Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[peedy]

The main reason why I dislike RPS analogy is because it implies each option has exactly a 1/3 chance of working with equal reward, which is rarely ever true in most interactions. I just think of it as a mixup situation with some regards to risk/reward and threats, and that's about it because trying to think any more than at most 2-3 layers above your opponent is unproductive at our level imo.

https://nmwhittier.wordpress.com/2018/07/26/abusing-rock-paper-scissors/

I don't like rps as an analogy for melee either but as an analogy of for layers of intent

 

[Dr Peepee]

I dislike RPS for reasons given, but I think RPS can be useful in its own way to say sometimes you are just making a choice and can't always be too sure how it will turn out, even with informed and manipulated decision-making.

 

[Poloflipx]

,,,,,,,,,,

 

[quixotic]

After you hit a dtilt how do you cover the option where your opponent jumps to the side platform? It seems like you need to make a read here or play the resulting situation.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0h...u.be&t=5m45s&ab_channel=BeyondtheSummit-Smash

 

[Dr Peepee]

Would've been harder to hit with the dash back, but I think it requires priming yourself to cover it. Only so much Sheik can do here like run in or stay in place or go to edge or go to platform. So if you're say holding down to beat moving in, and staying and place and going to edge don't immediately matter, then it can help to prime for going to platform.

I may be giving poor advice here and it may be better to assume one can read or mostly read it, but I would at least test it out with somewhat of a reaction before abandoning the idea.

 

[quixotic]

Would've been harder to hit with the dash back, but I think it requires priming yourself to cover it. Only so much Sheik can do here like run in or stay in place or go to edge or go to platform. So if you're say holding down to beat moving in, and staying and place and going to edge don't immediately matter, then it can help to prime for going to platform.

I may be giving poor advice here and it may be better to assume one can read or mostly read it, but I would at least test it out with somewhat of a reaction before abandoning the idea.

That makes sense, if holding down here is such a strong option, what does dashing back cover that holding down does not?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Holding down was just an example. If your percent was higher, then you'd need to Dtilt their WD OOS or SH Fair their jump pretty quickly, not to mention if they WD'd back but didn't go to edge and then might want to fake you out/rush in afterward. So dash back is more of a good catchall option for safety. However dash back moves you away from them if they move away etc so ou'd need to react well out of it. Standing in place keeps you from being distracted by inputs but presents similar problems to holding down but with an easier dash back and harder Dtilt.

 

[Kotastic]

If you upthrow uptilt marth on FD before 9% and the other marth DJ away, how would you cover the landing? Do you still uptilt in place to cover no dj and then maybe shark with falling upair?

 

[Reyjavik]

Hey all, been taking a break from melee since the new spierman came out.
Lately I've had anger/annoyance with the game. It frustrates me when the game doesn't woork like I pictured in my head or the dumbest of interactions occurs with hits that barely hit me or mis-inputs occuring.
I will say The Inner game is great and I've been thinking more of myself with it. I will need to start reading again soon though

 

[Echo97]

PP,

What do I do against shine grab?

-Echo

 

[Zorcey]

There's a pretty awesome little tech where you can shield DI away the Shine and grab their grab (https://twitter.com/kadano/status/634446978160697344?lang=en). If you want an easier/more general solution buffer roll with the c-stick while they're Shining your shield.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you upthrow uptilt marth on FD before 9% and the other marth DJ away, how would you cover the landing? Do you still uptilt in place to cover no dj and then maybe shark with falling upair?

You can't always cover the landing iirc. Can depend on how they DI and jump though. But yeah if they fade away you can pressure their landing to force a Fair and then you will have frame advantage, that's the safest option. You may be able to instant Uair FF and if you can tipper that then you can still get a good punish. Late Uair is most ideal but I don't remember if you can always get that if you Utilt. So sometimes I Utilt if they're in the teen percents because I can probably cover them coming down, and sometimes I just let them jump then go for the Uair.

PP,

What do I do against shine grab?

-Echo

As Zorcey said, shield DI and buffer roll are great. I think lightshield can also push you out of his grab range so you can grab as well.

 

[peedy]

Is it possible for Marth to get out of fox's wave shine or is fox's wave shine on marth an infinite? I saw Kadano wrote a post a few years back about how it might be possible for a fox to infinite marth. Do you know if his opinion has changed I'm curious about that? I am starting to see some players get that on peach although not consistently I could see it happening soon at least with peach which is concerning. If a player did pull it off would that warrant a ban of the infinite. I cant Imagine it being consistent because of the 1 frame part

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well that would require Fox crossing up Marth, which shouldn't really be possible with good SDI away. Maybe you could get it out of a running shine, but past that point you wouldn't be able to anymore. Also for the Peach infinite I have seen some Foxes say that Peach changing up her SDI can make the infinite more likely to drop so even there it doesn't seem likely. There are potentially harder Fox followups on Marth out of shine that could be possible, but the infinite I don't think is one of them. If Kadano or others have fleshed that theory out more then I don't know about it though, so perhaps asking him or someone else who is labbing that sort of stuff would be useful.

 

[Kotastic]

Do you think in the Peach mu, it's okay to default to at least a short dash back as long as you're within WD dtilt range, or do you think it's better to throw out some threatening move? I feel like DA beats a lot of approach options I have, so trying to commit to a move feels too much like a risk.

Furthermore, does Marth have solid approach commitment options vs puff? I feel like dash in nair in place is pretty strong but I'm not so sure. I'm a bit lost on how I'm supposed to dash dance appropriately in that mu.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you mean WD Dtilt range even after short dash back, then yeah that's not so bad.

Well let's again establish that Marth doesn't necessarily have strong approach options in any matchup. The dash Nair is good(and you can even go into her if you can space on her shield but that all has its own risks of course). Nair and Dtilt mixup are pretty good, and rising Fair is good if she's in the air. Dash grab is good if she's been grounded for a moment, etc. There are some things I'd certainly like to test about this matchup to make explaining the DD easier, but for now my general advice is something like stay out of range of immediate SH Bair and this opens up a chance to swat/grab her deeper Bairs. You can opt to fade back more and go in on her landing and/or let her come in more and then hit/grab her after she swings/lands if you prefer to be more passive as well.

 

[Reyjavik]

I feel like playing puff no is simply a game of bair vs fair walling. If the puff doesn't respect the space I've been working on establishing, they will get hit by a fair and go into punish game. Otherwise its waiting for an opportunity to nair for me

 

[Kotastic]

Today, I decided to modify my solo practice regimen where every other day, I do my usual routine and another where I...shadowbox. For years now, I've heard of this term and have seen you recommend this, but I wasn't ever really sure if I even understood the term and truly apply it. I think I would try it a bit, then say cool, then just not do it again. It wasn't until somewhat recently did I feel compelled to shadowbox again. I was kind of getting a bit worn out by the lack of variety of my usual training routine where I cover specific options of each characters in regards to punish game and micro-situations like wall tech, and I wanted an exercise where I can build mindfulness where I actually think instead of grinding (relatively) mindless stuff. So, I just did my usual movement routine where I did WD and dash exercise by myself, then went ahead and picked Fox right in front of me. Then...I just thought of various scenarios and positions I've seen and studied throughout my experience of the mu. Thinking about how I can immediately beat running shine at this spacing and that spacing. How I had various "shadows" of myself beating that one option except I had to choose one that made the most sense, if that description makes any sense. I thought about how I can utilize Marth's greatest strengths as a character to somehow coax Fox to running shine, such as faking out a dash back but instead immediately grab in place. Or dtilt in place. Or nair in place. Or cross up anything. Maybe WD at a certain spacing here. So much different options, but grab leads to the most reward so that's why I choose that. If I was uncertain if something would work, then I'd utilize 20XX replays to confirm that this would supposedly work. Then I did similar exercises to other characters like vs Falcon, where nair in place would beat everything except for a well-timed dash dance grab/aerial, raptor boost, or FH bair, in which I could feint a SH then FF counterattack or even just standing there if I found that the Falcon is too close for me to safely nair in place and weave around Falcon trying to beat my nair in place.

I found that this exercise has helped me build a lot of mindfulness and made me consider the options I'm doing, and I hope I can make this a subconscious thing so then I naturally think against my opponents instead of succumbing to impulses like fsmash. Again, I plan to alternate doing this and practicing against various punish game/microsituations of each character. Would there be anything you'd like to input?

 

[Dr Peepee]

This all looks pretty good. You may want to consider next steps after a while, such as Fox choosing to deliberately do similar actions but counter grab, or see what your startup/initial position is and choose something slightly or totally different to avoid the counter. Also this is a bit of a strange thing to add, but I find myself really benefiting from imagining being wrong about my guess about the opponent. I start making a lot of ideas about where I went wrong and it makes things feel more like a real match since I can't always know what they will do and I need to stay flexible.

Overall I think your process is good, so these things are either later on or supplementary for now I would say.

 

[Reyjavik]

I've been doing the same but feel kind of at a loss for shadowboxing in determining if what I'm doing is right. I've been practicing techchasing in the sense of mindfullness and leads with the Uncle punch smash box while also practicing spacing and punish opportunities for oos option from opponent.
I'm still deeply afraid of looking bad in front of people I know outside of smash who are starting to play it now.
I skipped my local tourney from lack of energy but also nerves from looking bad.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Just stick to basics and beating common options man that can take you pretty far. Simplicity may be useful in many areas.

 

[Reyjavik]

Yea I've just been focusing on spacing and have been seeing improvement in establishing my threat range and walling off.
Its hard as I wish I had a practice partner, rather than netplay

 

[Zorcey]

1. Interesting stuff here, I never thought about internalizing mindfulness itself, but it might be key to observing+adapting without slowing yourself down significantly (something I'm struggling with as I learn these skills). Do you think this just comes with knowing positions in a matchup so well that your body responds on its own? I have difficulty with this because I dislike when I can't articulate exactly what I'm doing/how my opponent is responding/how to beat their response/etc., but my conscious mind can't keep up. While playing friendlies and trying to observe responses to my threats in a position, I slow down a lot, my play becomes very conscious and I have the mental dialogue that comes with this. So while I'm getting a sense of how my opponent likes to play a position or two, it doesn't feel satisfying - things get skewed because my opponents can react to things they shouldn't be able to because I'm too slow/they start reading when I'm trying to force a situation or spam a tool for testing/etc. and I feel like I'm playing bad and not learning much. (I trust myself to know when something "feels good" and is effective, and I'm not getting that atm.)
I'm reworking my practice routine too, and I need to figure out how to get the most out of friendlies because I still don't find them very useful. My idea here is that maybe what I should be doing is just let my body respond on its own during friendlies, and do the heavy conscious work when shadowboxing positions, because there I can take my time and internalize responses that take over when I let go in friendlies. But then what am I really getting out of friendlies, in that case? They'd just be test runs for tournament sets, and while that's useful, of course, it... doesn't seem like getting all I can out of them. I guess they help you learn what you still need to practice too?
So it's kind of a twofold question: 1) Is it reasonable to think mindfulness/observation/adaption are skills you can internalize/do subconsciously when playing, without slowing down? (It's difficult to to understand how this is possible atm, but I'm not sure how top players maintain their speed otherwise.) How is this done?; 2) How should I be thinking about friendlies to get the most out of them? Is it okay to be slow and awkward in friendlies when I find it frustrating, or should I keep that highly conscious play for solo practice, and in friendlies let go and run what I've practiced solo in context/takes notes on what positions and options I need to work on handling?

As I rework my routine, I'm trying really hard to target everything I can think of that could be holding back my ability to learn. I've cheated myself in the past and I need to overcome that tendency now. By weeding out stuff that hinders my learning, I'll make my practice and ideas for practice stronger, and feel better about them as well - I want my practice to be enjoyable and effective, so that's the ideal I'm working for.

2. One trend I notice is that I feel I play better when I'm playing a low tier, and I think that's because I have a simpler gameplan due to the character's limited tools and my limited knowledge of them, and that I'm also much more mindful (because I have to be lol). What I need to figure out is how to take a character I have deeper and more complex knowledge of (Marth), make my gameplan simpler, and my play more mindful. I have small bursts of this where I honestly think I play amazinggg: all my actions have a purpose, I apply the principle of less is more, I'm relaxed but focused, and I hit some sort of inexplicable middle ground where I'm taking active notes of what my opponent is doing/how they're responding, but I'm not doing so "consciously," so I don't get drastically slowed down like usual. These bursts of flow have never lasted longer than a single game for me, and they're rare in friendlies session (never experienced them at all in any serious setting, unfortunately).
Maybe I can flow easier if I just simplify my gameplan, but at the same time, what I'm working on is literally adding complexity to my knowledge/gameplay, so it's confusing. I'm trying to think of it in the way you told me to ("complexity is the result of many small [simple] things working together on a larger scale") and that's helping a lot as I rethink how to practice, but I wonder if it means I'm doing stuff with Marth that I don't understand, and that's difference between him and my Mario/Bowser lol. What do you think? Do you think my gameplan will naturally become simpler if I look really deep inside my Marth and make sure I always know what I'm doing?

3. More on mindfulness, which you can probably tell is my main struggle. I notice my mixups lack... intention. I often do them arbitrarily, falling into the "RPS" trap, rather than using them based on information about how my opponent plays the position/what covers the most options/what has the highest reward (or least risk)/etc. I think this is because my shadowboxing is underdeveloped, and my understanding of my own options is shallow (I couldn't tell you what my option with the most coverage or least risk is when I'm cornered versus Sheik who's just outside my SH Fair range, but I should be able to). I'm practicing too much in a vacuum, and focusing on speed over intention (ironic when I'm doing the opposite in friendlies lmao), and I probably need to simulate the situation in which I'm using my mixups more vividly rather than only having a vague idea of what I'm beating. Do you have ideas for how to do this effectively? I'm improving slowly with this, but maybe you have suggestions.

4. When zoning, could you articulate exactly what it is you're looking for? If you dash in from TR, SH Rising Fair back, there's so much to observe during the dash in, the swing itself, and the lag of the swing, that I can't process it very well. Also, because of the delay in people's reactions (~15 frames/quarter second), could they even respond to your dash in before you've already started the SH Rising Fair? Does this mean you have to use something like dash in > WD back first, and then anticipate how they respond to dash in rather than reacting and then swinging? It seems like you can't tell how someone responded to your last action until you're already doing your next action in Melee, which is extremely confusing, because your opponent's actions aren't a response to what you're doing, but what you just did. But then your own reactions to their responses are also delayed by another quarter second, and I don't even know what to think about that. Am I overcomplicating this lol?

5. With positions, I'd like some critique on how I'm structuring my studying:
- define the postion
- what are Marth's options
- what are the opponent's options
- which options beat which options (also which options are highest reward/least risk/cover the most options)
- what are the different ways the position can be entered/what positions does it lead to
- what are the variances in spacing and how do they change option interaction
Is there anything here I'm leaving out? I worked this out pretty recently, but by following it I've improved my ledge game quite a lot and I'm pleased by that. Ledge positions are some of the easier ones to practice because everything is pretty streamlined, but maybe you have some suggestions for not getting too bogged down as I learn more flexible stuff.

Oh, and on our previous convo, I think I'm making slow but steady progress. I've had several situations now where I'm positive I handled them differently as a result of our talk, and it's certainly informing my reworking of my practice routine/helping me see holes/trust myself better. Thanks PP <3.

 

[Reyjavik]

I think my own shadowboxing is becoming better but the way I handleit might be wrong:
I'm starting to just keep a cpu in either shield or neutral position and approach in different options, while learning to anticipate random DI. I have no idea if that's what true shadowboxing is but its for sure has been helping me with spacing and timing

 

[Dr Peepee]

1. Yes your body will begin to respond "on its own" but it takes a lot of going slow and gradually building speed to make it work. If you find yourself going slow in matches, then more slow practice and reduced complexity in matches is likely required. But yes, working on mindfulness as its own skill will absolutely help along the whole process. It happens through deeply internalized basics and related positional awareness for top players. I'm not sure how else to explain this without another question I guess lol. For friendlies, it's fine to be conscious 100%. That's what playing to learn is. Even if it isn't your best you CAN do, if it helps you learn more and see where your weaknesses are it's just as important. Playing to win is letting go of much/all of that conscious effort and integrating your ideas into a whole performance. There is a place for both, and they work together. I think they are worth using.

2. Yes I do think it will simplify as you learn more, but it might be worth mentioning a theme I notice between your last question and this. Cycles and balance. Sometimes you will need more complexity to weed through in order to get to a unified whole, and then spending time there ensuring you know what you know and enjoy that feeling can be great. For example, when I was learning all of the deep movement stuff with Cactus I had noooo idea what was really going on lol. But after a while(years) I began getting more of a handle on it and we didn't push the theory so much. So then I began to work out what I did and did not know and used old info in new ways. I continued adding complexity at my own pace and it has gone fine, but that period of deep uncertainty was still very useful for me. However it is likely a better general rule to say that if you feel too lost, that you should return to simplicity more quickly. Follow your feeling.

3. It sounds like you'd benefit a lot from more work on understanding situations like the one you described. That informs your intent a lot. A tool works in context with your tools yes, but it also must consider the opponents' tools to be fully understood. It's a dance.

4. Oh there is a lot here haha. I will try not to overcomplicate it more.

If you are concerned about them reacting to dash in(reasonable) then just go into run instead. That way it becomes a true mixup between run in Dtilt andthe retreating Fair. But yes conditioning with other options like WD back will help too. Also consider people can prime for your movement and react sooner, like those that roll as soon as they see you move since they couldn't react to your grab, or someone who attacks out of the corner as they see you move in.

As for those reactions to recent moves, they are also guessing about what comes next and you are doing the same. However, as you gain information about their habits and how you can control them, you guess less and predict/react more. Let's not forget that you can force people into situations you can react and kill them in, especially as Marth. A Dtilt on shield isn't able to be really challenged OOS so that's a simple example. But even with your run in retreating Fair, you know you don't need to retreating Fair if they never come in when you run up. So then you stop retreating and start Fair'ing in place or rising Fair into them, or Dtilt'ing or just WD'ing down to put renewed pressure on the opponent. But what about in between that? Maybe you don't retreating Fair but just SH back a bit if you think they might mix it up and come in and you can Fair on reaction but otherwise you don't give up so much stage or commit to lag. This is a more in between option for when you gain information. Then you can arrive at the final point I described above where you just move in with no worries. Also sometimes people play differently at different percents, different positions, or differently based on you dropping a combo or cornering them vs you being cornered, or even differently based on what happened just beforehand. So there is much to consider. If you don't know why something happened, don't assume you can't figure it out. Make a hypothesis and test it, that's what playing to learn is for. That's how I did it. Generally you find that one variable or two is often most important for people.

5. I would add differences in timing. Many characters can get their extended limbs hit by Marth, or Marth can swing and then be in lag to be hit or pressured by the opponent in many positions. The rest looks good.

And awesome man I am very glad to hear it. It does appear that everything is coming together much better for you now. Good luck! =)

I think my own shadowboxing is becoming better but the way I handleit might be wrong:
I'm starting to just keep a cpu in either shield or neutral position and approach in different options, while learning to anticipate random DI. I have no idea if that's what true shadowboxing is but its for sure has been helping me with spacing and timing

That's great at helping you make conscious neutral decisions and leading into punish. Definitely important. Having a CPU replay set to have it do various good neutral options and beating those would be a good addition to this practice.

 

[Zorcey]

Hm, does this mean that if I feel I'm too slow during friendlies I should simplify to a point I feel comfortable, and work with ideas from there? If I play too far outside my comfort zone I get overwhelmed, and too far within it I don't learn anything - so is the balance a comfortable center from which I step a little outside with new ideas as I play? But okay, just dispelling that insecurity about conscious play might help how I feel. Using a playing to win mentality to spot weaknesses and a playing to learn mentality to address them sounds like a great strategy. It requires discipline though (mostly to not err too much on the playing to win side and get very specific when playing to learn), so I'll work on that.

I often think about how wading through so much uncertainty all the time means I'm tackling stuff I don't understand, which means I'm learning, but it's discouraging to never really see the other end of it, tbh. I think learning how to enjoy those points where I finally get something down would do me good, but ironically by getting to that point I then see the next layer and it's more wading lol. Patience and trusting the process is what I need to cultivate here, I think. Cycles and balance, returning to simplicity, and following my feelings - I need to think on these some more.

The true mixup of RC Dtilt/retreating Rising Fair is a lot easier to understand, but I really want to understand how reactions play into zoning, so imma do my best here.
So there are situations where you don't have to guess at all and can do a "true" reaction, like spacing a Fair/Dtilt on shield, but there are other situations where you can't react at all and have to guess, and still others (maybe the most common type?) where you can only react if you're primed for something? In the example we're using, you can prime yourself for something like a delayed dash in aerial by using dash in SH slowfall > Fair on reaction, and maybe from this positioning you can be primed for other things as well, but if they just run you down whenever they see you move in, you can't react to that unless you change up what you're primed for/your positioning. So then, is this part of zoning about picking spots where you can punish certain options on reaction, and recognizing what you can't punish on reaction from each spot, and changing which spot you pick based on the options your opponent is using/what you condition them to do? This implies Marth shouldn't be approaching too much, but only occasionally to collect data/encourage his opponent to approach instead. He should also feint A LOT and set up a spacing for that feint where he can punish the option an opponent will likely use to beat his "approach" on reaction.
If my understanding is correct, I really need to work out what these spots are from which I can punish my opponent's options on reaction, and explicitly define what options I can react to/punish from each spot and which I can't, so I know what I'm looking for and my reactions are as primed as possible. Hmm... this is a lot to think about lol.

 

[Plumpet]

I’ve been having trouble with neutral against falcon, particularly dealing with his nair. I used to like run up shieldstop retreating nair to take space/beat his nair, but it feels like his nair beats mine a lot, maybe because it’s hitting between the nair swings or something. And when his nair wins he gets a really strong punish, whereas I often get only a pseudopunish if mine wins (unless he DIs hard in or something). So nair feels pretty bad risk/reward-wise, but I also find that fairing their nair is kinda hard too. It doesn’t feel like I can react to a mixup of dash in nair and dash in WD down, so he can bait out a fair with the nair threat then just WD down run up grab or something. Sideb is also kind of hit or miss, as it seems to trade a lot, and also only gets a pseudopunish. DD grabbing the nair works sometimes, but when he does a dash in full drift nair with no fastfall, there’s usually just not enough stage to dodge it. Some falcons also mix up that variation of nair with a dash in shffl nair with pullback, so I have trouble consistently grabbing his landing when he uses all those options. Right now, I try to use a mixture of the above options, CC, shield if I must, and trying to predictively stuff his nair as he’s jumping (which gets whiff punished a lot when he just dashes back instead). The options just feel ineffective at the end of the day though, since his reward for getting a hit is higher than mine for beating the nair, so all the times he gets in on me add up really quick. It feels like I must be missing something, do you have any suggestions?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hm, does this mean that if I feel I'm too slow during friendlies I should simplify to a point I feel comfortable, and work with ideas from there? If I play too far outside my comfort zone I get overwhelmed, and too far within it I don't learn anything - so is the balance a comfortable center from which I step a little outside with new ideas as I play? But okay, just dispelling that insecurity about conscious play might help how I feel. Using a playing to win mentality to spot weaknesses and a playing to learn mentality to address them sounds like a great strategy. It requires discipline though (mostly to not err too much on the playing to win side and get very specific when playing to learn), so I'll work on that.

I often think about how wading through so much uncertainty all the time means I'm tackling stuff I don't understand, which means I'm learning, but it's discouraging to never really see the other end of it, tbh. I think learning how to enjoy those points where I finally get something down would do me good, but ironically by getting to that point I then see the next layer and it's more wading lol. Patience and trusting the process is what I need to cultivate here, I think. Cycles and balance, returning to simplicity, and following my feelings - I need to think on these some more.

The true mixup of RC Dtilt/retreating Rising Fair is a lot easier to understand, but I really want to understand how reactions play into zoning, so imma do my best here.
So there are situations where you don't have to guess at all and can do a "true" reaction, like spacing a Fair/Dtilt on shield, but there are other situations where you can't react at all and have to guess, and still others (maybe the most common type?) where you can only react if you're primed for something? In the example we're using, you can prime yourself for something like a delayed dash in aerial by using dash in SH slowfall > Fair on reaction, and maybe from this positioning you can be primed for other things as well, but if they just run you down whenever they see you move in, you can't react to that unless you change up what you're primed for/your positioning. So then, is this part of zoning about picking spots where you can punish certain options on reaction, and recognizing what you can't punish on reaction from each spot, and changing which spot you pick based on the options your opponent is using/what you condition them to do? This implies Marth shouldn't be approaching too much, but only occasionally to collect data/encourage his opponent to approach instead. He should also feint A LOT and set up a spacing for that feint where he can punish the option an opponent will likely use to beat his "approach" on reaction.
If my understanding is correct, I really need to work out what these spots are from which I can punish my opponent's options on reaction, and explicitly define what options I can react to/punish from each spot and which I can't, so I know what I'm looking for and my reactions are as primed as possible. Hmm... this is a lot to think about lol.

Yeah that first paragraph is good.

Simplifying will likely help reduce your discomfort.

I find you can kind of prime in layers and also switch what you're looking for most at different points as is reasonable. Layered priming means you may be looking for one thing most but you may have backup things you're also concerned about. Usually the backup things are slower or less likely and you should generally be spaced well enough to react so it's not too unreasonable. So with an empty SH you may be looking for immediate rushdown so you can swing earlier or even waveland back if needed, but you may also be looking for shield or dash back or staying in place so you can switch to empty land or change drift to neutral or in a bit. As you fall, you see how they responded to your actions and begin to change what is most likely again. You may prime again for an approach after they confirm your jump, or you may primarily assume they will respect the Fair reaction and wait and you may have the other as a backup, etc. I do not have any technical or psychological framework for any of this, but in martial arts there can be throws you go into and you have done the setup so many times that they can't see what is going on but you can adjust to even the smallest shifts in body weight to make a completely different throw. Perhaps this framework/the framework of setups and tool understanding and layered reactions can help explain it.

That aside, yes you want to play in such a way you pick spots that make reactions more favorable, or at least begin to allow them to let you into those spaces. You can't always get right on top of them spaced with your sword of course, so you may have to nudge your way in or fake it to see how close they let you get to that position for example. But being farther away gives you more time to outspace, so it's about setting up good coverage and fakes in those partial positions. It sounds protracted, but you could fake once and discourage them well if you heavily punish them and then fully go in next time and now they wouldn't know what happened or what to do. So Marth can and cannot approach at the same time.

Working on the spots is still the right conclusion.

I’ve been having trouble with neutral against falcon, particularly dealing with his nair. I used to like run up shieldstop retreating nair to take space/beat his nair, but it feels like his nair beats mine a lot, maybe because it’s hitting between the nair swings or something. And when his nair wins he gets a really strong punish, whereas I often get only a pseudopunish if mine wins (unless he DIs hard in or something). So nair feels pretty bad risk/reward-wise, but I also find that fairing their nair is kinda hard too. It doesn’t feel like I can react to a mixup of dash in nair and dash in WD down, so he can bait out a fair with the nair threat then just WD down run up grab or something. Sideb is also kind of hit or miss, as it seems to trade a lot, and also only gets a pseudopunish. DD grabbing the nair works sometimes, but when he does a dash in full drift nair with no fastfall, there’s usually just not enough stage to dodge it. Some falcons also mix up that variation of nair with a dash in shffl nair with pullback, so I have trouble consistently grabbing his landing when he uses all those options. Right now, I try to use a mixture of the above options, CC, shield if I must, and trying to predictively stuff his nair as he’s jumping (which gets whiff punished a lot when he just dashes back instead). The options just feel ineffective at the end of the day though, since his reward for getting a hit is higher than mine for beating the nair, so all the times he gets in on me add up really quick. It feels like I must be missing something, do you have any suggestions?

Those pseudopunishes are very important. Side B he usually jumps away so that is very good for you. If you Nair and he gets pushed away you can often land and move in close to him which puts you in a more favorable position to get a better punish quickly. A simple solution is mixing dash back grab and side B/dash in side B vs his various Nairs as you react to them. I wouldn't pull back with Nair if I were you. It's often better to Nair in place pretty close to him or quite far away, but not in between. So moving back makes your position much worse if you're kind of close. Dtilt occasionally so he jumps, Fair him in the corner, and otherwise wait him out/Fair him if you react to his jump well or just run up grab if he's waiting or Nair in place pretty close so the first or second hit of your Nair beats his Nair startup. Let me know if you have any questions or if it helps.

 

[maclo4]

question for anyone just out of curiosity. You get a grab at 0% on fox/falco below platform but not close enough to the edge where you can throw them off stage: wyd (personally). Also the same situation but for falcon.
options are fthrow->hopefully regrab, upthrow, or dthrow techchase

 

[Zorcey]

I see. Layered priming isn't something I currently implement, I'm generally just looking for one thing and mentally committing to covering it, sacrificing my ability to react properly. Understanding what I can react to in different spots by taking apart the position, and outlining what they can threaten from a particular spacing should help with learning this, right? The analogy helps I think, if I understand correctly it's a matter of picking spots where you have the most flexibility in what you can cover/threaten, and recognizing what coverages/threats are mutually exclusive between those spots (so if I dash in and SH in place, I can't react to Fox rushing me down in response to my dash in, and have to decide whether or not I want to Rising Fair or something; but if I dash in and SH back, I can't react to something like his DD feint, and have to guess whether he'll jump into me or wait, etc.).

This makes sense, it seems like Marth has to play this constant game of making sure his opponent is encouraged to approach so he can set up these fakes and use them to stuff approaches, which is why picking spots where you can threaten a lot of different things/react and change what you're looking for is so important for him. What a cool character.

Could you give me one or two examples of important zoning spots/spacings to get me started on this? There's what we've been talking about with dash in into different kinds of SHs, but I'm having a hard time distilling the difference in their qualities. What questions should I be asking myself? What options can I threaten out of this movement+what can I react to from this spacing+what options do I need to cover in this position+what are they conditioned to do in this position, is what I have atm. What else would you suggest?

question for anyone just out of curiosity. You get a grab at 0% on fox/falco below platform but not close enough to the edge where you can throw them off stage: wyd (personally). Also the same situation but for falcon.
options are fthrow->hopefully regrab, upthrow, or dthrow techchase

If they definitely won't bounce to ledge I always Fthrow at 0% below a platform. A little higher on Spacies I start Uthrowing, but Falcon I keep Fthrowing until he stops sliding off from at least one side of Utilt.

 

[Dr Peepee]

question for anyone just out of curiosity. You get a grab at 0% on fox/falco below platform but not close enough to the edge where you can throw them off stage: wyd (personally). Also the same situation but for falcon.
options are fthrow->hopefully regrab, upthrow, or dthrow techchase

I like Fthrow as it corners them well and if they mess up or I guess right I get a gimp situation. However if they were prepared for grab or I think they were then I'll Dthrow. Sometimes I pummel and buffer Dthrow if they mash to trip up their DI. Against Falcon I always Fthrow since the throw is so much slower against Falcon. Dthrow very rarely if they're mind crushed or something lol. That's if they demonstrate they know the proper DIs etc.

I see. Layered priming isn't something I currently implement, I'm generally just looking for one thing and mentally committing to covering it, sacrificing my ability to react properly. Understanding what I can react to in different spots by taking apart the position, and outlining what they can threaten from a particular spacing should help with learning this, right? The analogy helps I think, if I understand correctly it's a matter of picking spots where you have the most flexibility in what you can cover/threaten, and recognizing what coverages/threats are mutually exclusive between those spots (so if I dash in and SH in place, I can't react to Fox rushing me down in response to my dash in, and have to decide whether or not I want to Rising Fair or something; but if I dash in and SH back, I can't react to something like his DD feint, and have to guess whether he'll jump into me or wait, etc.).

This makes sense, it seems like Marth has to play this constant game of making sure his opponent is encouraged to approach so he can set up these fakes and use them to stuff approaches, which is why picking spots where you can threaten a lot of different things/react and change what you're looking for is so important for him. What a cool character.

Could you give me one or two examples of important zoning spots/spacings to get me started on this? There's what we've been talking about with dash in into different kinds of SHs, but I'm having a hard time distilling the difference in their qualities. What questions should I be asking myself? What options can I threaten out of this movement+what can I react to from this spacing+what options do I need to cover in this position+what are they conditioned to do in this position, is what I have atm. What else would you suggest?

You can skew toward covering rushdown in your example if you SH earlier or you full analog jump backward out of dash, but otherwise yeah you have the right idea.

Marth also says that if they don't bother dealing with him then he can come in and make them deal with him. Sword man big.

I would not offer the entire range of variables as it's more harm than good at this stage. Pick a typical spacing or an important one and go through a few things you think are most important. If you have concerns while doing this you can build hypotheses and test them. Getting into any intermediate range against Sheik is useful(so outside of her Ftilt and slight walk Ftilt but inside of TR) and doesn't have a lot of vertical stuff to consider like spacies. You could do similar ones for Peach I imagine. These closer spaces are good since it can still be hard for them to hit you but you can still threaten them, so they are often where much of the matchup takes place.

 

[maclo4]

"sword man big"-PP 2018

 

[Zorcey]

Taking this example, I sat with it for a bit in the game and tried to deeply work it out, like I do when shadowboxing, and wrote my thoughts down in my notes. Could you check my work and give me advice on what I could develop further? For future reference as I look at more stuff.

" - Marth outside Sheik walk Ftilt, inside TR
Sheik can prevent Marth from setting up this spacing by yoloing him as he moves in, or setting up an aerial he’ll dash/jump into - he can counter these by feinting and dashing back/jumping early instead of actually setting it up. Once Marth has established the spacing, by SHing he can react to Sheik moving in and she can’t challenge him, and has to play the next position (Marth landing inside TR) instead, use Needles (Marth can beat grounded Needles by swiping them and pressuring Sheik on landing with an approach/feint, but has to dash back or FH Fair against FH Needles), or feint to get Marth to swing and punish his lag. Marth can mitigate the risk of losing to a feint/Needles by drifting back, but he loses the spacing and only hits Sheik going in really hard. If Marth swings early in his jump his landing becomes easier (Fair ACs, he can buffer shield/WL), and he can catch Sheik lunging at him; if he swings later in his jump he can cover more timings of Sheik moving in, but he has a harder time with feints because Sheik can easily mask whether she's trying to bait out a swing or not, and his landing is laggier and easier to punish. Overall, Marth should be looking for whether or not Sheik moves in as he SHs - if she does he should swing, if she doesn't he should empty land and play the next position."

After this I delved into the possibilities of what other positions various outcomes would lead to, like Marth landing a late Fair, getting hit out of the air by Needles, whiffing against Sheik's feint, etc. My goal is to sit with a few spots like this throughout the day for a few days, review this information and really soak it in/add new things to my notes on it as they occur to me. What do you think?

 

[iCrash]

When did you start meditation / why did you start looking into meditation?

 

[Kotastic]

Recently I've been feeling a bit burnt out doing solo practices after being rigorous about it for weeks now. It's mostly because of the prospect of moving back to my college in this coming week for fresh friendlies and some phases of my solo practices kinda being "samey." Do you find value in pushing while I can, especially when I have a big tournament like The Roast coming up?

Also, what's your primary purpose of (wave)dash back? I know two key purpose of this tool is meant for avoiding unreactable attacks and just observation, which one do you think takes greater precedence?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Taking this example, I sat with it for a bit in the game and tried to deeply work it out, like I do when shadowboxing, and wrote my thoughts down in my notes. Could you check my work and give me advice on what I could develop further? For future reference as I look at more stuff.

" - Marth outside Sheik walk Ftilt, inside TR
Sheik can prevent Marth from setting up this spacing by yoloing him as he moves in, or setting up an aerial he’ll dash/jump into - he can counter these by feinting and dashing back/jumping early instead of actually setting it up. Once Marth has established the spacing, by SHing he can react to Sheik moving in and she can’t challenge him, and has to play the next position (Marth landing inside TR) instead, use Needles (Marth can beat grounded Needles by swiping them and pressuring Sheik on landing with an approach/feint, but has to dash back or FH Fair against FH Needles), or feint to get Marth to swing and punish his lag. Marth can mitigate the risk of losing to a feint/Needles by drifting back, but he loses the spacing and only hits Sheik going in really hard. If Marth swings early in his jump his landing becomes easier (Fair ACs, he can buffer shield/WL), and he can catch Sheik lunging at him; if he swings later in his jump he can cover more timings of Sheik moving in, but he has a harder time with feints because Sheik can easily mask whether she's trying to bait out a swing or not, and his landing is laggier and easier to punish. Overall, Marth should be looking for whether or not Sheik moves in as he SHs - if she does he should swing, if she doesn't he should empty land and play the next position."

After this I delved into the possibilities of what other positions various outcomes would lead to, like Marth landing a late Fair, getting hit out of the air by Needles, whiffing against Sheik's feint, etc. My goal is to sit with a few spots like this throughout the day for a few days, review this information and really soak it in/add new things to my notes on it as they occur to me. What do you think?

Some more specifics would be my main concern here. How is one feinting and approaching? The only other suggestion I'd make is double checking some of this stuff, like how much time you do or don't have on a given swing in 20XX. Helps you concretely learn what's safe and what isn't.

Seems like a great process to me!

When did you start meditation / why did you start looking into meditation?

I was first interested in 2011/2012 as I was learning how to heal my depression and then become a better person. It has achieved that goal pretty well along with my other solutions.

Recently I've been feeling a bit burnt out doing solo practices after being rigorous about it for weeks now. It's mostly because of the prospect of moving back to my college in this coming week for fresh friendlies and some phases of my solo practices kinda being "samey." Do you find value in pushing while I can, especially when I have a big tournament like The Roast coming up?

Also, what's your primary purpose of (wave)dash back? I know two key purpose of this tool is meant for avoiding unreactable attacks and just observation, which one do you think takes greater precedence?

Perhaps you want to spice it up with some new exercises. Maybe a new mental approach is required. Maybe shorter sessions or a day off can help you get back into the mood. With an event coming up, it is very important to be training hard. However, a day or two before the event it's okay to stop practicing and let things settle and trust how hard you trained. That type of stuff is all up to you and very relative to where you are in your journey and overall training and headspace.

The WD back is used to dramatically change your overall space, whereas dash slightly shifts your space. WD shifts your dash center if you'd like to think of it that way. But it has more lag than a dash. So it should be used usually a bit preemptively to change space and to abuse any relevant facets of the lag such as opponent confirming it or you confirming them. It is also connected to your ground tools which you don't entirely have with dash, so it is also okay for setting some of those up. So between your two options, I would choose observation since I don't think you should WD to avoid unreactable attacks but should dash instead(or dash first before WD at least).

 

[Kotastic]

To clarify your last line, you mean that WD back is better for observation than dash back? Dash back is better equipped for dodging unreactable attacks but still good for observation?

 

[Reyjavik]

I just realized that Zain doesn't actually do actual pivot tippers. What he does is a 3 frame step window available at the start of dash and utilizes that for his "pivot tippers". Once I realized that, I've been getting to many more consistently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ic2HC37wdY
This is what I'm talking about. You all should start incorprating as well!

 

[Reyjavik]

Also, What are some of the sets you all are proud of? I've only had one set on stream and I wasn't happiest with how I played.
I've watched a bit of Kotastic over the weeks

 

[Kotastic]

er, what sets of mine were you watching? Also why me lol