Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[peedy]

Cool I'll look at it right meow. Thanks PP

 

[Reyjavik]

?Thank you for going in depth on your thought process. I have a few questions about metronome but ill await until I work on threat range.

1. Could you give an in-depth definition of threat range

2. What is the best way to work on this? Is it just spamming neutral

3. Do you think a person understands his threat range generally before the top 100 or do you think its like when they reach top 20 or something

again appreciate the replies and hope your doing well

Here's a guide PP made years ago for your help
https://smashboards.com/threads/falco-discussion-thread.256826/page-439#post-14739329

 

[peedy]

Thank you Reyjavik

 

[Kotastic]

https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=4s - In this neutral stance of dash dancing right before Armada shielded, what if after you initially dashed forward and rising faired in place? What are proper counter options Fox has at this close to range? Do you also think it's a good gambit to cross up dash grab here since it's a relatively common for Fox players to overshoot at that close of a range?

What ends up happening in that link is that Armada runs up shield likely to see your intentions and (tries to) FH's away to reposition. Why do you do those extra little dash dances? Later I think Armada messed up with his FH drift and was forced in a bad spot. Did you jump because you expected Armada to jump to platform or misread/missed reactions?

 

[peedy]

I was thinking about intent theory. Have you ever heard of levels of intent? The average human can hold 5 levels of intent. 20 percent of the population can hold 6 levels of intent. only the smartest can hold 7 levels of intent. Was trying to play but labeling intent on each action is complicated. But at any rate have you ever considered levels of intentionality?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm not sure how safe rising Fair is on hit at 0% if you're not drifting backward. Most people aren't looking for it, but I'm still concerned about this. So he could take the hit or go in for Dtilt and hold down to counter rising Fair as well as dash back for example. Run up shield if he gets close he could usmash oos probably. He could FH over the Fair and hit me. He could DD/move etc closer to me and let me whiff then SH Nair me. Those are probably the main ones. I wouldn't recommend crossing up and grabbing at the start of a set unless you have some kind of read, because you risk just running with them as they move away as they see you come in and then Fox can shine or hit you with anything. I only like crossing up when I can be sure since being wrong here is quite an issue.

Well some of those extra dashes were just bad, but I'll explain what I was thinking. Long dash away as he shields to avoid him approaching from dash in. Move back in as I confirm he shielded. Move back out as I confirm he FH'd so I could be safe from drift in aerial. Move in to challenge his landing/potentially threaten a DJ away. It's executed sloppily and I should've been cutting my DD at different times, but that's likely what I was more or less thinking.



Edit: Peedy yes I have heard of intention theory. Typically I say that three levels of intent are enough and more tends to needlessly complicate things, which is based on Bruce Lee's work. If you have some links or theories you could share about intention I would be interested in them though.

 

[Kotastic]

Instead of rising fair what about nair in place for low percents?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Different pros and cons. M2K used to Nair all of the time at low percents but found that people could react to it starting up a lot if it didn't hit someone and either they could FH over or at minimum pressure him when it ended so he does it way less now. Nair beats jumps more quickly and can beat the Dtilt a lot of the time(though something weird may happen with FF AC Nair I don't remember), but it would lose worse to FH and it gives a more reliable cue for the opponent to punish. It's better on hit vs grounded opponents though, again provided you FF. It can be better vs shielding opponents too if you FF and space it as well as opposed to rising Fair, but the differences vary somewhat there.

 

[capusa27]

The Pakistani PP though; great job to Zain!

 

[Kotastic]

Do you believe back dash pivot fair in place is consistent as opposed to sacrificing few frames of leniency for back dash shield stop fair in place? I can see pivot fair being much more essential at closer ranges, but often at the longer ranges Zain played against Hbox, Zain often got his shield stop fair to zone out Hbox. I can also see this being really good in the Peach mu if she floats a lot. Thoughts?

 

[Reyjavik]

The Pakistani PP though; great job to Zain!

What? They have completely different styles.....

 

[peedy]

I'm having a hard time describing this. I consider intention as taking into consideration the others needs, desires, feelings, beliefs, goals, purposes, and reason, manipulations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacognition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

I could be wrong but I think that the way we are describing intention may be different although I'm not sure. Mentalizing (or intention) is the underlying meaning/interpretation of a players actions and behaviors. Its the underlying meaning of an interaction. Here's a vague overview based on stories

(Shakespeare) Watching Othello: https://curtainly.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/why-shakespeares-brain-is-better-than-yours/


The audience believes that…
Iago wants…
Othello to believe that…
Desdemona loves Cassio…
Who loves her right back.

It's not the what someone does in melee but intent is more of the "why" or "aboutness". You can break this down to your goal (to edge guard your opponent) to the tactics and strategies, to the actions you use.

There are a few problems I have with this theory

1. The infinite regress of melee. A single game of melee goes beyond the 5 levels of intentionality I imagine when you take into consideration how you and your opponent are trying to manipulate each other by using your character's tools
2. Because players are practiced and prepared it's possible that players compartmentalize information going beyond the 5 levels of intentionality
3. I just don't know how to put this information together.
4. Sometimes people play randomly (although absolute randomness is impossible)
5. Melee is ridiculously complicated, psychology is ridiculously complicated
6. I'm not a psychology major
7. Cognitive constraint isn't well explained nor an exact science.
8. How beliefs, desires, feelings, etc create action

I'm trying to learn more about psychology and conditioning to understand my opponent's responses (and my own). I just don't understand how to understand the underlying meaning of an interaction. But I'm working on it. I know you've worked on this as well. Although not sure to what extent and if you ever considered taking into consideration the cognitive restraints of a player. The problem is I'm not sure how to take this cognitive restraint into account and am working on just understanding the intent of an interaction. I guess I have to figure out the different reasons why people are doing things.

This was mostly to get some of my preliminary thoughts down. To flesh out a couple ideas, and to try to get a decent definition. I don't know if I have any specific questions as I find this information overwhelming but I needed to get this down and was hoping you could give me some inputs. Hoping to find something that just makes everything click. Mostly going to analyze my matches with lower level players and try to make different observations. It's not even my main focus for melee tbh as I'm working on threatening range and flow state. But still something I enjoy thinking about and it has several applications to other areas of life (in fact levels on intent was invented I believe originally for marriage counseling). So much more I could write about this and am going to try to get some examples from actual matches. but don't wanna write too much of a post that others might find overwhelming to read. I've been working on creating better more coherent posts as well and am worried if I write longer I won't

More or less wondering if you ever played with the idea of cognitive constraint and was hoping for any random thoughts you have on this post most of all. Maybe you'll say something random that makes an idea click lol. Also is this more or less the way you thought about neutral game. Or is this different than intent theory? Also why only 3 levels of intent in bruce lee's work?

 

[Reyjavik]

Melee is not complicated imo. People are. Melee at the surface is RPS. What makes melee special is the nuances involved with the setup of the RPS equivalents: Attack-Shield-Grab. The "Gods" of melee aren't technical masters in the veins of Relno or Hax, but masters of human understanding and decision making. Mango's intuition and ability to push his ego in game allow him to dictate the match, Hungrybox's understanding of what people want to do to him and how to react is amazing, PP's analytical and more nuanced take on the psychological game allow neutral dominance, Armada is a fine machine that knows consistency to no bound and does not waver due to his ability to adapt, Mew2King knows the game to its inner depths and can take advantage of one mistake to end you thus holding dominance over your mind from that one mistake.
Real fighting is more nuanced than melee, and from my pov and maybe PP's, the game should not be viewed as complicated as real fighting due to the RPS nature of this game while real fighting as so many more factors and ways to attack and defend.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you believe back dash pivot fair in place is consistent as opposed to sacrificing few frames of leniency for back dash shield stop fair in place? I can see pivot fair being much more essential at closer ranges, but often at the longer ranges Zain played against Hbox, Zain often got his shield stop fair to zone out Hbox. I can also see this being really good in the Peach mu if she floats a lot. Thoughts?

Sure if you have time/are planning on playing a more drawn out game or want to purposefully delay a little bit, then no problem.

I'm having a hard time describing this. I consider intention as taking into consideration the others needs, desires, feelings, beliefs, goals, purposes, and reason, manipulations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mentalization
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metacognition
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Framing_(social_sciences)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_manipulation

I could be wrong but I think that the way we are describing intention may be different although I'm not sure. Mentalizing (or intention) is the underlying meaning/interpretation of a players actions and behaviors. Its the underlying meaning of an interaction. Here's a vague overview based on stories

(Shakespeare) Watching Othello: https://curtainly.wordpress.com/2014/05/07/why-shakespeares-brain-is-better-than-yours/


The audience believes that…
Iago wants…
Othello to believe that…
Desdemona loves Cassio…
Who loves her right back.

It's not the what someone does in melee but intent is more of the "why" or "aboutness". You can break this down to your goal (to edge guard your opponent) to the tactics and strategies, to the actions you use.

There are a few problems I have with this theory

1. The infinite regress of melee. A single game of melee goes beyond the 5 levels of intentionality I imagine when you take into consideration how you and your opponent are trying to manipulate each other by using your character's tools
2. Because players are practiced and prepared it's possible that players compartmentalize information going beyond the 5 levels of intentionality
3. I just don't know how to put this information together.
4. Sometimes people play randomly (although absolute randomness is impossible)
5. Melee is ridiculously complicated, psychology is ridiculously complicated
6. I'm not a psychology major
7. Cognitive constraint isn't well explained nor an exact science.
8. How beliefs, desires, feelings, etc create action

I'm trying to learn more about psychology and conditioning to understand my opponent's responses (and my own). I just don't understand how to understand the underlying meaning of an interaction. But I'm working on it. I know you've worked on this as well. Although not sure to what extent and if you ever considered taking into consideration the cognitive restraints of a player. The problem is I'm not sure how to take this cognitive restraint into account and am working on just understanding the intent of an interaction. I guess I have to figure out the different reasons why people are doing things.

This was mostly to get some of my preliminary thoughts down. To flesh out a couple ideas, and to try to get a decent definition. I don't know if I have any specific questions as I find this information overwhelming but I needed to get this down and was hoping you could give me some inputs. Hoping to find something that just makes everything click. Mostly going to analyze my matches with lower level players and try to make different observations. It's not even my main focus for melee tbh as I'm working on threatening range and flow state. But still something I enjoy thinking about and it has several applications to other areas of life (in fact levels on intent was invented I believe originally for marriage counseling). So much more I could write about this and am going to try to get some examples from actual matches. but don't wanna write too much of a post that others might find overwhelming to read. I've been working on creating better more coherent posts as well and am worried if I write longer I won't

More or less wondering if you ever played with the idea of cognitive constraint and was hoping for any random thoughts you have on this post most of all. Maybe you'll say something random that makes an idea click lol. Also is this more or less the way you thought about neutral game. Or is this different than intent theory? Also why only 3 levels of intent in bruce lee's work?

Ohhhh, yeah we used the term very differently. Intent in my view is about either directly attacking, faking then attacking, or double faking then attacking(to remove most nuance). Each level is an intention level.

I agree though that the psychological intent behind what people do is incredibly important though, but will not matter so much to a competitor until they reach a high level, as they themselves and their opponents are not really expressing themselves until around that point.

 

[Zorcey]

I agree though that the psychological intent behind what people do is incredibly important though, but will not matter so much to a competitor until they reach a high level, as they themselves and their opponents are not really expressing themselves until around that point.

Could you elaborate on this a bit? Especially what definition of "psychological intent" you have in mind? I would guess that people aren't really expressing themselves until reaching high level because that's the point everyone has at least a solid understanding of every position and their options+their opponents' options in that position, so before that level people are simply limited by what they know, and therefore can't properly express themselves because their outlets are so few.

Something I've started work on recently based on our previous conversation was deeper observations of opponents as they respond to each of my movements and zoning swings. I'm trying to minimize my APM as much as possible and really soak in what each individual action makes them do, and look at the patterns they have in each position (this movement tends to lead to that movement and that attack in this position, etc).

Idk, what you say here suddenly has me wondering if I'm getting ahead of myself, and before I even start this kind of work I should be confident I have a solid understanding of every common position in every matchup (which I'm not for lack of experience). Can I properly understand the exchange of cues and responses between players when there's a bunch of positions/matchups where my understanding is weak? What do you think?

 

[Reyjavik]

I've been thinking about that higher level today but cannot grasp how I can attain it. I haven't been able to play since I've been in Charlotte (Charlotte scene is dead) and don't want to end up like a rusty tool in the shed, as I'm already an unsharpened and cheaply made one atm lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

Could you elaborate on this a bit? Especially what definition of "psychological intent" you have in mind? I would guess that people aren't really expressing themselves until reaching high level because that's the point everyone has at least a solid understanding of every position and their options+their opponents' options in that position, so before that level people are simply limited by what they know, and therefore can't properly express themselves because their outlets are so few.

Something I've started work on recently based on our previous conversation was deeper observations of opponents as they respond to each of my movements and zoning swings. I'm trying to minimize my APM as much as possible and really soak in what each individual action makes them do, and look at the patterns they have in each position (this movement tends to lead to that movement and that attack in this position, etc).

Idk, what you say here suddenly has me wondering if I'm getting ahead of myself, and before I even start this kind of work I should be confident I have a solid understanding of every common position in every matchup (which I'm not for lack of experience). Can I properly understand the exchange of cues and responses between players when there's a bunch of positions/matchups where my understanding is weak? What do you think?

Hmm...I guess I would say that psychology is still a factor and something to notice and build as you improve, but it's not properly expressed and understood until high level. This is at a point in which things become deeply connected, and working on one is like working on the other. It's still true that if you get better at Melee, you will encounter new psychological issues, especially in the modern era, but it can sometimes be swept aside until high level when it can no longer be ignored and the problems become exponentially more serious. Maybe it's better to say that building yourself up is learning how to express yourself through the game, and then eventually the game becomes a direct extension of you.

I think positional understanding/option interaction is most foundational, but working on opponent responses to cues can also be involved in situational understanding. Go where you feel you can get improvement and excitement, and you'll be alright.

I've been thinking about that higher level today but cannot grasp how I can attain it. I haven't been able to play since I've been in Charlotte (Charlotte scene is dead) and don't want to end up like a rusty tool in the shed, as I'm already an unsharpened and cheaply made one atm lol

I'm surprised by this since I'm pretty sure they have one of the bigger scenes in NC. Are there no local events you can go make connections at and fests to go to? If not there's always netplay I suppose, but man.

 

[Reyjavik]

Hmm...I guess I would say that psychology is still a factor and something to notice and build as you improve, but it's not properly expressed and understood until high level. This is at a point in which things become deeply connected, and working on one is like working on the other. It's still true that if you get better at Melee, you will encounter new psychological issues, especially in the modern era, but it can sometimes be swept aside until high level when it can no longer be ignored and the problems become exponentially more serious. Maybe it's better to say that building yourself up is learning how to express yourself through the game, and then eventually the game becomes a direct extension of you.

I think positional understanding/option interaction is most foundational, but working on opponent responses to cues can also be involved in situational understanding. Go where you feel you can get improvement and excitement, and you'll be alright.


I'm surprised by this since I'm pretty sure they have one of the bigger scenes in NC. Are there no local events you can go make connections at and fests to go to? If not there's always netplay I suppose, but man.

Yea I posted in the FB group but no one replied and I see no weeklies posted at all, I thought it would be big too. It seems the community is much more northern and central based now which sucks for me.
I can't even netplay as I only have my laptop instead of rig. sad bois

 

[Zorcey]

Okay, this makes sense. I think I'll just try to keep building on both and see where that takes me - I'm sure there will be points where I have to reevaluate what I know regardless.

I have some more questions I've been thinking about as well:

I recently discovered rhythm after thinking about the post you mentioned it in awhile ago, and I think it's broken lol. I know you have reservations about someone trying to work with it (because it tends to confound their understanding, I guess?), but I really think it makes the nuances of cues so much easier to grasp, so I want to check my understanding/learn from you, and then integrate it into the work I'm doing with zoning and cues/responses.

Rhythm is an expression of our proclivity towards patterns, and so everyone has (consciously or not) a natural rhythm and similarly is very responsive to the rhythms of others. By learning to manipulate your own rhythm, and understanding what responses your rhythm attracts, you have the ability to control your opponent's responses by maintaining a certain rhythm, and throw their responses/reactions off by changing your rhythm. You can manipulate your rhythm by controlling how many dashes you do in a DD, how fast or slow you dash, how long your dashes are, at what point in a DD you jump/WD, at what point you're inside/outside an opponent's TR, and a bunch of other stuff. I'd also guess once you've learned to understand and manipulate your own rhythm, it becomes easier to decipher an opponent's rhythm as well, and using knowledge of their rhythm, you can understand their intentions more clearly (faster rhythms generally mean they probably want to attack and slower rhythms mean they're going to feint/are waiting for you to come in? maybe this depends on opponent/character?). Rhythm seems like a sublimation of conditioning and intention theory (and kinda position theory too?), where you're no longer responding to just the options themselves, but also when and how options are used. What would you correct here?

The other question I have is about simplification/application. I realize I have too much raw knowledge floating around my head/on pages and pages of notes that I can't really make use of, so it's all basically useless to me atm. But I'm not sure how to synthesize new stuff into something I can add to my play while still keeping it simple, especially when the new stuff is situational or highly matchup specific. It's always been much easier to implement stuff with wide application, and situational things tend to fall out of my head once I stop actively thinking about them/trying to force the relevant situations in friendlies. Maybe periodic shadowboxing throughout the day where I run the option/tech in positional context is the way to go? What advice do you have?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I wouldn't correct much in your initial paragraph about rhythm.

Knowledge of situations is very important, especially if they're common or become common ones. Unless you mean situational in terms of rare circumstances. Also, we take in a lot of complexity and then work it a lot until it coalesces and becomes second nature. So if you think it's important, continue to refresh it. Apply it if possible. That's what really makes it stick. Shadowboxing is one way to do this if you can't use it vs someone else, but other ways like flash cards or writing it down or some other route can help. It's usually just best to go after what's most important, and that emotional attachment can help the ideas stick in your mind better. Emotion is good for memory.

 

[Kotastic]

Is there a reason why you prefer jab over shield when Peach throws her turnip? I've been labbing my options when I jab vs shield the turnip and I can't see why jabbing is superior to shielding. When I jab, I can maybe grab the Peach about pull another turnip but then because sometimes I tipper the turnip it hits me on the way down.

When shielding, I don't have to worry about any timings and can easily WD in grab. Peach can also throw and regrab the turnip from it being bounced on my shield, but I can perhaps react to Peach jumping and fair oos her attempt. Peach can also just hang around and control her space after throwing the turnip, but at least she doesn't have a turnip at hand immediately. Idk, maybe I'm missing some things.

I'm looking more into FH Peach's turnip as I research how you and Mango do it, but when strictly talking about shield vs jabbing turnips, what are your thoughts?

 

[Kopaka]

It's been a minute.

PeeePeeeeee I've been listening to the Bruce Lee Podcast on Spotify and if you've never heard of it, check it out man. They talk about the philosophy and martial arts and a lot of it really reminds me of all this stuff that's been posted here. After coming back to this thread after a few months a lot of the more nebulous stuff we've talked about in here makes a lot more sense and makes it feels more grounded (hoho super low-key marth pun) after listening to it.

A cool story from the podcast was of how there were students of one of the studios Bruce Lee owned but did not teach at directly and had a friend of his teaching at. Students there were complaining to the Sensei about how they wanted to learn more and more techniques, thinking they've done enough practice in the techniques they've already learned. The Sensei went to Bruce and said "ahh what do I do? they all want to learn so many new things ahh! they all want to learn quintuple shine pivot uptilts" But it was really at that point that they thought they were done learning what they learned that they needed to go deeper with what they had, not add more and more techniques and stuff to remember, which was what Bruce had told the Sensei. With Marth it's like, we only have so many tools just by nature of the game. I guess in Martial Arts its kind of the same thing. You have punches, kicks, and throws and then footwork. There's no like "Crouch cancelling tiger hidden shield poke" mystical moves out there to learn that are going to propel you to instant evo winner or even just new 'techniques' out there that are going to vastly increase your chances of holding your spot on the friendlies rotation once you've practiced them four or five times and call it a day (actually there is and it's called f-smash spamming hehehe). I think it's the situations that come up that are much more infinite than the amount of tools and techniques we can learn. Which is pretty wild to think about. Humans are playing the game and coming up with these situations with the limited amount of tools we have...but there's limitless possibilities to use the limited amount of tools we have. Wild.

You've really gotta cut away at a lot of psychological fluff to make a lot of these ideas work don't you? You can't really make plays rooted on the work that's been done in here if you're facing the match in a muddied and diluted space mentally, and maybe finding the triggers for those times and learning how to handle them would help (Lots of podcast episodes on that). Is that kind of what you were getting at when you said your stuff is hard to copy? and this lil phrase here "but I do think that so many of my mental blockages would have kept me from using it as fully as I have if those were still in place. This is also a reason against me using it better, as I still have other blockages. "?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is there a reason why you prefer jab over shield when Peach throws her turnip? I've been labbing my options when I jab vs shield the turnip and I can't see why jabbing is superior to shielding. When I jab, I can maybe grab the Peach about pull another turnip but then because sometimes I tipper the turnip it hits me on the way down.

When shielding, I don't have to worry about any timings and can easily WD in grab. Peach can also throw and regrab the turnip from it being bounced on my shield, but I can perhaps react to Peach jumping and fair oos her attempt. Peach can also just hang around and control her space after throwing the turnip, but at least she doesn't have a turnip at hand immediately. Idk, maybe I'm missing some things.

I'm looking more into FH Peach's turnip as I research how you and Mango do it, but when strictly talking about shield vs jabbing turnips, what are your thoughts?

I like being able to dash after the jab, but I never explicitly tested how much lag each option give you. I felt it worked better on average vs ground and air throws, but I would think shielding the aerial turnip throw could make you susceptible to FCs. If you say you can hit her then I guess it's fine either way.

It's been a minute.

PeeePeeeeee I've been listening to the Bruce Lee Podcast on Spotify and if you've never heard of it, check it out man. They talk about the philosophy and martial arts and a lot of it really reminds me of all this stuff that's been posted here. After coming back to this thread after a few months a lot of the more nebulous stuff we've talked about in here makes a lot more sense and makes it feels more grounded (hoho super low-key marth pun) after listening to it.

A cool story from the podcast was of how there were students of one of the studios Bruce Lee owned but did not teach at directly and had a friend of his teaching at. Students there were complaining to the Sensei about how they wanted to learn more and more techniques, thinking they've done enough practice in the techniques they've already learned. The Sensei went to Bruce and said "ahh what do I do? they all want to learn so many new things ahh! they all want to learn quintuple shine pivot uptilts" But it was really at that point that they thought they were done learning what they learned that they needed to go deeper with what they had, not add more and more techniques and stuff to remember, which was what Bruce had told the Sensei. With Marth it's like, we only have so many tools just by nature of the game. I guess in Martial Arts its kind of the same thing. You have punches, kicks, and throws and then footwork. There's no like "Crouch cancelling tiger hidden shield poke" mystical moves out there to learn that are going to propel you to instant evo winner or even just new 'techniques' out there that are going to vastly increase your chances of holding your spot on the friendlies rotation once you've practiced them four or five times and call it a day (actually there is and it's called f-smash spamming hehehe). I think it's the situations that come up that are much more infinite than the amount of tools and techniques we can learn. Which is pretty wild to think about. Humans are playing the game and coming up with these situations with the limited amount of tools we have...but there's limitless possibilities to use the limited amount of tools we have. Wild.

You've really gotta cut away at a lot of psychological fluff to make a lot of these ideas work don't you? You can't really make plays rooted on the work that's been done in here if you're facing the match in a muddied and diluted space mentally, and maybe finding the triggers for those times and learning how to handle them would help (Lots of podcast episodes on that). Is that kind of what you were getting at when you said your stuff is hard to copy? and this lil phrase here "but I do think that so many of my mental blockages would have kept me from using it as fully as I have if those were still in place. This is also a reason against me using it better, as I still have other blockages. "?

Who runs the Bruce Lee podcast? That is important to me.

It makes sense a lot of their stuff helps here, since I was heavily influenced by Bruce Lee's work as I began to work on my neutral and become less robotic/stiff as a top player.

Yeah Marth is nice because he encourages abusing a few tools and not overcomplicating, and punishing you hard when you attempt it. However, people will still stress over every little tactic and technique instead of building on what they know works and expanding when they need to. The depth that comes from learning what really works at the heart of one tool expands to them all, etc. The variety and depth together are so beautiful!

Yes that is exactly why it's hard to copy. It's about overcoming yourself using Melee as a medium. Melee encourages you to challenge yourself and then to step outside yourself as you grow. If you hold on to those painful feelings and restrains because it's more comfortable than growth, then I can sit here all day and explain and demonstrate many techniques, but they won't sink in or be applied as effectively as you could use them. I mean, it's also just a really specific skillset even within the game, but the out of game stuff plays just as big of a role I believe. Especially in moments where you can only react and can't plan....that's where your true self will come out.

 

[Kopaka]

The podcast is ran by Shannon Lee (Bruce Lee's daughter) and Sharon Ann Lee of the Bruce Lee Foundation. You can find all the episodes here! https://www.brucelee.com/podcast/ it's also on iTunes and Spotify.

 

[Reyjavik]

I've been having trouble when shield pressured though.
This especially has been frustrating when at platforms and shielding. I get pushed off from attacks on platform and go into freefall but have no idea how to counteract this other than burning a jump. How do you guys solve this issue?

 

[Dr Peepee]

The podcast is ran by Shannon Lee (Bruce Lee's daughter) and Sharon Ann Lee of the Bruce Lee Foundation. You can find all the episodes here! https://www.brucelee.com/podcast/ it's also on iTunes and Spotify.

I've heard Shannon before and she didn't seem to go too deeply into his stuff from what I remember, but I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the link.

I've been having trouble when shield pressured though.
This especially has been frustrating when at platforms and shielding. I get pushed off from attacks on platform and go into freefall but have no idea how to counteract this other than burning a jump. How do you guys solve this issue?

If you fall off a platform facing away from the edge, just fast fall and you can normally land without being in tumble. Working on avoiding getting into shield on the platform is good too when possible, so that means not always shielding if the opponent drops a combo on a platform for example.

 

[vexoskeleton]

Why do you think it is that some players like sfat and axe can never quite make it to the top top level of play for a consistent amount of time? I've been wondering about this recently with how zain, amsa, and wizzy seem to be slowly edging their way to that top level of play with the current 6 while other players that have been at that level for a long time don't seem like they are likely to make the push to that level. All the players around there must have the motivation to get to the next level but for some reason they don't.

 

[Kopaka]

I've heard Shannon before and she didn't seem to go too deeply into his stuff from what I remember, but I'll give it a shot. Thanks for the link.


If you fall off a platform facing away from the edge, just fast fall and you can normally land without being in tumble. Working on avoiding getting into shield on the platform is good too when possible, so that means not always shielding if the opponent drops a combo on a platform for example.

When you say most competitors and their opponents aren't really expressing themselves until high level is it because of the mental blockages that people have that could get in the way of making decisions and the fact that there could be a lot of bad habits and errors one could be making that need to be tidied up before real clean play/deep expressive real play is possible? There's not a whole lot of real engagement or interaction in neutral at lower levels since most of it is either guesswork or haphazard responses, is that why?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Why do you think it is that some players like sfat and axe can never quite make it to the top top level of play for a consistent amount of time? I've been wondering about this recently with how zain, amsa, and wizzy seem to be slowly edging their way to that top level of play with the current 6 while other players that have been at that level for a long time don't seem like they are likely to make the push to that level. All the players around there must have the motivation to get to the next level but for some reason they don't.

This is not easy to answer for a variety of reasons. While I'm pretty sure I know some or all of them answers here, talking to them would make me most positive. Also, in general talking about specific players in this way is a thing that I don't like doing because it could come back to them or become some big issue.

Motivation aside, I believe one part of the answer is often about satisfaction. Some people have a vague vision or don't know what it is, so when they get skilled enough/recognized enough then they are fine with where they are. They may still love the game and want to compete hard, but directing that focus toward growth like before can become more difficult. I would believe this is part of the answer.

When you say most competitors and their opponents aren't really expressing themselves until high level is it because of the mental blockages that people have that could get in the way of making decisions and the fact that there could be a lot of bad habits and errors one could be making that need to be tidied up before real clean play/deep expressive real play is possible? There's not a whole lot of real engagement or interaction in neutral at lower levels since most of it is either guesswork or haphazard responses, is that why?

No, mental blockages do not necessarily change at high level, and often get worse in my experience. It's entirely about in-game mechanics and understanding and expressing that need to be joined through lots of effort first. And like I've said before, it's not that NO expression happens, but it's not a truer expression like it would be at high level.

 

[Kopaka]

Ohhh okay, that makes sense. Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Reyjavik]

Motivation aside, I believe one part of the answer is often about satisfaction. Some people have a vague vision or don't know what it is, so when they get skilled enough/recognized enough then they are fine with where they are. They may still love the game and want to compete hard, but directing that focus toward growth like before can become more difficult. I would believe this is part of the answer.

I feel like that's Mango rn. He played so good at Shine and I was honestly just happy to see him play out of his mind. Just thinking about playing in the best way my ego can be leaves me so lost in how to achieve a Mango like Zen of accepting losses and being happy with how I played.
My biggest unhappiness from the game doesn't come from how others may treat or play against me, but from my own play. I get super frustrated if the actions in game don't match what I intended my character to do.
What helped you take your ego out of the game in a negative way? I hear you used to taunt after every stock PP haha

 

[Dr Peepee]

LOL first of all, I only taunted at the end of matches when the opponent was dying. Partly as a reward for myself, partly so I wouldn't do tech that got me killed. Not to be rude to the opponent at all, though it seems it may have been taken that way. That was part of why I stopped though.

I realized I had competitive issue after reading "the inner game of tennis" while in a low point in life and Melee. I was feeling rough so I was ready for change, and I read that I needed to love my opponents and the challenges they provide instead of fear them or be angry with them. I needed to remember my early days. This rekindled the fire in me I used to feel and I began hunting for ways to tap back into that. Part of the result was no more taunting, as I didn't want there to be any ambiguity that I totally respected my opponent.

 

[Reyjavik]

what books do you recommend for that kind of stuff? in regards to life and melee? I'm slightly in that dark place but much better than before I started melee. I have a book or two rn for that but want to expand my interests.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The inner game of tennis, the art of learning. Those two for life/melee together.

I also found "the six pillars of self-esteem" along with "happier" and "unlimited power" to be generally good for me in tough times.

 

[AirFair]

The depth that comes from learning what really works at the heart of one tool expands to them all, etc. The variety and depth together are so beautiful!

So the variety is how we put tools together, and the depth is learning how they can be effectively used? It's like how we learn marth's rules and then as we build on those by learning more about our tools, and then begin to find the exceptions, which come from better exploring how each tool can be used in different situations. This shows us how even then, our basic moves/movements are still powerful. Might not have understood exactly what you meant but that's the idea that I get.

 

[Kotastic]

I think I'm starting to better internalize the purpose of long dash back and WD back, which is to avoid immediate unreactable attacks forward and observe to confirm my opponent's intentions. As for the latter purpose, could you also observe using long forward dash or is that limited to mostly reads.

https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=32s - Here I'm wondering if you confirmed anything to avoid Armada's full nair in here. I know that a long dash in is more likely to get a response, but I'm wondering if you reacted to any potential cues.

On topic of Sheik's fair...
https://gfycat.com/AptNaughtyAnaconda - I'm confused on where exactly I'm supposed to SH against Sheik's slight approaching fair in this manner. Even in place, it seems like I'm trading.

Oh yeah, regarding shield DI, how are you doing the inputs against say spacies shield pressure? Do you read or react the timings? When testing this, if I'm off I roll which often would make a rough situation worse as opposed to light shielding.

 

[peedy]

Hey pp. I've been analyzing a little bit of Armada vs Leffen fox dittos. Every time I watch them start a game on Dreamland they hover in and out of the platforms on opposite sides of the stage about 2 short hop Nair's apart. They play so far from each other and don't force neutral at all for about 4 to 5 dashes. Eventually, someone approaches.

I understand perhaps not wanting to play on the border of someone's threatening range but they are well beyond any threatening range. I just don't understand what those dashes are for? You can't whiff punish and you're giving up stage control. You're not feinting or baiting. Do you understand their thought process and do you think theirs any benefits to this? Their the best in the world at fox dittos so I feel like I must be missing something but if you check out any of their games on dreamland it is always the same at the start. Whats your opinion on this?

 

[Echo97]

So guys if I downthrow falco/fox off the stage, dtilt can’t cover double jump sweetspot to ledge, right (because there is a sweetspot....right?)?

In that case, what are some other ideas as to what I should to against the sweetspot jump?

 

[Plumpet]

I'm having trouble incorporating rising fair into my gameplan. I don't think I really understand the situations where it's really good. For example, against Fox I know you've said its a staple and that it works best when you think they're going to jump, or not crouch cancel, or shield so that you can space a fair in place on their shield. I'm having trouble visualizing the scenarios where I would want to rising fair instead of DD grab, since it can usually beat aerials and shielding. Also when I do get one I sometimes can't really followup since I'll be drifting back from my opponent to try and make it more safe. I've tried watching some of the top marths for examples, but it seems like they don't opt for it that often. Could you explain how I should be thinking about rising fair?

 

[Dr Peepee]

So the variety is how we put tools together, and the depth is learning how they can be effectively used? It's like how we learn marth's rules and then as we build on those by learning more about our tools, and then begin to find the exceptions, which come from better exploring how each tool can be used in different situations. This shows us how even then, our basic moves/movements are still powerful. Might not have understood exactly what you meant but that's the idea that I get.

That's more or less it. A tool stays interesting in itself as you go deeper, and then as it relates to other tools it provides variety as well. Working on part works on the whole. But again yeah you sound like you have the right theory.

I think I'm starting to better internalize the purpose of long dash back and WD back, which is to avoid immediate unreactable attacks forward and observe to confirm my opponent's intentions. As for the latter purpose, could you also observe using long forward dash or is that limited to mostly reads.

https://youtu.be/K6E6Zp5sYvs?t=32s - Here I'm wondering if you confirmed anything to avoid Armada's full nair in here. I know that a long dash in is more likely to get a response, but I'm wondering if you reacted to any potential cues.

Oh yeah, regarding shield DI, how are you doing the inputs against say spacies shield pressure? Do you read or react the timings? When testing this, if I'm off I roll which often would make a rough situation worse as opposed to light shielding.

I use long dash forward for observations all of the time, so yeah it's great.

In that clip, it's a bit hard to tell but I did go frame by frame and it looks possible I reacted to him moving in after the laser. I was likely to move back if I saw anything there anyway since I had gotten so close and wanted to observe what he'd do after I pushed in on his space.

Had to rewatch this Sheik clip a bit, but looks like you needed to Fair slightly earlier to win. Also if Sheik does drift in I believe you can JC grab it. You could also just not swing and let her swing first then hit/pressure her landing.

That's something I haven't tested much, but I think since you can SDI during stun, I think reacting to the stun on aerials is usually possible at least. For shines maybe not, but you can be pretty sure when they will or won't shine.

Hey pp. I've been analysing a little bit of Armada vs leffen fox dittos. Everytime I watch them start a game on dreamland they hover in and out of the platforms on opposite sides of the stage about 2 short hop Nair's apart. They play so far from each other and don't force neutral at all for about 4 to 5 dashes. I understand perhaps not wanting to play on the border of someone's threatening range but they are well beyond any threatening range. I just don't understand what those dashes are for? You can't whiff punish and your giving up stage control. Your not feinting or baiting. Do you understand their thought process and do you think theirs any benefits to this? Their the best in the world at fox dittos so I feel like I must be missing something but if you check out any of their games on dreamland it is always the same

I loaded up a game, and yes they do play (just) out of threatening range. This is so they can do partial approaches such as FH or SH in and bait, occasionally encouraging the other to whiff punish where they can't and getting punished themselves. Fox is so fast and can attack from so many angles that this strategy not only helps against reckless approaches but also makes all of the in between positions deeper. Lasering can also be part of this process, so if a Fox shoots a laser as the other goes in, then he's in lag while the other Fox gets to mix him up. But waiting for too long means the laser is free and sets tempo. They also are waiting to see if the other will throw a feint or partial approach and punish that. I imagine if you asked them they'd give you more specifics, but that's the general gist of it I'm pretty sure.

So guys if I downthrow falco/fox off the stage, dtilt can’t cover double jump sweetspot to ledge, right (because there is a sweetspot....right?)?

In that case, what are some other ideas as to what I should to against the sweetspot jump?

If you guess which way they will go you can walk and set up the correct Dtilt, but yeah runoff Fair, runoff DJ Dair, grab edge let go Fair/up-B, and I think SH Dair/maybe Fair/maybe shield breaker will hit it as well. Some of it is just going to depend on percent position and conditioning. At 0% if they hold in and you're not totally by the edge it's a pretty difficult position. I think there can be options like SH in place Bair/Fair them if they jump early or edgecancel Dair grab edge if they drop and such, but I'd need to lab it out.

I'm having trouble incorporating rising fair into my gameplan. I don't think I really understand the situations where it's really good. For example, against Fox I know you've said its a staple and that it works best when you think they're going to jump, or not crouch cancel, or shield so that you can space a fair in place on their shield. I'm having trouble visualizing the scenarios where I would want to rising fair instead of DD grab, since it can usually beat aerials and shielding. Also when I do get one I sometimes can't really followup since I'll be drifting back from my opponent to try and make it more safe. I've tried watching some of the top marths for examples, but it seems like they don't opt for it that often. Could you explain how I should be thinking about rising fair?

I like it more as an approaching tool than an in place or defensive tool, though it can be good after a dash/run in to help you control space and give your dash/run in depth. It mixes up with moving in and Dtilt'ing or even grabbing so they can't just move back or shield if you move in so they must jump. This is what rising Fair beats. If you're unsure and just drift back, then that's still fine and that creates a new situation and new damage you can take advantage of. It is still a fairly risky tool to not fully pull back with if you haven't manipulated them well, but if you see the opponent FH in place/SH in as you come in, then that's what rising Fair is primarily meant to beat, in addition to pressuring shield. If you aren't encouraging those so much, or you're beating SH in with grab, then you don't have to worry about it though.