Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kotastic]

Some questions

https://youtu.be/LFe0k4TbxH4?t=4m41s
https://youtu.be/LFe0k4TbxH4?t=6m56s - For context before these interactions, Zain has been relying on a lot of zoning in place to get IBDW to respect his place. While there were some spots where I agreed, at some points like this I started to fundamentally disagree with it because then IBDW started to play around it. I'm pretty sure if IBDW went for running shine (fade back aerial if shine doesn't hit) or FH around this fair/nair, he would've won the neutral interaction. Sure it might be possible to still play the situation with more zoning, but I think there might be cleaner methods without relying on micro-outplays.

Once you reached to the point where the Fox respects your zoning space and is often trying to dash dance around it, is the play/mixup is to start using dash dance? What I mean is long dash forward to elicit a response from Fox's DD --> WD back observe. Perhaps there might be stuff I'm missing though, inputs?

https://youtu.be/YAgmV3cCKm0?t=30s - Why do you side-b here? What does landing this side-B accomplish? Why not jab?

https://youtu.be/YAgmV3cCKm0?t=53s - It seems like Zanzugen didn't really respect your space, but why does take laser dash back still work?

Aside from your set vs zanzugen, do you think any decent textbook Marth Falco sets exists? I feel like Zain's style is too hard to replicate with how he approaches the mu.

 

[maclo4]

Holy crap thank you kotastic

 

[Dr Peepee]

Some questions

https://youtu.be/LFe0k4TbxH4?t=4m41s
https://youtu.be/LFe0k4TbxH4?t=6m56s - For context before these interactions, Zain has been relying on a lot of zoning in place to get IBDW to respect his place. While there were some spots where I agreed, at some points like this I started to fundamentally disagree with it because then IBDW started to play around it. I'm pretty sure if IBDW went for running shine (fade back aerial if shine doesn't hit) or FH around this fair/nair, he would've won the neutral interaction. Sure it might be possible to still play the situation with more zoning, but I think there might be cleaner methods without relying on micro-outplays.

Once you reached to the point where the Fox respects your zoning space and is often trying to dash dance around it, is the play/mixup is to start using dash dance? What I mean is long dash forward to elicit a response from Fox's DD --> WD back observe. Perhaps there might be stuff I'm missing though, inputs?

https://youtu.be/YAgmV3cCKm0?t=30s - Why do you side-b here? What does landing this side-B accomplish? Why not jab?

https://youtu.be/YAgmV3cCKm0?t=53s - It seems like Zanzugen didn't really respect your space, but why does take laser dash back still work?

Aside from your set vs zanzugen, do you think any decent textbook Marth Falco sets exists? I feel like Zain's style is too hard to replicate with how he approaches the mu.

Well in both situations, Fox moves back as Marth moves in for zoning. So you could either move farther in before attacking, not attack to have less landing lag, or do something different besides dash back upon landing. Your solution is fine too, so long as the movement back isn't overdone so dash in loses its teeth.

I side B'd because I reacted out of dash, that's part of the power of dash side B. I beat this option and also beat him lasering in place which I thought was likely.

I don't understand your last question. If you mean he doesn't respect my space by lunging into me, then why wouldn't take laser dash back work if you have room?

Honestly, no there aren't any other textbook Falco vs Marth sets. Even this one could be massively updated on both sides but I feel it's the best that exists from the Marth's side in terms of options displayed right now. Some older Mango M2K one might be alright, and Zain has some okay stuff too like the lightshield stuff I guess. Overall it's really bad, but the good news is...well let me say this nicely: if you develop a decent gameplan you'll be alright vs Falcos atm.

 

[Kotastic]

For side-B, what's your thought process as you land the side-b? You tried to go for grab but then he spotdodged. Do you use it as a reset space?

For the last link, I often have trouble when Falco lunge with laser --> go forward with shine waveland to platform or another laser, both which beats dash back.

Idk, I guess I don't really know when take laser --> dash back is really that good and I'm not really sure why the Falco would opt to do laser --> full commit in with an aerial.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I try to space side B so I don't have to deal with that mixup and can just outspace whatever they can do.

Jumping in with Fair would beat both iirc(depending on spacing/timing). But yeah you can always just side B the laser startup and otherwise react to what he lands with or his DJ. I've never had a problem with anything Falco does out of SH in if I'm close enough with Fair. Usually he can just DJ away to dodge, mayyybe waveland down/back, but the waveland doesn't ever happen and the DJ doesn't reliably lead to a punish and stops his laser control anyway.

I like take laser dash back only when I'm in range for his approaching aerial. Not at the edge, but a bit closer to decently close so it makes him feel more confident he can hit it. Just dashing away a lot isn't the play to me, and you'll see that as you try dashing away a lot and he doesn't follow. It also helps to put pressure on him with moving in so he doesn't feel safe just shooting in place and waiting a lot.

 

[Kotastic]

What do you mean jumping in with fair? Do you mean take laser in the air (in place) fall down fair, take laser grounded rising fair in place, or intercepting with fair before the laser comes out?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Take laser dash back then dash in Fair as you confirm them coming in. You may be dashing in earlier if they don't immediately start coming in anyway.

Edit: There are other ways to do it though, like just taking laser then doing Fair or running and Fair'ing. It can depend. Sometimes you can even jump over low lasers.

 

[Kotastic]

What are some general things you don't like what Falcos are doing against Marth?

In my eyes, it seems like a decent amount of Marth's openings come from scrappy situations that converts to a kill due to Falco's fragile defense, like getting a waveland fair from platform, (light)shield grabs, PS grab, take laser from the air, somehow getting an aerial out of tumble, taking advantage of spawn positions, whiff punishing from falling aerial, or plainly just waiting for the falco to mess up. Most of these I noted from a quick 3 minute match of Zain being in his element: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H80nyevohS4 I only counted like 3 times where Zain outplayed Son2 in a true neutral stance, one where Zain wavelanded from take laser from the air middle of the YS game, another where Zain dashed back against Son's nair middle of BF, and another where Zain naired his laser startup towards the end. Rest were literally all scrappy situations in my eyes. I'm starting to think focusing on the little micro-situations might be better to focus vs Falco, but what are your thoughts?

In general, how do you feel about these kinds of "shield pressure" scenarios where they dash dance your shield? https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=4m41s https://youtu.be/1vXqzutULYQ?t=5m33s
I never get why some players do this, and I sometimes see mixed response for these. I think what they're expecting is a roll, and sometimes I do see that happening and sometimes not. You clearly don't fall for this, so how do you recognize that you're open to counterattack and is dash dancing in front of someone's shield ever good?

https://youtu.be/PySYJzCvxB8?t=8s - beginning of the match, I was throwing some walk dtilts to beat his dash dance. Soon, he countered this with a quick DD DA. Do you think that even though he outplayed me, doing those walk dtilts is fine at 0% due to holding down + possibility to amsah tech? If not, once that I established my walk dtilt threats where he respects it, is this where walk --> WD back becomes really effective?

Speaking of walk dtilt, I really like it in the mirror at closer quarters because I still have some range and I don't get easily whiff punished, CC'd, or jump counterattacked from committing to a WD, and slight walk alleviate all those issues with the cost of slightly less range. This can be punished if the other Marth tries DD around my walk dtilt, but I can DA them or dash back myself which I think is good risk/reward ratio.

https://youtu.be/PySYJzCvxB8?t=2m55s - upon further evaluation of this, I'm not sure if doing a RC dtilt was a great idea even if I could've gotten a CC grab if I was faster. Not only is there the immediate threat of WD dtilt or DA but also dtilt in place would've beaten that particular RC dtilt spacing I think. I'm kind of stuck on how to evaluate this position, where if the Marth has immediate access to his WD dtilt and movement tools. This position confuses me, but perhaps use the long dash forward to look for a response and then nair in place? But long dashing in is scary to do even at mid-range distance. Hrrnng

 

[Dr Peepee]

What are some general things you don't like what Falcos are doing against Marth?

In my eyes, it seems like a decent amount of Marth's openings come from scrappy situations that converts to a kill due to Falco's fragile defense, like getting a waveland fair from platform, (light)shield grabs, PS grab, take laser from the air, somehow getting an aerial out of tumble, taking advantage of spawn positions, whiff punishing from falling aerial, or plainly just waiting for the falco to mess up. Most of these I noted from a quick 3 minute match of Zain being in his element: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H80nyevohS4 I only counted like 3 times where Zain outplayed Son2 in a true neutral stance, one where Zain wavelanded from take laser from the air middle of the YS game, another where Zain dashed back against Son's nair middle of BF, and another where Zain naired his laser startup towards the end. Rest were literally all scrappy situations in my eyes. I'm starting to think focusing on the little micro-situations might be better to focus vs Falco, but what are your thoughts?

In general, how do you feel about these kinds of "shield pressure" scenarios where they dash dance your shield? https://youtu.be/00kWf6lvDhU?t=4m41s https://youtu.be/1vXqzutULYQ?t=5m33s
I never get why some players do this, and I sometimes see mixed response for these. I think what they're expecting is a roll, and sometimes I do see that happening and sometimes not. You clearly don't fall for this, so how do you recognize that you're open to counterattack and is dash dancing in front of someone's shield ever good?

https://youtu.be/PySYJzCvxB8?t=8s - beginning of the match, I was throwing some walk dtilts to beat his dash dance. Soon, he countered this with a quick DD DA. Do you think that even though he outplayed me, doing those walk dtilts is fine at 0% due to holding down + possibility to amsah tech? If not, once that I established my walk dtilt threats where he respects it, is this where walk --> WD back becomes really effective?

Speaking of walk dtilt, I really like it in the mirror at closer quarters because I still have some range and I don't get easily whiff punished, CC'd, or jump counterattacked from committing to a WD, and slight walk alleviate all those issues with the cost of slightly less range. This can be punished if the other Marth tries DD around my walk dtilt, but I can DA them or dash back myself which I think is good risk/reward ratio.

https://youtu.be/PySYJzCvxB8?t=2m55s - upon further evaluation of this, I'm not sure if doing a RC dtilt was a great idea even if I could've gotten a CC grab if I was faster. Not only is there the immediate threat of WD dtilt or DA but also dtilt in place would've beaten that particular RC dtilt spacing I think. I'm kind of stuck on how to evaluate this position, where if the Marth has immediate access to his WD dtilt and movement tools. This position confuses me, but perhaps use the long dash forward to look for a response and then nair in place? But long dashing in is scary to do even at mid-range distance. Hrrnng

In terms of top Falcos, not lasering enough, lunging too much, trying to Bair wall, not juggling/edgeguarding that well, trying to Utilt on shield, the non grounded double shine and high dair on shield(consistently). There are probably other things.

I think Marths play it in a way to, as Druggedfox puts it "severely execution-test" Falco. I think playing this way will work fine vs any Falco you play currently, so I guess I can leave that to your judgment.

This question has a lot going on in it, and I don't think I'd cover it all in one shot. Something to consider though is that if you DD you're constantly adjusting your space around your opponent, and also more importantly threatening movement in with your dash in, but letting them think they're safe with dash back. In that sense, it's like thinking of fast dash in WD back over and over. Most people don't usually use the DD for this as their DD has little intent and instead opt to use it to keep tempo high and hopefully build off of previous situations, and may also be using it to wait a little bit and encourage an attack/action oos to punish or pressure.

ROFLL dang gonna make me analyze against Marth homies. And yeah that's definitely part of the advantage of doing Dtilt, so practicing that tech could prove useful.

Agreed at walk Dtilt stuff.

Well you had slight advantage since he had rolled away and you were actionable first. You were slow to execute RC Dtilt looks like, but even if you weren't he would have held down vs it looks like. (dash quickly into) WD Dtilt would've gotten you there a bit faster and that may have been worth using instead. Again keep in mind you had advantage here, so pushing in is a safer play since it's even less likely he will move in right as you do, giving you a bit of free manipulation. Besides that, you could consider what he's normally doing in those spacings. If you're super worried about getting hit, find the information first. You can always dash in some amount and WD down to ensure holding down and take a bit of space as well. Lots of ways to hedge your bets here.

Dr Peepee , sorry to bother you here but you once told me that you don't read your PMs anymore since you get too many so I'm using this thread to contact you.
Within the next day or two, I'll write you and the other melee mods a message about some changes I would suggest about the melee discussion forum. I'd really appreciate your input.

If you've read this, you can leave a like and I'll delete my post so your thread isn't cluttered up. Or you can delete it yourself.

I see. Yeah I look at my PM list occasionally so now that I know your name I can see it sometime. At any rate, yeah I'd be down to take a look at it and will be looking for it.

 

[Agrathor3]

Hey PP, so I've working on applying pressure to people in the corner by basically running or wd'ing in then either jump back early fair or d-tilting them until they start to shield and once they do I'll mix in run up empty back hop into a dd grab or like waveland forward grab. Then next time they are in the same situation I'll do the same run up back hop but I'll air dodge into the ground to avoid them if they call out the empty hop or ill do a delayed fair depending on how I feel at the time. I do this to see how they adapt to the same action in the same situation and if they don't adapt then I'll keep punishing them for shielding and if they do then next time the situation occurs I start covering their oos options and just try to keep them stuck in the corner. I was just wondering what are your thoughts on this method of corner pressure? Also how do you like to apply pressure to people in the corner / stop them from getting back to center stage?

 

[maclo4]

Not really a question just agreeing with the sentiment of Marths playing the falco mu as a big execution test. Especially Zain lol. I just analyzed him va ginger earlier today and I swear 90% of openings/kills are from ginger messing up and Zain taking advantage, or else Zain using his invincibility really effectively. And barely any cases where Zain approaches in neutral. Trying to figure out how to not play it that way but it’s harder for sure

 

[peedy]

I don't think gingers problem is his tech (although that could get better) I think ginger has a problem with his approaches. He doesn't really threaten with dash dance with seems weird to me. When he does dash dance he's so far away that it doesn't allow him to faint or bait. Maybe more dash dance in when zain is clearly just standing there. You could mix it up with dash in laser, dash in aerial, dash in dash back laser in place, dash in place, dash back laser, dash back dash forward laser etc. I kinda like running in shield too lol but not sure how viable that is against Marth. Either way, I could be wrong I just think that dash is a really good conditioning tool against Marth and ginger plays so far away making it hard to use this. He also doesn't combo as well as other Falco's for some reason

Another thing too is you can option select at close range so if your opponent hits you with power shield laser you can move out of it immediately which I don't think anyone has explored yet. Zain also misses chain grabs from time to time and I don't see Falco players teching it which again is an option select thing. Either way, these are all things that Falco's hasn't really effectively used in his game. I think if his tech skill was better he'd still lose. I don't see any Falco's effectively implementing any of these things effectively which makes it seem kinda free for Marth.

I'm also a low level Falco/Marth player and ginger's amazing just think theirs huge holes in his neutral that he and other falco's need to address

**** just realized this is posted in the marth forum. Sorry

 

[maclo4]

That might be true but in the set I watched specifically Zain really did capitalize on errors a lot. Some of them weren’t tech flubs but just unprovoked dumb decisions

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, so I've working on applying pressure to people in the corner by basically running or wd'ing in then either jump back early fair or d-tilting them until they start to shield and once they do I'll mix in run up empty back hop into a dd grab or like waveland forward grab. Then next time they are in the same situation I'll do the same run up back hop but I'll air dodge into the ground to avoid them if they call out the empty hop or ill do a delayed fair depending on how I feel at the time. I do this to see how they adapt to the same action in the same situation and if they don't adapt then I'll keep punishing them for shielding and if they do then next time the situation occurs I start covering their oos options and just try to keep them stuck in the corner. I was just wondering what are your thoughts on this method of corner pressure? Also how do you like to apply pressure to people in the corner / stop them from getting back to center stage?

That's not so bad for the general corner pressure, but diversifying would probably help you a bit. Fair'ing in place, dash/WD back or WD down, drifting in with late Fair....can all be good. Also, if they always expect the movement in and then a decision, you may want to either change when you move in(from stand or from aerial or from dash back, or just wait a bit more before committing) or just waiting a bit more in general since the timing change will be hard for them to beat and then they can't just try to abuse simple plays.

Vs shield, your actions are pretty elaborate. Just spacing a Fair or Dtilt on shield and then being ready to grab/attack if they jump or WD in oos or pressure their movement away is often easier and safer. Still, empty lands and occasional wavelands can definitely be good. Your strategy and outline isn't bad, but refining it some would definitely benefit you.

 

[quixotic]

What can marth do against fox standing outside of aerial oos range and reacting to wavedash forwards/sh aerial? (marth is cornered)

Also one more question: https://youtu.be/nm9KbirBA5Q?t=3m30s
how do I catch fox's full hop out of shield? it seems like I need to dash forwards to hit the rising fair here but that makes fair even worse if he holds shield

 

[Dr Peepee]

If fully cornered and you're shielding, it can depend on what the Fox is reacting with. I find that not doing immediate aerial OOS but either drifting forward or landing in place(if in place you can do no aerial) can help you get some momentum back. If you feel he's covering everything, then you mostly have to go to edge. There's usually a way out if you can figure out what they're looking for but it is an outplay. So if they are waiting for an early movement, do a mid or late one. If they react to that other stuff, you can get weird and WD down or FH to side platform. If they only want to punish early OOS aerials you do mid or late, and if they set up pressure on mid or late then you empty land or drift in to hit their setup, or drift/waveland back so they setup in the wrong place and give you some room. Etc etc etc

You just react after landing instead of predicting....or you can hit a later Fair out of that FH you did I guess to use the other rising Fair to hit him coming OOs I guess but that does potentially present the problem you describe. Landing with Fair is fine, and if he FHs you need to know when you can and can't hit him directly OOS. Mid or late Fair helps give you more leeway so that's one thing, but the other is if you're spaced and Fair then you have advantage so you get a bit of leeway to react. It would be worth practicing the reaction here. Also worth mentioning he drifted back out of FH so if this is a common choice then you get an easier reaction since you don't have to worry about him coming in and just need to see if he jumps back and be ready to run in or see if he holds shield or whatever else is common.

 

[peedy]

Hey pp so normally I play ranked on netplay. I'm gold 3. Today I decided to play on friendlies. I played 2 platinums and a master today. Something weird happened the first 4 or 5 games I would lose but then I would start destroying these players who were significantly better than me. They were all playing their mains. It was interesting to say the least.

I think part of the reason is because I have a horrible and I mean horrible punish game and am focusing exclusively on neutral and dash dance. Found in each circumstance my dash dance would always be off the first 3 or 4 games then it would get really good. In sports it was the same way I could shot better than all my friends after I did a few repitions but if we took a one hour break I was always worse at shooting until I warmed back up. I take a lot longer to warm up than other players

Do you have any tips to get this sorted. One problem is I can't just grind my tech skill. For example after doing wavedash so for a 30 seconds I'll get them all perfectly but how do I get them down the first try? I can space against sheik really well after 4 games well enough to beat a master 3 consistantly however once he switches characters to say marth it takes me a few more games to space

What could I do to fix this?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't really know your practice regimen, but that tends to be the issue for many people. If you practice WDs all of the time, then you don't need to warm them up in serious matches. Likewise if you're shadowboxing around these different characters in your mind or doing analysis of them and staying familiar with these ranges you won't need to get adjusted. I also have short mantras I may say or certain options I may specifically think about just as they switch which downloads the main gameplan I have against the characters.

 

[peedy]

Do you have to crouch to reduce knockback? Say I'm in the air and I hold down with the control stick or if I'm fast falling will it reduce how far I go? Or say if I'm dash dancing could I hold down on the control stick to reduce knockback even if I'm not crouching?

 

[Kotastic]

You have to physically crouch on the ground to reduce knockback. If you're not physically crouching and only doing ASDI down (say out of up-b lag), depending on the threshold you either enter a land cancel state which makes crouch canceling possible or make it possible to amsah tech for some reason. Crouching prior makes both windows wider. You cannot crouch cancel in the air, that would make Peach stupidly op. It is possible you can hold cstick down during dash dance and always ASDI down.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

Hey PP. I recently played a set against an old school ex-pr/about to pr'd next season again sheik who's really good vs. marths, and I have a few questions, mostly pertaining to juggling as I do really poorly hitting sheik, even after I bait out DJs.
Also holy moly does analysis take a lot of time.

Juggling questions
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLj6IGZaSSI#t=8s
So ideally I'd have hit the utilt, but I was late and he was able to jump out. I struggle a lot where I uthrow a sheik and then miss utilt and get nothing as I'm either too late, or they come down with an aerial that I dash into trying to shark their landing. In this case I get an upair, but it took my fh to land it and I get nothing after that because I'm too slow to come down. Do you have any suggestions for ways to continue that punish there?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLj6IGZaSSI#t=30s
Here I got his jump and then hit him with a soft uair. I think I was too antsy trying to jump and hit him with another aerial and could have just waited for an aerial coming down or a wiggle airdodge and hit him out of that instead of jumping to hit him? What do you suggest?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLj6IGZaSSI#t=1m15s
I have sheik pretty high up, and I want to send her offstage so I use a nair to cover top plat. I get that it was too commital as he just reacted and drifted to the side plat. Should I just have wavelanded on the side plat and threatened utilt or fsmash? I often suck in those positions too where I'll get hit by a ff aerial or swing at an airdodge and not be able to punish the landing after that.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLj6IGZaSSI#t=1m50s
Again I have him up and barely miss an uair 2 times, once towards the start and the other time when he gets back down. I thought I waited out his options well, and it seems like I just barely miss his drift at the end.


Others
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLj6IGZaSSI#t=53s
I drop a punish and he escapes while I whiff a grab trying to go after his landing. Since he rolled out, do you think pressing in was ok? He did end up FH needling and I could've got under him and punished it. After the needles I see him dashing off so I tried to fair him by dashing down myself and end up getting DD grabbed for it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLj6IGZaSSI#t=1m
What do you usually look for when dthrowing a sheik offstage? I feel like there's a lot of things to look for, like fsmashing bad DI, watching for if they recover high, coming back with an aerial, airdodging, going super low but DJ and up-b sweetspotting, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLj6IGZaSSI#t=1m11s
I wanted to challenge his recovery since he was pretty high up. In this case he DJs to avoid me as opposed to dropping low like I thought he would have. If you were to go offstage would you have FH'd out just to observe his reaction and also to scare him from drifting too close, then simply DJ back to stage and continue the edgeguard normally?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLj6IGZaSSI#t=2m29s
He's cornered and shielding and I jab his shield anticipating him to grab or jump, but instead he WD forward ftilts me as I jump in preparation of him jumping. How do you notice people tend to respond to getting their shield jabbed in the corner?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CLj6IGZaSSI#t=2m59s
I'm really sad I get his jump but it's with a weak fair so he just lands and shield grabs me. I'm thinking maybe I should've naired to continue the punish but would like to hear your opinion.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, practicing the Utilt is one solution. But sometimes you won't have frame advantage anyway, so you can let them jump and SH/DJ Uair FF and continue your punish from there. You could also have used dash away dash in FH Fair to punish this particular jump.

That Fair would've been really hard to hit since he's above you. Uair is likely better, but so is waiting for him to come down and Utilt/SH Uair him, or dash FH toward center and Bair him. If you felt confident you could hit wiggle out airdodge and any mixups like falling Dair then it's really up to you how to handle it.
He's really far away from you after you land on the ground after the second Uair. So it helps to get a bit closer or let him fall into you some. In this situation since I don't think he had a jump, you could have FH'd and then risen with Fair/Uair/maybe Bair depending on where he went. In this case, DJ Fair would have worked fine for you. You may need to slightly wait before jumping or delay between FH and DJ, and these timing differences seem to trip people up so be mindful of them.

For that last Uair, you could've hit it one of two ways. You could have waited ever so slightly to SH, or you could have waited just a bit longer to Uair. I mean I guess you could have drifted toward him a bit more too so more of an upward hitbox hits him, but I'm not sure that would have worked as easily in this particular case without using at least a little of one of those other solutions.

Pressing in is okay here, but would be much better if you didn't whiff the grab. You had very little advantage as a result so I think backing off was alright, but the Fair you did didn't beat anything since he couldn't have gotten to you to get hit by it. Movement in or back is okay, and you could have waited a moment as well, which would have allowed you to confirm shield and move forward in this instance.

I have talked with Kotastic about so much Sheik offstage stuff lately, so I'd suggest going and reading a lot of it. In this position it can be hard to cover stuff since she's low percent and right by the edge. You can turn around and hold down to beat her coming up and if she goes low you can runoff DJ Dair. You can hold down in place to hit/avoid and hit her rising aerial and otherwise WD to edge. You can wait turned around to dash away from rising aerial and then runoff DJ Dair or WD to edge. You can SH in place and Bair/reverse Nair her DJ aerial or Dair if she goes to edge or waveland to edge or drift to edge and ignore aerial but try to Dair edgecancel grab edge.....so basically this all depends on what you think and how you manipulate.

Hm that's kinda weird. It's a bit hard to say offhand if I would have reverse SH'd out to threaten Bair instead, or waited slightly longer/dashed slightly longer before jumping out. I'm also thinking about delaying the Fair slightly more in the place you did it so you could confirm DJ and DJ Fair it, but that doesn't feel like something I did too much so that's probably not the right answer. I would say change up your spacing/timing slightly because it should be possible to hit whatever he does or make him fadeback as his only solution in this situation.

It's very different if you tipper/space on their shield as opposed to being closer. In this case, their response makes sense to me. If you're spaced, then this is less likely and your position is overall much stronger.

Yeah Nair is probably the right option, but you could have done a SH in place mid height Fair that tippers I think.

 

[Kotastic]

I've been thinking a lot of using simple movement stuff against Marth/Sheik, and I think I have some solid foundations laid out. Just a clarification though:
To coax the Sheik to not needle or Marth not to dash back, dash in --> WD in dtilt covers a great distance. Because WD dtilt is such an established threat in these grounded mu's, they need to look out for it. Thus, I've formulated...
Dash in --> WD down observe to see how they react to my supposed WD in as info and respond accordingly.
Ram into me, dash in WD back retaliate.
Waiting in place or dash back, dash in WD in dtilt.
Jump, I can dash wait WD dtilt their landing or jump aerial them which I'm primarily looking out for.
Thing is, I'm not sure if WD down is necessarily the best option to default to after a dash in. I feel like by chance, I could just get hail married DA'd or grab by Sheik/Marth by chance in response to my dash in, which could potentially cost my stock. Would dash in WD back be better, or am I worrying too much.

Also, I've been thinking that my solo practice schedule is severely lacking for Peach and Marth. For every other character, I have detailed exercises that gives me very good punish game practice. Here's a run down if you'd like to read it (or anyone else that wants to practice this too).
Fox: Beat up for 2:30 minutes on 2 different stages, not FD. Practice optimal platform followups. Then, CG on FD + pivot grabs. Then, practice the side-B reaction with fsmash/ftilt + option select to ASDI down. Then, practice side-b reaction going out there and fair.
Falco: CG on FD + pivot grabs. Then, practice side-b reaction with going out there and fair. Then practice a gimp scenario of dthrow --> dtilt, react the jump side-b with double jabs + option select ASDI down. Then, practice punishing lazy ledge options primarily by shielding high dair, double lasers, and side-b from Up-B OoS or WD fsmash/grab. Then, UP mod with PS event and practice back dash/crouch/regular PS, ZPS, and take laser jab/dash
Sheik: Simulate some scenarios where I can runoff fair/neutral b edgeguard her. Then dthrow and have her recover barely on stage and waveland tipper fsmash practice.
Puff: Dash grab crouching puff, then pivot fsmash her at kill percents.
Falcon: RTC until 44%, then practice true up-throw followups from the flowchart Setchi provided.
Peach: Shield DI away dsmash on UP an maybe punish with fair OoS or WD grab if I'm crazy.
Marth: Dtilt or fair dash back shield grab on UP.

As you can see in comparison, Peach and Marth are severely lacking in what I can solo practice but I'm not sure what I can add right now. I guess I can do upthrow flowchart on Marth, but I find that chart impractical as I have a simpler flowchart where I fthrow and nair DI in or regrab no DI, then up throw down and away for an easy rising fair strings starting at 9%. Requires very little practice and easy to do on my part. What are your suggestions for effective, practical scenarios I can do to solo practice against those characters?

 

[deft1]

hi pp, how would you go about making a gameplan of marth vs falcon? my current gameplan is to dtilt him to get him to jump more and dash less, focus on closing space and fighting in short-range or mid-range, and to stay grounded and work jab/sideb/utilt/pivot fairs. what do you think about this gameplan, and what tweaks could i make to it?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've been thinking a lot of using simple movement stuff against Marth/Sheik, and I think I have some solid foundations laid out. Just a clarification though:
To coax the Sheik to not needle or Marth not to dash back, dash in --> WD in dtilt covers a great distance. Because WD dtilt is such an established threat in these grounded mu's, they need to look out for it. Thus, I've formulated...
Dash in --> WD down observe to see how they react to my supposed WD in as info and respond accordingly.
Ram into me, dash in WD back retaliate.
Waiting in place or dash back, dash in WD in dtilt.
Jump, I can dash wait WD dtilt their landing or jump aerial them which I'm primarily looking out for.
Thing is, I'm not sure if WD down is necessarily the best option to default to after a dash in. I feel like by chance, I could just get hail married DA'd or grab by Sheik/Marth by chance in response to my dash in, which could potentially cost my stock. Would dash in WD back be better, or am I worrying too much.

Also, I've been thinking that my solo practice schedule is severely lacking for Peach and Marth. For every other character, I have detailed exercises that gives me very good punish game practice. Here's a run down if you'd like to read it (or anyone else that wants to practice this too).
Fox: Beat up for 2:30 minutes on 2 different stages, not FD. Practice optimal platform followups. Then, CG on FD + pivot grabs. Then, practice the side-B reaction with fsmash/ftilt + option select to ASDI down. Then, practice side-b reaction going out there and fair.
Falco: CG on FD + pivot grabs. Then, practice side-b reaction with going out there and fair. Then practice a gimp scenario of dthrow --> dtilt, react the jump side-b with double jabs + option select ASDI down. Then, practice punishing lazy ledge options primarily by shielding high dair, double lasers, and side-b from Up-B OoS or WD fsmash/grab. Then, UP mod with PS event and practice back dash/crouch/regular PS, ZPS, and take laser jab/dash
Sheik: Simulate some scenarios where I can runoff fair/neutral b edgeguard her. Then dthrow and have her recover barely on stage and waveland tipper fsmash practice.
Puff: Dash grab crouching puff, then pivot fsmash her at kill percents.
Falcon: RTC until 44%, then practice true up-throw followups from the flowchart Setchi provided.
Peach: Shield DI away dsmash on UP an maybe punish with fair OoS or WD grab if I'm crazy.
Marth: Dtilt or fair dash back shield grab on UP.

As you can see in comparison, Peach and Marth are severely lacking in what I can solo practice but I'm not sure what I can add right now. I guess I can do upthrow flowchart on Marth, but I find that chart impractical as I have a simpler flowchart where I fthrow and nair DI in or regrab no DI, then up throw down and away for an easy rising fair strings starting at 9%. Requires very little practice and easy to do on my part. What are your suggestions for effective, practical scenarios I can do to solo practice against those characters?

You could always just dash in and let it stall out too. No need to commit to extra lag unless you want a hard stop, or you dash into run a bit(both good reasons to dash in WD down). Also if they DA on your WD down you're holding down so lol, but if you're like me and don't want to take unnecessary damage or want something that works at all percents then WD down is more of a mixup and stalling out the dash in becomes more preferable. However, it's all preference in these cases. Dash in WD back either moves your overall position back from where you started, or puts you back where you started depending on how long you dash/run and how far you WD. So even in suggesting dash in WD down/back there will still be different variations within this. I suggest experimenting and seeing what feels best.

How is ZPS practice working out for you btw? Very interested.

Is Setchi's flowchart the stuff from his YT vids?

You can practice Fthrow pivot/walk tipper on Peach(and Marth I guess too) for the relevant %s and DIs. You could practice some juggles I suppose, or at least hitting her parasol when she goes low, or hitting some drifts if she goes high/mid.

Practice hitting the Uthrow Utilt on Marth and any mixup if you decide to let him get away is probably good, and maybe practiced edge stuff to get around his edgeguards. You could also practice spacing around Dtilt in place into shield or moving forward Dtilt etc just to be sure you can hit those tighter timings.

hi pp, how would you go about making a gameplan of marth vs falcon? my current gameplan is to dtilt him to get him to jump more and dash less, focus on closing space and fighting in short-range or mid-range, and to stay grounded and work jab/sideb/utilt/pivot fairs. what do you think about this gameplan, and what tweaks could i make to it?

If Falcon likes to stay grounded, then the Dtilt is good. In my experience I find Falcon already wants to jump a lot so I don't need to Dtilt much and can focus more on Nair/Fair'ing him out of the air. Dtilt is important as it makes him act first, and occasionally you could run in and grab if he likes to shield it. Also, running up and AC Nair'ing in place around where he is can be good at beating some of his aerials but being relatively safe from an aerial/grab punish. You can decide how important this is to use. Overall your plan looks good.

 

[Kotastic]

What do you mean stalling out dash in? Do you mean just dash in and do nothing?

ZPS...not sure what to think about yet, though I've been practicing it the past week and a half and I've been primarily setting it up by take laser hold A or WD hold A. I've tested it in some friendlies, and while it does make the window larger, because I'm holding A it basically has to be a read that the Falco will laser as opposed to aerial at closer spacings. If the Falco doesn't even laser at all, such as just messing up the laser timing, then I just light shield in place like a moron and it feels bad. There's probably some scenarios where ZPS might be essential, but I'll see as I play more friendlies with this. Other PS tactics like crouch or back dash PS are waaay easier to execute and react out of, but they're not all-encompassing like ZPS.

I actually asked Setchi in discord for optimal up-throw Falcon followups, as with my own testing I discovered Marth's up-throw on Falcon is never actually a true combo if Falcon DI's hard away and buffers tap jump (3 frame leniency) to escape upthrow. I'm not sure why Kadano listed in his chart that up-throw uptilt works on DI away at like mid-20's but from my experience up-throw uptilt on DI away using the combo counter in training mode never confirmed it as a true combo and using frame-by-frame advance told me as well (as P1), as well as in friendlies where I always felt like Falcons got out of my up-throw when they DI'd away if they jumped early enough. Furthermore, Falcon can just slight DI in up-throw and at best for Marth make it a 50/50 follow-up, so the 44% is where Setchi believes it's optimal. https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/436783033069076480/465784182791077889/unknown.png
You can also (turnaround) uptilt neutral DI for potential followup or tech chase

I'll try finding methods where I can somehow simulate Peach/Marth juggle scenarios, sounds practical

Didn't think about the Marth suggestions, I'll definitely look into spacing around dtilt in place and edgeguards.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes

You could switch hand positions and pivot grab if they aerial, right? Or are you rushing in assuming they will laser?

Hm, the Uthrow Utilt on away DI worked with me and $mike when we tested it there as Marth P1. I will have to investigate that in frame advance as well. Agreed at slight DI. Thanks for the chart.

 

[Kotastic]

Hm, I never thought about just switching hand positions, probably because I was super intent on just executing ZPS on the first place lol. But I never thought that I could probably just switch positions on the whim. I don't rush in, but I did assume they will laser whenever I set up ZPS. I suppose at the very least, ZPS isn't as limiting as I thought.

 

[deft1]

regarding building intentionality, i feel like my subconscious understanding has yet to grasp the concepts that ive been learning, so i want to start over. reset how i think about my intentions and start over. what are some beginner movement options that are simple, yet effective? move usage thats simple yet effective? i want to build my foundation from the ground up, because right now i am not in a comfortable spot in terms of neutral game and my own intention. i can move around just fine and have control over my character, i just dont know why im doing what im doing. in kind of a rut right now and just want some advice on how i could go about re-learning basic concepts.

 

[AirFair]

I've been studying positions in the marth ditto more, since I see that I need a lot more work in playing when closer (within TR) vs marth. This has led me to think more about how to play these positions in general.

When I have marth cornered or off balance, I can often avoid dtilt in place when pushing in, but then I might get caught out by them wd'ing forward and dtilting me, or following me with dash attack. While part of the answer I think is pushing in from a bit farther away, I also think that I can be using the information that I'm getting from these situations much better, instead of getting confused by looking for the same things all the time.

Is trying to nair at marth when I'm expecting a dtilt in place a good idea? I could also use nair to beat them trying to wd dtilt me too. I'm not sure how much I like this option mainly because I can get fsmashed or faired and potentially die. I know that jumping has it's place when playing marth in general, but in this matchup in particular it can be really dangerous to break the rule haphazardly. What I would usually try is to push in and space around the dtilt and try to scout out a lunge or attack, and then I can see if they dash away or try and zone in place, and deal with both.

regarding a similar position, some ideas I've had to better corner marth involve using walk dtilt which can beat them trying to wd dtilt me, and I can bait out lunges that I can beat too (wd/dash back to beat dash attack or nair for example). If they are waiting then I can poke them with wd dtilt. I came up with this because I would dash at a marth waiting in the corner to observe, and then he would wd dtilt me retreating. You can definitely see why I would want to improve here lol

to sort of flip the question around, when I'm the marth off balance, how can I avoid losing the scramble? I'm usually using dtilt in place to beat them running at me (fsmash sometimes when cornered since it beats them jumping at me), and wd/dash away to try and reset. I try and confirm them attacking me before I dtilt, but sometimes I kind of have to guess. I think in this position I can sort of predict what my opponent will try, and maybe there is information I can use there to better defend myself when the situation happens again.

I'm trying to improve a lot on fighting in TR, since I think that will improve my defense a lot, as well as how I can beat people when they are cornered and I can start to close in on them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

regarding building intentionality, i feel like my subconscious understanding has yet to grasp the concepts that ive been learning, so i want to start over. reset how i think about my intentions and start over. what are some beginner movement options that are simple, yet effective? move usage thats simple yet effective? i want to build my foundation from the ground up, because right now i am not in a comfortable spot in terms of neutral game and my own intention. i can move around just fine and have control over my character, i just dont know why im doing what im doing. in kind of a rut right now and just want some advice on how i could go about re-learning basic concepts.

wavedashes, RC/WD Dtilt, AC Nair and variously timed Fairs but also dash in Fair in place vs retreating etc, edge stuff can be alright too. The point of the basic tech is to help you think about the purpose of it and how it relates to your other tools. It sounds very dumb, but if you want some reassurance I've been talking to many others here and when I finally get them doing basic actions consciously they begin to make those connections on their own. I do hope one of them will read this and offer their own perspective here(but you can ask the regulars yourself as well). Marth is also really nice in that he rewards basic play pretty well, so if you can develop basic mixups like move in with Dtilt, vs move in with Fair/Nair, vs move in move back for info, vs move in and hold a new position....you begin to see the power a single dash/WD can have. Practicing the basics while thinking of the tool properties and the connections with the other tools is useful for this as I have said. Don't rush to overdo complexity.

I've been studying positions in the marth ditto more, since I see that I need a lot more work in playing when closer (within TR) vs marth. This has led me to think more about how to play these positions in general.

When I have marth cornered or off balance, I can often avoid dtilt in place when pushing in, but then I might get caught out by them wd'ing forward and dtilting me, or following me with dash attack. While part of the answer I think is pushing in from a bit farther away, I also think that I can be using the information that I'm getting from these situations much better, instead of getting confused by looking for the same things all the time.

Is trying to nair at marth when I'm expecting a dtilt in place a good idea? I could also use nair to beat them trying to wd dtilt me too. I'm not sure how much I like this option mainly because I can get fsmashed or faired and potentially die. I know that jumping has it's place when playing marth in general, but in this matchup in particular it can be really dangerous to break the rule haphazardly. What I would usually try is to push in and space around the dtilt and try to scout out a lunge or attack, and then I can see if they dash away or try and zone in place, and deal with both.

regarding a similar position, some ideas I've had to better corner marth involve using walk dtilt which can beat them trying to wd dtilt me, and I can bait out lunges that I can beat too (wd/dash back to beat dash attack or nair for example). If they are waiting then I can poke them with wd dtilt. I came up with this because I would dash at a marth waiting in the corner to observe, and then he would wd dtilt me retreating. You can definitely see why I would want to improve here lol

to sort of flip the question around, when I'm the marth off balance, how can I avoid losing the scramble? I'm usually using dtilt in place to beat them running at me (fsmash sometimes when cornered since it beats them jumping at me), and wd/dash away to try and reset. I try and confirm them attacking me before I dtilt, but sometimes I kind of have to guess. I think in this position I can sort of predict what my opponent will try, and maybe there is information I can use there to better defend myself when the situation happens again.

I'm trying to improve a lot on fighting in TR, since I think that will improve my defense a lot, as well as how I can beat people when they are cornered and I can start to close in on them.

Nair in place to cover him moving in and being safe from Dtilt in place is one solution. Jumping in is often only better if you're confident or react really quickly to a Dtilt you expect to come out. You can also Fsmash around the Dtilt if you space pretty well, and I've moved between Dtilts and gotten my own Dtilt off before but it's difficult. So there are other options to try and also to help you mitigate risk. Oh and I guess you could DA too that's probably easier to hit.

It looks like they waited for you to move in then went in afterward to hit your movement back if I understand you correctly. So yes walking and lunging would help. In general just controlling space, or tying other things to moving in/moving back could make them less confident in their punishes. If they run in as you move back every time, you can run up grab them. If they're waiting until you move in to confirm this, then you can WD/dash in and Dtilt or aerial or Fsmash them as you move in and see them come in.

When cornered, it helps to sometimes let them lunge and beat them, but I also like giving myself some breathing room so I can fully dash back and then play from there. So I might dash/run in a bit then dash/WD back to ensure they move back and I'm still largely safe. Then I can move in. Sometimes though if they stay close to me I may wait a bit to let them get antsy that I didn't panic option and then I can lunge or counter them coming in. It can depend on what they're choosing a lot. So if you'd like to go into more specifics when you're cornered or they are, you can let me know.





Also everyone: the hurricane is coming and will certainly be affecting where I normally live. I will be traveling tomorrow to avoid it but will hopefully be available to answer questions tomorrow night or day after. Hopefully thats my only delay and nothing happens to my apartment, but if it does and I have to spend time dealing with it then I will get back to you all when I can.

 

[deft1]

right, the whole point of me wanting to re-learn things is to make sure i understand the basics, and understand the purposes of individual tools and how they connect with others. i already see some connections but they arent as clear, so i want to sort of reset my mind and come back with more focus on individual dash/wd motions and how i can utilize them effectively in tandem with my other tools. i think my biggest weakness right now is that im bad at observing my opponent and getting info out of them with my actions, so ill try and mess around with some dash in/wd back or some more long dash forwards

 

[Kotastic]

Practicing basic tools and really internalizing it down to a science has really helped me a lot recently, and once I've internalized such concepts deeply and slowly began connecting it to more complex tools has helped me give more depth to my gameplay. At the very least, I feel like whenever I get hit it feels more like I got outplayed than not knowing why I got hit out of dashes/WD's. deft1

Also hope you're safe PP! Wish the best of luck to you that the situation will be dealt fine.

 

[Zorcey]

regarding building intentionality, i feel like my subconscious understanding has yet to grasp the concepts that ive been learning, so i want to start over. reset how i think about my intentions and start over. what are some beginner movement options that are simple, yet effective? move usage thats simple yet effective? i want to build my foundation from the ground up, because right now i am not in a comfortable spot in terms of neutral game and my own intention. i can move around just fine and have control over my character, i just dont know why im doing what im doing. in kind of a rut right now and just want some advice on how i could go about re-learning basic concepts.

Like PP said, maybe it'd be a good idea for the other Marths to reply to this as well. I think one of the most important concepts when practicing intention, is to recognize which opponent options each of your tools beat in the position (situation+spacing+context) you're in, as well as the reverse. You also want to learn how you can use your tools to confirm what the opponent is doing whenever possible (as well as recognizing what positions/tools don't give you that luxury). So the idea is to learn the ins and outs of all your tools, and to train yourself to observe out of those tools so you get an idea of how your opponent will be playing at least the important positions. (This is the stuff I'm working on right now, anyway.)

Good luck PP, hoping you stay safe (and your apartment does too lol).

 

[peedy]

Best advice PP gave in the past on learning intention in my opinion

1. Look at low-level matchups. What people are threatening is a lot easier since their lower level and build your way up
2. Spam neutral. Play as close as you can while working on reacting. This will not only help build reaction but will force interaction giving you more neutral practice
3. Learn your threatening range/tech skill first. Learning how to react with dash, place your character, knowing what options beats what. No point in my opinion of spending too much time on intention when you don't know how to execute. This just ingrains bad habits and slows progress.
4. Record your matches and analyze. Look at areas where you can simplify your movement and look at how your opponents counter. Then expand your intent theory by countering those counters
5. Work on one thing at a time and then expand.
6. Limit the number of dashes to 3. Each dash must have a purpose
7. Be process oriented. When you're playing mindfully and simplifying your game it will surely get worse. If you want to get better you'll first have to get worse
8. If you have netplay I would make clips and post them here to learn more about intent (I am guilty of not doing this)
9. Learn RPS theory. If an opponent wins they normally try to repeat the action. If they lose they normally try to not repeat the action. This sounds simple but gets more complicated when you stack interactions. This is more complicated then people realize.
10. You can never learn enough about intent theory
11. Eat lots of bagels. I theorize bagels were the key to pp's power (Ever noticed when he took a temporary leave from melee he stopped eating bagels? Coincidence I think not)

Besides the rock paper scissors theory, everything else is things pp has suggested as principles to remember. I know its nothing specific but these are really good things to keep in mind and I really think people under-estimate rock paper scissors theory. I know none of these things are specific but worth it even if you didn't know one thing on this list

Edit:if I got something wrong or am missing something please correct me

 

[deft1]

ill definitely do #2 and #4, as for #7, thats what im currently doing right now. i have to temporarily make myself worse so that i can internalize basic concepts and further build upon them; like you said, one thing at a time. ill try and record some netplay clips to post in here so that i can get some more help from you guys, what you have already said is incredibly helpful! #6 is going to be a little hard, but ill do it, as thats what i want to focus on anyway: making my dashes have purpose.

 

[Zorcey]

9. Learn RPS theory. If an opponent wins they normally try to repeat the action. If they lose they normally try to not repeat the action. This sounds simple but gets more complicated when you stack interactions. This is more complicated then people realize.

I don't really like RPS theory as a descriptor for Melee interactions, because as you kinda indicate they're much more complicated than that. In RPS, paper will always beat rock; regardless of when and where you're playing RPS, that rule will always exist. But that logic doesn't apply so cleanly to Melee: everything in the game exists in time and space, meaning when and where options are used is just as important as the options themselves for determining "who wins."
As a simple example of the importance of space, Marth WD Dtilt beats dash back from within TR, but not at TR. For time, Marth SH Rising Fair may beat, go over, or lose to Sheik DA depending on when each character starts their action. Time is also the reason we have cues and reactions in Melee, which together form another point against RPS theory.

So you know that one guy who waits half a second to throw out his hand during RPS to confirm what his opponent is using? That's you playing Melee (or it should be, anyway). Melee interactions aren't like RPS because of the fact that you have the ability to react to your opponent's actions, and build an understanding of what sequences their actions tend to come in, both of these allowing you to "cheat" the RPS system. (For example, many Marths almost always Dtilt out of WD in. Dtilt is itself unreactable at 7 frames (half of average human reaction time), but if you instead react to the WD in, or at least the movement in itself, you may put yourself over the edge of what is possible to react to, giving yourself a massive advantage, because you can react to your opponent while they cannot react to you, meaning if you know what you're doing and have the appropriate tool, you will win the interaction if they WD in Dtilt.) These actions that tend to lead to other actions I like to call "cues" for fairly self-evident reasons. Any action/tool can be a cue (maybe some players always dash back after rolling in from the corner, meaning the roll becomes a cue - so if you confirm the roll too late to punish it directly, you'll still be in plenty of time to punish the dash back), and the main idea is just understanding association between cues and the actions that follow them, allowing you be the dicky guy who holds back that scissors he's going to play until his opponent reveals what he has in mind. This forces the opponent to mix up what they do out of their cues, and then you deepen the game by mixing signals through conditioning your opponent and tricking their responses/reactions.

I mean, yes, there are mixup situations that are truly unreactable and don't give you many cues to work with (positions like in-fighting after low percent trades, or being on the ledge sometimes), but the variables of time and space still exist, meaning there's always context to take into account when picking a mixup option - "what beats what" is a great question, but it's deep enough that it's extremely difficult to answer comprehensively for even one move.

There's other points against RPS theory like conditioning, risk/reward, option coverage, etc., but this is the gist of what I wanted to mention. I feel like my theory writing is too dense, and I'm still struggling to truly learn (implement) these concepts well myself, but that's probably a testament to my current skill level... I've recently started shadowboxing to practice mixing up actions out of my cues, but if anyone has ideas for exercises to practice responding to cues in solo practice, or studying "what beats what" apart from the grind of trial-and-error (doubtful on this), I'd really love to hear them.

 

[ridemyboat]

Hi PPMD, we love you. Do you have any advice for people going bald?

 

[peedy]

Ya melee is more much more complicated.
The purpose of learning rock paper scissors isn't because it is an exact replica of melee but because rps is such a simple yet complicated game that has layers of intent, players habits, opportunitys for you to condition your opponent and risk/reward (though not the type we are accustomed to in melee)

Rock paper scissors theory is not a description of melee but a tool that could help in the broader context of intentionality and conditioning your opponent which I find interesting. You pick rock and your opponent picks paper. Do they switch? Do they stay? Do they read your intent to beat paper and pick rock to beat your scissor? What if they stick with paper and you pick scissors? Now what do they do? What do they do next time they win? Did you condition them to switch from your previous punishment? Maybe the need more conditioning to switch? What if they pick rock 9 times in a row? It seems like the risk and reward is in your favor. Rock paper scissors is way more complicated than most people realize because human interaction is complicated. Maybe it's simple at first but play with someonebut100 times and it becomes a strategy game. The purpose of rps isn't to use it as an analogy for melee but as a way of understanding basic intent theory and conditioning and to notice patterns

Also every situation when you attack your opponent or your opponent attacks you is generally considered unreactable and should be an rps situation which I believe you alluded to.

I think your right though in the sense that rps theory may prevent you from using precious time to learn much more valuable and important concepts but I think the value of rps theory is greater than and more complicated than people percieve

 

[Kotastic]

The main reason why I dislike RPS analogy is because it implies each option has exactly a 1/3 chance of working with equal reward, which is rarely ever true in most interactions. I just think of it as a mixup situation with some regards to risk/reward and threats, and that's about it because trying to think any more than at most 2-3 layers above your opponent is unproductive at our level imo.

https://nmwhittier.wordpress.com/2018/07/26/abusing-rock-paper-scissors/