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Carolina Brawl Power Rankings [1/27] Breaking Bad PRs!! YAY!

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Mekos

Mekos

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hmm Kadaj...I sadly have to disagree. Cuz from what I have analyzed fox should be played like lucas. Mainly a punisher. He seems to not have very good approaches. I may be wrong but if correct, people who know the match up and have characters with better options should win. This is the general case of course not including the person's individual mentality/skill of the game.

For example all a Mk has to do is just sit back and wait for the fox to make his move. Then punish him. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't play fox, this is just simply from watching. He seems to do well in Japan but there playstyle isn't about camping. They are way more aggressive in there playstyle and therefore he can punish the approaches.
 
stingers

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nice mekos =] i just found out how to put vc games on the wii yesterday. i got smash 64 and a bunch of other stuff...it's ****.
 
_Kadaj_

_Kadaj_

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Mekos said:
hmm Kadaj...I sadly have to disagree. Cuz from what I have analyzed fox should be played like lucas. Mainly a punisher. He seems to not have very good approaches. I may be wrong but if correct, people who know the match up and have characters with better options should win. This is the general case of course not including the person's individual mentality/skill of the game.

For example all a Mk has to do is just sit back and wait for the fox to make his move. Then punish him. Correct me if I'm wrong. I don't play fox, this is just simply from watching. He seems to do well in Japan but there playstyle isn't about camping. They are way more aggressive in there playstyle and therefore he can punish the approaches.
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Your right about his punishment playstyle BUT he is one of the best campers in the game, Japan plays a very defensive playstyle BUT one of the bad things about this is that you MUST approach Fox you can't afford to just camp while he's shooting 3 lasers at you at a time. If you camp you'll be in kill percent in about 10-15 seconds lol (characters w/o reflectors) and shielding the lasers can be a bit bad as well since they eat shield pretty well. The lasers also refresh his moves so him using up smash as a pretty powerful punishing move isn't considered a bad option at all.
Back to what I said earlier about Japan's playstyles, it may seem more like they aren't camping when a fox is in the match because of what I talked about afterwards.

I wish TKD got on aim like he use to, he could explain it to you a lot better than I can (although he's told me several times before lol)

In short though you can't just "wait" on fox and expect to win

**** that you got your hacks though :D
 
Duo55

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_Kadaj_ said:
Your right about his punishment playstyle BUT he is one of the best campers in the game, Japan plays a very defensive playstyle BUT one of the bad things about this is that you MUST approach Fox you can't afford to just camp while he's shooting 3 lasers at you at a time. If you camp you'll be in kill percent in about 10-15 seconds lol (characters w/o reflectors) and shielding the lasers can be a bit bad as well since they eat shield pretty well. The lasers also refresh his moves so him using up smash as a pretty powerful punishing move isn't considered a bad option at all.
Back to what I said earlier about Japan's playstyles, it may seem more like they aren't camping when a fox is in the match because of what I talked about afterwards.

I wish TKD got on aim like he use to, he could explain it to you a lot better than I can (although he's told me several times before lol)

In short though you can't just "wait" on fox and expect to win

**** that you got your hacks though :D
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While I do agree with you that fox is a good character because he does decently against top tiers its the gaping holes in fox game that result in his downfall. I've seen TKD play plenty and he is a very smart player, it is quite difficult to consistantly camp well with fox for the simple fact that his projectiles do very little damage and no hit stun. This mean that if you make one mistake, one miss read, your opponent will catch your precents up from camping and then your at square one again. The key to beat this strategy is to approach slowy and try to predict when fox is going to approach. In most of TKD's matches his opponent rush him because they have t ingraved in their brains that "I'm taking percents and he is not, let me fix this quickly" when really you want to try and push fox to the ledge limiting his options then force him to act and punish. You may take ten percent or so (usually less)getting the set up, but the trade off is always in your favor due to fox having few options. That strat deals with campy fox anyway. Also you would be suprised to know that alot of characters are too short to hit with the shtl and usally only get hit by one or so.
 
Mekos

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Ahh I see Kadaj. The thing is I can tho lol since I can just obsorb his lasers. I just need proper spacing. But I see what u mean for other characters that don't have tools against his lasers our 30 jumps lol.

With that said tho, I agree with you. :)
 
Mekos

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Duo55 said:
While I do agree with you that fox is a good character because he does decent against top tiers its the gaping holes in fox game that result in his downfall. I've seen TKD play plenty and he is a very smart player, it is quite difficult to consistantly camp well with fox for the simple fact that his projectiles do very little damage and no hit stun. This mean that if you make one mistake, one miss read, your opponent will catch your precents up from camping and then your at square one again. The key to beat this strategy is to approach slowy and try to prodict when fox is going to approach. In most of TKD's matches his opponent rush him because they have t ingraved in their brains that "I'm taking percents and he is not, let me fix this quickly" when really you want to try and push fox to the ledge limiting his options then force him to act and punish. You may take ten percent or so (usually less)getting the set up, but the trade off is always in your favor due to fox having few options. That strat deals with campy fox anyway. Also you would be suprised to know that alot of characters are too short to hit with the shtl and usally only get hit by one or so.
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I agree with this and this is why I beat foxes and other campy characters. Just stay calm, have proper spacing, and don't fall to their bait traps.
 
_Kadaj_

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When discussing character capabilities you don't really add in the fact of human error too much like if I make a mistake in "X" situation. Because the characters abilities are being referred to from a high end perspective, that being said I'm sure Mikehaze, Tyrant, Havok, TearBear, and many others are losing to TKD just because they approach recklessly lol
 
Mekos

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daaaaannnnng! lollol. why u gotta do dat kadaj lol

Yeah it's hard to not do that tho. Cuz then it's completely theory. So we sometimes add in generally what goes on during a fight.
 
Duo55

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_Kadaj_ said:
When discussing character capabilities you don't really add in the fact of human error too much like if I make a mistake in "X" situation. Because the characters abilities are being referred to from a high end perspective, that being said I'm sure Mikehaze, Tyrant, Havok, TearBear, and many others are losing to TKD just because they approach recklessly lol
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Watch the videos, that usually is the case. They play the match up incorectly widely I'm sure too inexperience or underestimation and the fact that TKD is one of the best brawl players in the scene imo. And if we are talking strickly about character strengths and weaknesses than alot of fox's strengths have weaknesses attatched. Such as his fall speed gets him comboed alot by chain grabs and low hit stun moves and his recoveries are mediocre at best especially when you add in the fact of his B special landing lag (not sure what they call it here on the forums). And while he does have a good killer it is his only reliable killer which makes it kinda predictable. I could go on.
 
_Kadaj_

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Falco's side b has landing lag too :p

So does Marth's up b, you can do things to cancel out the landing lag so that's not really a big issue, Chain grabs for the most part can just be avoided until they are no longer a factor in the mu's (excluding ic's since it'll always be present)

With the use of good reads/decision making he has more than just an up smash to use as a reliable kill move lol

This can be argued both ways for the most part, but the thing is every character has flaws and short comings. The things that make them great characters are their pro's and the things that they can do to avoid/overlook those cons.

Edit: Also take a look at how TKD is playing, no one else plays at that calibur so it's very difficult to try and compare everyone elses fox to his in the first place
 
Duo55

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_Kadaj_ said:
Falco's side b has landing lag too :p

So does Marth's up b, you can do things to cancel out the landing lag so that's not really a big issue, Chain grabs for the most part can just be avoided until they are no longer a factor in the mu's (excluding ic's since it'll always be present)
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Did you understand what I meant about the b lag? I'm talking about when you use a special (side or up b) to return to the stage and even though you grabbed the legde your character still has the landing lag of the up b the next time your feet hit the ground in which time you can't shield or move.

With the use of good reads/decision making he has more than just an up smash to use as a reliable kill move lol
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With that in mind he now has the back air up air and d smash added to the list. none of which kill under 120% unless they are platform fresh. then its like 110%.

This can be argued both ways for the most part, but the thing is every character has flaws and short comings. The things that make them great characters are their pro's and the things that they can do to avoid/overlook those cons.
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I agree, I think that fox should be higher on the tier list as well but I feel like people in A tier have alot more pros and alot less cons than fox and have better easier to use tools.

Edit: Also take a look at how TKD is playing, no one else plays at that calibur so it's very difficult to try and compare everyone elses fox to his in the first place
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I agree, tkd is super consistant and a really smart and accurate spacer which is the hard part with fox to me.
 
_Kadaj_

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Yeah I know what you mean with the b move recovery Duo, quite a few characters suffer from special landing lag. But you can cancel it out with a fast falled aerial (probably the best choice, well for marth it is) you can also platform cancel to remove the lag, as well as let's say in fox/falco's case shIPC (Short Hop instant phantasm cancel)

But yeah I don't think I've suffered from landing lag since like 2008 lmao
after people found out ways to cancel it out it is almost non existent, aside from the people who didn't know about canceling the lag out (naturally)

And Killing at 120 is very good o_0 not a lot of other characters can land kills around that percent even higher tier characters don't really land kills in that percentage with good DI, I've lived fresh fsmashes from mk at 120 and fresh down smashes at 150 (front and back end lol)

Oh also Idk if you knew Duo but Fox can F smash characters out of their Spot dodge lol (random tidbit)
 
Jon?

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That matchup seems like 60:40. Fox can't do much against MK when he gets caught above MK, who can juggle him for ages. Tornado doesn't help Fox out that much either.
 
_Kadaj_

_Kadaj_

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Dair, Nair, and Shine(the hardest one to perform consistently) all break nado from the top lol

With his fast fall speed, rising fair, and aerial momentum it can be pretty easy for him to land. Stages would also play a big factor in helping him land as well via platforms
 
stingers

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Duo55 said:
I like this idea. Are you thinking about a pr combo video or just an epic combo compilation?
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epic combo compilation. everyone should be allowed in if they have content that should be used.

hmm...I've never made a combo video before, but I'm willing to try if nobody else will do it =p does anyone else want to make it, though?haha
 
Black Mantis

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stingers said:
epic combo compilation. everyone should be allowed in if they have content that should be used.

hmm...I've never made a combo video before, but I'm willing to try if nobody else will do it =p does anyone else want to make it, though?haha
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I would like to make it.

I imagine at least 40% of the footage would include Kadaj beasting on everyone lol?
 
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