Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[AirFair]

er, what sets of mine were you watching? Also why me lol

I think it's interesting watching the other marth players from the forum, since I can see how we each see parts of the game and interpret the stuff discussed in the thread differently. We're all growing =p

 

[Dr Peepee]

To clarify your last line, you mean that WD back is better for observation than dash back? Dash back is better equipped for dodging unreactable attacks but still good for observation?

No, I meant WD back is better for observation than beating unreactable options. Between dash back and WD back, it depends. WD back could be easier in a vacuum if we say that the lag frees up your mind to observe whereas dash doesn't give the same leeway, but I think with training that difference lessens or disappears.

I just realized that Zain doesn't actually do actual pivot tippers. What he does is a 3 frame step window available at the start of dash and utilizes that for his "pivot tippers". Once I realized that, I've been getting to many more consistently.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Ic2HC37wdY
This is what I'm talking about. You all should start incorprating as well!

Dang I didn't know someone made a video about this lol. I'm not sure he always does that though.

Also no need to double post, just edit your post next time. I am most proud of my set vs Armada at Smashers Reunion set 1 GFs, but only the games I win unfortunately. I also have some pride in my Apex 2015 GFs for how it felt and what I was able to show off, but I know I could do more. So there is a big opportunity for me to love my sets more!

 

[peedy]

This has to be my favorite ppmd gif sadly not from Apex though. The man's a monster

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JUdhv4-W_vU

 

[Reyjavik]

er, what sets of mine were you watching? Also why me lol

You had posted it for asking PP questions. It was against Faceroll

 

[quixotic]

Hey pp I’ve been trying to play while looking at my opponent but I’m losing track of my horizontal spacing. Any advice? Also when you lose a stock do you remember everything that happened the last stock?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't really track my eyes so much when I play people, but I often shift between looking at the opponent and looking at the space between us so I can see myself enough to position I believe. See if that helps you it has helped others.

It kind of depends. The main thing I'm looking for is major errors so stuff that loses me neutral or gets me to take a lot of damage like bad DI or bad timing OOS. Neutral errors are most difficult to remember because you do a lot of DI etc after getting hit which puts neutral farther away in terms of decisions you have to recall, and just time too I suppose. So focusing on DI etc can still be good but eventually you want to include everything major at minimum.

 

[peedy]

Not that I am pp but I found doing what ppmd said personally helpful myself. Switch between focusing on the space and the character but mostly focus on the space and over time it'll go down and I suspect you'll just be able to focus on the character (I haven't reached this point yet so idk). If you're really close always look at the character as it should encompass the space in-between and allows you to focus on what the players doing and to react faster. Another thing you could do is use your peripherals do a rapid switch of using your focus and peripherals (I have found this the most helpful at times when maybe I play mindlessly and forget where I am). Doubles is a great way to practice this

 

[Reyjavik]

I've actually been working on that ironically. Just judging what dashes, wavedashes and moves reach an opponent in a particular spot.
How do people feel about using d-smash as an edgeguard? I've been practicing myself with it and found its good for more same edgeguards against spacie flames, esp on battlefield. Another reason I'm starting to incorporate is for di mixup, as if they di for fmash or dilt, they will be in trouble

 

[Kotastic]

I've finally figured stuff out in terms of focus. Throughout my months playing this game, total focus has been really hard for me to achieve when there's myriads of distractions. Your advice on how to keep focus is to be so immersed that the little distractions won't matter has been kept in the back of my mind. My new mentality in terms of keeping focus is to remind myself intrinsic motivations why I play the game to begin with. For me it's simple: I love the game and find growth and improvement very fulfilling. Just repeating those reasons right before my matches at The Roast...just put a big smile in my face and I just played with little worry other than what is happening in front of my screen. At no point did external, irrelevant thoughts like thinking about rank or consequences after potential outcomes crossed my mind. I would sometimes hear cheering, but I barely acknowledged it and instead focused in the moment. This kind of focus helped me clutch out good wins for me at The Roast and play with a clear conscious despite being a bit rusty from taking a brief break. The reasons why I lost were because I simply forgot some rules that bit me in the end, which can easily be resolved as I get back to the grind. I played how I wanted without the little things messing me up in the end, which I'm very glad I can focus seemingly at will now.

I effectively played Melee for like 10 hours straight, lookin forward to improve and practice some more back at my college.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've actually been working on that ironically. Just judging what dashes, wavedashes and moves reach an opponent in a particular spot.
How do people feel about using d-smash as an edgeguard? I've been practicing myself with it and found its good for more same edgeguards against spacie flames, esp on battlefield. Another reason I'm starting to incorporate is for di mixup, as if they di for fmash or dilt, they will be in trouble

I feel like them teching Dsmash would be pretty bad for you lol. How can you confirm off of Dsmash anyway, isn't the lag pretty bad?

I've finally figured stuff out in terms of focus. Throughout my months playing this game, total focus has been really hard for me to achieve when there's myriads of distractions. Your advice on how to keep focus is to be so immersed that the little distractions won't matter has been kept in the back of my mind. My new mentality in terms of keeping focus is to remind myself intrinsic motivations why I play the game to begin with. For me it's simple: I love the game and find growth and improvement very fulfilling. Just repeating those reasons right before my matches at The Roast...just put a big smile in my face and I just played with little worry other than what is happening in front of my screen. At no point did external, irrelevant thoughts like thinking about rank or consequences after potential outcomes crossed my mind. I would sometimes hear cheering, but I barely acknowledged it and instead focused in the moment. This kind of focus helped me clutch out good wins for me at The Roast and play with a clear conscious despite being a bit rusty from taking a brief break. The reasons why I lost were because I simply forgot some rules that bit me in the end, which can easily be resolved as I get back to the grind. I played how I wanted without the little things messing me up in the end, which I'm very glad I can focus seemingly at will now.

I effectively played Melee for like 10 hours straight, lookin forward to improve and practice some more back at my college.

Good stuff man, that's the progress I like to see. Good luck with your training =)

 

[Zorcey]

Why do you recommend dash in SH Rising Fair back instead of dash in SH Nair in place versus Fox from TR? And why the reverse versus Falcon? SH Rising Fair back puts more distance between Marth and his opponent, is somewhat faster on the swing, but doesn't last as long as Nair (which might be a good thing versus Fox?). From this information I'd guess that it's because Fox is a faster character, who can threaten Marth's aerial lag more than Falcon can, so Marth wants to use faster swings at retreat more out of those swings so Fox can't patrol him as hard; and also that Falcon, because of his lunging style of approach, is better countered by a hitbox that stays out a long time, even if it's a little slower to come out because you can see him coming easier. How do you feel about my reasoning? What would you add/correct?

If I'm correct about these general ideas, then where does Nair fit in at TR versus Fox, and Fair versus Falcon? I don't quite understand when Nair would do a better job than Fair unless I was standing in place (rather than dashing) and not sure about Fox's approach timing? For SH Rising Fair back versus Falcon at TR, I'm not sure if there's a situation it's better than Nair, either in place or out of dash in? And for other variations of Fair I don't have a clue - it's great when Falcon is cornered/offstage but I'm not sure how to use it in more "true neutral" positions.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falcon can hit you out of the air if you retreating Fair, while it's less likely Fox can do it. Also generally any mid range position vs Falcon, especially one where you give him frame advantage, lets him walk all over you. Nair getting close to him beats his typical responses to you going in(either shield or aerial, he doesn't have any ground options besides grab but that would of course lose too), and if he dashes back he usually won't be able to punish. Fox having better ground moves and also being shorter means Nair is harder to hit him with and also means Fox can hit you faster for going for Nair. Retreating Nair is okay vs Fox, as is one that's spaced a bit more. Generally, Marth can swing at TR if he's not moving in much and also when he's closer to them but the in between it's often safer as a general rule to either not swing or retreat(not swing vs Falcon and retreat vs Fox specifically). The reason he can swing more when he's farther away is because they can't get over or under him as easily there and he can use these swings to set up his zones around him and perhaps also use it to establish space slightly farther forward to begin giving his dash in some depth and put pressure on the opponent.

I probably could've explained some of this better so let me know how much makes sense.

 

[Zorcey]

So in the example where you Nair fairly close to Falcon, retreating Fair couldn't be substituted in because it wouldn't beat his options/be relatively safe like versus Fox, and Fairing in couldn't be substituted because Falcon could dash back and blow up your lag? But Nair beats many of his options and forces him to use stuff that RC Dtilt beats, and it's fairly safe because of the AC?

Since Fair covers below me better, why would I opt for retreating Nair versus Fox? Because it stays out longer and can hit more approach timings? I'll use it when I think a Fox is going to delay his approach with a dash back first or something, but that's a Nair in place and I'm not sure if it's the kind of application you're getting at.

These are interesting rules. I think the idea behind not swinging at mid range versus Falcon is that he's far enough away that he may still have a good amount of time to react to an aerial, but close enough that he will absolutely have time to beat down your lag/put you in a bad terrible position if you whiff it. But for not retreating versus Fox at mid range, is this because he's faster than Marth, and can run down his retreat with a running Shine/overshot Nair/DD feint before Marth can do something like pivot Fair?

How do Marth's swings when he's farther away or in place give depth to his dash in? Is it because if he swings in front of him, the opponent has to respect he could hit them if they were in that space, and so it discourages them from yoloing his dash in (because from where he starts his dash, he could also aerial)?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can Fair in vs Falcon provided he doesn't hold down and you space on shield and he doesn't dash back, but retreating Fair yeah what you said. And Nair comes out faster plus that stuff you said yeah.

Using retreating Nair hits more timings but also beats holding down and can be a bit better vs shield iirc. As a bit of an aside I tried using Nair closer to Fox for quite a while but found him blowing me up for it a lot due to what I said, but you're welcome to experiment with it some as it can still be useful sometimes.

Even if Falcon can't always react and hit/grab you at mid range, he can always get on top of you which is very bad. That means giving up stage or swinging again quickly with like Utilt usually. Part of why you can play more midrange vs Fox is his moves are just smaller. Falcon is also fast but has very big moves as well and in particular can Nair/Uair you out of the air, while Fox doesn't have a similar play since his Nair is smaller. And of course you can still retreat at mid range against Fox it's totally fine, but you don't always have to.

Yes it means if they see dash in then he could beat them out with his quick disjoint. So they either need to go before that(not so good) or wait for him to whiff(often better) when they see dash in. This helps Marth dash for free more often.

 

[Reyjavik]

dang I didn't think about teching. I have been getting edgeguards against people recently but haven't played anyone decent in the game for it to test.
I'm happy even if it doesn't work, labbing stuff is good as while I disliked playing by self in past, I'm glad to be doing it now

 

[Kotastic]

I've been jumping a lot in place where it looks like Sheik can BG/DA me but barely misses and then easily punish with dair grab or something. Other run-up CC tactics can be beaten with jump nair in place. It also cleanly beats SH fair. Loses to needle and slight wait whiff punish, which the latter can be beaten by empty landing and needles I can discourage by dtilt/fsmash every once in awhile. I've found my jump in place strategy, I don't really dash dance much in the Sheik mu. What are your thoughts on this?

Also found a cool discovery that's applicable in the Yoshi mu. Not sure if this is documented or used well, but I discovered that when the opponent already used their DJ and gets grabbed, the grab release does not refresh their DJ. This means that Marth can stand by the edge of the stage, let Yoshi DJ low, and grab release him and watch Yoshi fall to his death. This has helped me edgeguard Yoshi so much more easily if they choose to recover low. This forces Yoshi to recover high, in which Marth can play it safe with fade back tipper fairs to rack up damage and potentially hit Yoshi out of his DJC.

 

[heyitshoward]

(snip)
Also found a cool discovery that's applicable in the Yoshi mu. Not sure if this is documented or used well, but I discovered that when the opponent already used their DJ and gets grabbed, the grab release does not refresh their DJ. This means that Marth can stand by the edge of the stage, let Yoshi DJ low, and grab release him and watch Yoshi fall to his death. This has helped me edgeguard Yoshi so much more easily if they choose to recover low. This forces Yoshi to recover high, in which Marth can play it safe with fade back tipper fairs to rack up damage and potentially hit Yoshi out of his DJC.

Your opponent may hold up in order to air release which lets them double jump iirc.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've been jumping a lot in place where it looks like Sheik can BG/DA me but barely misses and then easily punish with dair grab or something. Other run-up CC tactics can be beaten with jump nair in place. It also cleanly beats SH fair. Loses to needle and slight wait whiff punish, which the latter can be beaten by empty landing and needles I can discourage by dtilt/fsmash every once in awhile. I've found my jump in place strategy, I don't really dash dance much in the Sheik mu. What are your thoughts on this?

Also found a cool discovery that's applicable in the Yoshi mu. Not sure if this is documented or used well, but I discovered that when the opponent already used their DJ and gets grabbed, the grab release does not refresh their DJ. This means that Marth can stand by the edge of the stage, let Yoshi DJ low, and grab release him and watch Yoshi fall to his death. This has helped me edgeguard Yoshi so much more easily if they choose to recover low. This forces Yoshi to recover high, in which Marth can play it safe with fade back tipper fairs to rack up damage and potentially hit Yoshi out of his DJC.

Seems good to me. That's a fine way to play the matchup.

I think as howard said they can get their DJ back by mashing a certain way which is why I stopped using it when I played with it in the past. Could be mistaken though.

 

[Kotastic]

Messed with grab releasing Yoshi by the ledge, yeah if Yoshi holds up then he gets his DJ back. However, some neat stuff I found is that it can be a DI trap for f-throw pivot fsmash to break DJ armor at mid-percents since Yoshi can't DI down and away. More tools to kill Yoshi slightly earlier.

If anything, this is at least some cheese that can work a couple times if they don't know about it like how Yoshi cheeses Marth lol.

 

[Reyjavik]

It feels both bad and good to be destroyed once again. While I haven't had as many chances for netplay, lately I've been beating people. I finally got thrashed again today which helped me see I still have stuff to work on.
How do you deal with extremely aggressive lasers and Falco? I feel this might help bring me into midtier as a melee player if I can solve this.
Usually my gameplan is to use platforms and movement to beat falcos, but this guy was amazing with laser neutral and I felt I couldn't get in at all.
One guy I know from college is known as the laser king because its hated how much he lasers. I really want to beat him and its just sucky I can't right now deal with mid/high level players.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dash back/crouch powershield make powershielding very easy so I'd practice that. You can also dash attack under lasers or SH Nair over them. If you need to stop them from coming in, you can take laser jab or take laser dash back to counterhit them.

 

[Kopaka]

I was beginning to get kind of bored and stale with Marth so I decided to practice and play Fox for awhile. Coming back to Marth after that, he felt like a completely different character. I never realized just how big of a range his sword covers after playing another character for a bit. You guys should practice other characters lol, it makes me respect and see Marth in a totally new light, even though I had been playing him for 99% of the time I've played Melee in the last year, which is wild to me.

 

[Reyjavik]

Yea I actually have been working on that. Just acting out of laser hitstun. I just don't know how to approach though if just constant lasers are coming.
Maybe its just patience but its so boring to stay and wait, maybe that's a skill I need as well.
https://youtu.be/5xRhHXtL_hI?t=13s
This is what I'm talking about

I was beginning to get kind of bored and stale with Marth so I decided to practice and play Fox for awhile. Coming back to Marth after that, he felt like a completely different character. I never realized just how big of a range his sword covers after playing another character for a bit. You guys should practice other characters lol, it makes me respect and see Marth in a totally new light, even though I had been playing him for 99% of the time I've played Melee in the last year, which is wild to me.

Yea, that's why I've been playing Falco, for both understanding Marth in better way and for relaxation

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dash attack and SH Nair over lasers help you get in. Sometimes you can dash side B the laser startup if you're close enough. But yeah mostly you have to play Falco's game more so keeping that in mind does help.

 

[Reyjavik]

those are good ideas, it just sucks as even though FD is supposed to be Marth's stage I have most trouble against aggro falcos there.
Patience is for sure something I've been working on but fogotten a bit.
On unrelated note, how to you threaten Sheiks and falcos since Falcos have lasers while Sheiks are bad to fair against?
I realized after taking your advice and starting to threaten with fairs that its a bit harder to do against sheik.
And with Aggro Falcos, you can't threaten moves since they are lasering so much

 

[quixotic]

If peach buffer rolls after the dtilt here, how would you pressure her out of your short hop? It seems like you can't aerial w/out getting cc'd and dair won't hit.

https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=6m58s

 

[Dr Peepee]

those are good ideas, it just sucks as even though FD is supposed to be Marth's stage I have most trouble against aggro falcos there.
Patience is for sure something I've been working on but fogotten a bit.
On unrelated note, how to you threaten Sheiks and falcos since Falcos have lasers while Sheiks are bad to fair against?
I realized after taking your advice and starting to threaten with fairs that its a bit harder to do against sheik.
And with Aggro Falcos, you can't threaten moves since they are lasering so much

Yeah you can't just run up and Fair Sheik. Hitting her out of the air is best, and otherwise spacing just outside of her Ftilt range is good so you can hit her coming in. The spacing is key.

If peach buffer rolls after the dtilt here, how would you pressure her out of your short hop? It seems like you can't aerial w/out getting cc'd and dair won't hit.

https://youtu.be/IomXcdAAt7E?t=6m58s

Drift back Nair is what I usually think of. You can also FF and turnaround grab.

 

[peedy]

Hey pp when you say work on dash back before dash forward what do you mean? Could you give a few examples?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I just mean that it's easier to react out of backing up then moving in a lot of the time. This is because you create space between yourself and the opponent instead of less space. Of course the two dashes are linked, and dashing in forces reactions because you close space and threaten direct attacks so you could argue that it's perhaps easiest to dash in then react on dash out, but the point is to react on dash out.

 

[Kotastic]

Need some help in the Fox mu

https://youtu.be/PJbjODgfSFU?t=55m6s - What's the optimal/mixup recovery here?

https://youtu.be/PJbjODgfSFU?t=55m12s - Best way to deal with this situation with the mixup between falling bair and DJ away?

https://youtu.be/PJbjODgfSFU?t=1h30s - Fox is confirming out of staying in place as I nair in place. Better options?

https://youtu.be/PJbjODgfSFU?t=1h2m17s - I'm not sure what to do when the Fox doesn’t full on approach with nairs. Do I need to call out with nair in place or dtilt the landing? Possible to pivot grab despite the threat of full in nair?
https://youtu.be/PJbjODgfSFU?t=1h2m22s - Here's me trying to counter the slight drift in nair with my nair, which the Fox simply dash backs punish.

https://youtu.be/PJbjODgfSFU?t=1h3m2s - I have trouble fighting this distance where Fox can somewhat safely laser. WD Fsmash is too much of a commitment since he can shield/FH/dash back while I get damaged. This often happens - https://youtu.be/PJbjODgfSFU?t=1h53m49s

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think you can sometimes hit Fox out of that up-B so that he falls etc but it's not reliable. You could have airdodged through or SDI'd up and in to airdodge afterward I think(Foxes don't up-B stall when you're lower anymore because you can hit the front side, so I just am thinking about abusing that here perhaps). Oh wait a minute, he didn't grab edge first lol, then yeah just hit him it's an easy reaction. I guess if you ignore all of that, then I'm not sure what's optimal. DJ Nair on can be okay if they try to go low, early DJ airdodge is good for similar reasons but later DJ airdodge is fine too. I dunno I feel like I'd just be listing a lot of stuff here since you're close to the edge and have your DJ.

Dtilt/Fair over it and don't swing if he doesn't put a move out is one way. You can always go for late coverage too with like Nair to pressure him if he lands with Bair but not Nair and then land and chase if he DJs away. Also just helps to keep in mind if he DJs a lot and at what spacings. Given he's farther away it's less likely he will Bair for example.

Don't Nair forward, otherwise it doesn't matter so much. It was kinda weird you dashed back when he was still in waveland back lag though so I have more of an issue with that and think you shouldn't have moved away or should have expected lasers/a deeper approach or taking stage then.

You can grab that Nair but you need to be closer. Distinguishing between pullback and fully in Nair is really hard but I managed to do it by practicing and really looking for it. So I think it can be done with training. If you see a pullback you need to be closer to grab, but of course confirming that is still going to be really hard. This is why you may opt for more zoning counters to approaches. Slowly rewatching this, you actually dashed in at the right time to grab the Nair but dashed back thinking it would be full on. This may be useful for you. Nairing in is super risky and wouldn't have gotten much in that other timestamp. Rising Fair would've worked better although still risky of course. You can Dtilt the landing but you'd be opting to hold down vs full Nair in and Dtilting if they pull back which isn't so bad. Maybe you can SH in place and drift in some for Fair if they pull back or hit them if they come fully in.

What I like to do if Fox is lasering is push in a bit. If he keeps lasering I can rush him with aerials and sometimes grab him out of the laser. If he stops then he either has to back up or come in or do a regular type of play. Either way it keeps me safe. Rushing in from that position is very easy to see coming, and Nair'ing in place isn't so bad if you predict an approach, but SH'ing in place might be a bit better sometimes so you can drift in if you see them shooting and put some pressure on them or counter them if you suspect a full approach.

 

[Reyjavik]

https://youtu.be/pNhDmA2QFVs?t=1m34s
This is from a while ago (hopefully I've improved since then) but how do you deal with Sheik on platform?
Even if you have center stage, they have so many options to get you with


https://youtu.be/pNhDmA2QFVs?t=2m11s
I'm unsure how to maximize nair in this matchup as it seems to be the only aerial button effective in neutral against sheik.
I feel I just got lucky with tippers as well in this set

https://youtu.be/pNhDmA2QFVs?t=2m47s
I wasn't sure what to do here against Sheik under platform. I'm like 50-60% effective at shield drops but I don't know any option that would beat Sheiks rising aerials besides a lucky dair.

https://youtu.be/pNhDmA2QFVs?t=6m14s
More of what I was talking about earlier with threatening. I could not figure a way to threaten sheik to get back stage control. They were dominating center stage while I brainstormed way to get in.

https://youtu.be/pNhDmA2QFVs?t=8m25s
How would you get out of this combo? I've been working a bit on sdi but have been more concerned with getting better at neutral. I'm starting to double stick more but its hard to quarter stick sdi

Overall I think I played awful and could have beaten if my skills were sharper. I still get annoyed when the game doesn't recognize to fall through platform but that's why I've been working on shield drops. The end of the first game was so bad, so much bad inputs
Also, if anyone can give any positives please do Makes me less sad about playing lol

 

[Dr Peepee]

You want to Fair her when she is on a platform. You moved in with Dtilt hoping she would run off.

Fair is better than Nair but you can't run into Sheik with it and often have to do it in place out of dash to make it work unless you call/confirm Sheik's jump.

Sheik was still in Utilt lag when you got your shield up so it's definitely possible you could have shield drop Dair'd I think. But WD off or FH off the platform, or waiting for her to hit your shield may be better options regardless.

Getting on the side platform was not a good idea. Just play the ground game. If you do get on, it helps not to get off into her. On top platform, don't runoff DJ like that because she can take your jump, and especially don't fall through the platform without it. Finally, you drop through the side platform without getting Fair out, but it might have hit if you did. The shield and rolling afterward were definitely what messed you up there. Try to work Dtilt in place or waiting a little bit there.

You could DJ out of the weak Nair, you could have DI'd away harder on the Ftilt or held down vs it and grabbed, you could have DJ attacked or retreated out of jab, you could have shielded/dashed out of landing from the jab and maybe Utilted, you could have WD'd away or SH'd in place to cover the Ftilt hitting shield instead of rolling....I think you have the idea.

 

[Reyjavik]

Thanks Kevin,
and yea a lot of my rolls are just missed inputs from either WDOOS or shield drops.
I think patience is name of the game rn. How did you shadowbox? I feel like my solo practice outside of tech skill is lacking.
I'm unsure how to visualize an opponent coming at me with an option and potential followup if the cpu is stationary/can't perform advanced skill

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'd suggest using the new 20XX mode to get the opponent to do options and you can practice beating them and then mix that all up.

 

[Reyjavik]

One thing I realized when going over save states in it, is how good nair is for platform edges. It makes so much more sense why you covered the platforms the way you did during EVO against Plup. I've been running the same state for awhile and it boggles me it covers a ton of sheiks options if you have center stage

 

[Kotastic]

Is there a reason why you should opt for WD/RC dtilt instead of DA? I feel like generally DA is so much higher reward, comes out faster, and can also hit someone in the air. It's riskier, but it's also a really good tool for force someone to respect my immediate forward space that I feel WD dtilt doesn't really do. I feel like WD dtilt is similar, but less reward and safer confirm. I've been really liking DA to beat people dash dancing in place not respecting the range and spamming moves in place.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dtilt beats holding down and shield, whereas DA doesn't usually beat either. There's also much more end lag on DA so if they dash back and dodge it's not a big deal. DA to me is better if you're sure it will hit and how it will hit to an extent, but Dtilt is overall more useful. That said, in matchups like Marth and Falco where the opponent doesn't shield much and Falco also doesn't hold down much, DA becomes more useful.

If you're willing to take the risk, then use DA I don't have an issue with anyone doing that. But I won't personally use it outside of an occasional mixup in the given matchups listed for the stated reasons.

 

[quixotic]

I'm having some trouble in the marth and falco matchups when they are in shield.
I'm not quite sure how to pressure their shield:

marth can threaten wd dtilt/nair oos and no fastfall short hop, and i feel like this mixup covers any close range dash dancing and immediate grab threats.

falco's sh laser out of shield feels very similar because he can punish me for waiting for a response out of shield and if I go for grab he can spotdodge or dair me.

Any thoughts on options that do well against these mixups? Thanks.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Don't try to grab them often. Going in for grab gives up all of the massive advantage you have against them when they shield. You don't need to DD much either since they can't contest you Dtilt/Fair'ing their shield. If Marth WDs in OOS you can just grab him then. If it's between WD and SH then you can just Fsmash when you see him move. Similar stuff with Falco but it's even easier since Falco has more jumpsquat and smaller moves and laser is super slow. So you can Fsmash/Ftilt/dash side B if you're really late his laser OOS and generally punish his other stuff as well. Basically you just want to abuse Marth's superior range over people who no longer have that advantage.