Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[peedy]

Thanks maybe when I figure out how to make clips I'll start asking about threatening range. Real eye opener appreciate it

 

[Plumpet]

That's more or less it. A tool stays interesting in itself as you go deeper, and then as it relates to other tools it provides variety as well. Working on part works on the whole. But again yeah you sound like you have the right theory.


I use long dash forward for observations all of the time, so yeah it's great.

In that clip, it's a bit hard to tell but I did go frame by frame and it looks possible I reacted to him moving in after the laser. I was likely to move back if I saw anything there anyway since I had gotten so close and wanted to observe what he'd do after I pushed in on his space.

Had to rewatch this Sheik clip a bit, but looks like you needed to Fair slightly earlier to win. Also if Sheik does drift in I believe you can JC grab it. You could also just not swing and let her swing first then hit/pressure her landing.

That's something I haven't tested much, but I think since you can SDI during stun, I think reacting to the stun on aerials is usually possible at least. For shines maybe not, but you can be pretty sure when they will or won't shine.


I loaded up a game, and yes they do play (just) out of threatening range. This is so they can do partial approaches such as FH or SH in and bait, occasionally encouraging the other to whiff punish where they can't and getting punished themselves. Fox is so fast and can attack from so many angles that this strategy not only helps against reckless approaches but also makes all of the in between positions deeper. Lasering can also be part of this process, so if a Fox shoots a laser as the other goes in, then he's in lag while the other Fox gets to mix him up. But waiting for too long means the laser is free and sets tempo. They also are waiting to see if the other will throw a feint or partial approach and punish that. I imagine if you asked them they'd give you more specifics, but that's the general gist of it I'm pretty sure.


If you guess which way they will go you can walk and set up the correct Dtilt, but yeah runoff Fair, runoff DJ Dair, grab edge let go Fair/up-B, and I think SH Dair/maybe Fair/maybe shield breaker will hit it as well. Some of it is just going to depend on percent position and conditioning. At 0% if they hold in and you're not totally by the edge it's a pretty difficult position. I think there can be options like SH in place Bair/Fair them if they jump early or edgecancel Dair grab edge if they drop and such, but I'd need to lab it out.


I like it more as an approaching tool than an in place or defensive tool, though it can be good after a dash/run in to help you control space and give your dash/run in depth. It mixes up with moving in and Dtilt'ing or even grabbing so they can't just move back or shield if you move in so they must jump. This is what rising Fair beats. If you're unsure and just drift back, then that's still fine and that creates a new situation and new damage you can take advantage of. It is still a fairly risky tool to not fully pull back with if you haven't manipulated them well, but if you see the opponent FH in place/SH in as you come in, then that's what rising Fair is primarily meant to beat, in addition to pressuring shield. If you aren't encouraging those so much, or you're beating SH in with grab, then you don't have to worry about it though.

Ah i see. Maybe I haven't been finding too much of a place for it because most of the foxes i play dont really respond to my dtilts with jumping.

couple more questions:

-duck says that samus loses to marth because he can shield and punish anything samus can do on his shield with fair, grab, etc. What do you think about that

-what were your general thoughts on zain hbox at shine? I felt like zain kinda played his usual dash dance style but he won 3-2 and 3-1. What kind of good stuff did he do that i should take away?

 

[Kotastic]

In juggle scenario like these, would going for more up-airs for combo potential be better or fair for center positioning?

https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=6m27s
https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=14m37s

Would the answer change if the opponent being juggled is like Marth (mid-floaty), Puff (5 jumps), or Peach (floaty)?

 

[deft1]

Hello PP! Since you came from a somewhat secluded state as well, I thought you might be able to relate to this question. Right now, I'm #1 in my state (Oklahoma), but I feel that I am plateuing a little bit although I know there are a ton of things I could work on, and can pinpoint them. My main issue is I don't fight good enough opponents regularly, and my question is this: how do you keep expanding your horizons in terms of gameplay while not having consistent access to good players? I can netplay some decent people sometimes, but I feel that I learn significantly less since I can't immediately apply my lessons learned.

Another question if you don't mind. Lately I have had an issue in my mentality where I desperately want to prove myself to other people. As I rose up my state's ranks in the past, I didn't have this issue because I was friends with mostly everyone. But, now that Im going to majors and regionals outside of my state, I always want to prove that I am good to people, and I cant help but feel this makes me play worse. I have this thought in the back of my head that I want people's approval and praise, and I honestly can't tell you where it stems from. Maybe a lack of confidence. Anyways, my question is, how would you deal with such an issue? Maybe use it as a tool for myself? I'm honestly not sure how to approach it, and it's hindering my ability to perform outside of my region.

 

[iCrash]

What are good sets to look at for examples of good grounded movement, dashdance, dtilt spacing, etc.?

Also, why do players move to platforms in neutral if marth having control of center stage is so strong, especially in Marth dittos / against characters with good anti-airs?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ah i see. Maybe I haven't been finding too much of a place for it because most of the foxes i play dont really respond to my dtilts with jumping.

couple more questions:

-duck says that samus loses to marth because he can shield and punish anything samus can do on his shield with fair, grab, etc. What do you think about that

-what were your general thoughts on zain hbox at shine? I felt like zain kinda played his usual dash dance style but he won 3-2 and 3-1. What kind of good stuff did he do that i should take away?

Hmmm...what an interesting way to phrase it. I don't like shielding as Marth but that's probably worth exploiting.

I won't go in depth yet as I haven't finished rewatching GFs and this stuff gets around more than I like. I think Hbox could have played a lot better and seemed to abandon what worked after early game 1 of WS, and Zain didn't aerial into shield a lot in neutral anymore. He had better zoning positions and patterns to beat different Bair walls as well instead of swinging and hoping. Doing things like mid/late Fair into immediate Nair helped him hit some late Bair vs land into rising Bair timings for example.

In juggle scenario like these, would going for more up-airs for combo potential be better or fair for center positioning?

https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=6m27s
https://youtu.be/UnDScqPB2kY?t=14m37s

Would the answer change if the opponent being juggled is like Marth (mid-floaty), Puff (5 jumps), or Peach (floaty)?

In both cases you want to do at least one Uair. The first scenario you could get away with 2-3 I'd imagine but they can all be mixed between Uair and Fair. The second one you need to Uair(preferably weak) so you can get in position to cover everything out of it and begin to hit Sheik offstage/maybe set up some off the top kill.

Depends on the resources for the second situation for your hypothetical other characters. First situation you'd want to Uair Marth and maybe Peach but not Puff. Second situation you can Uair Peach and Marth probably but Puff is more of a judgment call. If Puff had no jumps then absolutely hit her up so she doesn't have an easier time getting down.

Hello PP! Since you came from a somewhat secluded state as well, I thought you might be able to relate to this question. Right now, I'm #1 in my state (Oklahoma), but I feel that I am plateuing a little bit although I know there are a ton of things I could work on, and can pinpoint them. My main issue is I don't fight good enough opponents regularly, and my question is this: how do you keep expanding your horizons in terms of gameplay while not having consistent access to good players? I can netplay some decent people sometimes, but I feel that I learn significantly less since I can't immediately apply my lessons learned.

Another question if you don't mind. Lately I have had an issue in my mentality where I desperately want to prove myself to other people. As I rose up my state's ranks in the past, I didn't have this issue because I was friends with mostly everyone. But, now that Im going to majors and regionals outside of my state, I always want to prove that I am good to people, and I cant help but feel this makes me play worse. I have this thought in the back of my head that I want people's approval and praise, and I honestly can't tell you where it stems from. Maybe a lack of confidence. Anyways, my question is, how would you deal with such an issue? Maybe use it as a tool for myself? I'm honestly not sure how to approach it, and it's hindering my ability to perform outside of my region.

I would teach my closest opponents and especially training partners as much as I could. I would tell them everything I was punishing and my gameplan. The better they got and more they exploited me, the better I could play against their counters and improve myself and my knowledge. In the meantime there will always be plenty to practice and plenty to analyze to bring into testing and training sessions. We can discuss it more if you like, I do certainly understand your situation.

I had this issue pretty badly too, but I applied that feeling every time I felt it into doing more work, and when I was at events I decided that I needed to shut everything out and focus on my joy of competing and the challenge of those in front of me. It's harder in this day and age though.

When I REALLY wanted to root out psychological issues, I began reading and spending time meditating on what I learned and my responses to things. I began asking what is my core thought at the center of my feeling. If I got mad, I was usually afraid of being judged or failing..."will anyone like me if I mess up? "my parents never seemed to say it was okay to fail and made me think I had to only succeed....will I disappoint them if I fail at anything?" And so on. But when I get into it with myself I begin to reclaim authority of my emotions and choose what to think when I feel bad. "losing hurts and I wonder if I can really prove what I want to to others and myself, but I also trust my training and myself to do better. This worry is temporary, but my goals remain."

Let me know if you find this helpful.

What are good sets to look at for examples of good grounded movement, dashdance, dtilt spacing, etc.?

Also, why do players move to platforms in neutral if marth having control of center stage is so strong, especially in Marth dittos / against characters with good anti-airs?

Generally Marth dittos and Marth vs Sheik will show you more of that. A lot of my stuff is like that, and M2K's is like it too. More Marths jump these days so you may have to go back a bit.

Spacies move to platforms because they can attack from many angles there so it can offset Marth's advantages somewhat. I don't think any other character should do it. In the ditto if you see a Marth get on a platform, then it's free reign to set up outside of their drop through Fair range and wait, while mixing in some run in retreating Fair to harass them for free.

 

[deft1]

wow, i never even thought of teaching my training partners as much as i know and my gameplan vs them, that is really insightful and im sure it will help me in the future! regarding the mentality issue, when i ask myself what is the core root of the emotion, the most i can surmise is that i want to win so that i can get recognition from my fellow peers and get their praise because i don't have much confidence in myself. looking forward, i can definitely put more focus into my enjoyment of the game and competing rather than trying to prove myself to others, as well as focusing on gameplans/opponents/matchups/etc.

once again thank you for the replies pp i really do appreciate it, your consistency in helping people is incredible, thank you so much.

 

[Reyjavik]

Hey PP, have you read History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi? I'm rereading it and its giving me a bit more insight in how to handle improvement and improve my game in general.
I think right now I'm focusing on taking space with moves but its hard to do against better opponents and its still frustrating to have what's happening in the game not reflect what I intend. Also found out that there's a janky Charlotte melee page and official one lol

 

[Kotastic]

When you back dash at a range where Fox can almost running shine and has to slightly overshoot to hit you, what can Marth do the moment you confirm that Fox is dashing towards you?

In fact in general, how do you react when Fox generally dash forwards in response to your dash dance? What does this convey you?

As of late, I'm kind of stuck when to do movement stuff and when to zone. I remember getting somewhere when I was a bit more stationary with less movement and more zoning, and things made more sense. The moment I add two more dashes though, things start to blur and I start to autopilot tbh. I don't know how else to phrase this question other than that I can't utilize Marth's dash dance very well and can only use it effectively when I'm more in place with zoning like just one long dash back. I just get hit otherwise without really feeling like I got outplayed and moreso me missing some picture. While playing more in place makes more sense to me, it feels like I'm ignoring one of Marth's greater strengths as a character with crisp movement options to seamlessly weave around especially in matchups that require me to play fast like Fox and Falcon.

I guess even though zoning might be okay even in the long run, I just feel dissatisfied.

 

[peedy]

Hi PP recently I've been doing more research on using metronomes. I'm not sure if you knew all of this but the benefits to using a metronome is amazing! Using a metronome apparently helps cure add/adhd by resyncing your internal timing/brain waves. Playing it while you sleep helps improve your sleep. And even using a metronome outside of smash dramatically improves your rhythm and timing. It also helps with your perception of time. I'm thinking that playing other games that involve a lot of rhythm, learning how to dance and playing an instrument could dramatically improve myself in smash. I've been using the metronome to improve my dash dance and had almost 4 stocked a player on netplay who's been destroying me all year. I won all 6 of our games and was never brought to last stock. Either way thanks for some of the amazing advice

I have 1 question for today

I have read the posts on threat range with yort and I think I'm confused. Is threat range right outside of your opponents farthest attack? Or is threat range being as close as possible to your opponent while still being able to react. For example if I'm on one side of dreamland and falcon uses his farthest nair to reach me. I can react but he can still hit me. Does that mean I was in his threatening range even though I can react?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, have you read History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi? I'm rereading it and its giving me a bit more insight in how to handle improvement and improve my game in general.
I think right now I'm focusing on taking space with moves but its hard to do against better opponents and its still frustrating to have what's happening in the game not reflect what I intend. Also found out that there's a janky Charlotte melee page and official one lol

No, what is it about?

Glad you found the real page lol.

When you back dash at a range where Fox can almost running shine and has to slightly overshoot to hit you, what can Marth do the moment you confirm that Fox is dashing towards you?

In fact in general, how do you react when Fox generally dash forwards in response to your dash dance? What does this convey you?

As of late, I'm kind of stuck when to do movement stuff and when to zone. I remember getting somewhere when I was a bit more stationary with less movement and more zoning, and things made more sense. The moment I add two more dashes though, things start to blur and I start to autopilot tbh. I don't know how else to phrase this question other than that I can't utilize Marth's dash dance very well and can only use it effectively when I'm more in place with zoning like just one long dash back. I just get hit otherwise without really feeling like I got outplayed and moreso me missing some picture. While playing more in place makes more sense to me, it feels like I'm ignoring one of Marth's greater strengths as a character with crisp movement options to seamlessly weave around especially in matchups that require me to play fast like Fox and Falcon.

I guess even though zoning might be okay even in the long run, I just feel dissatisfied.

It depends a bit on whether you dash back at the range you describe, or you're at that range after dashing back. In both cases you can stall out your grab to confirm Fox isn't so likely to dash back/FH and then you can dash in grab, or just time a pivot retreating early Fair that will beat them grabbing or shining or aerial'ing.

A bit hard to answer this next question. A dash dance can be cut so many ways and they could be responding to you not doing much with it/waiting, or you getting inside reaction range, or you moving away so they feel they can take space. I don't know. I think it's related to the main question though.

Why not also experiment with a long dash in? Such as Dtilt then dash in and retreating Fair or Fair in place, etc? It sounds like you're adding too much complexity too quickly, as well as relying on hoping people fall into your dash back after doing a move. This dash back is a very very common Marth problem and I think it's good to talk a little about now. The reason it becomes common is because it helps you dodge and counter hit many approaches, and playing off of aerials people often want to come in when they know you're in lag, which the dash back puts you in position to punish. It can be hard to approach then playing like this, and it also makes you dash in have no teeth, since no one expects you to approach much or even zone forward that much.
I don't mean to make it sound like I'm avoiding your question about movement, but this is how you would build it up. Slowly adding complexity and rounding out your game to include more offense/experimentation with dash in. You could also do other things out of dash back like a WD/dash/run in if you want to experiment with a bit more. But these minor adjustments can have a lot put together is what I'm getting at. If you suddenly stop always dashing back and instead double attack in place or mix in moving forward, then you've suddenly deepened your zoning by a major amount, and forced opponents to respect your actions way more. This is largely without doing extra movement. So starting there before adding in more movement to deepen these new threats can be a good idea. Does this make sense?

Hi PP recently I've been doing more research on using metronomes. I'm not sure if you knew all of this but the benefits to using a metronome is amazing! Using a metronome apparently helps cure add/adhd by resyncing your internal timing/brain waves. Playing it while you sleep helps improve your sleep. And even using a metronome outside of smash dramatically improves your rhythm and timing. It also helps with your perception of time. I'm thinking that playing other games that involve a lot of rhythm, learning how to dance and playing an instrument could dramatically improve myself in smash. I've been using the metronome to improve my dash dance and had almost 4 stocked a player on netplay who's been destroying me all year. I won all 6 of our games and was never brought to last stock. Either way thanks for some of the amazing advice

I have 1 question for today

I have read the posts on threat range with yort and I think I'm confused. Is threat range right outside of your opponents farthest attack? Or is threat range being as close as possible to your opponent while still being able to react. For example if I'm on one side of dreamland and falcon uses his farthest nair to reach me. I can react but he can still hit me. Does that mean I was in his threatening range even though I can react?

Innterestinggg....writing that down. Music does seem to have a benefit to fighting game players I have noticed, and it does seem to help people in a variety of areas.

Threatening range is also reaction range. It's just outside of their farthest plus quickest attack if done immediately, which means you can react to it. Technically, it's a bit farther than that since DD and conditioning manipulate what you can react to.

 

[Kotastic]

Alright. I think for now then, I'll forgo studying your past vods because I think they're far too complicated for my current understanding. I'll just start simple with one long dash mixed with some zoning and see how it plays out. I'll update you on how that goes in the coming months.

 

[Kotastic]

https://youtu.be/ZZnsthx74c4?t=1m25s
https://youtu.be/ZZnsthx74c4?t=7m42s

These Fox edgeguard scenarios has me a bit stumped. It seems really awkward for Marth to go out there for what I thought was a guaranteed edgeguard, but Fox just simply drifting in/away and recovering low might be the counter to force a read instead. What are your thoughts on this?

 

[Dr Peepee]

For the first, he could have used shield breaker or dropped and DJ Faird the up-B. For the second, yeah that's more of an issue. You could maybe DJ back to stage by the time you confirm they drop, but you might not be able to set up the next edgeguard to the extent you normally would for that new position then. I do agree that this isn't the best way to go about this normally, though it's nice to do sometimes or fake doing some in order to stop the side B/up-B mixup that occurs around that space a lot.

 

[peedy]

So just to be clear. Drugged fox says the average player should be able to react in 15 frames. 12 frames reaction 3 frames input lag (I think we can react much faster) So are you saying if I'm 16 frames away I'm not in the threatening range assuming he doesn't dash in first? Sorry I'm a little dense

 

[Dr Peepee]

I would just eyeball it and test it out yourself if I were you. Fox immediate SH Nair, plus a little bit of a dash, is usually considered his TR. I don't know the frames of it, but it could be somewhere around there.

 

[peedy]

thank you!

 

[quixotic]

Hi PP recently I've been doing more research on using metronomes. I'm not sure if you knew all of this but the benefits to using a metronome is amazing! Using a metronome apparently helps cure add/adhd by resyncing your internal timing/brain waves. Playing it while you sleep helps improve your sleep. And even using a metronome outside of smash dramatically improves your rhythm and timing. It also helps with your perception of time. I'm thinking that playing other games that involve a lot of rhythm, learning how to dance and playing an instrument could dramatically improve myself in smash. I've been using the metronome to improve my dash dance and had almost 4 stocked a player on netplay who's been destroying me all year. I won all 6 of our games and was never brought to last stock. Either way thanks for some of the amazing advice

I have 1 question for today

I have read the posts on threat range with yort and I think I'm confused. Is threat range right outside of your opponents farthest attack? Or is threat range being as close as possible to your opponent while still being able to react. For example if I'm on one side of dreamland and falcon uses his farthest nair to reach me. I can react but he can still hit me. Does that mean I was in his threatening range even though I can react?

Yeah I think metronomes are sick I usually do 250 and 300bpm. I sometimes use them when I feel like my melee play is inefficient/choppy to recalibrate/simplify my dash dance.

 

[Reyjavik]

No, what is it about?

Glad you found the real page lol.


It depends a bit on whether you dash back at the range you describe, or you're at that range after dashing back. In both cases you can stall out your grab to confirm Fox isn't so likely to dash back/FH and then you can dash in grab, or just time a pivot retreating early Fair that will beat them grabbing or shining or aerial'ing.

A bit hard to answer this next question. A dash dance can be cut so many ways and they could be responding to you not doing much with it/waiting, or you getting inside reaction range, or you moving away so they feel they can take space. I don't know. I think it's related to the main question though.

Why not also experiment with a long dash in? Such as Dtilt then dash in and retreating Fair or Fair in place, etc? It sounds like you're adding too much complexity too quickly, as well as relying on hoping people fall into your dash back after doing a move. This dash back is a very very common Marth problem and I think it's good to talk a little about now. The reason it becomes common is because it helps you dodge and counter hit many approaches, and playing off of aerials people often want to come in when they know you're in lag, which the dash back puts you in position to punish. It can be hard to approach then playing like this, and it also makes you dash in have no teeth, since no one expects you to approach much or even zone forward that much.
I don't mean to make it sound like I'm avoiding your question about movement, but this is how you would build it up. Slowly adding complexity and rounding out your game to include more offense/experimentation with dash in. You could also do other things out of dash back like a WD/dash/run in if you want to experiment with a bit more. But these minor adjustments can have a lot put together is what I'm getting at. If you suddenly stop always dashing back and instead double attack in place or mix in moving forward, then you've suddenly deepened your zoning by a major amount, and forced opponents to respect your actions way more. This is largely without doing extra movement. So starting there before adding in more movement to deepen these new threats can be a good idea. Does this make sense?


Innterestinggg....writing that down. Music does seem to have a benefit to fighting game players I have noticed, and it does seem to help people in a variety of areas.

Threatening range is also reaction range. It's just outside of their farthest plus quickest attack if done immediately, which means you can react to it. Technically, it's a bit farther than that since DD and conditioning manipulate what you can react to.

it’s about a normal person with no talent being introduced to martial arts. He grows not from any amazing talent but that of Hard work. There’s a ton of concepts I instantly thought of in melee, both gameplay and mentally. It’s super good and I’d recommend it

 

[Zorcey]

I've hit another plateau lately, and I've found it pretty discouraging, but I'm doing my best to approach it from a more positive and objective mindset than my previous ones. It's hard, but I think I've made significant progress with handling these kinds of challenges, so that's good I guess. I figure I'll just kind of outline what's on my mind:

I've realized lately I've never actually tried my hardest in Melee except for some very brief moments - it's some difference between just trying to win and truly "putting it all out there" that's difficult to articulate. (It may or may be consciously trying to win, but subconsciously trying to lose vs. consciously and subconsciously trying to win.) Looking deeper into my own head, I think it's because I don't want to: because I'm afraid of both success, and failure. You've mentioned the phenomenon of self-sabotage before, and while I don't understand it yet, I'm starting to realize how deeply ingrained it is in my play. I can think of several psychological blocks that could contribute to it, but I'm not really sure how to go about removing them once I recognize them. I don't think I can move forward much without addressing this issue, because it's gotten to a point where I'm throwing literally every set I play - unless my opponent is almost impossible to lose to, I'll find a way to do it.
At the same time, I feel like I'm just enabling myself by believing I can suddenly become a significantly better player if I just fix my mentality problems, when really what I need to do is continue working on in-game understanding. But... I really do believe that, and I think part of getting over my proclivity for self-sabotage is to keep working on trusting myself, so I'm conflicted. Either way, my mentality problems have gotten to point that working on the game is no longer pleasurable, because regardless of how much I know I'm still going to find that smallest opportunity to lose. Not sure what to do myself at this point, so I'd suuuper appreciate any advice you have to offer, and if you need any specific clarification I can give that as well.

My other main issue is I'm still struggling with bringing complexity into simplicity. I always try repeating to myself "keep it simple" when playing, but since right now I'm working with many concepts that are new to me when I practice, it doesn't feel like it's possible. Is the idea to be comfortable with the complexity when practicing, and just let it internalize and become simple through repetition, or to focus hard on keeping it simple, and integrate new things slowly so they don't overcomplicate your strategy? Do you always try to play simple, or nah?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Before I respond, am I remembering correctly that you had a goal to make a certain placement at Shine? If so, how did that go?

I'm glad you have made mindset progress! I think that is more beneficial than you realize, so please keep pushing it to go from "I guess it's good" to "I'm happy about this."

I think this is a very important moment and challenge for you. You're being very honest with yourself, and many people don't get to that level of honesty often. I think for that alone, you can open up a lot of opportunities and you should be proud of yourself. Yes, many people hold back. They don't want to fail while putting it all out there, or don't think they deserve to do it, or by losing when putting everything on the line you protect yourself from past pain, an old habit. What you're also absolutely right about is how much this is holding you back. If you change this, then your results massively change. Not overnight, but within weeks and months you will see yourself become a very different person in and out of game. Beyond this, I'd need to know what specifically blocks you. I think you didn't post what they were for a reason, and so if you'd like to privately message me what they are we can continue this discussion there. If you bring that same level of honesty and desire to grow to our conversation, then I will do my best to help you through this.

Keeping it simple means not overwhelming yourself as well. Small things can have a big impact, so get those down before adding new things. Complexity is the result of many small things working together on a deeper level, so please approach it that way.

 

[Zorcey]

My bracket at Shine went pretty badly ahaha, I went out with a disappointing 257th. I should mention here it's not the placing I'm ashamed of so much as the fact that I believe my tournament play didn't reflect my training at all - based on who I beat, I think I would have placed the same even a year ago, and I've become a much stronger player since then. Thinking about that since the tournament, what I've concluded is that I'm not just a Melee player - or perhaps not even primarily a Melee player - I'm a competitor, and I have to learn how to compete. I've neglected learning to compete, if not thinking it is then at least treating it like an aside, so it shouldn't really surprise me that I autopilot and my brain fogs up whenever there's pressure on me. What we're discussing here feels like critical first steps.

Okay, I'll be sure to keep working at it. I think being tentative about it comes from the fact I'm hesitant to be too pleased about clearing mentality hurdles when I'm still... not very good at the game lol. (I've noticed a trend lately toward disparaging players for working on mentality at mid levels, and I think it's wormed its way into my head a bit.)

The idea that by rooting out these blockages I could become so much stronger in and out of game in just months is ridiculously exciting tbh. What you say here definitely resonates - especially the part about not "deserving" the win, but really all of it.

As for the specifics that are probably contributing to my blockages, yeah, I think I'd prefer to privately message you. I don't think they'd be holding back from the conversation here too much anyway. Thanks so much in advance. Should I message you on... here? Reddit? Idk.

Okay. What I get from this is to focus on the smaller parts of the bigger concepts I already have down whenever possible, and once I feel like I have a relative mastery of those, only then should I really start on totally new concepts. (And when new perspectives on concepts I'm experienced with come up, I should try to integrate them as soon as possible, and over time that will build complexity which coalesces into simplicity.)

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's never a bad time to improve yourself. Also, giving positive reinforcement is great for your own feelings and also making you take real, honest stock of where you are.

I'm not promising a shortcut to becoming a top player, that will still take years, but getting started is the hardest part =p

Messaging here is fine, but if you prefer Reddit you can use that.

 

[Zorcey]

Messaged you on here, take your time replying if you need it. (Don't worry guys imma get all the secrets for becoming a top player in a week from PP and I'll post them on Reddit.)

 

[Reyjavik]

That's good to hear Zorcey, however I think another way you can use to improve your mentality is not seeing a plateau or barrier. Instead seeing minor chasms in a gameplan that can be filled but aren't blocking your way is a healthier way to improve.
Progress from different games is always interesting to see and while proficiency increases with time, if you zoom in on the graph, you will always see minor troughs and peaks.
Its so funny I find this game's meta so hard to grasp when I come from equally as challenging and punishing games. I've been working on my mentality and accepting more of what's wrong with me. The game is neutral and isn't out to get me so I need to improve in some aspect if I'm getting mad at it

 

[YNZ]

Hey PP! This might be a strange question (hopefully it hasnt already been asked thousands of times) but what do you think about when you play matches?

I think that I'm at that point where I can consistently 4 stock newer players (who dont really know tech skill and how to really move around - the kind of players who miss techs all the time, always getup attack, and only C-stick and whatnot) but once people start moving and comboing me it starts to get difficult.

When im playing matches all i really think about are really obvious patterns (like if they always tech in or getup attack). I feel like this is good vs newer players but vs better players I kind of fall apart. They trick me with their movement, combo the crap outta me, and i feel like im just getting read and destroyed.

Sometimes I feel like im too dumb to read what better players are doing (the kind that know to mix up their teching patterns and dont always approach with dash attack) and its driving me nuts and making me feel like i have reached a cap in skill!

Example: I played this marth in tournament and i swear hed only dash attack or grab when approaching me and I still couldnt get a read on which one he was gonna do and every time he touched me id get 0-deathed. Is there any way to prevent this other than just getting hard reads on whether hell approach with DA or grab? Or is this just a 50 - 50 situation where i just gotta guess and pray?

Am I missing something really key that I should be thinking about during matches other than just trying to get hard reads on obvious patterns?

Thanks a ton in advance!

 

[Echo97]

PPMD, I sometimes have a lot of trouble with having spacies destroy me when they get too close. Falco often hails me with lasers and eventually gets one shine opening that leads to immense damage or even a kill. Fox often runs through me with a multitude of shines that get me offstage in a bad position.

If you have time, could you briefly talk about the utilities I should be using vs both of the different spacies?

Thanks Kevin really miss you

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee If you were going to teach somebody Melee for six months, what are the things you'd want them to practice and understand the most of? Both in and out of the game? Lets say they main probably Marth.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP! This might be a strange question (hopefully it hasnt already been asked thousands of times) but what do you think about when you play matches?

I think that I'm at that point where I can consistently 4 stock newer players (who dont really know tech skill and how to really move around - the kind of players who miss techs all the time, always getup attack, and only C-stick and whatnot) but once people start moving and comboing me it starts to get difficult.

When im playing matches all i really think about are really obvious patterns (like if they always tech in or getup attack). I feel like this is good vs newer players but vs better players I kind of fall apart. They trick me with their movement, combo the crap outta me, and i feel like im just getting read and destroyed.

Sometimes I feel like im too dumb to read what better players are doing (the kind that know to mix up their teching patterns and dont always approach with dash attack) and its driving me nuts and making me feel like i have reached a cap in skill!

Example: I played this marth in tournament and i swear hed only dash attack or grab when approaching me and I still couldnt get a read on which one he was gonna do and every time he touched me id get 0-deathed. Is there any way to prevent this other than just getting hard reads on whether hell approach with DA or grab? Or is this just a 50 - 50 situation where i just gotta guess and pray?

Am I missing something really key that I should be thinking about during matches other than just trying to get hard reads on obvious patterns?

Thanks a ton in advance!

Yeah, what about trying to manipulate your opponent? If you did a Fair in place or a Dtilt in place, and then that always encouraged their approach, it would be easier to understand right? Perhaps you would like to mess with controlling your own space and seeing what they do. Also, you would probably find WD back to work well vs both of those approaches someone uses. Maybe play around with this and see if it helps?

PPMD, I sometimes have a lot of trouble with having spacies destroy me when they get too close. Falco often hails me with lasers and eventually gets one shine opening that leads to immense damage or even a kill. Fox often runs through me with a multitude of shines that get me offstage in a bad position.

If you have time, could you briefly talk about the utilities I should be using vs both of the different spacies?

Thanks Kevin really miss you

Yes, when both spacies get too close it's very difficult for Marth. Try taking Falco's lasers and jabbing his approach or dashing back. This can help beat any immediate approaches or slow down his laser game. You can then use more dash attack, or jumping over lasers with AC Nair. You can also use more powershield, such as crouch or dash back PS, which make it much more consistent. Lightshielding when Falco is close is something Zain does you may find helpful sometimes, and can get grabs.

Vs Fox, try to get a late Fair/Dtilt out or dash back and grab if you see him coming in. Early retreating Fair and sometimes Nair can be great too. Once he's on you, it's difficult to get him off. If he comes in fully a lot, you can also intercept him with approaching grab.

Thank you

Dr Peepee If you were going to teach somebody Melee for six months, what are the things you'd want them to practice and understand the most of? Both in and out of the game? Lets say they main probably Marth.

Basic tech(WD, basic SHFFLs,) WD/RC Dtilt, run up retreating early Fair, AC Nair, edgehop Fair mixed with DJ to lip of stage jab/Fsmash/Dtilt, spacie CG, basic throw tech chasing for the first iteration(so Uthrow spacie on platform land the Utilt consistently, or Fthrow vs Falcon get the regrab once), maybe some edgeguarding stuff. I'd want them to remember not to force kills and let Marth's sword do the work for you. I'd try to build their interest in learning and practicing and testing through positive reinforcement and excitement that there is something new and interesting to learn all of the time, and taking their questions and concerns seriously.

 

[Kopaka]

When you meditate for as long as you do, do you lean your back against anything? Or are there breaks at times? What are some changes you've had in yourself since starting the practice?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I typically lean against a chair, but any straight surface works fine for me that I've tried. I don't take any purposeful breaks, but occasionally I do open my eyes for whatever reason.

The effects and growth are largely stagnant since my health issues, but even so I can still tell it helps increase oxygen flow and makes my breathing more even throughout the day, and it builds concentration greatly while reducing anxiety and chaotic thoughts. I am also better able to catch myself before I say something incorrect or out of emotion if need be.

 

[peedy]

Do you think using the 20xx bot is useful for reaction to the opponent's dash dance and wave dash? I know you cant condition them but it might be good to practice spacing and shadow boxing yes? Or do you think theirs better ways

 

[capusa27]

Hi, everyone/ Dr Peepee

Recently, I was watching some new YouTube videos about the Falcon/Marth matchup. These videos involved ways of dealing with getting out of Marth's techchases and tech traps on the side platform. What sort of impact does this have for Marth as players try to develop hard solutions/workarounds to these problems?

I know that F-smash works well for this DI combination as well as waveland/no impact land into grab, but they don't seem like the most efficient options to me. Maybe various combinations of dancing blades would work? Maybe waveland/no impact land into shield drop pushoff (like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fo2ZIewpRo)

Here are the Falcon videos for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVIqkJyzuho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkItND-OLa4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiEYWOZManE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmwKFrgZ48s

Here is something from Twitter, too:
https://twitter.com/overshot_nair/status/1028849859577688064 (Scroll down the page for more information)

 

[quixotic]

Hi, everyone/ Dr Peepee

Recently, I was watching some new YouTube videos about the Falcon/Marth matchup. These videos involved ways of dealing with getting out of Marth's techchases and tech traps on the side platform. What sort of impact does this have for Marth as players try to develop hard solutions/workarounds to these problems?

I know that F-smash works well for this DI combination as well as waveland/no impact land into grab, but they don't seem like the most efficient options to me. Maybe various combinations of dancing blades would work? Maybe waveland/no impact land into shield drop pushoff (like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fo2ZIewpRo)

Here are the Falcon videos for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVIqkJyzuho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkItND-OLa4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiEYWOZManE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmwKFrgZ48s

Here is something from Twitter, too:
https://twitter.com/overshot_nair/status/1028849859577688064 (Scroll down the page for more information)

check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWweGqO7VBM&ab_channel=AdamFarmer
also by setchi

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you think using the 20xx bot is useful for reaction to the opponent's dash dance and wave dash? I know you cant condition them but it might be good to practice spacing and shadow boxing yes? Or do you think theirs better ways

I think the modern bot is just a spaz right? Yeah I wouldn't recommend it. You could have a stationary character and move around that, then maybe play around a cpu that walks toward you if you want something right there in front of you. Beyond that, I suppose you could use the replay feature to make it do different movements and do different responses to those. But spazbot I think is bad.

Hi, everyone/ Dr Peepee

Recently, I was watching some new YouTube videos about the Falcon/Marth matchup. These videos involved ways of dealing with getting out of Marth's techchases and tech traps on the side platform. What sort of impact does this have for Marth as players try to develop hard solutions/workarounds to these problems?

I know that F-smash works well for this DI combination as well as waveland/no impact land into grab, but they don't seem like the most efficient options to me. Maybe various combinations of dancing blades would work? Maybe waveland/no impact land into shield drop pushoff (like so: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fo2ZIewpRo)

Here are the Falcon videos for reference:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVIqkJyzuho
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkItND-OLa4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LiEYWOZManE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmwKFrgZ48s

Here is something from Twitter, too:
https://twitter.com/overshot_nair/status/1028849859577688064 (Scroll down the page for more information)

What Quixotic said.

Fsmash is pretty great and it can either kill or give an edgeguard setup a lot so it shouldn't be understated. But anyway, I was testing this myself the other day and found something odd if someone would like to confirm or refute it. When testing Uthrow Utilt on Falcon I found that if I hit him earlier in his bounce he would still fly up if I did the correct DI, but if I waited a little bit he would do the regular slideoff/tech as in the video. If true, then this might not be as big of a deal as it seems(or they may have to SDI down as well, which would make Fsmash kill even easier and might mean they can't slide off as easily). I also noticed this effect when testing Fthrow Fsmash where Falcon misses tech and slides to edge. If he gets Fsmashed higher in his bounce he just flies offstage lol.

But even supposing my testing is inaccurate, I would say that the grabs on platform are still good, Fsmash is still good, shield push as you said could have some uses as well, and even if you do Utilt and they tech it then they often can't punish if you don't do a second Utilt so it's still a playable situation(though obviously we'd rather just keep them from being able to play).

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP, just wanted to update some things.

I attended a relatively stacked local and placed decently, with the majority of my bracket being Fox mains. I put your suggestion to the test where instead of dash backing so much, I sometimes threaten with dash forward --> rising fair in place, AC FF nair at low percents, or fade back fair. I would sometimes mix this with some dtilts/grab in place and dash back when I wasn't primed to do a dash forward to beat overshoot tactics like running shine or simply Fox trying to drill my dtilt. Whenever there was a situation where I did dash back and reacted to them coming in, pivot fair or grab did wonders. I won against all of them in ladder and bracket putting your suggestion to the test, and I think I understand dash dancing a bit better. Sometimes they would try to dash dance back, immediately attack, FH/aerial in place, or shield against my fair, in which I would counteract with either a long dash back to beat their immediate approach or short dash back to confirm their shield/non-committal dash dance or full hop and net a neutral win interaction as they respect my fair/nair. It feels like the positions I studied in this mu is finally coming together. Is this how I build complexity?

As for using dash forward against like Marth or Sheik however, I found that using fairs/nairs from dash forward was kinda pointless because of how much more likely they were gonna shield, dash back, or CC, and they like staying grounded anyways. Zoning in place and mixing it with WD + some variants of dashes connected with WD seemed much more potent. I suppose that's what using WD's are for and I think I understand better why WD's are especially more potent in the more grounded mu's.

I've also been putting some edgeguarding concepts I've been working on vs Sheik to the test, where I runoff fair/neutral-b if Sheik is a certain threshold below the stage but otherwise hog ledge and at least force a 50/50 with hogging ledge or wavelanding. I think it's going by pretty well if I continue to refine this as I flesh out my sheik edgeguarding, but a couple clarifications: at lower percents where Sheik doesn't die from runoff fair/neutral-b, waiting applies the most pressure? So say I dthrow at like 0, the play is to wait a bit and perhaps WD back to observe if the Sheik cracks? Then use that as info for the next similar interaction and play from there?

I also think I finally figured out some stuff for solo practice after several trials and errors. For the first time, I trust my training process to truly get better and it seriously relieves me to say this. I honestly think I'm on my way to getting ranked in my state if things go well, but for now I'm on the grind!

 

[maclo4]

Does anyone know how many frames you have to powershield low lasers when you are dashing back vs standing. Ginger said it's something like 10 frames and that doesn't feel true to me at all. Normally id just test this but idrk know how to go about that.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, just wanted to update some things.

I attended a relatively stacked local and placed decently, with the majority of my bracket being Fox mains. I put your suggestion to the test where instead of dash backing so much, I sometimes threaten with dash forward --> rising fair in place, AC FF nair at low percents, or fade back fair. I would sometimes mix this with some dtilts/grab in place and dash back when I wasn't primed to do a dash forward to beat overshoot tactics like running shine or simply Fox trying to drill my dtilt. Whenever there was a situation where I did dash back and reacted to them coming in, pivot fair or grab did wonders. I won against all of them in ladder and bracket putting your suggestion to the test, and I think I understand dash dancing a bit better. Sometimes they would try to dash dance back, immediately attack, FH/aerial in place, or shield against my fair, in which I would counteract with either a long dash back to beat their immediate approach or short dash back to confirm their shield/non-committal dash dance or full hop and net a neutral win interaction as they respect my fair/nair. It feels like the positions I studied in this mu is finally coming together. Is this how I build complexity?

As for using dash forward against like Marth or Sheik however, I found that using fairs/nairs from dash forward was kinda pointless because of how much more likely they were gonna shield, dash back, or CC, and they like staying grounded anyways. Zoning in place and mixing it with WD + some variants of dashes connected with WD seemed much more potent. I suppose that's what using WD's are for and I think I understand better why WD's are especially more potent in the more grounded mu's.

I've also been putting some edgeguarding concepts I've been working on vs Sheik to the test, where I runoff fair/neutral-b if Sheik is a certain threshold below the stage but otherwise hog ledge and at least force a 50/50 with hogging ledge or wavelanding. I think it's going by pretty well if I continue to refine this as I flesh out my sheik edgeguarding, but a couple clarifications: at lower percents where Sheik doesn't die from runoff fair/neutral-b, waiting applies the most pressure? So say I dthrow at like 0, the play is to wait a bit and perhaps WD back to observe if the Sheik cracks? Then use that as info for the next similar interaction and play from there?

I also think I finally figured out some stuff for solo practice after several trials and errors. For the first time, I trust my training process to truly get better and it seriously relieves me to say this. I honestly think I'm on my way to getting ranked in my state if things go well, but for now I'm on the grind!

Ahh very good! It sounds like you breaking some habits and using more tools is opening you up to next steps as well, which is a good sign you building complexity is coming along well. Very cool.

That's right about Marth and Sheik. It can be okay if you want to take a bit of space with Fair to put some extra pressure on, but overall you have the right idea.

Uhh yeah at super low percents you can play it a couple different ways. You can commit to something that could give you a lot of momentum based on how you got the grab if you think it'll work. You could hold down so they won't DJ aerial you can then either do some runoff DJ Dair or just WD to the edge mixup(or wait and observe), or just move away like you said. None of them are really wrong. If Sheik DIs away/down on the Dthrow you have more time to work with, especially the closer you are to the edge. So you can get better chances of killing there with stuff like turnaround Dtilt even. Worth testing out, but yeah you have the right idea.

Niiiiiice man! It's all coming together for you and your words and experience truly reflect that. Now trust the process and keep enjoying yourself, good luck =)

Does anyone know how many frames you have to powershield low lasers when you are dashing back vs standing. Ginger said it's something like 10 frames and that doesn't feel true to me at all. Normally id just test this but idrk know how to go about that.

I don't think it's 10 frames lol, it's more like 3-4 if I remember what Kadano said correctly. It's likely in his thread in the OP or somewhere in there that's searchable I would think. For standing I have no idea though. This will also depend on laser height, but for the lowest laser height I remember reading recently it's 1 frame to hit that one.

 

[maclo4]

Fricken ginger lol, I was pretty sure that couldn't be true

 

[Kotastic]

Remember when Stab compiled like a lot of posts awhile back back at like January? Couple weeks ago I had the idea to continue where he left off, and man did it take forever, especially compiling my own long-ass posts. But it's worth it, there's so much good stuff that needs to be preserved. I will continue compiling stuff from this thread as long as I remain active.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=106FwRzz5g-RK1ZGCabxT1gPtgCbWs0dG