Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I used to be a Mega Main before I picked up Bowser. I thought that this MU was scary for both sides. Mega Man has some of the best edgeguarding tools and good vertical KO moves to make Bowser wish he wasn't playing as Bowser. And of course Bowser is the only character in the game that can move clean through Mega Man's most potent and reliable zoning tool, the mega buster. Make no mistake, I'm certain that if we didn't Tough Guy through those pellets, Mega Man would easily outrank Shiek as our hardest MU.

These days, I'm quite convinced MM has a tangible advantage when both characters are played optimally. A score of 55:45 in favor of him, or a -1, whichever scoring system you prefer. It's the edgeguarding that seals the deal. Bowser can't do much offstage besides keep fotressing to that ledge. And MM's arsenal of tools all beat us when used with good accuracy and timing. Diagonal metal blades, ledge drop Bairs, even Dair meteors can hit us far easier than other targets that are faster and smaller than our Whirling Fortress. If we had Dash Slash, we would have the boon of being able to recover from high safer instead of heading toward that ledge all the time, but a customs setting lets MM put away his garbage crash bomber in favor of Danger wrap, which is fantastic for countering recoveries that go high.

Speaking of Crash Bomber, please don't get hit by this. It's Mega Man's most ineffectual move that only creates a tiny bit of pressure for your opponent on hit. Mega Man may be a character who limits options with his zoning tools, but at the end of the day, he's a zoner, not Shiek. Getting hit means you're presenting a total unwillingness to shield, which would dissipate the bomb. You don't need to dodge it, avoid it, or perfect shield. Just press, let go, and continue your advance. What we need to worry about is metal blade when we're grounded, and Uair when we're airborne. Both of these work at their maximum effectiveness due to our size.

Mega Man's primary weaknesses are long startup on moves and a high amount of falling speed and weight, making him just as much combo food as us. But Bowser is not a combo-focused character. MM also has trouble racking up enough damage to KO in the first place. Compare his 2- 10% damage on most normals to our 10-24%. But again, that's assuming he's fighting an opponent that's not Bowser sized.

 

[UltimaLuminaire]

If Megaman uses NAir, he's usually stuck with his arm out for a while. He'd have to jump in order to safely transition into another attack.

 

[a stray cat]

Hm, I thought he could transition directly into jab from nair, then from jab to nair again. I'll have to lab that out.

The reason I'm getting hit by crash bomber is more that I'm reading that he's going to throw it out, and trying to get in. My goal is really to get there and stuff it, but I don't always time it perfectly and so sometimes get stuck with the bomb. Far away I just shield it as you say. Now that I think about it, I can probably get a pretty good punish on it; grounded Bowser bomb would probably transfer it if I get stuck with it too.

 

[MagiusNecros]

If you get hit by Crash Bomb just keep on running and it will never mean anything to you. You can grab and then throw and proceed to take no damage whatsoever.

 

[S_B]

-Get crash bombed.

-Keep running and Bowser bomb MM.

-If BB doesn't kill MM, the KB from crash bomb usually does.

Wish I had saved that recording. I've done the same thing to a Link holding a bomb...

I still think it'd be nice if Sheik got adjustments of course, but in the meantime it might be best to look for what we can. And for those who have played good Sheiks, what are your thoughts on her counter play? Is there maybe something everyone is missing?

The only thing I can say for sure is that our Bair can beat Sheik's ledge snap out of vanish without too much trouble.

There should only be problems if Sheik mixes it up and doesn't snap to the ledge.

 

[herpyderpherper]

So ive been having problems vs Mario lately, it seems he gets one grab or falling up air and then im up to 90, i also keep forgetting to use side b to turn back around after he capes me offstage

 

[miniada]

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...1H6Xnh9tcnIDV7MFQ&sig2=LdStWt4OtdGHKiXYHQq2VQ were discussing the king so we can use some help

 

[miniada]

Updated MU spread, taking latest patch and more competitive time into account. What do you all think?


+2
Dr. Mario
Jigglypuff
GW


+1
Charizard
Kirby
Lucina
Olimar
Wario
Wii Fit Trainer
Zelda
DK
Little Mac
Ness
Shulk
Ganondorf
Villager
Samus
Lucas
Mewtwo
Marth
Palutena

0
Greninja
Lucario
Mega Man
Pac Man
Rob
Robin
Toon Link
Mario
Ike
Captain Falcon
Ryu
Roy
Link
Bowser Jr.


-1
Pit
Dark Pit
Diddy Kong
Duck Hunt
D3
Peach
Pikachu
Rosalina
Luigi
Falco
Sonic

-2
Fox
ZSS
Yoshi
MK

-3
Sheik

I thought mewtwo would beat bowser because of his combos how does bowser win?

 

[MagiusNecros]

I thought mewtwo would beat bowser because of his combos how does bowser win?

Mewtwo can't take a hit. And will only win through grab cheese

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I thought mewtwo would beat bowser because of his combos how does bowser win?

The amount of characters that cannot combo Bowser to any reasonable degree in Smash 4 can be counted on one hand. Or at least, I assume so, since I can't think of a single one despite performing at least some research on all of them. All characters that couldn't now can with the help of numerous buffs, such as charizard, Donkey Kong, Robin, and Marth. Suffice to say, "I'll just run in and grab Bowser" is a game plan, not a argument for why your guy beats Bowser. You need more than that to match Bowser's magnificent range, damage, kill potential, etc. Can Mewtwo deal 150% damage on Bowser before we deal 60% on each stock? That's the question you'd ask regarding that MU. And I don't think any of us expressed much concern over our chances against Mewtwo in the past. He's be more threatening if he had safer approach options and neutral game. As well as a recovery with a hitbox.

 

[BowserK.Rool]

Any idea on how to deal with Robin and Link? those two are quite annoying as well as Sheik.

 

[S_B]

(Some anti-Diddy tech I figured I'd post from the video thread because it's more relevant here)

There's an advanced tech on the Diddy forums called Z-drop aerials. Basically, you Z drop the banana immediately before doing an aerial and you'll regrab it milliseconds later while still doing your aerial.

Here's the thing: Bowser can definitely do this as well, meaning he has full access to all of his aerials while keeping Diddy's banana away from him. Yes, Bowser's groundplay is severely hampered while he's holding the banana (as is everyone's), but Bowser still has a number of B-options even while grounded, ESPECIALLY a command grab.

The banana NEVER actually vanishes when you're holding it, and the real point here is not to hold onto Diddy's banana for the remainder of the match, but to make Diddy REALLY have to guess as to when you're going to throw it at him because he'll expect it immediately, and if you don't throw it immediately, you can play some mindgames.

Use fortress OoS to punish shielded attacks, klaw to do the same, and maybe even bomb if you can land it and you could hypothetically go a decent amount of time without letting Diddy have his banana back.

I'll have to test the viability of this the next time I fight a Diddy, but at the very least, you should be able to make the Diddy extremely unsure of when you're going to hit him with that banana...

I made a quick video of how easy it is for Bowser to z aerial regrab:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6_dfNRZecdU

You have to watch your lateral movement when doing it, as moving too far to the left or right between z dropping and executing the aerial will miss the banana, but it's definitely still doable (and easier to do with a big body like Bowser's than it is with Kirby, for example).

And remember: the reward Bowser gets off of a trip can be MASSIVELY better than what Diddy gets (grounded bomb, fsmash, klaw)...

 

[Jerodak]

Another thing you could do is simply place the banana on the ground and hang out behind it.

Diddy's options are more limited in that situation, and it could help slow down the pace of the match.

You can't get grabbed because of the peel and side b is fortress punishable on reaction, last I heard.

So you could just hang out and shield, then punish attack attempts with fortress or peel tosses, and if the peel misses, it's already touched the ground once so it's gone. If he doesn't catch it, he can't use it.

The best thing it seems he can do is try to popgun from out of your throw range, try to bait the peel toss, or just wait it out. It's only around for 6~ seconds or so anyway.

At least that's how it should work on paper. I thought of this back during pre-patch mayhem. I had watched several top level matches where players just chucked the peel offstage. Keeping the peel and using it properly creates counter-play opportunities much like swiping R.O.B's gyro. I never got the chance to properly test any of this though. Especially after the patch happened.

 

[Jerodak]

So did anyone else know that apparently Bowser can just run (or stand) under villager's sling short hop sling shot if they do them rising at certain distances?

F-air has a smaller arc, so you can't stand under it, but you can run under it. B-air's arc is larger, and creates a dead zone where the projectile can't hit you unless you jump or extend your hurtbox.

In both cases the projectile hits lowest at the beginning and ends, so you can't run under it at those ranges, but you can "jump under" them by using the jump as a psuedo crouch. This can let you get in without having to lose any momentum, but of course if you time it wrong, the bullet will hit you.

Also been looking into clashing, when I get back to having regular access, which should be soon if things go as planned, then I'd love to explore practical clashing in detail.

However, at the moment, There are a few things I'd like to bring up.

But first, for those who don't know, or perhaps forgot, the basic rules of clashing are that both attacks must have damage values within 8% of one another. Any higher and the more damaging attack will simply trump the other. Thus, higher damage on attacks means that the attack also has higher priority.

Transcendent priority ignores the above interaction entirely, these attacks never clash. Examples being Fox/Falco lasers, Marth/Lucina side-b, or Dedede's F-tilt. This can be good because attacks like these are very good for whiff punishing since it's not possible to cancel out the attack via clashing. It can be bad because any attack with enough range can force a trade. (Or win clean if it's an attack that is sufficiently disjointed.) Aerials exhibit this property in certain instances.

Then there is what's known as "auto-guard" this is the only way to nullify a transcendent attack without simply shielding it. Bowser and Game and watch both have this property on up smash. Attacks with auto-guard still follow the rules of high-low priority, with the exception of how they interact with transcendent moves. They can still "lose" a clash exchange, but the auto-guard will have nullified the attack and it will not deal any damage. (Though, the resulting clash rebound may leave you punishable anyway depending on the attack.)

Finally, you have attacks which cannot rebound during a clash, Bowser's F-smash and Up smash, and Little Mac's f-tilt have this property. All it means is that when your attack clashes with other moves, it will continue uninterrupted unless it "lost" and you got hit out of the attack as a result. Otherwise, even if it did lose the exchange, it keeps on going. Non-projectile aerial attacks typically have this property by default in certain cases, typically vs projectiles. Keep in mind, that the active hitbox which lost the clash is still nullified even as the attack continues but if the attack is multi-hitting then all subsequent hitboxes will still be active unless also clashed out by the superior hitbox.

(Anyone skipping the explanation can pick back up right here)

Now, with that all laid out, lets take a quick look at Bowser's clashing options.

F-tilt: 12% frame 10 attack, has just enough priority to plow through most jabs in the game and a number of multi-hitting moves. (Which typically do about 1-1.9~ per hit before they launch).

It's disjointed and lingers for five frames, has solid range and should be fairly low risk with good spacing, has a fast leanback animation that can be used to dodge and punish attacks.

Unfortunately, it can easily be whiff punished thanks to the lingering extended hurtbox. It's not very safe vs shields or evasive options either.

D-tilt: two hit attack, first hit does a whopping 14% and is active on frame 10. The priority is even better, able to eat through even more jabs as well as some tilts, and even some of the weaker smash attacks (Such as Shiek's forward and down smashes at 5 and 3% respectively on their first hits.)

Being a two hit move means the first hit can nullify something which could then be punished by the second if they weren't hit already. However, you generally want to have hit them anyway, so this isn't so important except in a few special cases, such as Mac's f-tilt.

It is more punishable than f-tilt though. Not something to be thrown out thoughtlessly.

Dash attack: Bowser's weakest high priority attack, it can only beat anything dealing 1% or less. (Of course this means it can charge right through Bowser jr's fsmash. With the right timing.)

The range and start up are decent, but it loses priority when it travels a certain distance. It's also not disjointed at all and has a lot of cooldown.

Up smash: On top of being a high priority attack dealing either 15 or 20% based on where it hits, this attack also has auto-guard and does not rebound. This means, for the purpose of clashing, it is technically one of the highest priority attacks in the game.

In order to "win" the clash vs this attack, you would need to clash with a sourspot using an attack dealing at least 24% or with any part using an attack dealing at least 29%. Alternatively, you could also use a non-rebounding auto-guarded attack of your own. Then on top of that, provided you aren't pancaked by the landing hit, your attack would need to end quickly enough to leave you at enough frame advantage to punish.

The only character capable of pulling this off (as far as I'm aware) is Palutena using a falling B-air then shielding the landing hit before punishing. (If there's anyone else who can clash with up smash and win please let me know.)

Of course, your opponent could aim for the attack's weakspot, where there is no auto-guard, to avoid having to take such measures. Also, up smash needs 14 frames for the auto-guard to activate. It also needs 16 frames to become active and has plenty of cooldown. The reward for using it properly is well worth it though.

F-smash: Huge hitbox, disjointed legs, and it ignores rebounding during the sourspot. This is Bowser's highest priority attack, so it's unlikely to ever lose if somehow force a clash, especially with some charge on it.

Of course, this move is really slow. You would need a hard read, but it might not be too bad if someone tries to aerial near the ledge perhaps?

Jab: Low priority, but if you clash from max range, it leaves you in a solid position afterwards.

Fortress: Worst option, very low priority, at least on the ground, and a big commitment. It also tends to leave characters right next to you, which isn't great. In the air It's a little better, 10% hitbox on the first hit lets it safely go through Villager's f-smash and Mega man's d-air with good timing. Generally this is best used as a last-ditch clash option when there's no other option.

Also, seems Sonic spin stuff might lose to any attack you throw out if you time it to hit the very tip of Sonic's hurtbox. It seems that he has no hitbox coverage on certain parts of his body when he's down and side b-ing (In this case the very front part). So if you time and space your attack just so, you'll just hit him outright and avoid clashing.

Probably easier said than done, but since you should be trying to jab from as far as possible anyway, if at all. This pretty much just rewards getting the spacing perfect.

Huge tangent aside, hope this helps!

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Anybody have experience fighting Wario? I always felt like we had a bit of an edge there. Wario's frame data is actually a bit slower than ours unless you count his super short range, Frame 5 Dtilt. We're faster in general on the ground. His combo potential seems to rely on extremely unlikely hits from Nair and the Bike, and overall doesn't reach as far as we can on his attacks and grabs. His chomp move may cover our options at the ledge very well, but I know i've let go and double jumped up with Uair to hit him in the past, especially since he needs that close spacing to cover our ledgejump. The armor Wario gets while riding the bike is knockback based, and I think most of our moves that aren't jab, fortress or Dsmash should knock him off at even low to 0%. The problem is that our OoS options aren't ideal for dealing with bike, especially when you factor all the various hitboxes that he can mixup with. Turning around and wheelies can immediately hit us during our punish.

Pros:
-Our attacks outmatch him in terms of range and damage
-Can reasonably dismount him from bike when not receiving shield pressure
-Our fast means of racking up damage and scoring kills makes it unlikely for him to reach a full waft charge
-Very dunkable Up B
-low range and slow ground moves make jab followups very potent
- he can't recover from a bowsercide without a full waft (and knowledge of how characters can recover at all)

Cons:
-We will receive many OoS Usmashes when blocked, and that move is Wario's best bet for an early kill besides waft
- His air speed and bike mixups make for an iffy neutral to defend against optimally.
-Chomp's constant grab hitbox will stuff many of our moves before they become active, including Dtilt and Jab
- what looks like an ineffectual, close range combo game that makes it slow for him to get us to kill percent.

What do you guys have to add?

 

[S_B]

A bit of anti-villager tech:

It requires some precise timing, but it turns out that fortress can do this as it's a horizontal hitbox.

It also only works if the villager is recovering from well below the ledge as both balloons popping causes the villager to rise significantly afterwards.

Now I want to go ask on the villager forums about who can actually pop his balloons without hitting him at the same time...

 

[WispBae]

Hey there, you over-sized turtles!

The Doggy boards are currently discussing this MU and would love your input on it!

Click on this picture of cat (OUR WORST ENEMY) Bowser to whirl your way straight to the thread!

 

[Jerodak]

Click on this picture of cat (OUR WORST ENEMY) Bowser to whirl your way straight to the thread!

I am not touching that.

 

[S_B]

I would, but I honestly haven't seen many DHs in FG, online tourneys or pretty much anywhere in ages...

That poor character's Fsmashes actually need to chain together correctly or it'll never get any better for it.

 

[miniada]

Charecters i want explanations and would appreciate ratios

 

[Cronoc]

I'm not feeling long-winded right now, maybe I'll leave that to someone else. Will leave quantification to someone else too.

Lucas isn't too bad. Even. Zairs are annoying but the followups aren't that bad, PK fires will need shielding etc. He doesn't have anything in particular to be scared of IMO.

Roy is favorable as long as you don't get fsmashed. Pivot grabs stuff all aggression at ground and short hop height. His usmash beats Bowser bomb, it is not a safe ledge snap tool in this matchup.

Ness is rough, landing in this matchup is really problematic. Fair beats Bowser in the air, dash attack outranges everything (including pivot grab), if you get hit by PK fire after 40% or so gird your loins for the kick in the balls that's coming. Knowing proper DI from dthrow is essential.

Villager can harass Bowser to death from slightly out of range. The matchup forces Bowser to be aggressive. Aerial fights are a tossup depending on how many turnips come out on Villagers uair/dair. On the ground Villager is in control of the neutral and Bowser has to play his game. Bowser is at disadvantage.

From favorable to less favorable: Roy, Lucas, Villager, Ness.

 

[Hitman JT]

45:55
40:60
50:50

All IMO; I don't have enough Roy experience to grade that one

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

So who are we discussing? Ness, Lucas, and Villager? Bowser loses all of those, hardest to Ness though, I'd say -2 on that, the other two being -1. Ness is simply too strong. There's nothing more to add to that sentence. Anyway, his combos are ridiculous and do so much damage. Even with our extreme weight, back throw still kills us in the early 100s, PK Thunder rocket can kill at the same percent as our fully charged side smash and Tough Guy doesn't help much against PK Fire. Lucas is somewhat similar to Ness, though not as overly powerful. Up smash kills us in the late 90s, but it's not like it's fast, his down throw combos can deal some damage, but unlike Ness, his PK Thunder rocket isn't invincible, nor does it have absurd priority. Avoid his PK Fires and don't be afraid to go in deep for edgeguards, also avoid getting grabbed if possible. Villager can camp us especially hard due to our massive size, but if you're lucky enough to get in, Villager won't escape unscathed. For these MUs I suggest platform stages, but not Smashville, try for the more gimmicky legal stages if possible, like Castle Siege or Mario Sunshine, it will make you harder to camp.

Edit: Oh and Roy, yeah, we lose that too. It's probably a -1 but I could see -2, Roy's disgusting power despite is low lag make doing anything hard for us. Though it's not Bowser's specialty, try to space him in a Marth-like fashion, so as to escape his hilt hits. Watch out for Blazer (not like in the 420 way) when edgeguarding, if he hits you with only the first hit, it'll stage spike you, hard. Additionally, though this should be obvious, avoid his counter at all costs, it's stronger than the others, not much else help for fighting Roy, he doesn't exactly have many weaknesses. As for the stage choice, FD might not be too bad, nowhere for him to hit you from below. Halberd might work too, due to the small vertical blast zones, killing with up smash will be a breeze, Lylat might be a good double edged sword, small stage and blast zones. Lastly, Castle Siege is always fun, and you might even trick Roy by utilizing the increased hitlag from attacking the statues, though this is...situational at best. I hope this helped.

 

[a stray cat]

Why have I never thought to do this vs. Villager before: http://gfycat.com/UnluckyAbsoluteChipmunk

Same start frame as Dash Attack, but much bigger punish for those first frames of gyroid I think.

 

[Big Sean]

Why have I never thought to do this vs. Villager before: http://gfycat.com/UnluckyAbsoluteChipmunk

Same start frame as Dash Attack, but much bigger punish for those first frames of gyroid I think.

Dash Attack still works from a much farther distance. This only works if the villager does this at basically point blank range which is uncommon, but not unheard of.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Yes, I suspect that if you Dash attacked from a further distance you'd hit villager and clank with the gyroid once it becomes active. Still, bigger punishes are better when you can get them.

 

[B-Black]

Guys, what do you think about Bowser VS ZSS?
In my opinion, it is the WORST match-up for Bowser:
-Great zoning
-Her grab is annoying, can catch you off guard very quickly
-Good combos and knockback.
I can tell you this because I was defeated like 1 or 2 minutes against Leon, despite my training. :/
20-80 for ZSS

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Bowser and Charizard:ZSS haters.
IMO, Bowser is more likely 30:70 but I can see 20:80 easily. There just isn't much Bowser can do against one of the most broken overpowered troubling fighters in the game.

 

[B-Black]

Bowser and Charizard:ZSS haters.

We, dino brothers, will fight against those annoying top tier characters, especially ZSS and Pikachu.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Heavy weight master race!

 

[miniada]

Guys, what do you think about Bowser VS ZSS?
In my opinion, it is the WORST match-up for Bowser:
-Great zoning
-Her grab is annoying, can catch you off guard very quickly
-Good combos and knockback.
I can tell you this because I was defeated like 1 or 2 minutes against Leon, despite my training. :/
20-80 for ZSS

Imo 65:35. She can combo bowser hard and her 0 to death potential is acary. The amount of punishes she has on us is just really annoying and hard to deal with. She edgeguards bowser pretty well to also annoying to deal with. Bowser gets zoned out hard. However we can punish her grab and we have better ko power. And similar to the comment about wario does anyone have any experience with I feel it's quite hard for us. He can combo us hard and edgeguard us to. It's hard for us to punish him but he can punish us. Lasers are really annoying because do I need to say. He has better mobility so it's hard to chase him down or catch him offgaurd. Overall 60:40 I used to think it was slightly bad but due to how annoying his advantages are it's -2 for us.

 

[B-Black]

Imo 65:35. She can combo bowser hard and her 0 to death potential is acary. The amount of punishes she has on us is just really annoying and hard to deal with. She edgeguards bowser pretty well to also annoying to deal with. Bowser gets zoned out hard. However we can punish her grab and we have better ko power.

She is more difficult to beat than Sheik and Rosalina because she has raw power than those two, and a projectile which it paralyses us. Adding a great zoning makes her THE WORST match-up for Bowser, after Pikachu.
I think it's a 75:25 for her.

does anyone have any experience with I feel it's quite hard for us. He can combo us hard and edgeguard us to. It's hard for us to punish him but he can punish us. Lasers are really annoying because do I need to say. He has better mobility so it's hard to chase him down or catch him offgaurd. Overall 60:40 I used to think it was slightly bad but due to how annoying his advantages are it's -2 for us.

I do have with Fox, and it's kinda difficult to beat him, early in the match, because he can combo us with its Utilt and many of its attacks to stun us. But its smashes are punishable, so we can punish him quickly with our tilts, or the jab + Bomb Bowser.
Plus his frailty and and his predictable recovery makes his endurance worse off-stage. So that's a good point for us.
60:40

 

[miniada]

She is more difficult to beat than Sheik and Rosalina because she has raw power than those two, and a projectile which it paralyses us. Adding a great zoning makes her THE WORST match-up for Bowser, after Pikachu.
I think it's a 75:25 for her.



I do have with Fox, and it's kinda difficult to beat him, early in the match, because he can combo us with its Utilt and many of its attacks to stun us. But its smashes are punishable, so we can punish him quickly with our tilts, or the jab + Bomb Bowser.
Plus his frailty and and his predictable recovery makes his endurance worse off-stage. So that's a good point for us.
60:40

Are you saying it 60:40 in favor of bowser or fox

 

[B-Black]

For Fox of course! :o

 

[miniada]

Can some explain how doc is our best mu.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Can some explain how doc is our best mu.

Dunno who says its our best one, but he can certainly be a laughable opponent, especially when compared to normal Mario. Doc's moves deal more damage, which results in slightly better KO percents. Doc mains can be enthusiastic about Bair as a kill move, but he's not going too far offstage with such a poor recovery distance/height. Other differences with standard moves are mostly hindering to his matchup with Bowser - and most of the cast really. The lower launch angle of Usmash for instance is terrible for fighting Bowser, who survives longer than anybody when launched horizontally. If it were vertical like Mario's, it would serve as a valuable kill and punish option. But now it's just for punishing. The reduced ability to combo is also hindering. We can escape after fewer Utilts, and Doc's Uair launches us away instead of up, ending a combo as soon as Doc is forced to go airborne. Mario is a combo monster against heavyweights, and while it didn't auto win matches against Bowser, it was an important element. Doc cannot combo nearly as well to take advantage of the damage increase. So while he should be getting earlier KOs, the path to getting Bowser to over 100% is much more difficult.

I have to stress again that recovery of his. Reduced jump height and recovery move distance combine with a reduced air speed to make for the second worst recovery of any character. Launch him far enough and he simply won't make it back. This is not the case with the majority of characters in the game, including us. And it's no trouble launching him far enough when you are Bowser. Land a stray Dtilt at mid percent and you'll net a kill due to the low launch angle. Jab 1 +2 also gets some good use for the same reason. Get Doc in the air and he doesn't have many options other than to airdodge incoming attacks on the way down.

Doc shares Mario's weaknesses and only sort of covers one of them (better KO power). That low range on attacks forces a reliance on grabs, and his slower run speed make grabbing difficult when Bowser properly spaces and zones with pokes and Fire Breath. Force him to approach and you've got him playing a game he doesn't want to play. He's also pretty helpess when his opponent is below him in the air due to that low range and priority for aerial attacks.

Finally, the specials he has are of little use. Pills don't bounce lower to the ground as they travel, and don't change in projectile speed. Thus the shielding of them is easy and predictable. It's most effective against opponents that approach by air, and we don't. Up B is a powerful and useful OoS option, but it doesn't kill terribly early. Again, it's the horizontal launch angle that holds it back. In a customs setting, things get easier for Doc, but not by much. Most of the moves are better on him than Mario, namely Explosive Punch, Fast Pill, and the Tornado variants. Since even these moves have more damage (and KO potential) when performed by Doc.

 

[miniada]

Dunno who says its our best one, but he can certainly be a laughable opponent, especially when compared to normal Mario. Doc's moves deal more damage, which results in slightly better KO percents. Doc mains can be enthusiastic about Bair as a kill move, but he's not going too far offstage with such a poor recovery distance/height. Other differences with standard moves are mostly hindering to his matchup with Bowser - and most of the cast really. The lower launch angle of Usmash for instance is terrible for fighting Bowser, who survives longer than anybody when launched horizontally. If it were vertical like Mario's, it would serve as a valuable kill and punish option. But now it's just for punishing. The reduced ability to combo is also hindering. We can escape after fewer Utilts, and Doc's Uair launches us away instead of up, ending a combo as soon as Doc is forced to go airborne. Mario is a combo monster against heavyweights, and while it didn't auto win matches against Bowser, it was an important element. Doc cannot combo nearly as well to take advantage of the damage increase. So while he should be getting earlier KOs, the path to getting Bowser to over 100% is much more difficult.

I have to stress again that recovery of his. Reduced jump height and recovery move distance combine with a reduced air speed to make for the second worst recovery of any character. Launch him far enough and he simply won't make it back. This is not the case with the majority of characters in the game, including us. And it's no trouble launching him far enough when you are Bowser. Land a stray Dtilt at mid percent and you'll net a kill due to the low launch angle. Jab 1 +2 also gets some good use for the same reason. Get Doc in the air and he doesn't have many options other than to airdodge incoming attacks on the way down.

Doc shares Mario's weaknesses and only sort of covers one of them (better KO power). That low range on attacks forces a reliance on grabs, and his slower run speed make grabbing difficult when Bowser properly spaces and zones with pokes and Fire Breath. Force him to approach and you've got him playing a game he doesn't want to play. He's also pretty helpess when his opponent is below him in the air due to that low range and priority for aerial attacks.

Finally, the specials he has are of little use. Pills don't bounce lower to the ground as they travel, and don't change in projectile speed. Thus the shielding of them is easy and predictable. It's most effective against opponents that approach by air, and we don't. Up B is a powerful and useful OoS option, but it doesn't kill terribly early. Again, it's the horizontal launch angle that holds it back. In a customs setting, things get easier for Doc, but not by much. Most of the moves are better on him than Mario, namely Explosive Punch, Fast Pill, and the Tornado variants. Since even these moves have more damage (and KO potential) when performed by Doc.

Thanks. I have actually escaped docs combos before with up b. And @Zigsta says doc is our best.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Thanks. I have actually escaped docs combos before with up b. And @Zigsta says doc is our best.

He's probably right. I can't think of any other Matchup that is this much in our favor. Samus, Game & Watch, Lucario, Zelda, they can all capitalize on our mistakes and turn a victory. Doc is just fighting the inevitable by comparison.

 

[miniada]

He's probably right. I can't think of any other Matchup that is this much in our favor. Samus, Game & Watch, Lucario, Zelda, they can all capitalize on our mistakes and turn a victory. Doc is just fighting the inevitable by comparison.

and are pretty laughable imo. 65:35 We have enough kill power and damage output to keep up with him. Firebreath makes the ground a hot zone for mac. And we can abuse his recovery nicely.65:35 this mu is summed up in one word. Rage. jigglypuff can combo bowser hard at low percents but not high percents. And she can't kill combined with bowsers increased kill power from rage makes this quite a hard mu for puff.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

and are pretty laughable imo. 65:35 We have enough kill power and damage output to keep up with him. Firebreath makes the ground a hot zone for mac. And we can abuse his recovery nicely.65:35 this mu is summed up in one word. Rage. jigglypuff can combo bowser hard at low percents but not high percents. And she can't kill combined with bowsers increased kill power from rage makes this quite a hard mu for puff.

Not so sure about Mac being advantageous. Finding optimized Mac and Jiggly players is about as rare and infrequent as finding a good Doc. So when you do find one, there's a very real possibility they know what they're doing. For Jigglypuff, I'm inclined to agree. Bowser is just too well equipped to deal with her. Bowser may be easy to rest, but that's probably all she has to go on.

I used to play Mac back when I was competing, so I have a good idea of what he can and cannot handle. Bowser is a definite "can". When you play as Mac, you see MUs as "can" or "cannot". Since ratings are purely subjective. Every character in the game can get Mac offstage, it's a matter of how well we can take their stocks before it happens. His running speed excellently breaks Bowser's zoning and pokes, top tier frame advantage trumps Bowser's punish options, and Bowser's high damage output and (mostly) high launch angles directly hinder his ability to take stocks and stay alive. See, Mac is similar to Lucario in that he wants to take damage and trades. It charges the KO punch faster than Mac dealing damage, and we bank off of rage immensely well with super armor abuse and excellent punishes OoS.

I'm not saying Bowser loses to Mac all the time. But I'd definitely say that if I fought another Bowser main in bracket, I'd switch to Mac in a heartbeat. I know everything about what Bowser wants to do, and what he cannot handle. Fight me instead with Kirby, Dedede, or Diddy Kong, and I have no choice to switch back. Those are the real 35:65s for Mac.