trouble fighting her in a number of situations. I'll make it easier by breaking it down into bullet points what I am having trouble with.

- Short hop n-air and f-air spacing is still a problem. Essentially they would n-air and f-air slightly out of reach then suddenly divebomb me with a f-air or n-air last second before landing and the juggling starts. I can't engage safely with dash attack or my own f-air and a quick needle or dash grab kicks me out of the neutral. How should I be moving in the neutral against her and dealing with short hop spaced f-airs and n-airs (mainly f-airs) besides trying to shield and read it?
- Catching Sheik's landing
- How do I best DI out of the f-air chain? This is a particular issue on Smashville.
- How do I best DI out of th e d-throw and f-throw?
- Landing in the neutral. Normally I try to retreat to the edge but this goes with the next issue
- Getting back on-stage from the edge. This Sheik covered every option with f-air, dash grab,n-air or needles, be it rolling back onstage or normal get up. What is my best means of getting back on stage once I have "landed" safely?

While I believe this MU is better than it was pre-patch, I do think it's still very much in Sheik's favour. That said I am eager to learn how to squeeze all that I can to learn how Bowser can best combat Sheik.
Listen son.

I preach a slow-walking, spacing, patient, opportunist Bowser. A Bowser, I believe, should take only calculated risks while controlling as much space and covering as many options as his Bowser-ness allows. Through his defensive perseverance and reading of his opponents options, the humble Bowser main will pivot grab his victory with the blessed spin-to-win followups bestowed upon him by Sakurai, and make swiss cheese of his opponents dreams with the Up-Smash that will clank the heavens.

However, there is one exception to this personal Bowser philosophy of mine. As you can guess, that exception is the Shiek matchup, in which a radical kind of mindset is required.

Although I will explain my reasoning, I believe this video conveys the general kind of strategy and approach that Bowser relies upon in this matchup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=050XUPFDzSc

Upon the realization that you are fighting a matchup in which you are forced to approach at all times against a character who has such an advantage in frame data that if unplugging your opponent's controller were legal, the Shiek player could still probably plug it back in in time to f-tilt you for 30 damage, you can't go into it with ideas of "baiting out moves" or "winning neutral" or "limiting options". None of that **** matters when you're fighting Shiek, because none of those things are ever going to happen even against a mediocre Shiek when you are playing Bowser.

No, victory for Bowser in this matchup happens for a much stupider, meta reason.

Having selected Bowser and pushing start when you see that your opponent is Shiek is where your mindgame starts. If the Shiek player is familiar with the matchup at all, then it's actually even better because then he is more likely to go into autopilot Shiek mode knowing how easy-bake oven Shiek wins in neutral against Bowser. The more comfortable the Shiek is, the better, because we are by no means going to win if the Shiek is taking you seriously for all of the match.

When the announcer says "Go!", that's your queue to push the control stick quickly in the direction of the Shiek initiating that screen shaking Bowser run, while having your index finger primed on shield anticipating needles. If you are ever walking while Shiek can throw needles at you, you are doing it wrong. When you are within boxing range of Shiek, try not to use shield even if you think she'll SH fair you. Fortress is good for beating aerials, and in general you just want to beat her attacks with yours, creating a wall of hitboxes. If you're on Smashville, my favorite thing to do is to jump immediately on that platform and fall in with an attack or Klaw-to-Fortress. It's a terribly stupid thing to approach a Shiek with, but that's actually the point.

There is no point to playing this matchup as anything but Bowser Approaches Shiek with Hard Reads And Gets Hit A Lot While Trying. It is how it is, and every moment you hesitate in accepting that is more needles and less pressure on the Shiek. So you just go in. You just do it. You start playing like an insane person in hopes that you can eventually read the Shiek's movement's well enough to get a punish that smarts. And with Shiek, you only need like three grabs before she's dead. You'll get hit a lot. In fact, if you get grabbed or faired, don't even airdodge or jump, just DI out to ledge and get back into onto the stage without dying. In fact, against Shiek's nair or bair, at low percents Bowser tends to just eat the move and has frame advantage on hit, so there's just another reason to not play defensively. If you want to experiment with this, try crouch canceling her aerials and d-tilting, I'm curious about it.

And let me reiterate; You are reading the Shiek's movement. Not an option. Not a reaction. Step 1 is pick a general space where the Shiek will be in 1 to 2 seconds upon your approach. Step 2 is decide if you should throw a hitbox or a grabbox. Over the course of the game you should know to mix these up, but in the beginning just make a guess about the Shiek player's personality. Is the Shiek dodgy, and doesn't like staying in one place? Run in, Fortress. Is the Shiek stubborn, and prefers to stay in one place, thinking that he can just punish everything you throw at him? Just run up and punch his shield, grab if you're really feeling it. Step 3 is do it. Dropkick the air where may jump. Pivot grab the space where he may roll. Empty hops into grabs. SHAD Klaw. SHAD Fortress. You know how it goes, you play Bowser. Do all of the stupid things that you normally want to but aren't supposed to. If you guess wrong, it's fine. You're Bowser, you'll live to 200 and she'll live to 80. You have twice as many chances to guess right, and she doesn't have kill confirms anymore.

All of this relies on the premise that the Shiek doesn't adapt to your reckless strategy in time to take advantage of it. Regardless of percent, if the Shiek is somehow reacting to your approaching, you're winning and you can find that grab that will kill. As soon as she understands what you're doing however, she'll take advantage of it with needles and fake-outs and you'll be forced into approaching carefully again, which inevitably ends up with Bowser getting grabbed more often and slapped around.

If this works out for you, the match will be very short and make the Shiek player feel like garbage for losing because of a few lucky hits or sick reads.

However, it goes without saying that this is one of those ideas that are just stupid enough to work. So don't take this advice as sound. But if you are going to go Bowser against a Shiek that knows what they are doing, the most optimal strategy is for Bowser to reduce the game to a series of rock-paper-scissors interactions in which his rocks are harder and his scissors cut deeper and the Shiek player can't wrap his head around it.
 

HeavyLobster

Smash Champion
Joined
Jun 7, 2014
Messages
2,074
NNID
HeavyLobster43
Listen son.

I preach a slow-walking, spacing, patient, opportunist Bowser. A Bowser, I believe, should take only calculated risks while controlling as much space and covering as many options as his Bowser-ness allows. Through his defensive perseverance and reading of his opponents options, the humble Bowser main will pivot grab his victory with the blessed spin-to-win followups bestowed upon him by Sakurai, and make swiss cheese of his opponents dreams with the Up-Smash that will clank the heavens.

However, there is one exception to this personal Bowser philosophy of mine. As you can guess, that exception is the Shiek matchup, in which a radical kind of mindset is required.

Although I will explain my reasoning, I believe this video conveys the general kind of strategy and approach that Bowser relies upon in this matchup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=050XUPFDzSc

Upon the realization that you are fighting a matchup in which you are forced to approach at all times against a character who has such an advantage in frame data that if unplugging your opponent's controller were legal, the Shiek player could still probably plug it back in in time to f-tilt you for 30 damage, you can't go into it with ideas of "baiting out moves" or "winning neutral" or "limiting options". None of that **** matters when you're fighting Shiek, because none of those things are ever going to happen even against a mediocre Shiek when you are playing Bowser.

No, victory for Bowser in this matchup happens for a much stupider, meta reason.

Having selected Bowser and pushing start when you see that your opponent is Shiek is where your mindgame starts. If the Shiek player is familiar with the matchup at all, then it's actually even better because then he is more likely to go into autopilot Shiek mode knowing how easy-bake oven Shiek wins in neutral against Bowser. The more comfortable the Shiek is, the better, because we are by no means going to win if the Shiek is taking you seriously for all of the match.

When the announcer says "Go!", that's your queue to push the control stick quickly in the direction of the Shiek initiating that screen shaking Bowser run, while having your index finger primed on shield anticipating needles. If you are ever walking while Shiek can throw needles at you, you are doing it wrong. When you are within boxing range of Shiek, try not to use shield even if you think she'll SH fair you. Fortress is good for beating aerials, and in general you just want to beat her attacks with yours, creating a wall of hitboxes. If you're on Smashville, my favorite thing to do is to jump immediately on that platform and fall in with an attack or Klaw-to-Fortress. It's a terribly stupid thing to approach a Shiek with, but that's actually the point.

There is no point to playing this matchup as anything but Bowser Approaches Shiek with Hard Reads And Gets Hit A Lot While Trying. It is how it is, and every moment you hesitate in accepting that is more needles and less pressure on the Shiek. So you just go in. You just do it. You start playing like an insane person in hopes that you can eventually read the Shiek's movement's well enough to get a punish that smarts. And with Shiek, you only need like three grabs before she's dead. You'll get hit a lot. In fact, if you get grabbed or faired, don't even airdodge or jump, just DI out to ledge and get back into onto the stage without dying. In fact, against Shiek's nair or bair, at low percents Bowser tends to just eat the move and has frame advantage on hit, so there's just another reason to not play defensively. If you want to experiment with this, try crouch canceling her aerials and d-tilting, I'm curious about it.

And let me reiterate; You are reading the Shiek's movement. Not an option. Not a reaction. Step 1 is pick a general space where the Shiek will be in 1 to 2 seconds upon your approach. Step 2 is decide if you should throw a hitbox or a grabbox. Over the course of the game you should know to mix these up, but in the beginning just make a guess about the Shiek player's personality. Is the Shiek dodgy, and doesn't like staying in one place? Run in, Fortress. Is the Shiek stubborn, and prefers to stay in one place, thinking that he can just punish everything you throw at him? Just run up and punch his shield, grab if you're really feeling it. Step 3 is do it. Dropkick the air where may jump. Pivot grab the space where he may roll. Empty hops into grabs. SHAD Klaw. SHAD Fortress. You know how it goes, you play Bowser. Do all of the stupid things that you normally want to but aren't supposed to. If you guess wrong, it's fine. You're Bowser, you'll live to 200 and she'll live to 80. You have twice as many chances to guess right, and she doesn't have kill confirms anymore.

All of this relies on the premise that the Shiek doesn't adapt to your reckless strategy in time to take advantage of it. Regardless of percent, if the Shiek is somehow reacting to your approaching, you're winning and you can find that grab that will kill. As soon as she understands what you're doing however, she'll take advantage of it with needles and fake-outs and you'll be forced into approaching carefully again, which inevitably ends up with Bowser getting grabbed more often and slapped around.

If this works out for you, the match will be very short and make the Shiek player feel like garbage for losing because of a few lucky hits or sick reads.

However, it goes without saying that this is one of those ideas that are just stupid enough to work. So don't take this advice as sound. But if you are going to go Bowser against a Shiek that knows what they are doing, the most optimal strategy is for Bowser to reduce the game to a series of rock-paper-scissors interactions in which his rocks are harder and his scissors cut deeper and the Shiek player can't wrap his head around it.
So Bowser vs. Sheik is the same as Ganon vs. Sheik, in that the only way to win is FSmash and pray?
 

Big Sean

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Jun 3, 2003
Messages
484
Location
Berkeley
Its' hard but there are options. Notably dash attack and pivot grabs, timed well beat a lot of the short hop options, which is all that shiek's do. Shiek is one of the few characters that can be up smashed after up throw guaranteed, so make sure to have that in your pocket. If the shiek is aggro this is a pretty easy matchup. If the sheik is defensive then at the very least with grab, you get heavily rewarded. After Bowser is at like 100% this becomes a lot easier as well. Shiek will need a hard read to kill you, and you will need 1 grab to take the stock.

Don't get me wrong it's a terrible matchup, but it's way way way better than ZSS.
 

GerudoKong

Smash Apprentice
Joined
May 31, 2015
Messages
104
Location
Ohio
While we're talking about rough matchups for Bowser here, I would like to point out this video
showing CalmAnimal beating both ZSS and Robin, characters that are among his worst matchups.
 

Greward

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 1, 2008
Messages
1,429
Location
Barcelona, EU
Against sheik I try my damn best to break neutral somehow. There isn't a viable plan to win neutral vs her as bowser. I usually try and wait to get in a good dash attack or for a misspaced aerial to punish with jab or tilts. Fair can work against dash grabs, and sometimes powershielding an aerial into upB works aswell.

The nerfs helped the matchup but not so much. She was killing bowser from nair - bouncing fish prepatch most of the time and still is. The weight nerf is nice tho.

This matchup has to be played more against the player. Sheik takes so long to kill and is so light that you should get enough chances to get reads and win it abusing rage. Probably still a -2 matchup but doable.

ZSS isn't that hard to me, although I don't play very strong zamuses. Has the nerf helped bowser? The main fear in the matchup was ladder combos and with the now weaker upair I'm not sure how they are working.

I'm having a lot problems against peach as bowser. I can't handle her pressure game and since she floats most of my neutral tools are useless. Luckily it's an uncommon character.
 
Last edited:

Kooky Koopa

Smash Apprentice
Joined
Jan 15, 2014
Messages
86
NNID
Koopa1989
3DS FC
4184-2976-0132
Just a few quick question regarding fighting Pikachu and Diddy and one about getting back on the edge.

What is the best way to DI/SDI out of Pikachu's u-air, n-air and f-air chains? Similarly, what is the best way to break out of Diddy's f-air and b-air air strings and to get back on-stage once his bannana is lying on the very edge?

Also, while I find normal get up from the edge is great, sometimes my opponent will simply wait for me to recover at a certain point and regardless if I get up from the edge normally, roll or otherwise, I am knocked back off with a glaring hitbox, f-air, or a well timed grab. I know mixups are an option but besides normal get up what can be a good means of doing so against someone patiently waiting for a getup option?
 
Last edited:

CreamyFatone

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
60
I'm having a lot problems against peach as bowser. I can't handle her pressure game and since she floats most of my neutral tools are useless. Luckily it's an uncommon character.
I urge you to consider how sweet it is when you bait them to dair on your shield, and after the fourth hit you Oos Up-Smash.

I'm not even kidding, there's nothing she can do about it except begin double jumping away after one dair attempt. Once you demonstrate you can do this her neutral against you is ruined except for turnips which are no problem if you are careful.

Also, while I find normal get up from the edge is great, sometimes my opponent will simply wait for me to recover at a certain point and regardless if I get up from the edge normally, roll or otherwise, I am knocked back off with a glaring hitbox, f-air, or a well timed grab. I know mixups are an option but besides normal get up what can be a good means of doing so against someone patiently waiting for a getup option?
Just hit them. Punish them for waiting.

You can ledgedrop fair, and then fortress back on ledge. Either they got hit, or they blocked or dodged it. If they got hit, just ledgehop back on stage and get back into neutral. If you didn't hit them, take comfort in the knowledge that they probably won't be waiting for you anymore and buffer a getup option. Some opponents are overly patient, and might still wait or just shield at the ledge instead. If they shield, that's your signal to ledgehop Side-B, and I personally buffer jab in case of whiff. I've honestly been in a match in which I got three fairs from underneath the stage before the guy finally decided to try to hit me on the ledge. I think sometimes Bowser has to be kind of bait-y even his recovery.

Alternatively, ledgejump is your fastest ledge recovery option, even though Bowser doesn't like being in the air sometimes the bad option is good because it's unexpected. Sometimes a dair out of ledgejump can trip them up even if they try to avoid it. You really just have to hold shield against it, so if your opponent doesn't like sitting in shield it's a good mixup and might actually give you momentum back.

Sometimes you can get away with aerial fortress and fading back to ledge like you're DK. It should be the rarest and ballsiest of mixup options though.
 
Last edited:

Eddie The Pacifist

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 11, 2016
Messages
1,750
Location
Zelda Social
Just a few quick question regarding fighting Pikachu and Diddy and one about getting back on the edge.

What is the best way to DI/SDI out of Pikachu's u-air, n-air and f-air chains? Similarly, what is the best way to break out of Diddy's f-air and b-air air strings and to get back on-stage once his bannana is lying on the very edge?

Also, while I find normal get up from the edge is great, sometimes my opponent will simply wait for me to recover at a certain point and regardless if I get up from the edge normally, roll or otherwise, I am knocked back off with a glaring hitbox, f-air, or a well timed grab. I know mixups are an option but besides normal get up what can be a good means of doing so against someone patiently waiting for a getup option?
I believe Diddy's Fair and Bair is to SDI away from them. A mixup option for getting onto the stage is to jump backwards and Fire Breath them. This will back them off so you can then try to do a Nornal or Jump ledge getup
 

CreamyFatone

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
60
This is my current idea about how the Bowser matchup spread goes.



I'm primarily interested in how crazy you all might think I am and what you know about matchups that I don't know about.

Thanks.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
This is my current idea about how the Bowser matchup spread goes.

I'm primarily interested in how crazy you all might think I am and what you know about matchups that I don't know about.

Thanks.
I have to point out Duck Hunt's placement. As difficult as it may feel to play Bowser against a projectile based character, they still have to find some way to finish off your stock. And this is where Duck Hunt struggles, because he has one kill move, the forward smash. He can also get an air dodge read with Uair and maybe kill, but there's no kill setup, so he has to knock you all the way to ~130% before he can get aggressive. Meanwhile we have to land about half that much damage before we can kill him with a grab. Or get him as far as 100+ where the majority of our moveset is acceptable. Plus his recovery is slow and has no hitbox and his side B fails to connect all its hits on Bowser thanks to Tough Guy. Trick Shot and Wild Gunman are tricky, but once you're past, he's in trouble.

I also disagree with Bowser Jr. He's a pretty unremarkable character all around and we auto gimp his recovery with Fire Breath. So spend all your time aiming for a Jab 1+2 to get him offstage, then get in position for breath. I would put Roy in +0.5 since 100% of his approach options can be pivot grabbed or Fire Breathed, and his above average grab followups don't connect on heavy weights. Fox I would instead throw into -0.5. Fox definitely fears Bowser's grabs by virtue of him having the worst fall statistics for getting out of combos, but a patient fox has no incentive to approach and moves too fast for us to catch. Imagine Captain Falcon with a projectile and short hop Side B to avoid getting cornered. It's pretty unreasonable.
 

super fan bros

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
50
This is my current idea about how the Bowser matchup spread goes.



I'm primarily interested in how crazy you all might think I am and what you know about matchups that I don't know about.

Thanks.
Bowser has of MU -3 already. After I'm not at all agree with you but I'll tell you the MU who surprised me the most:

ZSS, Sheik, Sonic, Captain Falcon and Pikachu are -3.

Ryu, Cloud, Rosaluma, and R.O.B have a bigger advantage against Bowser.

Luigi, Ness and Roy are not 50-50.

Bowser has not the MU against Fox, King Dedede, Bayonnetta, Peach, Little Mac and Lucario.

And Bowser has the MU against Ganondorf.
 

CreamyFatone

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
60
his side B fails to connect all its hits on Bowser thanks to Tough Guy.
Oh god, I didn't know that. That helps a lot. I thought I was just stuck holding shield until he runs up and grabs me.

And when I think about it, I may not have been fighting Bowser Jr. correctly. I've always seen him as a fat sonic with disjoints, except you can always catch his Side-B with jab so it's probably just me with matchup inexperience.

The reason for fox though is that he doesn't actually have a projectile. If you're within dash attack/grab range, you can punish laser on reaction. Fox really loves his shorthops, but we can eat those with Fortress and pivot grab. I think if Bowser plays very safely with good spacing, he can always wait until the fox tries to get around him for the punish. In the late game, his Side-B can become predictable. It's a very intense matchup where mistakes result in huge punishes, but I may be a bit overconfident because you can regrab Fox after a pummel upthrow at 0, and get him to like 45%. Bowser doesn't actually have to commit to anything that fox can punish. And even though fox has no reason to approach, he has no guaranteed way of getting in unless the Bowser throws out something unsafe. Its just that he has to make the first move when he's cornered.
 

super fan bros

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
50
Here are the MU of in my opinion. I warn in advance that he there are some MU than I do not know much. Explication of MU:

-3: Very disadvantaged
-2: Disadvantaged
-1: Slighly disadvantaged
0: 50-50
1: Slighly advantaged
2: Advantaged

Matchups Bowser SSB4.PNG
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
Oh god, I didn't know that. That helps a lot. I thought I was just stuck holding shield until he runs up and grabs me.

The reason for fox though is that he doesn't actually have a projectile. If you're within dash attack/grab range, you can punish laser on reaction. Fox really loves his shorthops, but we can eat those with Fortress and pivot grab. I think if Bowser plays very safely with good spacing, he can always wait until the fox tries to get around him for the punish. In the late game, his Side-B can become predictable. It's a very intense matchup where mistakes result in huge punishes, but I may be a bit overconfident because you can regrab Fox after a pummel upthrow at 0, and get him to like 45%. Bowser doesn't actually have to commit to anything that fox can punish. And even though fox has no reason to approach, he has no guaranteed way of getting in unless the Bowser throws out something unsafe. Its just that he has to make the first move when he's cornered.
Well it's the reticle hits of clay break we armor. Hits 2-4 out of 5. And now that I lab it out, it doesn't seem to have much effect. Each reticle is an independent article, and the hitlag you receive from one is long enough to let the next hit you. So unlike, say, Ryu's Shakunetsu, it's not a move you can get hurt with, and react with shield to avoid the rest of the damage or safely run through.

Those are some great points on Fox, and I would add that picking horizontally small stages like Battlefield can help in keeping him within distance to punish lasers. And when his Side B does become predictable, it's a free fortress or Dsmash as he moves into you. Fox's movement and approach/bait options are still the deal breaker for me.
 

CreamyFatone

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
60
Well it's the reticle hits of clay break we armor. Hits 2-4 out of 5. And now that I lab it out, it doesn't seem to have much effect. Each reticle is an independent article, and the hitlag you receive from one is long enough to let the next hit you. So unlike, say, Ryu's Shakunetsu, it's not a move you can get hurt with, and react with shield to avoid the rest of the damage or safely run through.
I'm not totally sure I'm understanding you here. As long as I can powershield the frisbee and then charge through I don't mind the extra damage.
 
Last edited:

CreamyFatone

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
60
If the reticle hits you, you're stuck for the rest of the move because Bowser is frozen in hitlag until the final hit. There's no running through.
That's rough. Might still be good if you need to lose those shielddrop frames anyway for whatever reason though.
 

CreamyFatone

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
60
And my MU lol?
I wouldn't say that there are any matchups in this game that are impossible. It's a pretty balanced game, all things considered. A -3 to me looks like you just don't have any advantages in the matchup, which I don't think ever happens. Bowser always kills easier, lives longer, and grabs better.

I've already mentioned fox, but Rosalina I think we have an easier time with than ZSS or Shiek because we can kill luma easily. As long as we respect her while luma is out, and space jabs on her shield we can push luma out to the side and then get some damage going. If she hits us off stage we're not getting back up for free, but neither does she with Oos Fortress at ledge.

Also, with Cloud and Mac, it's not as if Bowser can't take advantage of their terrible recoveries and gimp them. He actually has pretty good edgeguarding tools. Try hitting with the reverse hitbox of forward air on Cloud's Up-B.

One thing I'll say about Yoshi, is that he just can't deal with shield except with Egg lay. He gets nothing guaranteed off of his regular grab. So it's easy to bait with shield, spotdodge, and then grab.

Also, this may be controversial, but from playing with some high level Villagers I can conclude that the Villager matchup isn't terrible. It may be tiresome to shield slingshots all day, but that's really all the Villager can do until you throw something unsafe out. If he tries to run at you under Lyoid, I think you can pivot grab him out of it and block Lyoid with grab armor. Or you can be safe and punch the Lyoid, forcing him to shield at a safe distance from you.

One of the things that makes Pikachu good is that he's small and some attacks and grabs just miss him. Bowser doesn't have this problem, as his whole moveset hits at ground level. Also, you can just hit him out of Up-B, even grab him out of it. He also has trouble killing, and needs a read or to go super deep edgeguarding to get it. As long as you throw out hitboxes, he can't quick attack all over you, and if I recall correctly we Tough Guy his jab for a while meaning that he sort of has to commit to something if he wants to go in, unlike Sonic. Like other light characters, Bowser just needs a few good grabs.

A lot of the "bad" matchups for Bowser typically just require a different style of play. Bowser has some amazing coverage options, and can force even high tiers to respect him when he doesn't overextend.
 
Last edited:

super fan bros

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
50
I wouldn't say that there are any matchups in this game that are impossible. It's a pretty balanced game, all things considered. A -3 to me looks like you just don't have any advantages in the matchup, which I don't think ever happens. Bowser always kills easier, lives longer, and grabs better.

I've already mentioned fox, but Rosalina I think we have an easier time with than ZSS or Shiek because we can kill luma easily. As long as we respect her while luma is out, and space jabs on her shield we can push luma out to the side and then get some damage going. If she hits us off stage we're not getting back up for free, but neither does she with Oos Fortress at ledge.

Also, with Cloud and Mac, it's not as if Bowser can't take advantage of their terrible recoveries and gimp them. He actually has pretty good edgeguarding tools. Try hitting with the reverse hitbox of forward air on Cloud's Up-B.

One thing I'll say about Yoshi, is that he just can't deal with shield except with Egg lay. He gets nothing guaranteed off of his regular grab. So it's easy to bait with shield, spotdodge, and then grab.

Also, this may be controversial, but from playing with some high level Villagers I can conclude that the Villager matchup isn't terrible. It may be tiresome to shield slingshots all day, but that's really all the Villager can do until you throw something unsafe out. If he tries to run at you under Lyoid, I think you can pivot grab him out of it and block Lyoid with grab armor. Or you can be safe and punch the Lyoid, forcing him to shield at a safe distance from you.

One of the things that makes Pikachu good is that he's small and some attacks and grabs just miss him. Bowser doesn't have this problem, as his whole moveset hits at ground level. Also, you can just hit him out of Up-B, even grab him out of it. He also has trouble killing, and needs a read or to go super deep edgeguarding to get it. As long as you throw out hitboxes, he can't quick attack all over you, and if I recall correctly we Tough Guy his jab for a while meaning that he sort of has to commit to something if he wants to go in, unlike Sonic. Like other light characters, Bowser just needs a few good grabs.

A lot of the "bad" matchups for Bowser typically just require a different style of play. Bowser has some amazing coverage options, and can force even high tiers to respect him when he doesn't overextend.

Those are the MU -4 who are impossible. After I helped me over those of Brawl: http://www.ssbwiki.com/File:Matchup(+4)9T.png.

Fox is faster, many combos on Bowser he can easily l'edgeguard and has not too difficult to put K.O with his Usmash. For me, Rosaluma is terrible. His Luma is very inconvenient, and even when Bowser manages to the kill, Rosaluma can the maintain at distance. And I do not speak also of her best recovery and the Luma come back. After I find it difficult face them but I think than Bowser will most disadvantaged.

For Little Mac I'm totally agree with you, but Little Mac has nevertheless the MU. It is slightly favored. For Cloud, I have may be exaggerated. But Cloud is nonetheless a big threat with his hitbox disjoint, her passibility d'edgeguard, his combo and her Limit.

Yoshi is very annoying with its egg, his combo, his spike, it's speed, and he has of good option to the shield with his Dair, Down b and his egg.

I do not know a lot this MU, but the Villager has a lot d'option against Bowser. He has the projectiles, a better reco, of combo. All I see good for Bowser est his capacity of l'edgeguard.

Pikachu is little, but that allows him to chained with his combo, his possibility of l'edgeguard and his Attack at distance. After I agree with you but the MU remainder very bad for Bowser. And I do not think a good Pikachu utilizes the jab against Bowser.

The stuff it's than Bowser has a a lot of difficulty against the top and high tier. Bowser begins to have chances only starting from certain middle tier.
 

Jerodak

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
1,098
Location
North Carolina
NNID
Jerodak
3DS FC
1633-5601-9085
If the reticle hits you, you're stuck for the rest of the move because Bowser is frozen in hitlag until the final hit. There's no running through.
You're right, but there's a slight hitch here, you can shield and run through the clay pigeon afterwards, but it depends on how it hits your shield and the way it bounces, and how fast you are about it.

The hits of clay pigeon that stagger Bowser are the disc itself, which pops you up into the air, and the very last hit of the attack, which is the third and final hit of the recticle. The first two hits of the reticle can be tough guy'd for quite a long time, and you can indeed run through it as long as you pass through completely before the last hit. This is usually much easier when the disc bounces up off your shield and goes high, where the reticle will only briefly clip you.

When you get hit, it seems like the reticle actually stuns you but in reality, it's just hitting you while you're already reeling from the first hit, and you stay stunned long enough from hit 1 to be hit by the last hit. If you want to test this, have a disc lay on the ground, then have Bowser walk over it when it detonates.

Because of how long it takes Duck hunt to recover from side-b, shielding and running through like this when you can is a valid strategy if you're given the opportunity. I guess you could also try breaking the disc with ftilt or jab, or try dash attacking or possibly rolling through as well. Most of these are some approaches I haven't tried yet, but rolling in anticipation of a projectile has helped me get in on other characters with laggy projectiles, such as Robin, Lucas, and Yoshi, so I don't see why it wouldn't work here either. The only problem I can think of is if they cover it with a gunman before throwing the disc. Or if the can is out and runs out of time as you roll into it.
 

CreamyFatone

Smash Cadet
Joined
May 28, 2015
Messages
60
You're right, but there's a slight hitch here, you can shield and run through the clay pigeon afterwards, but it depends on how it hits your shield and the way it bounces, and how fast you are about it.

The hits of clay pigeon that stagger Bowser are the disc itself, which pops you up into the air, and the very last hit of the attack, which is the third and final hit of the recticle. The first two hits of the reticle can be tough guy'd for quite a long time, and you can indeed run through it as long as you pass through completely before the last hit. This is usually much easier when the disc bounces up off your shield and goes high, where the reticle will only briefly clip you.

When you get hit, it seems like the reticle actually stuns you but in reality, it's just hitting you while you're already reeling from the first hit, and you stay stunned long enough from hit 1 to be hit by the last hit. If you want to test this, have a disc lay on the ground, then have Bowser walk over it when it detonates.

Because of how long it takes Duck hunt to recover from side-b, shielding and running through like this when you can is a valid strategy if you're given the opportunity. I guess you could also try breaking the disc with ftilt or jab, or try dash attacking or possibly rolling through as well. Most of these are some approaches I haven't tried yet, but rolling in anticipation of a projectile has helped me get in on other characters with laggy projectiles, such as Robin, Lucas, and Yoshi, so I don't see why it wouldn't work here either. The only problem I can think of is if they cover it with a gunman before throwing the disc. Or if the can is out and runs out of time as you roll into it.
The situation I would run into often is that the can would be coming in from above, and he would toss the clay pigeon, meaning I would have to retreat, roll in and eat a punish, or be stuck in shield as he runs up and grabs me under all that pressure. I suppose I could just try to fair it all, but the option to simply Powershield charge through I think is much better psychological pressure on the Dog.
 

Jerodak

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
1,098
Location
North Carolina
NNID
Jerodak
3DS FC
1633-5601-9085
Keep in mind, if the can is out, and he throws the side b, he can no longer control the can until the disc blows up.
 

Opana

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 6, 2013
Messages
1,676
Location
NY
NNID
PINKYz
3DS FC
0748-3814-1504
I've heard Bowser beats Mk, if it's true can someone fill me in as to why? I've recently picked him up, and there's a promininent MK in my region so mu advice is appreciated.

Also how would you guyssuggest fighting Mario and Palutena? If anyone can give insight on any of these it'd be appreciated.
 

Zapp Branniglenn

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 13, 2014
Messages
1,707
Location
Santa Ana, CA
I've heard Bowser beats Mk, if it's true can someone fill me in as to why? I've recently picked him up, and there's a promininent MK in my region so mu advice is appreciated.

Also how would you guyssuggest fighting Mario and Palutena? If anyone can give insight on any of these it'd be appreciated.
I don't think we have advantage against Metaknight. But I also wouldn't personally put him in the top ten worst matchups. It will definitely look bad for Bowser since much of the match involves us getting comboed, but our jab 1 setup into a grab combo is as threatening as MK's half dozen setups into Uair ladder any day. It used to be that we would camp the end of the stage so that an Uair string would take us so far off stage that he would have to SD in order to secure a kill. Now, we can fight and position wherever is convenenient. Just be wary about doing the old trick now, as MK is much more capable of stringing a Fair as a finisher to the Uair string, and that can kill if you've taken yourself close to the blastzone. OoS fortress and pivot grabs can routinely beat his approach options. His Dash attack has trouble passing through us compared to other shielding targets, so our shieldgrab is a fantastic punish. He has to almost be physically touching Bowser's shield before initiating a dash attack that would pass through. Another way to describe it is if MK is far enough away that the toe hitbox could possibly strike bowser, he's too far to pass. And the toe hitbox is the one they want. He faces a similar issue if he attempts to crossup with a falling Nair. Non commital Jab 1 pokes are a great answer to the falcon style dancetrotting, our jab 1 has more reach than all of MK's normals, and limb intangibility on our moveset often awards the win to us, if not a trade because of our superior range. And if he ever jumps for an approach, shield is the answer for everything. Even empty jumps will have trouble against a simple shieldgrab as he lands. Like all characters, Bowser should only be having trouble in a disadvantage state, so if you're air borne, airdodge and double jump often to avoid strings, and drift toward the nearest ledge for safer options than landing onstage. Beyond all that, just be aware of some MK tricks. Like Fthrow to Shuttle Loop which is a 50/50 if you DI'd away. Ftilt 1 to Shuttle loop at about 120% that you must pull up shield for in order to block and then punish, and edge canceled rapid jab into shuttle loop. Correctly anticipating these one trick ponies can net you another grab, or Fsmash kill as early as 50%.

For Palutena, unless we're talking about a customs tournament, there isn't much to fear besides grab combos. Her air game is pretty good, but her ground moves are slower than even ours. I've noticed that our crouch and crawl let us get under the short hop Fairs and Bairs she'll be fond of against tall characters. Mario is pretty manageable. Performing Dthrow combos optimally against heavyweights is something a Mario main needs to practice because the timing is so different. And you can combo break Mario at low (0-~20%) by performing Dair. It would beat or trade against his Utilt at that range, as well as jab at 0%. If you approach Mario but then stop before getting too close, he's at the mercy of Bowser's range and priority just like against swordsmen. Furthermore, you can disrepect Mario a great deal due to his lack of kill options. All you need to worry about is Usmash, and we don't typically approach from the air. Bowser is a big culmination of things Mario hates to fight. Be wary of FLUDD and the cape when recovering. It's best to recover straight up into the ledge to avoid either. You might even want to burn double jump just to make sure you get that vertical angle
 

B-Black

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
50
Location
Paris
NNID
BBlack2
3DS FC
2681-1589-1276
Super bros fan, how LM has the MU against Bowser? It is because of his superior frame data and combos?

And for miis, are they 1111 Guest or XXXX Guest?
 

super fan bros

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
50
Super bros fan, how LM has the MU against Bowser? It is because of his superior frame data and combos?

And for miis, are they 1111 Guest or XXXX Guest?
Yes LM has the MU against Bowser mainly for that. Little Mac is also fatter, a counter, of better Attack smash, less endlag...

For the Mii it's 1111
 

B-Black

Smash Cadet
Joined
Jun 16, 2015
Messages
50
Location
Paris
NNID
BBlack2
3DS FC
2681-1589-1276
Defensively, LM is frail, has low air speed, zero offstage game, weak to our grab game and he's easy to gimp.
Bowser outranges him with all of his attacks and we can eject him easier than him.
 

super fan bros

Smash Cadet
Joined
Dec 22, 2015
Messages
50
Yes it is true but Little Mac is not as easy to be grab. Bowser can easily edgeguard but I think than Little Mac has more advantages than him in this MU.

Moreover that's why I put only +1 for Little Mac.
 
Top Bottom