Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Kotastic]

Nevermind nightmare lost to someone named sillie willie WHY IS MARTH SO INCONSISTANT PP

Because we suck.

In addition to nightmare losing, why not take it as a learning opportunity to see why nightmare lost? I've analyzed M2K vs. Chudat sets like BoBC2 in what not to do lmao.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee okay, so I've been playing with this intention exercise for three days now, and I realized something: idk how to play Melee. Idk how to identify responses to forward and backward movement, idk what the relationship between early and late aerials and spacing is, idk how to space properly around TR and maintain that spacing, idk how to force opponents into respecting my threats, idk how to condition them to respond to stimuli how I want, etc, etc. I'm really, reaaaally bad at this game. Playing in a way where I've forced myself to make decisions without just moving around waiting for my opponents to mess up has also forced me to confront how little I actually understand. Was this the goal?

But anyway, I know the solution to these problems and all the others is to learn how to play, and I really want to learn. I know the best way to learn is to master the basics, so my idea is to go back and start identifying the nature of all Marth's tools and defining them and their properties and where they're useful and not very useful. I've been doing this over the past few days and I feel like I'm getting lots of insight, but ironically when I play everything feels even more gray and fast and chaotic than I've ever seen it before - it really does feel like going backwards in skill.

I think I'm doing it right, but I want to ask because this sort of thing is honestly hard on my confidence. Also just wanted to get any extra PP wisdom you might have.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Zorcey, why would you be hard on yourself if you were never taught any of this and learned in a haphazard way that just got early results? You didn't have a chance to learn!

That said, I do feel bad for you and Kopaka and others who may be feeling this way right now. However it's better to get it done right earlier than wait until you have even more bad habits ingrained later. As you've seen from Kopaka's posts though, when you do get hits and things go right, you'll know why and that'll be very rewarding.

The only extra instruction I'd give is that you should go and really establish TR for every matchup(Marth ditto TR is nearly the size of YS bottom platform btw to give some perspective). If you do that you'll know where to begin once you've really understood your tools better.

Was this the goal? Yes. I hope you will make the most of it =)

 

[lokt]

The only extra instruction I'd give is that you should go and really establish TR for every matchup(Marth ditto TR is nearly the size of YS bottom platform btw to give some perspective). If you do that you'll know where to begin once you've really understood your tools better.

Could you clarify what you mean by establishing TR for each matchup?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but don't marth's approach tools(rc dtilt, dash ac nair, rising fair, grab, wd dtilt) have the same range no matter the matchup? So would your TR be determined by which of these tools you are emphasizing in each matchup?

I guess I've been thinking about spacings to play neutral at, but is spacing and TR the same thing?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Could you clarify what you mean by establishing TR for each matchup?

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something but don't marth's approach tools(rc dtilt, dash ac nair, rising fair, grab, wd dtilt) have the same range no matter the matchup? So would your TR be determined by which of these tools you are emphasizing in each matchup?

I guess I've been thinking about spacings to play neutral at, but is spacing and TR the same thing?

Yes and no. The tools go the same distance and threaten the same distance of course, but in practical terms you also need to know what you'll use. Against Falcon you're far less likely to abuse Dtilt than you are against Marth/Sheik/Peach, so TR will likely shift a little in response to that. Falco obviously you don't Dtilt much either and lasers change a lot so that is different as well.

The other thing about TR is every opponent character has their own TR that you need to establish and play around. So it's yours and your opponents' basically.

 

[Zorcey]

Zorcey, why would you be hard on yourself if you were never taught any of this and learned in a haphazard way that just got early results? You didn't have a chance to learn!

That said, I do feel bad for you and Kopaka and others who may be feeling this way right now. However it's better to get it done right earlier than wait until you have even more bad habits ingrained later. As you've seen from Kopaka's posts though, when you do get hits and things go right, you'll know why and that'll be very rewarding.

The only extra instruction I'd give is that you should go and really establish TR for every matchup(Marth ditto TR is nearly the size of YS bottom platform btw to give some perspective). If you do that you'll know where to begin once you've really understood your tools better.

Was this the goal? Yes. I hope you will make the most of it =)

I guess I'm hard on myself because I have a lot of respect for players like you who somehow learned this game on your own (I know you worked with Cactuar and Umbreon, but still I figure a huge amount of your work was you alone), and I feel with all the free advice I'm getting from someone like you, I don't have any excuses to not push myself as hard as I can.

That said, this was reassuring, and I'm still definitely just as determined to get good. So thanks a lot PP, you're sick.

Quick question about TR: am I right in defining TR as a distance from within threats are unreactable, or is it just the distance from which they reach? I've understood it until now as outfighting generally being reaction based and infighting generally being read based, but idk if that's entirely correct.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I got advice from mid and high level players and thinkers a lot when I started. I was just some country kid lol. That's why I'm on here: I have to give back and give everyone else their fair shot just like I had been given one. The only time I could ever say I worked on my own was after I'd gotten to be a high or top level player. By that point you have so many different perspectives and internalized knowledge you can push it more alone if you want. Trust yourself, and if you can't do that, follow my example and do the work and breathe the game if you want to improve.

TR should be considered in both space and time. It is just a bit farther than their longest ranged threat(for Marth this is often dash WD Dtilt, so just a bit past that point. the reason for the dash is due to DD'ing masking threat and they could boost their range with it, which is also why you go a bit past the full limit of the threat since it can explode quickly from TR). It is the distance where you have time to react and counter, since they could not get to that space with a base attack without being completely confirmed it was happening by you.

 

[AirFair]

I got advice from mid and high level players and thinkers a lot when I started. I was just some country kid lol. That's why I'm on here: I have to give back and give everyone else their fair shot just like I had been given one. The only time I could ever say I worked on my own was after I'd gotten to be a high or top level player. By that point you have so many different perspectives and internalized knowledge you can push it more alone if you want. Trust yourself, and if you can't do that, follow my example and do the work and breathe the game if you want to improve.

you're mad real for this. Thanks <3

 

[Kopaka]

I guess I'm hard on myself because I have a lot of respect for players like you who somehow learned this game on your own (I know you worked with Cactuar and Umbreon, but still I figure a huge amount of your work was you alone), and I feel with all the free advice I'm getting from someone like you, I don't have any excuses to not push myself as hard as I can.

That said, this was reassuring, and I'm still definitely just as determined to get good. So thanks a lot PP, you're sick.

Quick question about TR: am I right in defining TR as a distance from within threats are unreactable, or is it just the distance from which they reach? I've understood it until now as outfighting generally being reaction based and infighting generally being read based, but idk if that's entirely correct.

It's tough. Really really tough! But you've got this man Like I've said before, the reward for getting hits and stocks off now is incredibly rewarding. Sometimes it wasn't even just taking stocks, just simply grabbing my opponent has felt super awesome. And at the same time, getting hit and getting my stocks taken makes a lot more sense now than it did before as opposed to things not making any sense or seeming random to me. Am I winning a bunch of games/tournament sets suddenly? Hardly lol. But for me, just simply observing how my game has changed from being very sporadic, frantic and haphazard has felt like a great accomplishment in and of itself, after about 2-3 years of playing in that way. Plus only now am I really feeling something like the "beginners mentality" thing for real this time.

If there's any advice I can give: At first I forgot about the "fake going in" thing so I was kind of doing 2-3 dashes and then going in and getting hit immediately lol so remember that part

 

[Pook$]

Hey PP. can you elaborate more on the idea of finding the balance of time and space in mapping out character TRs. For me, setting up fox's TR was easy since nair is a low range move and is pretty to easy to see how far he can go. My trouble is when I get to character like Marth and falcon who have moves like marth's dtilt and falcon's nair which are very long range. Obviously it is unrealistic to DD outside of the total range of these moves since dash WD dtilt(marth) and Dash SH nair(falcon) can both cover about half of FD. Is it about finding when they become easy to react to?

 

[Dr Peepee]

No you actually want to DD outside of the range of those moves(though I'd argue that isn't Falcon's TR move). Fox's TR is deceiving since he can dash into it as well as FH or use platforms to attack, so I would not say he is easily solved. Ground to ground(including SH), which most people use, relies on dash a little SH Nair or drill though.

The point is seeing that those ranges cover so much space and that is the default position in matchups, and people fight all close to each other and wonder why they just get hit for no reason. When you don't know where to start you won't know what's going on.

 

[Pook$]

I've been thinking character threatening range (specifically fox's) as static. Like this is where I want to be and act from. So while playing I'll think "I need to be outside of fox's SH nair range." This seems far too simplistic understanding of our positions and options out if these positions. When you talk about fox's it sounds like you think about it more dynamically. Like this is fox's position and this is his threatening range in the position we are in now. Do you set up different threatening ranges for all situations like grounded vs grounded, grounded vs on platform, etc?

 

[Dr Peepee]

In one sense the ranges are static. If you're outside of them you're safe. In another sense Fox especially can confuse your sense of TR with vertical play so you have to also account for TR in positions like grounded vs platform where Fox can now threaten with dash SH Nair/Drill off the platform or FH in as different than on the ground. It can get more complicated than that as well, but just focus on the basic ranges and establish those first.

 

[Kotastic]

No you actually want to DD outside of the range of those moves(though I'd argue that isn't Falcon's TR move). Fox's TR is deceiving since he can dash into it as well as FH or use platforms to attack, so I would not say he is easily solved. Ground to ground(including SH), which most people use, relies on dash a little SH Nair or drill though.

The point is seeing that those ranges cover so much space and that is the default position in matchups, and people fight all close to each other and wonder why they just get hit for no reason. When you don't know where to start you won't know what's going on.

What do you think are Falcon's primary TR moves as opposed to running nair?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Running grab, longer dash SH knee(and maybe stomp in Marth matchup occasionally), maybe side B

 

[maclo4]

How are you supposed to stay outside TR dash dancing on small stages when like you said some chars can threaten basically all of yoshis?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Many matches you don't get to stay there long especially on smaller levels. Your goal instead is to play in a way that doesn't rely as much on reaction/relies more on manipulation as you start a position closer to the opponent.

 

[Pook$]

I feel like we are talking about different things when it comes to the range of these moves. In this set vs $mike (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fAzrOnPvstU) you can see your typical DD range well at 4:28, 5:12, and 6:49. You are spaced outside of the range of dash grab, but if you both stood completely still and falcon did dash SH knee it would definitely hit you. You are also in a range where if, in the game, he tried to SH aerial you would be able to dashback. It seems like marth's ability to dashback and punish moves plays a big role in how useful they are for a character's TR. Am I misinterpreting what is happening in these clips?

 

[Dr Peepee]

In every position you mentioned, we were too close to each other to be in TR, for the exact reason you pointed out. That doesn't mean the position is unplayable obviously, as you've also said, but it means it is not a fully reactable position either. Around 6:51 would be TR.

To say it again, threatening range(TR) is the space where you are safe from the immediate longest + quickest threat of the opponent from hitting you, meaning you have time to react to it. Just because you can counter something if you're kind of far away does not mean you are in TR.

 

[Blatant J]

Whenever Zain has an opponent on the ledge he starts DD, I'm guess it's him looking for a pivot fsmash, do you think it's better for marth to give himself more access to d tilt?

 

[Dr Peepee]

That DD Zain does usually does not work unless you have a specific plan and are decently spaced around their getup option. It's usually better to just work Dtilt against many characters such as in the ditto or against Sheik or Peach.

 

[maclo4]

Many matches you don't get to stay there long especially on smaller levels. Your goal instead is to play in a way that doesn't rely as much on reaction/relies more on manipulation as you start a position closer to the opponent.

Alright so one thing Im not understanding is what the character with the shorter TR is supposed to aim to do. Or where are they supposed to position themselves. Should a fox aim to be outside of marths dash>wd>dtilt range? because then i feel like that puts him in a position where his approach is too short to reach. If fox tries to play in a range where neither char can react in time tho then hes kinda on equal footing in the sense that both players are forced to make a guess. I realize that in game things dont play out neatly most of the time but just on paper what would the char with short TR want to do.

 

[Uma]

After watching Zain vs sfat I have to start using pivot smash to cover neutral di on Upthrow lmao. Maybe it'll stop foxes from using slight di shine to avoid getting cged so much.

 

[clowsui]

Alright so one thing Im not understanding is what the character with the shorter TR is supposed to aim to do. Or where are they supposed to position themselves. Should a fox aim to be outside of marths dash>wd>dtilt range? because then i feel like that puts him in a position where his approach is too short to reach. If fox tries to play in a range where neither char can react in time tho then hes kinda on equal footing in the sense that both players are forced to make a guess. I realize that in game things dont play out neatly most of the time but just on paper what would the char with short TR want to do.

hard to answer this question comprehensively due to how general it is + my understanding of TR is definitely more limited, but fox having less range is compensated by him having more speed + angles of attack. so, using his speed, he can make use of the fact that the opponent has to use different tools to respond to different threats at various points inside/outside TR (FJ nair requires different response than SH nair which requires different response than SH drill which requires different response than running shine etc which changes with percentage + stage positioning + player type) and threaten one tool but pick another ("mixup").

 

[Pook$]

After watching Zain vs sfat I have to start using pivot smash to cover neutral di on Upthrow lmao. Maybe it'll stop foxes from using slight di shine to avoid getting cged so much.

does pivot fsmash cover something that walk forward fsmash doesn't?

 

[UnderTheKnife]

Hey PP,

Long time lurker and rare poster in this thread, but I think that's going to change I, too, have been trying to play with the intention exercises you've put forward and man, it's hard! Do you have any advice on practicing it and honing that (the idea of moving once or twice before making a decision seems great, but I suppose I'm a bit lost as to how to really do that)? Is this something you can only practice in friendlies, or can you practice working on intention solo as well?

I'm at a point in my game where in all honesty, it's pretty one dimensional. Most of my opportunities come from whiff punishing and DD camping as opposed to actively engaging and beating my opponents options, and because of that, I'm at a bit of a plateau. I feel like learning more about intention would really help me get past that, and I'm looking forward to any advice you have to give.

Thank you!!

 

[Uma]

does pivot fsmash cover something that walk forward fsmash doesn't?

The pivot lets you get far enough to tipper

 

[Socrates]

Let's talk about covering spot dodge.

I've heard a lot of commentators and players say that M2K is really good at this and that he "always has the option in mind".

My question is, how can one always cover something that is essentially a mixup? The common answers to spot dodge are nair, DD grab, or just wait. However, the only way for those things to effectively work is to know that, given the opportunity after a missed tech, whiffed arial, etc, that they will spot dodge. Dealing with it feels like a read.

I understand getting spot dodge > grabbed or spot dodge > shined means that you didn't throw out your grab/hitbox quickly enough and they read your commit timing. I'm referring to situations where you CAN'T get there quick enough (tech roll away, miss spacing your DD when they whiff a move)

Is there a way to cover spot dodge while also dealing other threats that come with the opponent having enough time to throw out a hitbox? (I say this because if they have time to spot dodge, I assume they have time to hit you if you're just going to stand there or nair in place)

 

[Blatant J]

After watching Zain vs sfat I have to start using pivot smash to cover neutral di on Upthrow lmao. Maybe it'll stop foxes from using slight di shine to avoid getting cged so much.

You don't have to pivot on neutral di to get a tipper; you can just walk. Also think it's bad to go for everytime since it won't net much if they just di properly (Fsmash can be DI'd on reaction but SFAT played really lazy). At tipper %s you can't actually chaingrab anymore so it's not really applicable to the slight DI problem, slight DI is only good before you can pivot grab.

 

[Uma]

Let's talk about covering spot dodge.

I've heard a lot of commentators and players say that M2K is really good at this and that he "always has the option in mind".

My question is, how can one always cover something that is essentially a mixup? The common answers to spot dodge are nair, DD grab, or just wait. However, the only way for those things to effectively work is to know that, given the opportunity after a missed tech, whiffed arial, etc, that they will spot dodge. Dealing with it feels like a read.

I understand getting spot dodge > grabbed or spot dodge > shined means that you didn't throw out your grab/hitbox quickly enough and they read your commit timing. I'm referring to situations where you CAN'T get there quick enough (tech roll away, miss spacing your DD when they whiff a move)

Is there a way to cover spot dodge while also dealing other threats that come with the opponent having enough time to throw out a hitbox? (I say this because if they have time to spot dodge, I assume they have time to hit you if you're just going to stand there or nair in place)

If I know I'm gonna be too late to punish their spot dodge or getup like on a tech away I try not to over commit. You can take stage control and wait to see what they do, or you can put your self at a space to poke them with iasa dtilts or spaced fairs. But tbh I don't find myself in the position where I can't get to them to punish their spot dodge in time very often because Marth is fast as hell and has huge hitboxes

 

[Uma]

You don't have to pivot on neutral di to get a tipper; you can just walk. Also think it's bad to go for everytime since it won't net much if they just di properly (Fsmash can be DI'd on reaction but SFAT played really lazy). At tipper %s you can't actually chaingrab anymore so it's not really applicable to the slight DI problem, slight DI is only good before you can pivot grab.

Okay thanks, so was I just confused and he wasn't pivoting or is he just making it harder on himself

 

[Blatant J]

Okay thanks, so was I just confused and he wasn't pivoting or is he just making it harder on himself

Perhaps he dashes preemptively incase they di away ( I'm pretty sure u can just do this on reaction tho) or maybe it's just the MD/VA swag kicking in. It is harder to know what side he will tipper on but you can just hold up and live unless it's a small stage near the ledge.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Alright so one thing Im not understanding is what the character with the shorter TR is supposed to aim to do. Or where are they supposed to position themselves. Should a fox aim to be outside of marths dash>wd>dtilt range? because then i feel like that puts him in a position where his approach is too short to reach. If fox tries to play in a range where neither char can react in time tho then hes kinda on equal footing in the sense that both players are forced to make a guess. I realize that in game things dont play out neatly most of the time but just on paper what would the char with short TR want to do.

Good question!

Well Marth's TR is pretty balanced in that, while it is the longest TR, it is also the slowest. This means he must be pretty selective in enforcing his TR as well as how he stops others from coming in/how he pushes the TR into the opponent. Fox, if we assumed ground/SH Fox like modern meta, would be much shorter in terms of TR but also be much faster. Still, he should respect Marth's longest tools such as dash WD Dtilt so he should stay outside of Marth's range. One easy solution to this situation is Fox can laser and this will bring Marth closer to Fox's own TR, but it does leave the possibility of Fox getting manipulated open, and regardless can't be an entire strategy even if it is good. To actually play the position however, Fox should abuse his speed(character trait) and not his range. This means Fox should push slightly into Marth's TR and cause it to overlap with his own as much as possible. Furthermore, Fox can control Marth's Dtilt threat by jumping if Marth ever gets close(SH Drill/Nair in or FH to whatever). This means Marth can't really threaten with Dtilt alone and would need to use other moves like running rising Fair to catch jumps. This opens up Fox's ground movement again. Now that this basic mixup is established, let's talk about something Fox players do that can also trip up Marths using speed. They can do the SH in pullback Drill or Nair. This is meant to make Marth stop full committing, and covers his Dtilt approach as well. This would make Marth not be able to effectively push all the way in at once when he's moving forward and he would have to stagger his approach(move in some and then the rest of the way after confirming Fox didn't do that Dtilt cover). Staggering his approach means he has to spend some time in Fox's TR and this benefits Fox since his moves are faster and no longer necessarily has a range disadvantage.

I can go on about this but the short summary is that you abuse your other character traits to make the most of it. It's like how Axe's Pikachu abuses speedy attacks and movement to get inside Marth's TR.

Also a final note: It's actually way more complicated than this when considering Fox. I can explain why, but basically Fox loses ground/SH to ground/SH with Marth. If Fox uses FH to approach and/or platforms to also fight, then Fox's TR branches in more ways and can effectively reach like Marth's does. That is what makes the matchup even in neutral in my opinion.

After watching Zain vs sfat I have to start using pivot smash to cover neutral di on Upthrow lmao. Maybe it'll stop foxes from using slight di shine to avoid getting cged so much.

LOL I forgot to respond to this.

Like some people said you can walk to get the tipper, but you can mix rising Fair vs Fsmash out of dash which is a pretty sick 50/50.

Hey PP,

Long time lurker and rare poster in this thread, but I think that's going to change I, too, have been trying to play with the intention exercises you've put forward and man, it's hard! Do you have any advice on practicing it and honing that (the idea of moving once or twice before making a decision seems great, but I suppose I'm a bit lost as to how to really do that)? Is this something you can only practice in friendlies, or can you practice working on intention solo as well?

I'm at a point in my game where in all honesty, it's pretty one dimensional. Most of my opportunities come from whiff punishing and DD camping as opposed to actively engaging and beating my opponents options, and because of that, I'm at a bit of a plateau. I feel like learning more about intention would really help me get past that, and I'm looking forward to any advice you have to give.

Thank you!!

Hope to see you post more! I need to get better at teaching this so it will help us both =)

There are two things I think we need to establish before I can explain how to practice intent(besides the purpose of each tool):

1. Threatening Range. I've been talking about that plenty, so I'm not going into that again just scroll up. You need to know where to start and various positions in or out of that starting place or you won't know what you're doing.

2. What do you want to do? Some people want to play safe, some people want to go in but aren't sure how, some want to balance offense and defense, and so on. None of these preferences are wrong or right(but certain characters can reward one way more). However, if you want to go in a lot, then you'd want to find ways to establish your biggest threats quickly(using forward movement primarily) and then figure out opponent responses(or possible responses) and go from there. If in the ditto you dash in and the opponent dashes away most of the time, you know you can keep pushing in at least a little. If they push back in response, then you need to make a decision quickly(and since you're skewing aggressive you'd likely want to attack first here to stay ahead of the situation).

If you take these together, you get simple actions. Gathering information? Dash in WD back for information and to keep yourself safe(Sheiks and Peaches do this a lot for example). Mango often does dash back before going in to make the opponent think he wants to play safe and then tricks them(playing off of defensive movement but at closer range where it's harder to react). You can double dash forward for obvious reasons like I mentioned in point 2, and so on. And this is with more than dashing. You can dash back and pivot Fair to zone, and that is still an important sequence of actions. It gives extra weight to your dash back and establishes your space, as you moved away pretty far then put out a very big move. You can use that dash back later to move forward more, since your opponent is thinking about the Fair in place when they see dash back now.

That's really the big thing. You're playing on your opponent's memory, or what you force them to remember. So you can build everything by thinking about what they might think when you do actions. You get ideas for this from your own matches and from videos. You don't need to watch pros for this you just need a few ideas and then you need to sit down and practice them so you'll do them in matches. Then you play and see how it feels. It's pretty simple science =p

Let's talk about covering spot dodge.

I've heard a lot of commentators and players say that M2K is really good at this and that he "always has the option in mind".

My question is, how can one always cover something that is essentially a mixup? The common answers to spot dodge are nair, DD grab, or just wait. However, the only way for those things to effectively work is to know that, given the opportunity after a missed tech, whiffed arial, etc, that they will spot dodge. Dealing with it feels like a read.

I understand getting spot dodge > grabbed or spot dodge > shined means that you didn't throw out your grab/hitbox quickly enough and they read your commit timing. I'm referring to situations where you CAN'T get there quick enough (tech roll away, miss spacing your DD when they whiff a move)

Is there a way to cover spot dodge while also dealing other threats that come with the opponent having enough time to throw out a hitbox? (I say this because if they have time to spot dodge, I assume they have time to hit you if you're just going to stand there or nair in place)

Yeah M2K is basically just looking for spotdodge always. People can roll out or hit him if they want unless he's memorized what they will do.

You can control this more by jumping in place or spacing at tipper Fsmash range. You can Fair/Uair/Dair at different spacings and get rewarded(at least with pressure) if you're right and Fair will keep you safe if you're wrong and they move away if you're wrong. You can also stand at tipper range and then they might be holding down during spotdodge so their DI will not be good on Fsmash, and you'll be pretty far so if they roll in or sometimes attack in you can react decently since you'll just be standing still.

There are other ways to do manipulation and coverage using grab threats and movement too but those are just some simple things to do vs players who might spotdodge or not while keeping you safer and potentially giving more reward.

 

[UnderTheKnife]

Hope to see you post more! I need to get better at teaching this so it will help us both =)

There are two things I think we need to establish before I can explain how to practice intent(besides the purpose of each tool):

1. Threatening Range. I've been talking about that plenty, so I'm not going into that again just scroll up. You need to know where to start and various positions in or out of that starting place or you won't know what you're doing.

2. What do you want to do? Some people want to play safe, some people want to go in but aren't sure how, some want to balance offense and defense, and so on. None of these preferences are wrong or right(but certain characters can reward one way more). However, if you want to go in a lot, then you'd want to find ways to establish your biggest threats quickly(using forward movement primarily) and then figure out opponent responses(or possible responses) and go from there. If in the ditto you dash in and the opponent dashes away most of the time, you know you can keep pushing in at least a little. If they push back in response, then you need to make a decision quickly(and since you're skewing aggressive you'd likely want to attack first here to stay ahead of the situation).

If you take these together, you get simple actions. Gathering information? Dash in WD back for information and to keep yourself safe(Sheiks and Peaches do this a lot for example). Mango often does dash back before going in to make the opponent think he wants to play safe and then tricks them(playing off of defensive movement but at closer range where it's harder to react). You can double dash forward for obvious reasons like I mentioned in point 2, and so on. And this is with more than dashing. You can dash back and pivot Fair to zone, and that is still an important sequence of actions. It gives extra weight to your dash back and establishes your space, as you moved away pretty far then put out a very big move. You can use that dash back later to move forward more, since your opponent is thinking about the Fair in place when they see dash back now.

That's really the big thing. You're playing on your opponent's memory, or what you force them to remember. So you can build everything by thinking about what they might think when you do actions. You get ideas for this from your own matches and from videos. You don't need to watch pros for this you just need a few ideas and then you need to sit down and practice them so you'll do them in matches. Then you play and see how it feels. It's pretty simple science =p

Thank you so much for responding PP, I've noticed you've been super active on the boards, especially lately, and I think everyone here appreciates it a ton <3

1. To be clear, TR is positioning yourself just outside of the range of the opponents most threatening/longest reaching attack, correct? If I've got the right idea no need to explain it further

2. This is actually a great question, and one I've never asked myself while playing. Should I be focusing on what I want to accomplish or what my opponent wants to accomplish? In game, I'm always asking about what they might want to do, and how I would/could/should respond. My "style" (if you want to call it that LOL) is super reactive and I'm not very proactive at all, I'm too busy trying to discern my opponents intentions and options to think of my own and how I'd like them to act. I feel like I have a very flawed understanding of TR, and apply it in a way that I just kinda DD outside of my opponents range and wait for them to do something as the basis of my neutral, which loses heartily to aggressive play and makes match ups where dash dancing is less important very difficult for me.

That all seems super difficult to keep track of and learn, but of course.....I'm willing to work I've read that you don't think all that much when you play and just give yourself tiny, one word mental instructions - how do you reconcile this lack of thought with keeping track of so many things? Any advice for doing this in real time?

I'm super dense, so if you could walk me through this that'd be super helpful LOL. I watch some PP videos, read this thread, get super jazzed on intention and learning and want to practice that and improve. I sit down, turn on melee, and...then what?

I know this is a big ol wall of text so feel free to answer or not answer anything as you please

 

[Dr Peepee]

1. It's being outside of their quickest + longest attack + their quickest movement to put it forward. So yeah

2. Yeah most people do what you do, they just wait outside of TR or at the edge of it then back up and catch approaches. Simple baits and just waiting someone out like that really dismantle this type of play. Now I don't really care if people want to play defensively, but you shouldn't do it by default, you know? You should do it purposefully where you think about how to bring them into you and how to mix in offense to make your defense stronger, etc.

Basically ask yourself: how do I want to play? If you can't answer that, then "how do I think this character should be played?" works as well.

Afterward, begin thinking about your tools. What does a Dtilt do? You may say it covers the ground and is quick. What does a Fair do? How do these two work together? What about working together with Marth dash? Wavedash?

Then when you've done all of that you can start simply putting actions together. The goal isn't to cover every possible option(no opponent uses every option or even half of them, myself included...there are just too many!). The goal is to figure out which ones you want to use and which you want your opponent to use, and then how to make your opponent do what you want.

For practice, just do wavedashes over and over and think about why it's important as you do it. Really connect with the tool. If you do this correctly, wavedash becomes something bigger than a wavedash and takes on a new meaning. Then you can apply that deeper meaning to your other tools. You can do this with all of them individually and then slowly put them together. As you do this, you'll begin having a couple strings of actions you'll understand decently how the tools work together. That's when you really begin building your gameplan, but it does take time. In the meantime when you play matches, just keep it really simple and when you feel yourself spamming DD, force yourself to do something, ANYTHING after 1-2 dashes. You'll learn a lot more that way.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

In a recent tournament set that I played vs a Fox, I was in a situation where I had the Fox off-stage and he was Up-B'ing. I hit him with a fair (not tippered), but he DIs the fair to make it look like I could connect an up-b and make it back to the ledge, but I barely whiffed the up-b and he was able to grab the ledge before me, resulting in me essentially SDing. I was unfamiliar with this situation before. I'm not sure if I could have drifted a little more to actually connect the up-b, or if it was better to just recognize that he is now too far from the ledge to land on stage from his up-b and I should just aim to grab the ledge before him. Should I be trying to go for this up-b edgeguard kill more often? Or should I just retreat to ledge more often to avoid potentially SDing?

A separate question on neutral against fast characters: I often see top Marths try to do multiple side-b hits when in neutral on a player's shield, I don't feel like these are particularly safe, as I feel the intention to do them is to poke shield, which it seems like it rarely does. But would doing a single-hit or even the first two hits of side-b in neutral to catch an opponent jumping or to establish a lot of space be beneficial? Would jab be a better way to disrupt the opponent? I'm trying to think of other grounded options that cover both the ground and the air and don't have a ton of ending lag like fsmash does.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You needed to tipper the Fair since Fox was at low percent it sounds like. Also if Fox is too far above you when you Fair him it won't work anyway. It does work fine though even against SDI pretty sure(I'll test it eventually) Any more info I'd need to see it happen myself.

On shield isn't in neutral. That said, side B is extremely unsafe on shield unless it's spaced, so most of the time when you see extra hits it's to catch the opponent acting OOS to punish the first/second hit.

I use side B a decent amount in neutral against Falco when I'm kind of close to disrupt his laser and sometimes Nair if I'm spaced well. Since Falco isn't going to crouch near Marth much I get to kind of spam it sometimes. Besides that, side B's weak follows, small range, and ease of crouching against it don't make it a preferable tool in neutral. Jab is better since it's bigger and can tipper plus it pushes the opponent away, but it has even worse followups than side B. Marth doesn't really do ground to ground besides Dtilt and Fsmash though imo. Fsmash covering the ground and SH space is honestly pretty strong since it's big as well, you just can't spam it and need to be sure you have an idea when it will or won't work.

 

[Taytertot]

So since reading The Inner Game of Tennis, ive noticed that theres a lot of stuff that i thought i didnt know how to apply very well or felt i didnt have a good grasp of that i can actually do decently well (assuming of course that i can keep myself focused and present). Things like mixing people up and deciding when and where to spacing things in neutral seem to come much more naturally. This of course has lead me to question why these ideas seemed so vast and intangible to mentally approach. I realized, or at least i feel that the reason i had so much trouble is because i tried to have my conscious mind break it all down into something easy to digest when in reality it appears that if i just trust that i'll know what to do and attempt to have my mind clear when i play that it just kinda happens naturally. This makes me wonder if me being more inherently a thinker, was a hindrance to developing a better neutral game and having better awareness of my opponent and what they want to do.

As a side note and a question to you, Dr Peepee the thing ive been noticing as an issue for me since reading this book is that when im in bracket (instead of playing friendlies) im finding it hard to steer my motives for playing away from wanting to win and when i want to win i simultaneously am afraid of losing or at least afraid of playing poorly. changing my reasoning for playing the game to the simple delight of the challenge itself seems like the best direction to go in if i want to keep my ego out of a bracket match, but its difficult for me to throw away my desire to win. Any advice or thoughts?

 

[Dr Peepee]

There are two main ways of addressing your concern I think. The first is that playing to win is fine, but you need to minimize that fear of losing. You do this by training your mind to focus on the win, visualizing it and thinking about how great it will be. You train hard for it and don't lose sight of it to make those visions a reality. Eventually you condition the fear of losing away and only drive is left.

The other way is to focus on the win some but to heighten the focus of the enjoyment of the game above all. You'd do this by returning to a beginner's mindset, or the time when you started playing the game. Learning was fun and losing didn't matter because you had no real expectations. You were just starting after all. Thinking about the range of possibilities and how flexible you were with learning, you have to recapture that for yourself and put yourself back in that place. For me personally I could also ask myself "if I wanted to think like a new player, I would-" and use that sentence starter to generate the ideas and feelings I used to have.

Which way is better may depend on the person and their learning style. I imagine there are other ways too but those two seem to be the most consistent I notice across different disciplines.

 

[Ukulele]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gA_WgELT814

:0