Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Reyjavik]

I use dtilt as it provides much more defensive coverage and iasa. I can crouch cancel if opponent manages to hit and immediately retaliate with another dtilt or dash away. Plus if I get confirm, I have more freedom and less worry in canceling anything from aerial. Dtilt is just down right scary in covering space and allowing movement quickly

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Hey everyone, I recently attended a local where I had my best performance to date, taking out 2 ex-pr players, a sheik friend who I struggled with in the past, and luigi that I trade sets with. Big thanks to Kotastic(and by extension PP) as your post on how you figured things out regarding focus and mentality greatly helped me with my play and focus too after reflecting on what you said.

I'm a bit disappointed as I lost 2 sets to the winner G5 last stock where I had the chance to potentially close out the set, but I fell short of executing my punish in both scenarios. After dropping those punishes, I ended up playing very antsy and scared in neutral and lost. With regards to punish in general, I think I was executing pretty well most of the time, but occasionally I went too deep on edgeguards before the other person committed and died, and occasionally dropped some free on stage edgeguards.

Overall I'm pretty proud of my play, but I have things to work on regarding better execution in high-pressure clutch situations, mentality vs. players that I think are worse than me, and the sheik matchup.

 

[Tablesalt]

So I understand that a big thing for Marth in neutral is to make the opponent respect his range, however I'm unsure of the steps on how to do it. Is it just punishing the opponent's approach that makes them respect your range or is it just taking whatever stage control the opponent gives up? If it's possible could you provide an example?

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you Dtilt in place, the opponent can't attack at that time or they have to guess and jump over. Now assume you crouch but don't Dtilt. It's as if that Dtilt range is still sitting there, which influences the opponent now that they know that you like to do Dtilt in place. The opponent could try to outspace or try to jump over you crouching here, but you can just Fsmash or dash in and intercept or SH yourself, etc. That's a simple way to get someone to respect your range. It's about knowing the length of your move, what it beats from the opponent, what it loses to, and how to change things up once you know they understand.

 

[Tablesalt]

Thanks for the info man, I live in an area without a lot of players so it might be a while before I get to use this method, but I can't wait until I get to try it.

 

[Kotastic]

Got some more questions about various things.

https://youtu.be/gCw-dLlBSfA?t=26s - What's best followup after nair in place at 0 vs Falcon? Tried doing it again and this time he caught me.

https://youtu.be/gCw-dLlBSfA?t=2m10s - how do I properly corner falcon here if say I only did 1 jab? You say fair is extremely good here, but what if Falcon continues to shield to counteract the rising fair?

https://youtu.be/gCw-dLlBSfA?t=6m40s
https://youtu.be/gCw-dLlBSfA?t=7m43s - are there ways to make these edgeguards guaranteed?

https://youtu.be/yb2SGxdNkvY?t=34s
https://youtu.be/yb2SGxdNkvY?t=38s - Is it possible to challenge Gannon’s aerials from above straight up, or only DD grab/aerial is possible

Speaking of challenging aerials, I’m confused why nairing Gannon’s fair works here https://youtu.be/yb2SGxdNkvY?t=51s but not here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yb2SGxdNkvY&feature=youtu.be&t=38s

https://youtu.be/yb2SGxdNkvY?t=1m46s - this edgeguard I usually actually struggle with against gannon/falcon. I stay in place because I suspect they might hang by the ledge or I can cut them off, but then I always forget they can just grab me or my move whiff. Should I always just WD back if I react them up-b’ing close to ledge?

I’ve seen M2K use a decent amount of rising fair against Gannon whenever he played Marth in this mu in old vods. Are there particular reasons why it’s good, if at all?

https://youtu.be/ibEQnVlcOfw?t=2m12s - whenever I land a tipper jab against Falco, what should this convey to me? I feel like whenever I land a tipper jab, I just make guesses on how they react to it like these sequences: https://youtu.be/ibEQnVlcOfw?t=2m53s https://youtu.be/ibEQnVlcOfw?t=6m8s

https://youtu.be/ebUpAmeMkEY?t=4m11s - How can I confirm this dash back in a better manner? I’m a little bit confused on how to safely take space vs Fox, though I’m thinking perhaps WD down dtilt to at the very least beat fade back aerial.

https://youtu.be/ebUpAmeMkEY?t=8m58s - This sequence until I get hit I’m not entirely sure how to deal with, particularly the shield stop fade back drill as I tried to grab it. I suppose dtilt would be the answer?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You needed to FF that Nair after you connected so you could move in and Nair again or whatever you wanted to do. Could have been helpful to wait a moment if you don't FF to avoid lunges like that I suppose.

Well he could have grabbed that jab so I wouldn't recommend it. If it's spaced it's a bit different, but the end lag on jab+weak damage still makes it an issue sometimes. If you're spaced with Fair I don't believe you should be hit by Falcon coming OOS, and you can fall with a second one or do whatever afterward and should be okay. If you're worried about him backing up, then you may not want to rising Fair. In this scenario where he reacts kind of early to you moving in, you can react and do a later Fair if you wanted to I suppose.

Well, you might have been able to charge shield breaker and hit them I guess, but the more reliable answer sometimes is to just SH and then hit with late Fair as they come in. You can either tipper or Ken Combo out of this a lot, or they DI super far away at high percent and then you get another edgeguard. You can also just FH out with Fair if you want and their momentum means it's likely they will get Ken Comboed.

First situation, you were spaced a bit too far/swung a bit too early. Second situation, you should have Faired. Nair is terrible vs Ganon unless you're right next to him, but isn't ever needed. So yes you can hit him out of the air just fine from these angles. Had the second situation been fully spaced then no you likely would've had to dodge or shield it.

I am paused on the frame before both Nairs come out, and Ganon is clearly closer in the one where Nair hits to me. It helps that he wasn't drifting forward to Fair so he could avoid your aerial.

You can do two things here. You can Dtilt earlier, or you can SH late Fair instead. Both will likely help your issues. The Fair is probably a bit easier and it's what I usually do.

Rising Fair is sick at hitting people out of the air, and Ganon needs to jump to do most of his moves. So if you get into range to Fair then it can often be good to do it since Ganon will often have to block Fair or jump to beat it out as he can't usually dash/WD away quickly enough and doesn't want to give up lots of stage as a zoning character. I wouldn't say it's a spammable option as I believe whiffing or even hitting shield fairly spaced can get you punished OOS, but it is very good against him if he's in the air and often when he's shielding.

First thing you should notice is that in all of these instances, even the second one where he had plenty of time, he did not laser. That is VERY important. That means you now regain what lasers take away from you: your mobility. You are now free to DD on Falco some if you want, and you can even do this pretty close to him since you can react to laser startup with side B at worst if your reactions are poor, and can dash away to dodge a lot since your lean combined with Falco's speed is good for you...which of course can lead to pivot grab. Practicing these closer ranges without laser might be a good idea to see just how good this is for you. This Falco did automatic aerial inward two of the three times and this is a common response. If they yolo in sometimes it keeps you from getting set up more and also scares you away if they don't do it. However, like I said this stuff is still pretty punishable without laser help, and especially at tipper jab distance you get a pretty easy reaction since you're just standing still and see them lunge in. The other instance of Falco DD'ing is great too because now you can put Fairs on him and he can't really do much about it, or you can run up Nair in place and it will often eat up anything he wants to do, or be safe on shield. It's so good for Marth. I highly encourage you to experiment with the position.

Yeah on YS(small stage so not much movement tricks you can do) and beginning of a game it can be a bit hard to do a lot of manipulation and gradual stage taking. Moving in and retreating rising Fair or SH'ing in place/drifting back some with Nair/Fair can be good to give you a bit. WD down could be okay sometimes too, but only if you predict the Fox is fairly likely to stay grounded, which is not typically the case of Fox unless you've conditioned it or the Fox is a bit unusual. Even just dashing in place and letting it stall out would give you what you need there.

The easiest answer to this is to say the biggest reaction you could have had was to his DJ and you could have reacted during your dash back or dash in at 8:59. Then you let it stall slightly or SH a bit early and go for late Fair/Uair under him, or wait a bit and then SH FF Fair/Uair to confirm his drift from the top of his jump, which goes back pretty quickly upon seeing your dash in. At 9:00, when he's run off the platform and you stand up, that is an important moment to either run in and retreating aerial or at least fake OR zone in place to keep the positional control. Dash back is okay too but I wonder if this is a default option to you here. Once you move in and can get a shield confirm you could have Fair'd(early or mid or late) or even Nair'd instead as you moved in from quite far away, so it's no surprise he reacted in time. If you waited out the drill while standing still or DD'ing, then you could move in just before he lands and either hit him or his shield with Dtilt so that's alright too I suppose.

 

[Zorcey]

The idea of tuning into, and disrupting an opponent's rhythm, what does that mean to you and how would you explain it? Something I've been noticing lately is I'm beginning to develop a sense of how my opponent will play other positions based on how they play given ones I've seen, and more importantly (because this is something I had no sense of until recently), how they'll TIME their options, then I make these generalizations that do sometimes pan out, and it's really interesting. The images I get are fuzzy atm and I don't really understand them, so I'm kinda operating on feel once I start playing, but it feels like you're somehow reading an opponent's mind once you get into their rhythm, and you just win position after position and completely rattle them. Is there any training you would suggest to develop this apart from understanding my own rhythm (something I haven't tackled yet), or is playing others the training in itself?

I would attribute the brewing of this skill to the fact I'm becoming more comfortable with "feel" in my gameplay overall (and trusting myself more), and toning down my obsession with systematizing everything. This has actually been helpful in more ways than this, because I've found that setting a character, percent, stage, and spot, then just playing with various followups off an attack and observing and thinking has been far more helpful than making flowcharts and tables and notes ever was, which I guess makes sense since it links directly to the physical inputs, and is therefore closer to what you actually do in a match. I think a hybrid approach is probably best, because the "heart" and "mind" elements assist one another when you develop them. But it makes me wonder about players like Mango who pride themselves on doing everything by "feel" (and the reverse) and whether that's true or not. Do you think that's possible, or the best thing for a certain kind of player, to depend on just one of these two sides of their play?

Last question I have is that I'm struggling with trades versus tanky character like Peach and Samus. I feel like I'm getting outprioritized, which is really disconcerting as a Marth lol. I don't have particular clips or anything, but I assume the problem is I'm either getting read and they're timing their attacks when my sword isn't out, or I'm letting them getting too close so my disjoint becomes useless (which means I'm moving too much/too predictably)? What would you correct or add to this?
Another particular thing I notice is that when I try to space Fair within Peach TR they call that out with something like yolo DA, but I'm not really sure what to use as a mixup because if I don't space the Fair I'm super afraid of them holding down, but when I dash away I give up my pressure if they don't DA (and come to think of it I'm not really sure what to do in that case?). What am I missing in this situation?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Everyone is a combination of heart and feel, including Mango, though he tries to hide this from the public and appears to be doing a good job. People can have one preference over the other and that's fine, but it helps to work on both to be a balanced whole.

So what is going on here is not necessarily attributable to rhythm but moreso to categorization of players. You rightly intuit that certain aggressive players may be ones more likely to spotdodge or attack on wakeup so they can just do something and regain control ASAP, even if you hadn't seen them off balance before assuming that. Developing different frameworks for how to categorize people is extremely useful for sorting out how to play players you haven't played before in tournament and also just helps you analyze your own patterns. Part of why this is happening now is due to your greater relaxation and positional training and resulting awareness as well.

Rhythm itself is a habitual way of timing everything. We all have our own rhythms in life, and in Melee is no different. So tuning into that is like a dance, sometimes one leads and sometimes another does. The important thing is to know when it's going one way or another, when to challenge and when to accept a rhythm. It's not so necessary to get deeper than that right now, as the above is much more important.

One way a Marth loses sword advantage is when he drifts/lunges into opponents. Retreating maximizes the advantage and pushing in minimizes it. Staying in place is a pretty good balance, and of course drifting will combine these factors. Another way Marth can trade is he can swing late or too close to the opponent, or the angle isn't so favorable(such as trying to Fair someone landing directly on top of you). Finally, some moves are more likely to trade in various ways so Marth has to swing second in order to use his disjoint. Samus Ftilt is similar in range to Marth's Dtilt and she can often hit Marth in his jump before his Fair comes out, but if he spaces a bit outside of Ftilt range he can hit her Ftilt, with the benefit of drifting in a bit if she doesn't Ftilt and can then Fair her with mid/late Fair(early Fair often whiffs on Samus unless you're quite close). So I don't know what the problem is here but the solution often comes from one or multiple of these areas.

When are they hitting you with DA? Before your Fair, after your Fair? What kind of Fair do you do, and what do you do before the Fair?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

It's good to see that this forum is still pretty active since I last posted in here in mid-January. Lots of really useful info I have to read through.

I guess since while I'm here I can give a little update about my Melee adventures. Lately what I have been working on is learning to enjoy the game more and the process of improvement than letting it get me down. I've been noticing lately when I have depressive episodes that the only thing that I understand to do is to stop playing Melee immediately. I don't like it when I get depressed out of seemingly nowhere and feel like I can't play the game or think about the game as I normally do. To counter this feeling that will sometimes happen, I've been bringing a book with me to read, because at the very least when I'm feeling depressed I can still manage to read a good self-help book that can potentially help me get out of the funky mindset I find myself in.

I've also been paying more attention to what is causing these depressive episodes when they happen, from it being a lack of fulfillment that has nothing to do with Melee, to it being not taking better care of my health by eating food and staying hydrated. The reason why I'm paying so much attention to these depressive episodes I have is because I used to let my negative thoughts during these episodes dictate my plan of action for what I wanted to do in Melee, when in reality I just need to sleep it off or wait to feel better and then I have the same good and healthy mindset towards improvement that I have before. This is why I believe if I am experiencing a depressive episode that I will not engage in Melee as I feel I need to be in the right mindset in order to learn and have fun with the game.

I have also been noticeably less angry playing Melee. Beforehand I would get frustrated about something in the game because I would let my ego get the better of me, but I have been practicing acceptance while playing the game more through netplay and friendlies at tournaments to quiet the ego and try to enjoy the game more.

I feel like until I have a really solid grasp on how to control my emotional state when playing the game in general so that I can enjoy it virtually every time I play it, as well as having the continual drive to improve, I will not be entering any Melee singles tournaments. I started this after CEO and like I mentioned above I feel like I have made some progress but I still feel like I have a long way to go. Getting back into learning Marth and practicing with him regularly is helping me figure out things more, so I think I will probably frequent these boards a lot more in the coming months while I try to figure this stuff out.

 

[Zorcey]

Everyone is a combination of heart and feel, including Mango, though he tries to hide this from the public and appears to be doing a good job. People can have one preference over the other and that's fine, but it helps to work on both to be a balanced whole.

So what is going on here is not necessarily attributable to rhythm but moreso to categorization of players. You rightly intuit that certain aggressive players may be ones more likely to spotdodge or attack on wakeup so they can just do something and regain control ASAP, even if you hadn't seen them off balance before assuming that. Developing different frameworks for how to categorize people is extremely useful for sorting out how to play players you haven't played before in tournament and also just helps you analyze your own patterns. Part of why this is happening now is due to your greater relaxation and positional training and resulting awareness as well.

Rhythm itself is a habitual way of timing everything. We all have our own rhythms in life, and in Melee is no different. So tuning into that is like a dance, sometimes one leads and sometimes another does. The important thing is to know when it's going one way or another, when to challenge and when to accept a rhythm. It's not so necessary to get deeper than that right now, as the above is much more important.

One way a Marth loses sword advantage is when he drifts/lunges into opponents. Retreating maximizes the advantage and pushing in minimizes it. Staying in place is a pretty good balance, and of course drifting will combine these factors. Another way Marth can trade is he can swing late or too close to the opponent, or the angle isn't so favorable(such as trying to Fair someone landing directly on top of you). Finally, some moves are more likely to trade in various ways so Marth has to swing second in order to use his disjoint. Samus Ftilt is similar in range to Marth's Dtilt and she can often hit Marth in his jump before his Fair comes out, but if he spaces a bit outside of Ftilt range he can hit her Ftilt, with the benefit of drifting in a bit if she doesn't Ftilt and can then Fair her with mid/late Fair(early Fair often whiffs on Samus unless you're quite close). So I don't know what the problem is here but the solution often comes from one or multiple of these areas.

When are they hitting you with DA? Before your Fair, after your Fair? What kind of Fair do you do, and what do you do before the Fair?

Ah, I see. Developing frameworks sounds very challenging at this point when I don't have a great idea of overarching patterns between players, and only kinda intuit it as you say. In that case would you recommend I suspend my judgement on it until I'm more experienced? This sounds extremely useful, but at the same time it could do more harm than good if I make too many bad generalizations.

Leading and following is a really interesting concept, and makes the order options get played in a position easier to understand. I think not understanding that idea of knowing when to challenge and when to accept a set rhythm is a big way to get set off balance without knowing why. I want to think about this some more, but I'll take your word for it that prioritizing pattern recognition is best for now.

Hm, lunging into opponents doesn't abuse Marth's strengths at all, but at the same time he needs to do it occasionally to incentivize the opponent to approach him, so he can then do the retreating/staying in place swings that make him so strong. So if I find myself trading, then I'm lunging at the wrong times or drifting in when I don't need to, because they've already been conditioned to respect these things. If I'm swinging too late/too close/at a bad angle I probably don't understand the position well enough, and I should pick my timing/spot/option better. If it's trading consistently with a particular move, then I don't understand how my moves are interacting with that move (and again kind of a positional thing). Would you correct anything in my understanding?

They're hitting my retreating late Fair before it comes out. Before it I might be doing a dash/run in and I use it as a mixup for Dtilt, or I might do it OoS or when for some reason I'm standing next to her like after taking a hit/trade.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's just like anything else. You can try it out and adjust as needed. It's not super necessary though, and some of your solutions will naturally come as you learn positions and analyze more.

In a given position or frame advantage or whatever, sometimes you will still need to wait or learn when to go ahead, so it'll be related anyway.

Marth can poke well(aka move forward some) with Dtilt and Fair, but lunging can be different, often riskier. If you lunge/drift in and lose then they may not be respecting the option in a way if they think that's what you will do out of your forward movement.

You might be a bit too close when you do the Fair, and may also want to consider mid Fair sometimes, or retreating Nair occasionally. I'd look into some of that.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

So I have a question about anger when it comes to playing Melee, or at least anger-related thoughts.

For me, I feel like anger-related thoughts creep up on me without me noticing them develop over time. It's usually not until I have very distinct thoughts in my head like "I'm annoyed that another person is plugging in and making me wait to play against this guy" or "I'm not getting my satisfaction of playing well in this friendly and I don't want to stop until I get that satisfaction." Once I reach having these thoughts I know I need to stop soon, if not immediately. But typically by that point it's already too late and once I do stop I still feel angry, and that often leads into a depressive episode.

Do I just need to snap out of having these thoughts once I catch them and try to instead think about questions relating to the game?

My question is more about how would I try to keep going when I am noticing these anger-related thoughts that I am having? Right now all I have is once I start having them, my solution is I should just stop playing. Is it necessarily a bad thing to stop playing on the spot if it's something that happens even semi-frequently? Or would it be more beneficial to learn to play when you have those thoughts? Is it more important for me to put my mental health first, even if it means I need to stop playing the game immediately in that moment, or would it be more beneficial in the long run to try to rewire my thoughts when I get into that mental state so that it's not so destructive and that I can keep playing?

Obviously feeding more into those thoughts that aren't about the game isn't conducive to improvement. I feel like it's hard for me to know how to channel those anger-related thoughts into motivational factors to help me to play better.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Consider those two instances that upset you as opportunities. The waiting allows you to reflect on your gameplan. The dissatisfaction with play allows you to think about what is going wrong and how to make it right. If you're "playing bad" or really it's more like """""playing bad"""""""" then it's sometimes a result of something being off physically/mentally. However it's most likely that they are forcing you off your game OR you don't know your gameplan as well as you think you do. Channeling the anger to finding solutions is best, not just trying to use it to blindly push into the same thoughts that caused the anger. That only feeds it.

There's nothing wrong with putting mental health first, but I don't think this should require stopping at all. Obviously stopping is better than raging, but stopping also creates a problem I have seen develop in others over time. This problem is that people eventually associate the game and competing with anger and feel they have to step away in order to better themselves. I believe this doesn't allow someone to overcome their inner blocks and challenges, and I do not want to advise breaks often for this reason.

 

[Agrathor3]

Hey PP, I worked on simplifying my corner pressure or at least how I pressure someone shielding in the corner like you suggested and the results were really great just the concept of simplifying my game plan really helped.

So my next thing I've been working on is threatening the top platform but I'm not really sure how to go about it aside from u air and a nair aimed at the feet and changing the timings at which I throw it out or just acting like I'm going to and then fast falling to see how they react but that doesnt really seem effective so any advice on that topic would be appreciated

 

[Dr Peepee]

Very glad to hear it helped out! Simplicity does tend to solve so many problems.

I like using FH Fair/Bair but also faking with SH. The SH you can FF down if you see them off, or you can DJ and drift away from wherever they are and swipe at them and either safely hit them or encourage them to come off the platform. The goal here isn't to get a punish imo it's more to make them realize they can't get anything out of staying high up and so they come down, which your fakes can abuse.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Obviously stopping is better than raging,

What would you constitute as the point where I should stop playing because I am raging? Is it when I cannot calm my thoughts and think rationally about the problems in game? Or is it more obvious like when I start making verbal comments to myself that show I'm clearly frustrated? I'd like to at least know where the line is drawn between me knowing when I should keep going to practice the channeling of anger you speak of and when it's probably best to stop and just calm myself down.

On the upside though, I came across this post from Wobbles about his mentality at Evo and I really like how he focused on trying to play with his anger with the game instead of trying to hide it or shut it down. To quote an important part in this blog post, he says "If I noticed thoughts creeping in, the kind that can easily spiral out of control and piss myself off, I tried to focus on the feeling that generated the thoughts, instead of just arguing with the thoughts themselves." http://www.compete-complete.com/2018/08/evo-2018-recap-and-reflections.html. It looks like this important focus on the source of what is causing my anger is a good step to have, so I feel like I'm going in the right direction at least in this department.

I feel like emulating that will take some practice of getting into that mindset. I certainly don't want to associate myself with competition as being angry. I appreciate the heads up on that pitfall.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Normally you have to build up and keep letting the thoughts intensify before you rage. So you should always be able to stop it, especially if you're working on addressing them daily. If not, then they may have already built up over a long period of time. Regardless the solution is the same: work on the source of the thoughts and the pattern of thinking daily, and change the pattern to a healthy one. But if you need to know when to stop it's at a point where you cannot think straight at all and are extremely tense and are looking for any excuse to blow up at someone or something in the game.

 

[Kotastic]

vs. Gannon, I meant that M2K usually likes doing FH rising fair. Is there a reason why the FH component is good?

Why do PPU's nairs tend to work out vs Gannon? I see him destroy like every gannon and see him use nair a lot which confuses me why they even work. Otherwise, I'm not really sure if I should challenge Gannon's wavelands/aerials or try to whiff punish instead.

https://youtu.be/ZktIz0J_3Rs?t=470 - I'm confused on how I'm supposed to continue this juggle sequence against Sheik. I tried to catch him with fair, but it appears that the FF timing of bair caught my hand before my fair hitbox came out, and I'm not sure how I can cover this in a supposedly advantageous juggle position.

Some more juggle mixups I'm confused how to deal with is Faceroll mixing between fastfall aerials and falling needles. These seems to really make my juggle sequences a lot harder than I remember it to be, and nowadays he hits me so hard that it's making me question the mu urgh. I can provide specific clips later.

https://youtu.be/ZktIz0J_3Rs?t=689 - how can I secure this edgeguard better? I'm not sure if it's feasible to react to sheik's DJ/startup up-b in that distance, which I was trying to cover with that turnaround neutral-b. It becomes pretty risky if my read is wrong.

https://youtu.be/0jWJfwpnamA?t=284 - there's probably like at least 5 things I did wrong with my defense here during this whole sequence. I can think of SDI up and away shine better, don't immediately DJ to ledge, and maybe SDI dair mixup in or away? Any inputs?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Not sure why you would ever want to FH vs Ganon. Maybe I'd need to see it I guess, but overall I don't think it's a good idea. Getting hit by Uair sounds like a bad time.

Pewpewu is probably hitting Ganon when he's close to him with Nair then. Fair'ing him out of the air is more likely to work, and Dtilt'ing him when he's grounded is alright too but not that necessary. You could get close enough to Nair, but you just need to watch for aerials/DA on the way in sometimes.

Well a big part of the issue is you missed that FH Fair you did. Whiffing FH Fair is tough since you have so much more hangtime. Anyway I think the next Fair could have worked but you should have swung earlier to hit his limb coming out. Might have traded though I'm not entirely sure. But getting into good position to cleanly win with Fair and be closer to Sheik is where you will be more likely to win.

Depends on how many needles I imagine. Some needles you can Fair through but others you can't I think. Getting directly under him for better Uair and Fair angles could help mitigate that too when possible. Otherwise I'd need to see it.

I'd either SH or FH out and threaten Bair so he has to drift back or try to DJ over you. Either way makes things easier. You could also have done runoff Fair most likely once he got pretty close to the edge, a little before you did runoff SB. You can also just grab edge a bit late since Sheiks often wait a bit to get to edge, and you can refresh too since Sheiks often wait to go up, or you can drop down up-B regrab to hit her out of her DJ/up-B and refresh.

Looks like you could've done dash back PS. SDI Dair down mayyyy have gotten you to shield in time, but up and/or away would have been good. DI'ing shine offstage is better for less overall damage but obviously you could just die to the edgeguard. Wait until Dair hits before you SDI so you don't lose your jump. Should've held shield on wakeup I think you'd have been safe, and Falco grabbing is not nearly as bad as him hitting you. Could've airdodged through the Bair, but you also could've just dropped down.

 

[Agrathor3]

So I've worked on my corner, pressure my platform pressure (the ideas you gave me were really useful btw) and controlling center stage and I think that's all mostly good. Of course I still need to work on my execution but the concepts are there so my next thing I want to improve is my dash dance. I'm not really sure where to start or what to ask exactly. I mainly use it to try and bait an approach, gradually take stage if they shy away from me inching towards them or mixup approach timings but aside from that I'm not really sure what to use my dash dance for.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dashing is used to move yourself quickly and also to threaten an approach. So you can move slightly forward or backward, and each movement has options tied to it. You can run out of it, jump out of it, pivot, etc. If you move in and attack sometimes, then you are tying running in and jumping or Dtilt'ing or whatever to dash in. So then when you dash in the opponent is more likely to associate it with that approach, and you can then manipulate them by just taking stage, or by Fair'ing if they jump or whatever. Of course if you largely dash back after dashing in then this is less likely to work but this is the basic idea. To do this better, you usually need to not do a bunch of dashes, but rather just 1-2 at a time. Keeping it simple. That doesn't mean you approach after a couple dashes, but it does mean you make a decision. Maybe that decision is zoning in place or slightly forward or backward, maybe it's doing a fake like run in retreating Fair, or maybe you transition to a different dash pattern from there if you do just want to wait. That's all fine. The point is to have some intention with dashes and not to just do them to do them.

 

[Agrathor3]

Okay that makes a lot of sense I'll have to work on that quite a lot from the sound of things! Do you have any basic dash patterns you would reccomend learning that I could use to practice or how should I go about developing my own?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes it's something you can never perfect, endlessly deep. That's what makes it fun.

I like dash in WD back for observation and to mix that with dash in Fair in place for taking stage or dash into RC Dtilt or rising Fair for more aggressive plays, and then mixing all of that with dash in and letting the dash stall.

Dash back pivot Fair or dash back move in as listed above, or dash back pivot WD away are more defensive variants with one offensive way to think of dash back included.

The underlying thinking is that you want to tie your movement into your tools and then make the opponent have the association to that tool so you change. If you sometimes attack but sometimes defend after a given dash, that's good. Same with how you attack or defend.

 

[quixotic]

Hey PP, my friend wanted me to ask for your opinions on shroomed's punish and neutral in the marth falcon matchup. He seems to be doing well in that matchup, reminds me a little of when cactuar beat s2j and wizy at htc.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I couldn't find anything recent, but watched him vs NMW from 6 months ago.

Didn't look remarkable in terms of punish, he drops most tech chases after one rep if that and isn't getting auto combos a lot. His best stuff is what's good for him in every matchup and that is when he drops he's good at picking it back up. His neutral also looked pretty risky with deep swinging in but he was okay enough about it, and he also was good at doing extra dashes or dash WDs to move away if need be. Not much else to say.

 

[Reyjavik]

So I couldn't find anything recent, but watched him vs NMW from 6 months ago.

Didn't look remarkable in terms of punish, he drops most tech chases after one rep if that and isn't getting auto combos a lot. His best stuff is what's good for him in every matchup and that is when he drops he's good at picking it back up. His neutral also looked pretty risky with deep swinging in but he was okay enough about it, and he also was good at doing extra dashes or dash WDs to move away if need be. Not much else to say.

Isn't that a meme as well for him dropping tech chasing lol
*edit: LOL even Armada made a joke/comment about Shroomed/Dajuan's tech chasing

 

[Kotastic]

https://clips.twitch.tv/EnergeticWiseTrayCoolStoryBro - how reliable do you think this dash back dash in nair would be vs puff's poking bair, especially if it's AC FF'd.

When cornering someone that has no room to backdash but they don't shield, is jumping (fair) really the best option to use if they can see my jump on reaction and beat it before my fair comes out? Say like Sheik ftilting or Peach DA on reaction. What coaxes someone to shield in the corner?

Also just for awhile, I think I'll post significantly less than I have before. I have new ideas on how to improve in the game, and it involves actually thinking for myself in this complex 2-player game. This means referring to you less often than I have before. I believe this will help me out significantly in the long-term, but if I feel like I really need help, I will not hesitate to ask. I'll lurk around a lot!

 

[Dr Peepee]

I like that Nair a lot but it could lose to DJ Bair iirc. Usually they will shield it though which is fine with me.

Fair isn't necessarily best every time, and how you use it would also change. So vs Sheik, you may still want to sit outside of Ftilt range and drift in as you SH so you can hit late Fair, or just control the space around it and then mix in Dtilt landing. For Peach, you may want to SH from farther away, or not SH at all because DA is so common and a decently easy reaction here and instead work your Dtilt. People want to shield when they don't think their attack will work, aren't sure of what you will do, can't move back/up to dodge it, or maybe are just off guard.

Yeah I noticed there have been less postings here lately. It has reminded me that if I am doing a good job I will get less questions, as you all will be empowered to find answers yourselves and have a good framework to do so. I will be here as a resource whenever people need it =)

 

[Reyjavik]

Yea, I feel I've been playing better, but also have been playing less. Trying to focus on not grinding the game and being unhappy, but practicing when I want to play.
I didn't mention this but last meetup I apparently improved in a month to a level that I was able to take games against a veteran in personal scene when only a month ago He was 4 stocking me. He even told me before we played that he felt he was playing excellent today. Only downside is I probably didn't play his absolute best tier character but was able to get his other main and his secondary.
Still have a lot to improve on but I want to keep the game fun

 

[Plumpet]

When should I use dash WD dtilt vs dash RC dtilt? They both represent a dtilt threat out of dash, but RC just seems faster if you're doing a lengthy poke. I guess WD can give different visual cues or let you do shorter pokes, but I rarely try to stay within a short WD length of my opponent

 

[Dr Peepee]

I believe WD Dtilt is a frame or two faster, but of course if you dash first then that difference can be the same or go the other way. With WD Dtilt you also can adjust your range more. The downside of WD is once you commit to the WD you're stuck in it, whereas if you dash/run you can stop it quickly and don't retain forward momentum if you need to back up. I notice that WD Dtilt gets interrupted less than RC Dtilt as well in my own experience, so RC is more of a mixup and something to fake more often probably.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

This past weekend was TBH8 and I was planning on just enjoying the arcade games and friendlies as I worked check in desk. Turns out Juggleguy entered me as I was one of the main staff there and I thought why not play?

After 2 rounds, including a close call with a fellow Michigan falco who I've gone close with in the past, I got to play Lucky. And I nearly won. As the classic underdog goes, I got in my own head thinking I was gonna beat him, and then my decisions started becoming really slow as soon as something I didn't expect happened. I choked a 4-2 lead at the start of game 3, and also had the chance to take the last stock with a few openings that I immediately dropped. Usually when my heart is pounding and I'm nervous as hell, taking some time on the angel platform helps, taking time inbetween matches, etc. But I wasn't able to regather myself in the middle of g3 when I had the chance to take it.

After the set, it was bittersweet knowing that I have what it takes to play with top players when I'm playing at my best, but also to know I choked my chance. I was able to make it out in losers playing a fox who was extremely nervous and missing his tech.

Something I find kind of surreal is seeing my name on reddit or twitter. I'm not quite sure how to handle this brief moment of fame, as I think it negatively affected my mentality for day 2. I was thinking too hard on how to prove that I'm not just some marth who only knows the fox matchup and happened to catch lucky on his off day. I played a decent sheik to start r2 pools, and lost after punishing poorly, and losing my patience to deal with sheik's spotdodge and roll, 2 things I find infuriating when I'm not playing well.

This was also the first time I've ever made it to day 2, although I think it's the first national I've really attended. There's a lot of challenges regarding diet, sleep, etc. that I need to figure out to be able to play well on multiple days. Obviously everyone has a different routine and I'm going to have to experiment to find what works best for me.

I still have a lot of thoughts on the tourney that I haven't quite been able to verbalize, and I can't wait till the set is uploaded to ask about things I don't understand. I've already rewatched it on twitch, but the interface kind of sucks, so I'm gonna wait for youtube to take a better look.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ah yes I did see your name when looking through Reddit myself. I was still happy to know you are capable of such a win even if you didn't get it. Also about the random comments about you: people will always be in disbelief whenever you are making upsets or coming up. As soon as you begin doing things more consistently and rising, then the opinions change to praise more often. Wizzy was hated on for playing more defensively and regrabbing during tech chasing for example, but now he is respected as someone who pushes Falcon further. In other words, they don't really think about you specifically and don't mean to insult you but are just surprised since they haven't heard of you. That type of stuff is really really hard to deal with in the modern era though, so it's good you have exposure with it already to begin working on counters/ways to accept it.

The rest seems fine, let me know when you have something from your videos if you want.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

https://youtu.be/8pSxPSAo-s4?t=330 So here I try to get a Ken Combo on this Samus that I was playing and it looked like either I was too slow on the dair itself or I needed to tipper the fair just right before the dair.

However, would it be better to try to do an up-b instead of a dair? I think I had enough time but idk if Samus would be able to up-b to avoid it or not.

Also, as for comboing floaties in general, if they are at a relatively mid-high percent, is it better to go for the dair to send them low and force them to use a lot of resources to recover? Or is it better to upair them to get the damage and to put them above you so that you can shark them?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You hit the Fair way too low for Ken Combo. The Samus looked slow to up-B so you mayy have been able to up-B but I would have just Fair'd, or done a bit of a gamble on a Nair or shield breaker I guess.

It's better to Dair usually but sometimes you want to Fair them out. Dair is great but if they can quickly grab edge then it's not always so good and they'd actually burn more resources if you Fair them away. Uair can be similar, but Fair is better since Fair pushes them away and they'd have to use more resources to get over your head/force you to retreat some.

 

[Reyjavik]

so this may be a more general question but I havne't been able to find an answer online:
How long do you have to input di? It feels that while I input the correct di for some instances such as marth forward throw, the game doesn't recognize my control stick position

 

[Dr Peepee]

Generally my feeling/knowledge is that it's something like right before your character begins moving you have a chance to input DI. So for throws it would be until slightly before you launch I guess, but I imagine if you wanted to find exact frames you could probably use the 20XX replay feature and find out the specifics.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Hey PP, I have a question regarding getting punished hard. I've talked to other players about how a strong punish can influence neutral because it makes the other player afraid of that option. I definitely feel like that happened to me here. Kind of related is how I dropped many punishes due to slide off and thus over compensated for the option and dropped a grab on the last stock that I could have potentially converted.
On that note, I also believe getting a huge reward off of something makes me want to do it more, even if it is very risky. I lost 3 stocks to DJ aerials coming from offstage because it had the chance to give me a reversal and maybe the stock.
I think doing most of these is a byproduct of nerves, as I felt my reactions were kind of slow to everything and I was defaulting for kind of cheesy options randomly. Do you find in your experience more exposure to high pressure scenarios and meditation/practicing focus will eventually cause this kind of play to be phased out? Obviously even the best of players get nerves and play poorly at times, but generally this is not the case.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZfcrtIp99w#t=184m29s
I was too passive in trying to make the most of my invincibility here. Obviously I miss an easy chance to grab him when he's shielding right next to me. I do dash forward wd back twice because I think I was too fixated on him running through me my previous stock and killing me off the grab he got.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tZfcrtIp99w#t=184m44s
Here I catch lucky with a nair hitting his drill. Honestly I have no idea why this nair worked, but I vaguely think it was cause his invincibility ran out and he was still thinking he needed to gain an advantage with invincibility, so he still wanted to run me down?
Anyways, since I drifted back I couldn't get a grab off of it, but I wd forward while he empty full hops and I got a crossup grab. I also have no idea why this worked as if he came down with an aerial I would've gotten hit.
Also, right after I get that grab, I wd back expecting DI to the platform and slideoff, while he just doesn't DI, and tech in place shines me. That kind of deflated me as I was mentally kicking myself for dropping the punish. All the things I told myself before the set about wanting to learn and trusting myself kind of went out the window at this point.

I haven't had nerves this bad since I was the anchor of a crew battle going against another good, well-established player, but I anticipate them again with Michigan's fall Arcadian coming around the corner sometime, where I will likely be a top seed. I have a lot of thinking I need to do regarding my expectations for the Arcadian, and also the pressure of being expected to do well and represent my sub-region, which I really haven't had in the past.

Also quick question regarding stage choice. I won g1 on battlefield and lost g2 on stadium, and giving it some thought, decided to return to stadium for g3. My rationale was that lucky is known for being a more aggressive fox and I would enjoy the breathing room, but after rewatching, since I do like to play a more zoning style, maybe fountain would be better? I don't really like yoshi's because of the volatility in just dying at 90, but it's possible either of those 2 smaller stages would've benefited me.

 

[Plumpet]

I feel like I’ve gotten a bit better at the falcon matchup lately, but I think my punish is carrying me really hard in the matchup, and my neutral against him for my skill level is not great. I can usually kill off a couple openings, but the falcon usually wins neutral a lot more than me, which I hear should not be happening. Mostly my issue is with beating his nair when he’s on the offensive. Right now I mix up DD grabbing and sidebing his nairs. But my DD gets caught a lot by overshoots, and falcons bait and punish my sideb with running up WD in place, and I feel like reacting to a nair/WD in place mixup probably isn’t possible, since they both use the same jump squat animation thing. I usually try to run up grab when I think they’ll WD in place, but since falcons seem to spam nair in place a lot, I often just get comboed for it. So do you think marth be winning neutral a lot more often than falcon, and if so, what tools should I use to do so, specifically against the nairs I mentioned.

Also, if you watched zain va gahtzu at big house, what do you think zain should be doing better in neutral and punish? Some of the overshot nairs that gahtzu got him with are the same kind that I struggle with.

Finally, any marths you recommend to watch for their neutral in the matchup? Thx!