Carrot Me Bro!: The Bowser Match-up Topic

[A Giggling Turtle]

and are pretty laughable imo. 65:35 We have enough kill power and damage output to keep up with him. Firebreath makes the ground a hot zone for mac. And we can abuse his recovery nicely.65:35 this mu is summed up in one word. Rage. jigglypuff can combo bowser hard at low percents but not high percents. And she can't kill combined with bowsers increased kill power from rage makes this quite a hard mu for puff.

Agreed with the Mac assessment, it is not 65:35. Puff mains are hard to find in my experience, luckily I happen to have a partner who competes in locals with Puff. Through him and others, I have come to understand that good Puff mains can make this matchup difficult for Bowsers once they get them in the air/offstage. Bowser's bulk, especially in the air, makes him a prime target for confirmed rests, or just getting pressured so far offstage that he cannot recover. Even with good spacing from the Bowser, I wouldn't rate this at 65:35. Maybe 60:40.

 

[B-Black]

Those are the real 35:65s for Mac.

Do you think Mac has the advantage?
For me, it's a 55:45 or 60:40 for us because of Mac's miserable recovery and its frailty.
Mac must be closer to Bowser to attack: Dash attack and Jolt Haymaker. Although the Side B is kinda difficult to predict, the Dash attack is predictable, even though it's fast, and Bowser can punish him with its tilts. And Bowser has also a great knockback, so it can eject fairly easy LM.
Don't forget it has the Fire Breath to keep him distance.

 

[A Giggling Turtle]

Do you think Mac has the advantage?
For me, it's a 55:45 or 60:40 for us because of Mac's miserable recovery and its frailty.
Mac must be closer to Bowser to attack: Dash attack and Jolt Haymaker. Although the Side B is kinda difficult to predict, the Dash attack is predictable, even though it's fast, and Bowser can punish him with its tilts. And Bowser has also a great knockback, so it can eject fairly easy LM.
Don't forget it has the Fire Breath to keep him distance.

From Bowser's perspective, Mac does better against him than pretty much any of the high tiers. Like Zapp Branniglenn said, Bowser's high launch trajectories from his KO moves work against him in this MU. Again, it being tough to judge with there being so few LM players around (good Little Mac players), but I'd put this MU at a 50:50 with the current patch.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Do you think Mac has the advantage?
For me, it's a 55:45 or 60:40 for us because of Mac's miserable recovery and its frailty.
Mac must be closer to Bowser to attack: Dash attack and Jolt Haymaker. Although the Side B is kinda difficult to predict, the Dash attack is predictable, even though it's fast, and Bowser can punish him with its tilts. And Bowser has also a great knockback, so it can eject fairly easy LM.
Don't forget it has the Fire Breath to keep him distance.

No, Mac doesn't have the advantage. Mac never has the advantage. For the simple reason that every character in the game has a shield, a grab, and a throw that puts Mac into a bad position (being airborne). There are "cans" and "cannots". Bowser is a can. Fire Breath is a valuable move for Bowser to use, but it's easily beaten by Mac's Side B from the ground. Covering Breath's maximum distance and taking advantage of the fact that Mac's legs are intangible during the move. In optimal Mac play, Dash attack is not spammed. It's primary use being his fastest move from his run (which is also very fast). It easily punishes moves that are deemed as "unpunishable" such as Pikachu's Quick attack or Falco's short hop side B. Beyond that, it's not a reliable attack. Mac prefers to walk everywhere since dash attack and his dash grab are very punishable on block/whiff. Mac's jabs and aerials are short range, but his other moves from the ground easily match Bowser's in terms of range. Priority is good too since Hitbox always arrives before Hurtbox for every move that doesn't have super armor.

No, Bowser's best tool for Mac is the pivot grab. It defeats smash attack spam since super armor loses to grabs. With a good sense of timing, you can beat Mac's safest option, the walk up and Dtilt. I should stress this move since it's extremely good on block, and absolutely nothing of Bowser's is quick enough to stop it once Mac has started if he spaced far enough. Jab is also pretty scary at low percents. Get hit and the followup is guaranteed. One of the followups from Jab is indeed KO punch. At higher percents, jab followups can be escaped by expending your double jump, and hope you can land somewhere safe.

 

[B-Black]

Now, for Shulk.

It is a difficult matchup for us because of his long range and his monado to keep us distance.
But his smashes are way too punishable, until he used the Buster Mode to break our shield, especially his DSmash.

60:40 for Shulk.

 

[Cronoc]

Late to the Little Mac discussion but a good LM can absolutely destroy Bowser. He can charge smashes all day that are extremely dangerous to confront. Fire breath is always punishable if LM is onstage, don't overestimate its usefulness. I wrote much more in the Little Mac tips thread a little bit back.

As for Shulk, I've played some pretty good ones and never found the matchup disadvantageous, barring getting fair chained offstage while Shulk is in jump monado. Simply stated, Shulk is a character without a projectile who has poor approach options. The monado arts add some wrinkles to the matchup, but knowing when to shield or punish wins the matchup regardless of which state he's in, and that is the game Bowser plays. Don't stale your kill moves during shield monado, play defensively during smash monado, etc.. His recovery isn't that great, making him easy to gimp offstage if he's not in jump or speed monados, and his up b usually goes above the ledge, making it exploitable for an onstage dair spike. In my estimation, 50:50 or 55:45 in Bowser's favor. That said, I haven't played one since the patch, maybe buster mode causing possible shield breaks is a thing to be afraid of now. I don't think it changes things significantly.

 

[B-Black]

Late to the Little Mac discussion but a good LM can absolutely destroy Bowser. He can charge smashes all day that are extremely dangerous to confront. Fire breath is always punishable if LM is onstage, don't overestimate its usefulness. I wrote much more in the Little Mac tips thread a little bit back.

And a good Bowser can punish his smashes with its pivot grab.
LM can attacks us anytime if he wants, but Bowser will eject him easily. LM doesn't have the bulk against it.
The way you wrote is like "a good character can beat a character": it's just how a player can adapt its gameplay against an another player.
But theoretically speaking, Bowser outmaches LM with its good ranges and great knockbacks.

 

[Big Sean]

I'm with Cronoc here. At least for me personally, this has to be one of my worst matchups. I think probably because little mac easily punishes aggression and mistakes, and I generally like to go in. Forward smash -> Forward smash is very very difficult to punish. Theoretically pivot grab beats a lot of what he does, but in practice if the spacing is slightly off you either trade disadvantageously or just lose. Also Pivot Grab is usually a safe move to just YOLO throw out. If you whiff a pivot grab against a mac you are getting a free dash attack to the face even if he's halfway across the stage.. All the stuff I like to do as bowser like stuffing attacks with jab or ftilt can't be done to a move with armor so it requires a different style of play. I tend to play this matchup very slowly with a lot of shielding and walking. Mostly going for shield grabs and fortress when guaranteed. Even offstage isn't free when the little mac knows what he's doing.

 

[S_B]

I hate the LM matchup because of how volatile it is.

LM will always be in one of two states, I find: winning, or f**ked, and it can flip flop between the two very, VERY quickly. He hits hard enough to actually be a threat to Bowser, and the KO punch can kill you at ~30%.

I think we all have so much experience against herp-a-derp FG LMs that it can taint our perspective, but a PATIENT LM who realizes that Bowser doesn't have any real way to put pressure on him can be a friggin' nightmare to deal with...

Again, what I wouldn't give for "tap B to fire shot, hold B to fire breath"...

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Little Mac and Bowser, two heavily polarized fighters, such a beautiful matchup to watch, so annoying to play...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Little Mac can go die.

Dtilt, dsmash and up b all hit under the ledge but Mac's Up B has some ungodly amount of disjoint so it can randomly hit you some times.

Anyone got any other gimping advice?

 

[Dre89]

Don't see how LM beats a character who has like the best grab data in the game

Against LM you can just put your back to the edge of the stage and just not commit to anything. He has to be super careful because you get massive reward off a grab from that position. You also have firebreath, which forces him to approach you if he cottons on and decides not to.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

Little Mac can go die.

Dtilt, dsmash and up b all hit under the ledge but Mac's Up B has some ungodly amount of disjoint so it can randomly hit you some times.

Anyone got any other gimping advice?

Fire Breath - if you're in time to use it from the ledge. Fire Breath doesn't push people downward, it actually pushes upward and away. However, flinching immediately reduces a targets air speed to 0. Try out Mac's Side B and Up B from the air for yourself to see how pitiful the actual range is. Mac will want to continually recover into flames, but the act of doing so requires tricky timing. And Bowser can suddenly stop once Mac is at a point where he can't reach the ledge. Lower than the ledge, but far enough away that Up B can't drag him enough horizontal distance for his ascent. Again, try out his moves.

You have to remember that he also has a counter which functions as a recovery move if successful, pushing his air speed to maximum in addition to the boost. Running off the ledge for a Fair, and not actually doing a Fair, will often bait a counter rather than an airdodge. If he countered, he won't reach the ledge. If he Air Dodged, you can jump back to follow him with an Fair, or Uair if you can't get back into a position facing him.

One final advantage for Mac that I didn't touch up on is his classic jab lock setup. At high percents (90% or so for Bowser) A shorthop Fair forces the opponent to tech. And of course if they fail, they get a shorthop Dair to Lock, and Sweetspot Usmash finisher for a kill. It's a trivially easy setup that has no warning and I never felt was all that punishable on block. The reason why I mention it as an advantage is because the shorthop Fair autocancel only connects on characters taller than Mario, like Bowser. The setup is only possible for matchups like this one. If Mac is running at you when you're close to losing a stock, rather than walking, he might be trying for this, and it can't be done if you're close to a ledge so keep that in mind.

Don't see how LM beats a character who has like the best grab data in the game

Against LM you can just put your back to the edge of the stage and just not commit to anything. He has to be super careful because you get massive reward off a grab from that position. You also have firebreath, which forces him to approach you if he cottons on and decides not to.

Best grab data? Our grabs are tied with Macs in having more startup and often more endlag than any non-tether grab in the game. Bowser's pivot grab may be a fantastic move, but still is very easy to punish if the opponent were out of range or dodged it. And those are pretty common scenarios since pivot grab is a move you use pre-emptively, not necessarily on reaction.

And I already explained why Bowser doesn't want to shield. Mac's Dtilt is so good on block that Bowser specifically has no moves with which to punish its successive use. Shieldgrab won't reach the move due to Dtilt's spacing, Fortress will trade unfavorably or never reach Mac at all, and all moves after a shield drop aren't fast enough.

 

[Cassius.]

I still stand by my statement that I said months ago; you have no business losing to Shulk as Bowser. I'll find whatever I posted on the MU before, but I seriously doubt any shield change is going to make it significantly more difficult for us. That's always been in Bowser's favor.

I honestly don't find Mac difficult either, but I barely approach when I have the life lead...I don't approach even when I don't have it, so I guess that's different from what everyone else is doing? You don't have to go in all the time. Just use minimal commitment and take your time. A lot of players tend to want to rush into everything. You have 6 minutes. Get that lead and chill. If you aren't feeling the situation, walk away and reset neutral. What is Mac going to do, chase you to the corner? Give up center stage?

Offstage against attacks that don't snap the edge or are vulnerable, ie shulk mac kirby, even mk (shuttle loop hit 1), your best bet is to time with dtilt, down angled ftilt, aerial bowser bomb...get creative, it'll probably work, but your goal is to take the stock. If you're used to the timing or the visual/auditory cues of characters then you wont have to worry too much about creativity. You'll pretty much get a trade. I almost always use DTilt, spaced to where only the claws swipe exactly on/slightly over the edge, but I have had success with the moves that I listed before.

If you want more safety/ease you can go for the DAir tech, whichever way you decide to do it. That's also a really good setup for snagging double jumps if you're worried that they'll be able to come back from a DTilt or FTilt trade, like if their horizontal recovery is really good. The DAir tech works in those situations where a character would like to double jump or ledge jump and come out with an aerial, like Sonic using the Spinshot tech or trying to double jump out of a spin dash offstage.

I mean, pivot grab is used "pre-emptively", but considering what a lot of characters can't do in a given situation in this game AND its range, it's essentially a really good guess more than half of the time

 

[Cronoc]

I don't want come across the elitist guy talking about how people haven't played a real good Little Mac here, but... play a really good Little Mac and watch this Bowser-dominance theorycrafting go up in smoke. We're talking about a character with ridiculous frame data, one of the best (edit: quickest) rolls in the game, no need to jump and get punished off of poor spacing like Bowser gets to do in other matchups, and has super armor on all his smashes. Most characters lose in a straight brawl with Bowser because of his damage. Little Mac does not. We don't have the luxury of getting much out of platform camping and we don't have projectiles to stall or play a run-away game with. The match is even at best, and that's being generous.

Don't let the for glory Little Macs cloud things here. Standing at the edge hoping to shield grab LM out of his dash attack, throw him off and gimp for the kill is a great strategy on a for glory player. A good LM will inch towards you with ftilt, dtilt and charged fsmashes, and you will stay in shield because at any moment he could throw a dash attack far to quick for you to react to. And the shield knockback will knock Bowser off stage, forcing a recovery to the ledge. From there it gets worse. If you think the matchup is easy, I know a player who secondaries (yes, he's only his secondary, and it's still ridiculous) LM and can probably arrange for a skeptic (if in the USA for lag reasons) to fight him at some point. You will come out of those matches extremely discouraged, I'd bet money on it. It's rough.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but just want to encourage fellow Bowsers not to sleep on Mac...

Best grab data? Our grabs are tied with Macs in having more startup and often more endlag than any non-tether grab in the game. Bowser's pivot grab may be a fantastic move, but still is very easy to punish if the opponent were out of range or dodged it. And those are pretty common scenarios since pivot grab is a move you use pre-emptively, not necessarily on reaction.

And I already explained why Bowser doesn't want to shield. Mac's Dtilt is so good on block that Bowser specifically has no moves with which to punish its successive use. Shieldgrab won't reach the move due to Dtilt's spacing, Fortress will trade unfavorably or never reach Mac at all, and all moves after a shield drop aren't fast enough.

It's easy for Little Mac to play the approach -> roll back game to bait Bowser into throwing a move... That pivot grab is great until you eat a dash attack and have to recover to the ledge for being baited into it. As for dtilt, ftilt -> ftilt is also difficult to deal with in shield. This is one of my most dreaded matchups, honestly.

 

[KuroganeHammer]

Nitpick, Mac's roll is terrible intangibility-wise.

Intangible frame 4-12? please. LOL

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

I mean, pivot grab is used "pre-emptively", but considering what a lot of characters can't do in a given situation in this game AND its range, it's essentially a really good guess more than half of the time

I don't doubt it, it's just a really disadvantaged move for characters with great speed. The timing is just so much tighter to catch their approach. It begs mention that a lot of Bowser's moves are this way, but that's the point I need to make when you're fighting Mac's superior speed and frame data. And the notion that you could stuff entire MUs by sitting and shield grabbing or compulsively pivot grabbing is the real absurdity. Little Mac can make a living off of getting in and out of an opponent's attack and punish range if he wants to cut the rushdown tactics and shield pressure moves. Whether he favors the dancetrot tech or his amazing walking statistics.

I apologize for the string of wordy posts, but I'm commonly the only "Little Mac reference" available both here and most anywhere I look on Smashboards to help and describe optimal Mac play. I still think the optimal Mac has to put forth a lot of effort to beat the optimal Bowser, but the disadvantages stack up in a way that I think are hard to ignore. Hearing the notion that Bowser has an advantage against Mac, even as high as a 65 (65!!) is just a little bit ludicrous. Hearing that the matchup is even, that's much more convincing. I may think that Mac has the advantage (any "can" MU is advantageous), but I'm not at all bothered about Bowser optimism. I express that all the time.

 

[Cronoc]

Nitpick, Mac's roll is terrible intangibility-wise.

Intangible frame 4-12? please. LOL

True, but it's incredibly quick. The kind of player who enjoys rolling offensively can get a lot of mileage off it. I say this fully knowing what fortress can do.

 

[Jerodak]

KuroganeHammer If mac tries to hit you with up b, you can try a fortress dunk out of shield.

Spacing dtilt is a great option though, or you can use an onstage d-air dunk.


As for the mac match-up. All I have to say is patient play and good use of counter poking and pivot grabbing should help. He's built to beat preemptive attacks, so a focus on punishing over stuffing his moves seems like a good idea. His armor is only a problem if you are trying to challenge his smash attacks or mount an offensive the gets read.

The armor does nothing to protect Mac from whiff punishing though. So if you want to press buttons, practice timing them at the right moments; it's appropriately like playing punch-out.

Hope that helps.

 

[Dre89]

I don't want come across the elitist guy talking about how people haven't played a real good Little Mac here, but... play a really good Little Mac and watch this Bowser-dominance theorycrafting go up in smoke. We're talking about a character with ridiculous frame data, one of the best (edit: quickest) rolls in the game, no need to jump and get punished off of poor spacing like Bowser gets to do in other matchups, and has super armor on all his smashes. Most characters lose in a straight brawl with Bowser because of his damage. Little Mac does not. We don't have the luxury of getting much out of platform camping and we don't have projectiles to stall or play a run-away game with. The match is even at best, and that's being generous.

Don't let the for glory Little Macs cloud things here. Standing at the edge hoping to shield grab LM out of his dash attack, throw him off and gimp for the kill is a great strategy on a for glory player. A good LM will inch towards you with ftilt, dtilt and charged fsmashes, and you will stay in shield because at any moment he could throw a dash attack far to quick for you to react to. And the shield knockback will knock Bowser off stage, forcing a recovery to the ledge. From there it gets worse. If you think the matchup is easy, I know a player who secondaries (yes, he's only his secondary, and it's still ridiculous) LM and can probably arrange for a skeptic (if in the USA for lag reasons) to fight him at some point. You will come out of those matches extremely discouraged, I'd bet money on it. It's rough.

I don't want to beat a dead horse, but just want to encourage fellow Bowsers not to sleep on Mac...



It's easy for Little Mac to play the approach -> roll back game to bait Bowser into throwing a move... That pivot grab is great until you eat a dash attack and have to recover to the ledge for being baited into it. As for dtilt, ftilt -> ftilt is also difficult to deal with in shield. This is one of my most dreaded matchups, honestly.

Bowser never needs to jump in neutral unless he's against someone with projectiles you can't approach through powershield walking (eg. Robin or a Tink who frame traps your shield with explosions). All of Bowser's spacing and burst options are on the ground. You only ever need to jump if you want to catch their jump with fair. Or if you want to empty hop- fast fall into dash attack/grab or pivot grab. But seeing as Mac rarely leaves the ground voluntarily, this becomes less of a concern.

You also make it sound like the Bowser is literally just standing still next to the ledge waiting to shield stuff on reaction. The Bowser should be moving unpredictably, but not committing to anything unless the Mac exposes himself. You don't stand still, that opens you up to burst options you can't react to, or lets people set up perfect spacing for free.

It's not auto-win, you still need fundamentals, but it's heavily in Bowser's favour once you actively try to abuse Mac's weaknesses. Bowser just gets such high reward off relatively low-commitment options like grabs and fairs.

 

[Cronoc]

Bowser never needs to jump in neutral unless he's against someone with projectiles you can't approach through powershield walking (eg. Robin or a Tink who frame traps your shield with explosions). All of Bowser's spacing and burst options are on the ground. You only ever need to jump if you want to catch their jump with fair. Or if you want to empty hop- fast fall into dash attack/grab or pivot grab. But seeing as Mac rarely leaves the ground voluntarily, this becomes less of a concern.

You also make it sound like the Bowser is literally just standing still next to the ledge waiting to shield stuff on reaction. The Bowser should be moving unpredictably, but not committing to anything unless the Mac exposes himself. You don't stand still, that opens you up to burst options you can't react to, or lets people set up perfect spacing for free.

It's not auto-win, you still need fundamentals, but it's heavily in Bowser's favour once you actively try to abuse Mac's weaknesses. Bowser just gets such high reward off relatively low-commitment options like grabs and fairs.

Reread the sentence about jumping, I'm talking about Little Mac there. I'm saying in other matchups Bowser can take advantage of misspaced jumping approaches.

I used a previously talked about strategy as a launching-off point, but the situation I describe will certainly happen during the matchup. Once Bowser is hit offstage the fun begins - getting up off the ledge puts Bowser in exactly the situation I describe, in shield facing ftilt, dtilt or a charged smash.

High reward assumes you can gimp him offstage. A good LM makes that surprisingly difficult. Once again disagree about it being in Bowser's favor at all, but I've written all I need to on that here and in the LM tips thread. We'll agree to disagree.

 

[miniada]

Kind of off topic but I would like to know how the falcon mu is 50:50or45:55.I feel it's -2.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

KuroganeHammer If mac tries to hit you with up b, you can try a fortress dunk out of shield.

A quick note about Mac's up B. It doesn't ledge snap on the way up, but he's allowed to grab ledges on the very next frame after the last punch. Thus the most optimal usage for it is sweetspotting the ledge like in Melee. Going over the ledge and exposing yourself for a reward of 3 or 4% is just not smart, and a mistake on the Mac's part 95% of the time.

 

[Deleted member]

What are the Yoshi and Meta Knight MUs like for Bowser? From my experience once you get past the eggs, Yoshi's pretty easy to take on if you take the steps to prevent yourself from being juggled. I've had a lot of trouble against MK though, especially with that up-air into Shuttle Loop chain and being able to edgeguard Bowser's recovery so easily.

 

[Jerodak]

Fairly certain that both Yoshi and Meta Knight are both manageable match ups.

I think beating Meta Knight just requires patient play and out-baiting the other player.

 

[Cronoc]

Meta Knight is not bad but his early kill combos will make the match lopsided if he gets them. It's kind of like playing a Captain Falcon in the neutral, they'll either dash forward with a grab or dash attack, or bait something with jumps.

Yoshi is incredibly frustrating.

 

[Zard lover Doom Desire]

Kind of off topic but I would like to know how the falcon mu is 50:50or45:55.I feel it's -2.

Anyone who thinks the matchup is better than -2 has never fought the Bowser-Falcon matchup.

 

[miniada]

What are the Yoshi and Meta Knight MUs like for Bowser? From my experience once you get past the eggs, Yoshi's pretty easy to take on if you take the steps to prevent yourself from being juggled. I've had a lot of trouble against MK though, especially with that up-air into Shuttle Loop chain and being able to edgeguard Bowser's recovery so easily.

Imo 40:60. He can combo us hard and follow up into kill set ups. He has a better recovery and can edgeguard us. We will have a hard time edgeguarding him since he can mix up his recovery. Hate this mu idk bout yoshi but I heard it's 55:45

 

[Cronoc]

A general comment on matchups here. Honestly I consider 50:50 a favorable matchup for Bowser. I say that because that's pretty much the best we have. Anytime anyone thinks to put Bowser on the positive side of a matchup with a 60:40 or 55:45 odds are they're wrong. If it's a top 20 character they are surely wrong. I find the numbers to be unnecessarily precise, anyway. If I were going about ranking matchups I'd rather rank them:

Good (50:50)
Manageable (-1 and -2)
Difficult (-3 or more)

Because this covers pretty much every matchup (No I don't really care about Zelda or Dr. Mario). I'm not trying to overhaul the tradition of matchup rankings, but if you put all the matchup numbers in a list you'll be quite discouraged. Let's not forget that your opponent can make a hard matchup easy, or a good matchup very difficult. If you lose and are frustrated, yes, it probably was stacked against you. But in the end even if the salt must flow, if you choose Bowser you know what you're in for.

 

[B-Black]

Imo 40:60. He can combo us hard and follow up into kill set ups. He has a better recovery and can edgeguard us. We will have a hard time edgeguarding him since he can mix up his recovery. Hate this mu idk bout yoshi but I heard it's 55:45

Wow, you really hate MK, don't ya? (IDK)
I think it's a 50:50 : although MK can combo Bowser in the air with its aerials and specials, he has less range, its specials are punishable and he's frail to any attacks.
Bowser has the range and the power to keep MK away. In off-stage, it can defend itself pretty well against him with its Fair.

Yoshi is very hard to beat: long projectiles (egg throw), long command grab (egg lay), good shieldbreak (bomb, Dair) and its punish are those tools which can beat a Bowser easily. Yoshi has a good knockback and range, it can abuse several moves such as its aerials (Nair, Fair and Dair). And it's hard to punish Yoshi very quickly. 70:30

 

[Cassius.]

Falcon really is not that bad. And I'm not understanding why you think that's the case. I would ultimately have to guess that it's something on your end as a Bowser player, as opposed to the Falcon player.

I play against Falcon players all the time in my scene and don't struggle like I do against ZSS, pre patch Luigi, Fox, etc. if you're going to equate it to -2.

I mean, you can try and tell me that I've "never played/fought the Bowser-Falcon MU" but I would just tell you that you're absolutely wrong lol

And I don't agree with changing the MU spread numbers like that tbh. We're not here to make the MU spread seem better than it actually is. You can't just suddenly call even MUs "good MUs" when they're really not lol. You have to call a spade a spade. I would not call or even begin to fit a -1 or a -2 in the same level of difficulty. And -3s aren't just simply "difficult". Those are real MUs that you honestly have no business using Bowser against unless your opponent is significantly worse than you are at this game.

50:50s aren't good. They're even. That's why it's called a 50:50.

A -1 like Mario is nowhere near as difficult as a -2/borderline -3 like ZSS. There's no way you can just group those two into a "manageable" tier. Just use the numbers as they were intended man.

 

[miniada]

Falcon really is not that bad. And I'm not understanding why you think that's the case. I would ultimately have to guess that it's something on your end as a Bowser player, as opposed to the Falcon player.

I play against Falcon players all the time in my scene and don't struggle like I do against ZSS, pre patch Luigi, Fox, etc. if you're going to equate it to -2.

I mean, you can try and tell me that I've "never played/fought the Bowser-Falcon MU" but I would just tell you that you're absolutely wrong lol

And I don't agree with changing the MU spread numbers like that tbh. We're not here to make the MU spread seem better than it actually is. You can't just suddenly call even MUs "good MUs" when they're really not lol. You have to call a spade a spade. I would not call or even begin to fit a -1 or a -2 in the same level of difficulty. And -3s aren't just simply "difficult". Those are real MUs that you honestly have no business using Bowser against unless your opponent is significantly worse than you are at this game.

50:50s aren't good. They're even. That's why it's called a 50:50.

A -1 like Mario is nowhere near as difficult as a -2/borderline -3 like ZSS. There's no way you can just group those two into a "manageable" tier. Just use the numbers as they were intended man.

I have played against falcons. I feel it's -2 for us but others say it's either or even or -1 so I would like to know how.

 

[Zapp Branniglenn]

On the subject of our ranking systems, an even matchup is not terribly difficult to quantify. Imagine both the opponent played optimally, and Bowser played optimally. For common opponents like Falcon, we've got plenty of players who have input, and videos to watch in order to learn about Falcon and what we should watch out for. For the rarer Jigglypuff, Palutena, or Falco, research needs to be less anecdotal until we can lock down what optimal play for them is like. Sure, we could ask them to come in to give input, but those sorts of discussions can get hairy. Nobody wants to think their guy loses, so they'll be as optimistic as possible.

There is one asterisk to our rankings. Let's say I got good enough to be in the Finals set at a major national. And my opponent is a Sheik main. As Bowser, I don't like fighting Sheiks, but I've taken on hundreds to get to this point. My opponent probably can't remember a time where he fought a competitive Bowser. My knowledge of the MU is greater. It's an edge, but not one to be considered for our rankings here. We have to assume that player skill and MU knowledge is equal between combatants. Only then do our ranking numbers matter.

Regarding Falcon, his lack of a projectile means he has to go in on us. Between Fire Breath, Jab, and Pivot grabs, we have tools to stuff his offensive options. If you ask me, Bowser's not at his strongest when he plays on the defensive though. OoS Fortress is very functional, but clocks at most 11% damage and leads into just a reset. Playing rushdown against Falcon will have very mixed results and penalties for error. Our reach is greater, but Falcon's also a heavyweight with hard hitting moves of his own. We can't do anything about his throw combo and Uairs. Being airborne at all is just a bad idea here. Falcon's great at approaching us, but I'd like to see which of his moves beat patient use of Jab and Utilt for anti-air approaching. He has none. Stand your ground against him. His mixup options are limited, so our responses should be kept limited.

Neither of us want to be edgeguarded. Bowser is a large, slow moving, Dair-able target when fortressing, and Falcon's linear recovery makes Fairs and Dair dunks very doable. If you mess up and get grabbed by his Up B and stage spiked, you can tech jump into a Fair on him before he can act out of his flip animation. But overall, his recovery is asking to be hit so use jab 1+2 and Dtilt liberally to get him off the stage for some early stocks.

I want to believe that Bowser has an even matchup against Falcon, but our match histories and video evidence just don't support this, so a -1 seems to be the most accurate. Getting two stocked against a Falcon should not be normal and is definitely the fault of the Bowser.

 

[Cronoc]

And I don't agree with changing the MU spread numbers like that tbh. We're not here to make the MU spread seem better than it actually is. You can't just suddenly call even MUs "good MUs" when they're really not lol. You have to call a spade a spade. I would not call or even begin to fit a -1 or a -2 in the same level of difficulty. And -3s aren't just simply "difficult". Those are real MUs that you honestly have no business using Bowser against unless your opponent is significantly worse than you are at this game.

50:50s aren't good. They're even. That's why it's called a 50:50.

A -1 like Mario is nowhere near as difficult as a -2/borderline -3 like ZSS. There's no way you can just group those two into a "manageable" tier. Just use the numbers as they were intended man.

Only realized this was a response to me just now, since I wasn't quoted. Yeah difficult wasn't the right word. You said earlier this page that Bowser has no business losing to Shulk. I agree, but consider Shulk an even matchup. I suppose shifting the numbers into words makes things a semantics argument. Whether I got it across or not, my point was that I don't really see how the __:__ or -#/+# talk really helps anyone. I'd much rather discuss matchup strategy than how bad a matchup is. I got roped into the Little Mac discussion earlier, but optimally I'd rather be sharing tips and strategies like in the Little Mac tips thread. Knowing the matchup is bad only serves as a hit to morale before the match starts. At best, knowing a matchup is really bad would make a Bowser main more likely to switch to a secondary. But I don't need a forum consensus on bad matchups to know which ones my Bowser gets destroyed in, so it's still redundant. Arguing solely over the numbers is a waste of time.

Rather than trying to figure out whether Captain Falcon is even, -1 or -2, tell us your strategy. In my experience defensive Bowser play loses to an aggressive Falcon because he can dash grab too quickly to counter on reaction. How do you generally find success dealing with his approaches, landing once put up in the air and recovering to the stage? If you posted something about the matchup somewhere else or earlier in this quite lengthy thread, you can link to it rather than rewrite an old post.

I want to believe that Bowser has an even matchup against Falcon, but our match histories and video evidence just don't support this, so a -1 seems to be the most accurate. Getting two stocked against a Falcon should not be normal and is definitely the fault of the Bowser.

I think the disadvantage comes from Falcon's speed. Bowser doesn't have any multi-hit moves he can just sit there doing, and from optimum range Falcon's dash grab is incredibly hard to react to. Jabs are great, but they are distinct and separate hitboxes, not the wall that would stop all grab approaches.

 

[S_B]

Good Falcons will generally just dash dance in an effort to bait something out of you, then punish accordingly. Yeah, Falcon has no projectile and has to go in, but Bowser doesn't have a projectile, either, and using FB is just begging for Falcon to jump over it and Dair you.

Beyond that, Falcon actually has the killing power to negate a good deal of our weight advantage, and his speed means that once he's pried you off the stage, you'll have a very tricky time getting back onto it.

It's not our worst matchup, by far (that's either Zamus or Shiek, probably Zamus), but it's definitely not favorable...

I would almost say that the best way to play against Falcon is to play LIKE a Falcon player: constantly on the move (though not in the air), making it difficult to ascertain what you're going to do next.

The video is somewhere in the video thread of the Bowser player who beat Fatality, one of the best Falcons out there, and he did so by leading Fatality to think that he was going to be one location, then not being there a moment later. Even just running away momentarily then running back worked in his favor...

 

[KuroganeHammer]

I used to think Falcon vs Bowser was -2 but now I lean towards -1 or 0 seeing as I have no problems playing against Falcons anymore (Or at least until I remember that playing against Falcon requires a very different playstyle).

Some notes that will help everyone in the MU:

• Jab beats his neutral game. His main approaches are dash grab (He's called dash grab the character for a reason) and dash attack, both trade favourably with Jab 1 and Jab 2. Spacing out your jabs will make it harder for him to dash grab you.
• Fire Breath to land also beats dash grab, but don't do it too long or you'll get dash grabbed anyway.
• If you do get grabbed, DI down and away. At zero percent Bowser is one of the only characters who flies too far away to be true combo'd by any of his moves out of dthrow at low percents.
• Mix up your recovery: Dair WILL kill you at 20% or lower if you don't have a jump. DO NOT JUMP TO RECOVER UNTIL FALCON DOES SOMETHING OR YOU WILL DIE. Mixing recovery up can be as simple as jumping away from the stage when Falcon runs off to spike you.
• If you get back thrown, Side B towards the stage IMMEDIATELY or you will get utilt spiked while recovering, or back air'd during Side B's recovery frames.
• Harass his recovery with Fire Breath if he recovers low. If he gets semispiked by dtilt at high percents, that's a stock. All you have to do is run off the stage and fair him and he'll be unable to recover if he airdodges and it should trade if he tries to up B you.
• Pivot grab his dash approaches.
• Do not land in front of him unless you want your Koopa ass fucked by f-smash.
• Do not airdodge into the ground. See above, except with knee which will KO you earlier.
• Second hit of dsmash is safe, don't bother trying to punish it if you shield it. Bair is also safe if it's spaced properly.
• Don't get cheesed by uair > knee. Yes, it's true from a large percent range, but you should be shielding if he's landing right in front of you anyway.

That's about all I can think of. Oh, I guess if he's crossing over, he's probably going to back air. Sometimes I stand there like an idiot and grab out of shield while Falcon is behind me back airing me and it's like... oh.

 

[A Giggling Turtle]

And everyone probably already knows not to challenge Falcon when he's got you in the air. Just get to the ground.

 

[33percentgod]

As a Bowser player, "Yoshi, Sonic" are pretty hard for me, Any strategies for these MUs if already posted just quote it.

Yoshi is hard hard hard, but you can survive if you can avoid the constant d-airs and watch out for his f-smash. The problem I have with Yoshi in general is that I feel like he has 0 repercussions for any move he puts out there. Any time he misses he just gets a free opportunity to do another move and never get punished and it's ridiculous IMO. So don't drop shield too quickly because if a Yoshi misses a move there's gonna be a quick answer to follow up ASAP. Yoshi is a very patient MU and to make sure you don't get comboed to hell.

One thing I've learned from these boards is that Yoshi's egg has a semi-long animation. So if you just b-line for Yoshi, he can't move or respond until that egg move is done. So you can get some really important Flying slams early on. Shield and UPB out of Yoshi's d-air. And really try to avoid the ledge and high percents because they'll egg you off the ledge (yet Flying Slam is still an opponents win, EL O EL)

Sonic. Yeah, don't bother. I've tried for a year now with this match up. This isn't a "who is a better player" deal, Sonic v Bowser is literally "game is fundamentally broken unbalanced. X and Y can't exist on the same plane/existence." Find a good secondary is my only advice for the Sonic MU. I always keep the best faith and optimism for having Bowser in any MU, but against Sonic I've just given up. If you figure out some magic strategy please send it my way. He can throw out a move, miss, hit you immediately with something else. Spin dash into a move, down air and then cancel that so when he lands you immediately get comboed or grabbed, etc etc.

There's no way to survive Sonic as Bowser IMO. Just put down the controller and go make a nice sandwich. At least you'll have some nice food and maybe a warm coffee.

 

[B-Black]

Guys, how about Bowser vs Ganondorf.
Do you think Bowser has the advantage?

 

[Big Sean]

B-Black probably the matchup I have the most experience with. I think it's about as even as a matchup can get. Percentage doesn't mean **** in this matchup lol