Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Aksorz1336]

Ken just did a tutorial on Dancing Blade for SSBMT, which made me wonder if there's any place for Dancing Blade as an offensive move in modern Marth meta (except for "the floatie killer" setup)? 3rd horizontal hit is pretty strong as a killing move, right? But does the 1st hit even lead into the 2nd and 3rd hit guaranteed on any char or % (already assuming not shielding or CC)?

 

[Taytertot]

So ive got two questions that ive been curious about, and while i do have some thoughts of my own regarding them id like to hear other opinions.

Regarding The Inner Game of Tennis again, should i be relying on self 2 to try to pick up on player habits/playstyle choices or is that one of the few things that i should be dedicating self 1's energy to during a match? I feel as though, based on the book, that i wouldn't want self 1 to be involved at all but i dont know if self 2s play considers habits and playstyle of my opponent.

My second question is about the relationship between threat zones and reaction time. If Im playing against a character who can threaten a larger area then me, how do i setup situations in which he cant react to me without having put myself at risk of a potential attack? If i cant setup situations in which my approaches are unreactable without first being in a position where my opponents options are unreactable then should i be attempting to build my strategies mostly around baiting my opponent to come in so i can counter attack? I know this question doesnt entirely relate to marth because his threat range is massive (though one might argue that fox can threaten a larger amount of space due to his mobility) but im still curious to hear other thoughts on this mental dilemma ive been having.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ken just did a tutorial on Dancing Blade for SSBMT, which made me wonder if there's any place for Dancing Blade as an offensive move in modern Marth meta (except for "the floatie killer" setup)? 3rd horizontal hit is pretty strong as a killing move, right? But does the 1st hit even lead into the 2nd and 3rd hit guaranteed on any char or % (already assuming not shielding or CC)?

Yeah there is potential, but the move is kind of gimmicky in that you can (A)SDI out of it kind of easily and also hold down vs the first two hits for a very long time. Catching people out of the air with the move is good since the opponent usually has to burn a jump or risk getting hit/fair'd again. If you just show the first hit or two in neutral sometimes, I experimented with doing the third if they attacked and it worked alright so there is something there.

So ive got two questions that ive been curious about, and while i do have some thoughts of my own regarding them id like to hear other opinions.

Regarding The Inner Game of Tennis again, should i be relying on self 2 to try to pick up on player habits/playstyle choices or is that one of the few things that i should be dedicating self 1's energy to during a match? I feel as though, based on the book, that i wouldn't want self 1 to be involved at all but i dont know if self 2s play considers habits and playstyle of my opponent.

My second question is about the relationship between threat zones and reaction time. If Im playing against a character who can threaten a larger area then me, how do i setup situations in which he cant react to me without having put myself at risk of a potential attack? If i cant setup situations in which my approaches are unreactable without first being in a position where my opponents options are unreactable then should i be attempting to build my strategies mostly around baiting my opponent to come in so i can counter attack? I know this question doesnt entirely relate to marth because his threat range is massive (though one might argue that fox can threaten a larger amount of space due to his mobility) but im still curious to hear other thoughts on this mental dilemma ive been having.

You want your built in understanding in self 2 to take that in. Self 1 focuses on their movements but doesn't try to interpret them. Self 2 takes the info and helps you automatically adjust. If you haven't trained yourself to observe and adjust with your movements, you'll be spending your time between stocks/games trying to remember what happened and adjusting there. This isn't necessarily bad, but it would make your adaptation slower of course. Adaptation is like a muscle though you have to train it so that's alright.

 

[Kotastic]

Regarding optimizing my combo game on Fox on stages besides FD, I've been exploring different options when Fox is below 20%, as tipper unstaled up-air doesn't knock down until that percentage. I know Leffen is a proponent of doing BnB platforms at all times instead of tech chasing and for the most I agree, but I simply don't see it below 20%. Marth has to be at the perfect position to turn-around up-tilt (the only move that knocks down and potentially start up a combo string) to get the 50/50 when throwing Fox up at the platform, so there's that. I don't like the concept of only having a 50% chance of punishing Fox off my up-throw, and it has costs me games where I gambled that and got nothing out of it. Seeing your past videos PP, you would sometimes opt to nair as it knocks down, but it woudn't lead to huge combo strings like an up-air would past 20%. I know platform waveland grab is an option, but at top level it seems like all the Foxes react to it, as Zain has tried this against Leffen and SFAT and they would shield drop aerial to stuff out Zain's grab. It can be a mixup with an aerial instead of grabbing, but again it does not lead to huge follow-ups. Correct me if I'm wrong in any of these.

What I plan to implement instead is to corner tech chase. If I get grab in the center of the stage, then I'd opt for CG until I get closer to the edge. Once I'm at the edge, I throw them at the edge. I can reasonably react to tech in and away and simply grab. If they tech in, I throw them to the edge again and rack up damage. If tech out, I can potentially get a gimp. No/In-place tech I'm still somewhat exploring what to do as I cannot expect myself to react to Fox tech in place shine/spotdodge at this time, nor can I react to Fox's get-up options and jab knocks up too far (?). So I simply observe what the Fox does and pressure them with d-tilt. Once Fox reaches past 20% then I definitely up-throw no matter what. I think I will find greater success with my punish game using this method, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Regarding optimizing my combo game on Fox on stages besides FD, I've been exploring different options when Fox is below 20%, as tipper unstaled up-air doesn't knock down until that percentage. I know Leffen is a proponent of doing BnB platforms at all times instead of tech chasing and for the most I agree, but I simply don't see it below 20%. Marth has to be at the perfect position to turn-around up-tilt (the only move that knocks down and potentially start up a combo string) to get the 50/50 when throwing Fox up at the platform, so there's that. I don't like the concept of only having a 50% chance of punishing Fox off my up-throw, and it has costs me games where I gambled that and got nothing out of it. Seeing your past videos PP, you would sometimes opt to nair as it knocks down, but it woudn't lead to huge combo strings like an up-air would past 20%. I know platform waveland grab is an option, but at top level it seems like all the Foxes react to it, as Zain has tried this against Leffen and SFAT and they would shield drop aerial to stuff out Zain's grab. It can be a mixup with an aerial instead of grabbing, but again it does not lead to huge follow-ups. Correct me if I'm wrong in any of these.

What I plan to implement instead is to corner tech chase. If I get grab in the center of the stage, then I'd opt for CG until I get closer to the edge. Once I'm at the edge, I throw them at the edge. I can reasonably react to tech in and away and simply grab. If they tech in, I throw them to the edge again and rack up damage. If tech out, I can potentially get a gimp. No/In-place tech I'm still somewhat exploring what to do as I cannot expect myself to react to Fox tech in place shine/spotdodge at this time, nor can I react to Fox's get-up options and jab knocks up too far (?). So I simply observe what the Fox does and pressure them with d-tilt. Once Fox reaches past 20% then I definitely up-throw no matter what. I think I will find greater success with my punish game using this method, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

I respect Leffen a lot, but please don't listen to him about Marth. He does not think clearly about the character.

Tech chase is completely viable against spacies(among other matchups), especially under the percents where you can't really get anything off of platform followups on BF/DL(but sometimes other platform stages) without luck/reading them completely with no chance to influence them.

You're right that FH waveland will not work at many percents, especially if the percent is low and/or the Fox techs in place. This is why I like SH Uair the tech in place and DJ waveland grab tech rolls. On tech roll in it's pretty hard to get punishes though so it's not perfect, and teching in place close to the edge they could also conceivably slideoff vs Uair, so it's not a perfect system. I also need to test throws from the closer to middle of the stage on platforms but I have some ideas.
Regardless of all of this, the Nair will give followups on YS/FoD at least but it's not a direct combo just sometimes a tipper Fsmash sometimes you react to their jump with Fair, but that's still really good since you can kill off of it. On DL it's not worth it and on BF it's occasionally worth it. Having Utilt vs Fsmash as a mixup really helps, and having Fsmash really discourage them holding down helps you out a lot. Even if they hold in on Fsmash they will still be offstage with a chance of an edgeguard(admittedly a tough one but it is possible). And if you Utilt instead of Fsmash after establishing that threat then they should take a ton of damage at minimum from that. AND if you're building percent above like 22%~(varies by stage) before throw with inescapable tech chasing then it should be giving you ample time to position yourself. Going at 20% on DL you don't have enough time to do much, BF is similar iirc.

But yeah without getting farther into detail by stage etc I figure I should stop there.

 

[Kotastic]

In the Marth mirror, I've been critiqued by my opponents that more often than not, I'm usually the one that engages, whether it'd be with d-tilt or an aerial to counteract their d-tilt. They say that I'm more of a read-based Marth (for what it's worth), calling out their tech patterns, jumps, and how they land.

My question is that is it usually good to engage Marth first? I usually like initiating with d-tilt, but very often I either get d-tilted back, aerialed, or I get shield grabbed. Is there a certain distance for d-tilt that I can take advantage of the IASA frames to dodge the grab? I think theoretically regarding frame data (D-tilt comes out at frame 7, IASA frame: 20, and shield grabbing is 7, non-tipper d-tilt does like 8%?), d-tilt is unsafe by -2? Regarding getting d-tilted back, should I just take it and make it a tug-of-war d-tilt until I read when they jump? From my experience from jumping, I usually get f-smashed. I usually do the same, especially if the Marth is cornered, as I call out their jump with my f-smash. Do you think there's better options to call out Marth's jump other than a risky f-smash? Also because I'm the kind of Marth that engages first, I've been considering Yoshi's as my primary counterpick, even though I hate the small nature of the stage. Previously it's been FD, but I feel like other Marths quite frankly control larger stage better than me and they juggle me harder. Is it a matter of getting better on FD, or do you think Yoshi's would fit how I approach the matchup currently?

Also, my ledge options would be....
-Basic get-up/roll (I want to phase these out because I feel like they're too weak of options tbh, and relies on Marth tunnel visioning and reacting late)
-Late fair (to counteract wavedash back d-tilt/f-smash)
-Nair (if they're close and they like spamming d-tilt near the edge)
-Waveland (if they're relatively far away from the ledge)
-Counter (replaces Nair if Marth can CC nair).
-NIL Shield (if I don't have a read what Marth would do, this is my new go-to)
Any thoughts on these and what I should modify?

To get a better idea of how I play in video, here's a set between me and Kopaka. https://youtu.be/jRCPOkx_vko?t=2m29s (You don't have to critique/watch if you don't feel like it)

 

[Kopaka]

Ugh I'd rather no one watch that set T_T Sorry, I cant stand watching myself play so bad outside of doing it for analysis-sake. But whatever, it's fine lol

Honestly since I play you a lot and I want this post to have more worth than only posting my selfishness, I'll give you some stuff that may/may not help. Pardon the possible rashness of this since I'm tired and I had a long day at work

It kind of feels like I have to explain the whole game to you based on what you wrote, but there's basically no "either or" answer to what you should or should not be doing, not even just in the ditto but in Melee in general. Well, okay there IS but you learn a lot of that through experience and trial and error and then doing the things that you shouldn't be doing in places where you COULD do them. Which again comes with experience.

A lot of what I do in the game is very intuitive to me at this point so this advice is probably terrible, but play a lot of Melee. Play a TON of Melee. It's great you have questions and stuff and that's highly encouraged, and you don't seem like you're giving up or anything mentality wise so that's great. I would credit a lot of my improvement to going out and just playing tons and tons and tons of Melee, and taking it seriously. I was very confused during this period and a lot of times nothing made sense but I just kept at it.

I was not a fan of the dreamland counter pick like I told you after the set because I felt you gave me wayyyy way wayyy too much room to breathe and you were not hitting me as hard. I had to get comfortable on smaller stages too so I guess that just comes with experience. Counterpicks are counter picks. why are you taking me there? what happened last game that makes you want to take me there? Do you know why you lost last game? Would a smaller/bigger stage help? etc etc.

It's super obvious you want to learn a bunch so keep at it. Just play a ton and keep asking questions but honestly, try simplifying it. Try asking yourself questions too. I gained a completely new relationship with the game once I decided what it is I want in my play. At first I picked "Simplicity" and right now it's "Fighting back".

 

[Kotastic]

Ugh I'd rather no one watch that set T_T Sorry, I cant stand watching myself play so bad outside of doing it for analysis-sake. But whatever, it's fine lol

I've had a more embarrassing Marth mirror set in the very same channel where I was playing my worst.

No we didn't roy-zone grab each other like 4 times in a row.

 

[Kopaka]

I've had a more embarrassing Marth mirror set in the very same channel where I was playing my worst.

No we didn't roy-zone grab each other like 4 times in a row.

i donnu if you get notifications for edits but i felt bad leaving my post at that so i wrote some more stuff for you

 

[lokt]

Dr.pp, lately I've been wondering about a certain stylistic choice that marth players make when they have frame advantage, but no true punishes(for example a spacie landing at a range where he can spotdodge grab).

I've been watching druggedfox's marth analysis and he seems to be a big fan of pressuring opponents with nair/fair, whereas you tend to wait out the immediate option that the opponent does before acting.

What are some negatives to waiting out the opponent's next option?

 

[Dr Peepee]

In the Marth mirror, I've been critiqued by my opponents that more often than not, I'm usually the one that engages, whether it'd be with d-tilt or an aerial to counteract their d-tilt. They say that I'm more of a read-based Marth (for what it's worth), calling out their tech patterns, jumps, and how they land.

My question is that is it usually good to engage Marth first? I usually like initiating with d-tilt, but very often I either get d-tilted back, aerialed, or I get shield grabbed. Is there a certain distance for d-tilt that I can take advantage of the IASA frames to dodge the grab? I think theoretically regarding frame data (D-tilt comes out at frame 7, IASA frame: 20, and shield grabbing is 7, non-tipper d-tilt does like 8%?), d-tilt is unsafe by -2? Regarding getting d-tilted back, should I just take it and make it a tug-of-war d-tilt until I read when they jump? From my experience from jumping, I usually get f-smashed. I usually do the same, especially if the Marth is cornered, as I call out their jump with my f-smash. Do you think there's better options to call out Marth's jump other than a risky f-smash? Also because I'm the kind of Marth that engages first, I've been considering Yoshi's as my primary counterpick, even though I hate the small nature of the stage. Previously it's been FD, but I feel like other Marths quite frankly control larger stage better than me and they juggle me harder. Is it a matter of getting better on FD, or do you think Yoshi's would fit how I approach the matchup currently?

Also, my ledge options would be....
-Basic get-up/roll (I want to phase these out because I feel like they're too weak of options tbh, and relies on Marth tunnel visioning and reacting late)
-Late fair (to counteract wavedash back d-tilt/f-smash)
-Nair (if they're close and they like spamming d-tilt near the edge)
-Waveland (if they're relatively far away from the ledge)
-Counter (replaces Nair if Marth can CC nair).
-NIL Shield (if I don't have a read what Marth would do, this is my new go-to)
Any thoughts on these and what I should modify?

To get a better idea of how I play in video, here's a set between me and Kopaka. https://youtu.be/jRCPOkx_vko?t=2m29s (You don't have to critique/watch if you don't feel like it)

Engaging first is fine.

If you tipper Dtilt you shouldn't be getting Dtilted back, and if it's possible to happen you can usually dash away/jump after Dtilt to avoid it iirc. If you get aerialed you just got outplayed so you need to approach with an aerial, or bait that with forward movement as if you'd Dtilt then punish their aerial. You can always dash away after Dtilting shield and can't be shield grabbed(unless shield DI somehow changes this, but due to Marth hurtbox distortion on dash I don't think it does). You can pivot tipper out of that dash away too which is pretty strong.

If the other Marth jumps first, you can Ftilt/Fsmash/Fair them. Fair is easiest to react with and gives best combo opportunities.
If you like going in, why would you dislike the size of YS? Is it for when you're off balance?

I think edge stand and roll are alright sometimes tbh.

They can hold down and shield first hit of Nair and grab you after the second hit, maybe before second hit I forget.

NIL Fsmash/nothing are both really good options, as well as haxdash.

If you have a specific situation in the videos you want me to look at just tell me/timestamp it and I'll check it.

Dr.pp, lately I've been wondering about a certain stylistic choice that marth players make when they have frame advantage, but no true punishes(for example a spacie landing at a range where he can spotdodge grab).

I've been watching druggedfox's marth analysis and he seems to be a big fan of pressuring opponents with nair/fair, whereas you tend to wait out the immediate option that the opponent does before acting.

What are some negatives to waiting out the opponent's next option?

Waiting loses if they just keep running in after they could spotdodge, and also if they run away you lose advantage(though I'd argue they'd lose advantage if they tried to Fair/Nair too). I guess if Fox just landed and did nothing then hit you, you could also lose because you didn't do anything to control space and were off balance from the strange Fox option at close range you didn't expect.

 

[Blatant J]

Is it possible to play the ground game too much vs fox? I pretty much never jump unless they are already in the air/on a platform, and I find myself being hit by overshot nairs a lot.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah it's perfectly fine to zone/protect yourself with Nair/especially Fair against Fox. You can CC/dash under overshot Nair as well, so don't always dash away when Fox gets near you.

 

[Kotastic]

Thank you for your advice as always PP. Here's some timestamps where I have a couple questions

https://youtu.be/jRCPOkx_vko?t=3m35s - here I d-tilt very close to his shield. I can dash in to avoid the grab? Part of the reason I lose this matchup a lot is because my d-tilt often gets shield grabbed. If that's not the case, this changes a lot lol. Does this also apply to other matchups where run-up shield is common like Peach/Sheik?

Aside from that, I can clearly see how I got outplayed in many situations that are clearer to me. To grind it out it is...

Also I didn't like YS as I had bad memories as a scrub Marth main getting out-janked in that stage by f-smashes lolol. But with a clearer style on how I currently approach the matchup, and that I generally have a better combo game revolving platforms, I think YS and FoD would be my new go-to (most Marths I play strike to BF).

Also, I like using nair if they're hanging close by the ledge, threatening d-tilt or f-smash. Since there's very clear counterplay if they hold down against the first hit, would you recommend doing the Mew2King style of camping tipper fair by the ledge?

 

[Dr Peepee]

No you dash away, not in. Though maybe since you were so close I guess it's possible you could dash through? I know away works at least. And yeah it applies to every matchup.

Yeah the Fair/Dtilt at the edge are both pretty good, especially the Dtilt since it's easy to just sit there holding down to cover anything moving in.

 

[Uma]

I really shouldn't try to get thoughtful and post here when I'm inebriated anymore... (my falco lasted 3 4 days)
Is it safe to form your punish game around tech chasing against Sheik/Falcon/Ganon? Does doing so affect stage selection versus them? Is there ever a time you would want to upthrow sheik when there is no platform above you at low percents? Thanks

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sheik iirc it's kind of okay but not as guaranteed. Falcon and Ganon absolutely yes. I don't think it affects stage selection at all, or at least I wouldn't know how it would affect it if it did. Vs Falcon you don't really want to throw him offstage at low percent because then you have the counter vs runoff Fair 50/50 you can't influence and could die for attempting, but you gain easier neutral when Falcon can't dash back against you and on FoD he loses viability of his aerials. So can't say for sure I guess.

As for Sheik, you can just look at the Kadano chart for Uthrow percents. If you want to throw when Uthrow Utilt doesn't work, then just be ready for a Utilt vs FH/DJ Fair/Uair catch their jump mixup. They're most likely going to jump since they'll be mashing it/trying to DI Utilt up though so you can skew your preference toward letting them jump then chasing.

 

[Kopaka]

Dr Peepee I need some help in neutral vs sheik. Here's a short time stamp of a situation I'm looking at right now and ends when marth dash attacks. https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=55

If my goal in neutral is to grab/hit them and not get grabbed/hit myself, what should I be thinking about? There's so many possibilities that could happen in this tiny situation I almost feel overwhelmed with what could happen. It's way more difficult to decide these things when I wasn't the one playing the set too. I dont want to go with just the easy "dont dash attack in neutral like this" answer too.

 

[Uma]

Sheik iirc it's kind of okay but not as guaranteed. Falcon and Ganon absolutely yes. I don't think it affects stage selection at all, or at least I wouldn't know how it would affect it if it did. Vs Falcon you don't really want to throw him offstage at low percent because then you have the counter vs runoff Fair 50/50 you can't influence and could die for attempting, but you gain easier neutral when Falcon can't dash back against you and on FoD he loses viability of his aerials. So can't say for sure I guess.

As for Sheik, you can just look at the Kadano chart for Uthrow percents. If you want to throw when Uthrow Utilt doesn't work, then just be ready for a Utilt vs FH/DJ Fair/Uair catch their jump mixup. They're most likely going to jump since they'll be mashing it/trying to DI Utilt up though so you can skew your preference toward letting them jump then chasing.

Thanks this was very helpful, so if you don't think tech chasing sheik is as guarenteed as the other two what do you suggest to look for when there is no platform to upthrow her on when she's able to CC?

 

[Uma]

Dr Peepee I need some help in neutral vs sheik. Here's a short time stamp of a situation I'm looking at right now and ends when marth dash attacks. https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=55

If my goal in neutral is to grab/hit them and not get grabbed/hit myself, what should I be thinking about? There's so many possibilities that could happen in this tiny situation I almost feel overwhelmed with what could happen. It's way more difficult to decide these things when I wasn't the one playing the set too. I dont want to go with just the easy "dont dash attack in neutral like this" answer too.

I'm also asking for sheik advice so take this with a grain of salt but that Marth had like 15 opportunities to get a grab there. He also did his sh fair so fast that the move didn't even come out properly and it looked like it would have tipped and led to a combo chance if he didn't flub it. If you watch right before he gets hit he did 3 dash towards faints that all could have been successful pivot grabs. HE DIDNT EVEN USE HIS INVINCIBILITY IM SO TRIGGERED

 

[Kopaka]

I'm also asking for sheik advice so take this with a grain of salt but that Marth had like 15 opportunities to get a grab there. He also did his sh fair so fast that the move didn't even come out properly and it looked like it would have tipped and led to a combo chance if he didn't flub it. If you watch right before he gets hit he did 3 dash towards faints that all could have been successful pivot grabs. HE DIDNT EVEN USE HIS INVINCIBILITY IM SO TRIGGERED

Yeah I might just make myself a list of things that I see happen all the time that gets marth punished or marth lose out on potential opportunities. just looking for a way to get clarity on what i should be thinking about when watching/playing this matchup if I want to win it more often than not

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I need some help in neutral vs sheik. Here's a short time stamp of a situation I'm looking at right now and ends when marth dash attacks. https://youtu.be/lM-7ZE2FOcA?t=55

If my goal in neutral is to grab/hit them and not get grabbed/hit myself, what should I be thinking about? There's so many possibilities that could happen in this tiny situation I almost feel overwhelmed with what could happen. It's way more difficult to decide these things when I wasn't the one playing the set too. I dont want to go with just the easy "dont dash attack in neutral like this" answer too.

Looks to me like you kept backing up because you expected an attack/counterattack and were only threatening Dtilt. However the Sheik knew if you ran forward more than a little that a Dtilt was coming and just backed up both times and otherwise didn't have much to fear from your DD so they pushed into you.

You should probably either mix your forward movement with other options like letting it stall and taking stage or using Fair, or if you don't want to do that then just control your space with Fair. At the range you were fighting at a lot Fair would have been useful. Watch M2K Plup to see what I mean.

First start with what's happening in the match and explore a few other practical alternatives. No need to bog yourself down with every possibility atm.

Also dash attack sucks =p

Thanks this was very helpful, so if you don't think tech chasing sheik is as guarenteed as the other two what do you suggest to look for when there is no platform to upthrow her on when she's able to CC?

I just played with it and I think Sheik tech chasing is pretty guaranteed until you can Uthrow her at 19%(after throw) which I believe is when Utilt starts having advantage(could be a percent or two later but I think it's fine either way). I honestly don't fully know because it was just a quick look, but if you're worried you can look at Sheik DI down and away and tech away on Dthrow at all percents from 0-16~. That's the main issue since Fthrow should be fine but sometimes you don't want to Fthrow since it'll edge cancel. Also below like 7-8% Fthrow won't knock down so you just have to Dthrow. If Dthrow doesn't work at those super low percents then you just have a quick Dthrow/Fthrow mixup because if sheik holds away for Dthrow you get really good inward DI on Fthrow and it doesn't look reactable if you do it fast. You can also mix Uthrow and catch her jump some if you want, but don't uthrow her onto a side platform if possible.

 

[Uma]

Looks to me like you kept backing up because you expected an attack/counterattack and were only threatening Dtilt. However the Sheik knew if you ran forward more than a little that a Dtilt was coming and just backed up both times and otherwise didn't have much to fear from your DD so they pushed into you.

You should probably either mix your forward movement with other options like letting it stall and taking stage or using Fair, or if you don't want to do that then just control your space with Fair. At the range you were fighting at a lot Fair would have been useful. Watch M2K Plup to see what I mean.

First start with what's happening in the match and explore a few other practical alternatives. No need to bog yourself down with every possibility atm.

Also dash attack sucks =p


I just played with it and I think Sheik tech chasing is pretty guaranteed until you can Uthrow her at 19%(after throw) which I believe is when Utilt starts having advantage(could be a percent or two later but I think it's fine either way). I honestly don't fully know because it was just a quick look, but if you're worried you can look at Sheik DI down and away and tech away on Dthrow at all percents from 0-16~. That's the main issue since Fthrow should be fine but sometimes you don't want to Fthrow since it'll edge cancel. Also below like 7-8% Fthrow won't knock down so you just have to Dthrow. If Dthrow doesn't work at those super low percents then you just have a quick Dthrow/Fthrow mixup because if sheik holds away for Dthrow you get really good inward DI on Fthrow and it doesn't look reactable if you do it fast. You can also mix Uthrow and catch her jump some if you want, but don't uthrow her onto a side platform if possible.

Cool, I'll try to lab this with Krudo next time I see him and see if we can find holes/intricacies. He's a god at basically all defensive options so he might be able to find something missing from this. Why should I avoid throwing onto a platform, just tech -> CC? Or is it because the more reliable damage is keeping her in the tech chase? I think I thought it was a good option because it can lead to really EASY damage alot of the time, but maybe not the most optimal damage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I just haven't played Twitch's Sheik in forever and I don't remember if he could truly get out of it or if I just messed up lol. Either way having the concrete info will be good for the board to see so I hope your testing goes well.

Yeah tech CC or she can just tech roll before you can even act to hit her. If she's at like 16% after the throw maybe it's more okay especially on levels with lower platforms I guess.

 

[Kopaka]

so if dtilt is basically the only thing im threatening with in dash dance its probably pretty easy to beat no matter who you are. I think the same could be said for basically any move out of neutral even if its good. Then of course the spacing at which the fight is going on is also super important as well. Really gotta break out of the not-completely-relying-on-dtilt thing because I see Marths neutral game flourishes sooo much when he's threatening with multiple moves in neutral

 

[KBK Kingkiller]

Regarding optimizing my combo game on Fox on stages besides FD, I've been exploring different options when Fox is below 20%, as tipper unstaled up-air doesn't knock down until that percentage. I know Leffen is a proponent of doing BnB platforms at all times instead of tech chasing and for the most I agree, but I simply don't see it below 20%. Marth has to be at the perfect position to turn-around up-tilt (the only move that knocks down and potentially start up a combo string) to get the 50/50 when throwing Fox up at the platform, so there's that. I don't like the concept of only having a 50% chance of punishing Fox off my up-throw, and it has costs me games where I gambled that and got nothing out of it. Seeing your past videos PP, you would sometimes opt to nair as it knocks down, but it woudn't lead to huge combo strings like an up-air would past 20%. I know platform waveland grab is an option, but at top level it seems like all the Foxes react to it, as Zain has tried this against Leffen and SFAT and they would shield drop aerial to stuff out Zain's grab. It can be a mixup with an aerial instead of grabbing, but again it does not lead to huge follow-ups. Correct me if I'm wrong in any of these.

What I plan to implement instead is to corner tech chase. If I get grab in the center of the stage, then I'd opt for CG until I get closer to the edge. Once I'm at the edge, I throw them at the edge. I can reasonably react to tech in and away and simply grab. If they tech in, I throw them to the edge again and rack up damage. If tech out, I can potentially get a gimp. No/In-place tech I'm still somewhat exploring what to do as I cannot expect myself to react to Fox tech in place shine/spotdodge at this time, nor can I react to Fox's get-up options and jab knocks up too far (?). So I simply observe what the Fox does and pressure them with d-tilt. Once Fox reaches past 20% then I definitely up-throw no matter what. I think I will find greater success with my punish game using this method, but I'd like to hear your thoughts on this.

With regards to what you have said concerning the platform setup and corner tech chasing, there are a couple questionable things about what you have said, and one thing about which Leffen is incorrect that PP did not address.


First, instead of having to accept an up-tilt 50-50, you can, depending on position and percent, either walk or wavedash into a position where you you can react to no tech and tech in place with uptilt and then walk uptilt for tech rolls. You should never get less than 20% if you execute and react correctly (assuming that they are over 5 percent and they don’t use the counterplay outlined in the next paragraph). This works best on Battlefield since the platform height guarantees that you will get the tipper up-tilt. However, it can be made to work on other stages although the spacing is more precise. The only stage it never works on is Dreamland. Second, you should be careful of relying on corner tech chases because fox can no tech slide of from pretty far away. Especially if they DI correctly.


In the past, Leffen has said that Marth gets a guaranteed 40% off of up-throw to platforms. This is wildly inaccurate. Slide off DI doesn’t usually work vs up-tilt, but fox can still turn this situation into a 50-50 by mixing up no tech and tech in place after they land from up-throw. This works because, if fox decides not to tech, they can ASDI down tech in place and then you will only be about +3 which isn’t nearly enough to get anything guaranteed. This loses to FH waveland crouch which lets you react to all of their get up options with grab. The reward for grab here varies based on stage. Stadium has the best since they can’t escape to the top platform. Reward is much less on other stages.

I respect Leffen a lot, but please don't listen to him about Marth. He does not think clearly about the character.

Tech chase is completely viable against spacies(among other matchups), especially under the percents where you can't really get anything off of platform followups on BF/DL(but sometimes other platform stages) without luck/reading them completely with no chance to influence them.

You're right that FH waveland will not work at many percents, especially if the percent is low and/or the Fox techs in place. This is why I like SH Uair the tech in place and DJ waveland grab tech rolls. On tech roll in it's pretty hard to get punishes though so it's not perfect, and teching in place close to the edge they could also conceivably slideoff vs Uair, so it's not a perfect system. I also need to test throws from the closer to middle of the stage on platforms but I have some ideas.
Regardless of all of this, the Nair will give followups on YS/FoD at least but it's not a direct combo just sometimes a tipper Fsmash sometimes you react to their jump with Fair, but that's still really good since you can kill off of it. On DL it's not worth it and on BF it's occasionally worth it. Having Utilt vs Fsmash as a mixup really helps, and having Fsmash really discourage them holding down helps you out a lot. Even if they hold in on Fsmash they will still be offstage with a chance of an edgeguard(admittedly a tough one but it is possible). And if you Utilt instead of Fsmash after establishing that threat then they should take a ton of damage at minimum from that. AND if you're building percent above like 22%~(varies by stage) before throw with inescapable tech chasing then it should be giving you ample time to position yourself. Going at 20% on DL you don't have enough time to do much, BF is similar iirc.

But yeah without getting farther into detail by stage etc I figure I should stop there.

Have you tried an instant DJ NIL to tech chase on BF/DL? It should let you cover tech rolls more easily than waveland while allowing the up-air reaction you already use.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Oh yeah I forgot about that. Good point.

 

[Aksorz1336]

I'm at a point where formulating a written gameplan for each high tier matchup seems like a good idea, but what exactly constitutes a gameplan? How much in detail can you go? Do you have any examples of a gameplan that's more specific than just "know the matchup"?

Also, speaking of knowing matchups: Any sets of Marth vs Samus that are worth analyzing? I'm lacking both knowledge and experience in that matchup and could use some fundamental tips for it.

 

[Barraca]

Hi PP, I'm a decent marth main from central FL and had a question regarding the way marth *should* be played. I understand that you typically play a more grounded style of marth, I can't think of another marth who better abuses his dash dance game than you. Personally, I tend to use a lot of dash dances with wavedashes and shield stops, then mixup grabbing out of shield, AC fadeback nair out of shield, WD OOS into dtilt.. etc.

However, I play with Hax a decent amount over netplay, and he told me "Marth shouldn't often WD in neutral, as it's too committal", he told me to work on just abusing my dash dance (like you), and to learn to c-stick ASDI down during neutral as well (I only c-stick down when I'm being combo'd, for the most part).

What are your thoughts on this? I find that my style really works for me, but even with that I'm aware of how good Marth is grounded and how good he is at just moving around his opponents. I'm kind of stuck in this spot between wondering if I should learn better how you play the game, or if I should just continue refining my own style of play (even if it's not as "optimal").

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH8p7a7Rt-c&t=157s

Here's a set of me vs Gahtzu when I was playing at one of my absolute bests, the way I play vs him in this set is essentially the way I play vs most MU's (minus floaties, to an extent). You don't need to watch it, but I'm not sure how else to describe my play better than showing you. I appreciate any advice in advance, sorry for the long comment. :-)

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm at a point where formulating a written gameplan for each high tier matchup seems like a good idea, but what exactly constitutes a gameplan? How much in detail can you go? Do you have any examples of a gameplan that's more specific than just "know the matchup"?

Also, speaking of knowing matchups: Any sets of Marth vs Samus that are worth analyzing? I'm lacking both knowledge and experience in that matchup and could use some fundamental tips for it.

Well, you need to know how to think of neutral and punish. Some basic percent knowledge(knockdowns, when certain followups work like when to switch from tipper to weak Fair, etc), how to beat what options and what yours lose to, where threatening range is and use other knowledge to inform that position, and what the meta looks like....those are all good places to start.

Maybe something in here will be useful? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zHZgodKKlk Otherwise just search around on Youtube for more recent footage of the matchup I suppose.

Hi PP, I'm a decent marth main from central FL and had a question regarding the way marth *should* be played. I understand that you typically play a more grounded style of marth, I can't think of another marth who better abuses his dash dance game than you. Personally, I tend to use a lot of dash dances with wavedashes and shield stops, then mixup grabbing out of shield, AC fadeback nair out of shield, WD OOS into dtilt.. etc.

However, I play with Hax a decent amount over netplay, and he told me "Marth shouldn't often WD in neutral, as it's too committal", he told me to work on just abusing my dash dance (like you), and to learn to c-stick ASDI down during neutral as well (I only c-stick down when I'm being combo'd, for the most part).

What are your thoughts on this? I find that my style really works for me, but even with that I'm aware of how good Marth is grounded and how good he is at just moving around his opponents. I'm kind of stuck in this spot between wondering if I should learn better how you play the game, or if I should just continue refining my own style of play (even if it's not as "optimal").

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH8p7a7Rt-c&t=157s

Here's a set of me vs Gahtzu when I was playing at one of my absolute bests, the way I play vs him in this set is essentially the way I play vs most MU's (minus floaties, to an extent). You don't need to watch it, but I'm not sure how else to describe my play better than showing you. I appreciate any advice in advance, sorry for the long comment. :-)

Your style is fine. WD is not a big deal and is actually a useful tool since it shifts your DD position, is large, as well as gives you your immediate Dtilt threat, among others out of WD(you get other ground moves like Fsmash out of WD too after all). If anything I'd recommend shielding less, but if it's working then you might as well keep doing it.

I have thought the idea of optimal only was silly for a long time now. Learning the best tools and why they're the best is great, but then you begin to learn exceptions more and more the better you get and break rules more since you are playing against humans. Also feel free to jump more too, just don't always jump in since that's the most punishable thing to do. Leffen didn't struggle with M2K while he did only movement but he did when M2K switched to aerial play more. I personally think either way works well overall but some work better in certain matchups, and switching between the two is also really strong. Hope this helps.

 

[Uma]

Hi PP, I'm a decent marth main from central FL and had a question regarding the way marth *should* be played. I understand that you typically play a more grounded style of marth, I can't think of another marth who better abuses his dash dance game than you. Personally, I tend to use a lot of dash dances with wavedashes and shield stops, then mixup grabbing out of shield, AC fadeback nair out of shield, WD OOS into dtilt.. etc.

However, I play with Hax a decent amount over netplay, and he told me "Marth shouldn't often WD in neutral, as it's too committal", he told me to work on just abusing my dash dance (like you), and to learn to c-stick ASDI down during neutral as well (I only c-stick down when I'm being combo'd, for the most part).

What are your thoughts on this? I find that my style really works for me, but even with that I'm aware of how good Marth is grounded and how good he is at just moving around his opponents. I'm kind of stuck in this spot between wondering if I should learn better how you play the game, or if I should just continue refining my own style of play (even if it's not as "optimal").

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH8p7a7Rt-c&t=157s

Here's a set of me vs Gahtzu when I was playing at one of my absolute bests, the way I play vs him in this set is essentially the way I play vs most MU's (minus floaties, to an extent). You don't need to watch it, but I'm not sure how else to describe my play better than showing you. I appreciate any advice in advance, sorry for the long comment. :-)

I knew what the link would be before I read the post LOL

 

[Barraca]

Well, you need to know how to think of neutral and punish. Some basic percent knowledge(knockdowns, when certain followups work like when to switch from tipper to weak Fair, etc), how to beat what options and what yours lose to, where threatening range is and use other knowledge to inform that position, and what the meta looks like....those are all good places to start.

Maybe something in here will be useful? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1zHZgodKKlk Otherwise just search around on Youtube for more recent footage of the matchup I suppose.


Your style is fine. WD is not a big deal and is actually a useful tool since it shifts your DD position, is large, as well as gives you your immediate Dtilt threat, among others out of WD(you get other ground moves like Fsmash out of WD too after all). If anything I'd recommend shielding less, but if it's working then you might as well keep doing it.

I have thought the idea of optimal only was silly for a long time now. Learning the best tools and why they're the best is great, but then you begin to learn exceptions more and more the better you get and break rules more since you are playing against humans. Also feel free to jump more too, just don't always jump in since that's the most punishable thing to do. Leffen didn't struggle with M2K while he did only movement but he did when M2K switched to aerial play more. I personally think either way works well overall but some work better in certain matchups, and switching between the two is also really strong. Hope this helps.

Thanks a lot, yeah it's very helpful. It's just that people always say "oh play like X, Y, or Z player and that's what's best!" I knew it was always kind of silly, since obviously you want to develop your own style, but the more I've improved the more I can understand why the "optimal" playstyles are as good as they are.

If you wouldn't mind another question, would you say that mostly grounded would be best vs space animals? I think the 2 spacies are my biggest problem MU's recently, I understand what I want to do, but I feel like I just get overwhelmed by foxes speed and falcos lasers. I feel like dash dancing and WDing in neutral to bait punishes is never enough against them, but going in the air almost always loses. I watch a lot of you, PPU, and moon vs spacies but I really just do not understand how you guys move around them so well. I feel like, despite marths great dash dance, it's just not enough against spacies in terms of speed.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Vs Falco you either want to be glued to the ground or on a platform or approaching with Fair/Nair when you're really sure it'll work. Nothing else imo besides maybe Fair OOS when you have to.

Vs Fox you can do either or both. You might be too close if you can't react to either. Be sure you have threatening range established. I notice many players, myself included for a long time, didn't ever really look at it and kept feeling off balance.

 

[Barraca]

Vs Falco you either want to be glued to the ground or on a platform or approaching with Fair/Nair when you're really sure it'll work. Nothing else imo besides maybe Fair OOS when you have to.

Vs Fox you can do either or both. You might be too close if you can't react to either. Be sure you have threatening range established. I notice many players, myself included for a long time, didn't ever really look at it and kept feeling off balance.

Awesome, I'll have to keep those in mind. Is d-tilt not that great vs falco, then? I'm not really sure how to safely threaten him grounded without dtilt, also I had the thought, if I get lasered by falco as i'm trying to dtilt, I either dtilt and I threaten him, or at the worst I eat the laser but at 4(?) frames of hitstun due to CC.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falco is usually jumping, so Dtilt isn't very useful against him then.

Jab is great vs Falco. Take laser tippered jab beats any aerial he can do and obviously any full approach laser. You can WD in jab occasionally if you call a laser and hit him out of laser startup, and can also dash side B laser startup(more lenient since that's faster but you also have to be closer). You get good positions when you're close to Falco and he has no laser out.

Otherwise you have take laser dash back, (Z)PS, kinda dash attack, and platforms(using Fair mostly) as your other main options.

 

[Uma]

Okay so from labbing with Krudo we learned a few things:
Utilt is guaranteed with any DI from 19-23/24%ish percent. From 24-29 he could sometimes jump out but the window is really small and could be worth going for.
The hardest option to cover is definitely di down away tech roll away on the down throw, but it is guaranteed from 0-16 as long as you dash back as soon as possible after the throw. Since she goes so far though, you pretty much have to commit to her not rolling in or else you will run past her. If I read he would do the di down away tech roll away but he actually teched in place, I was still in a position to grab on reaction or dair him if I had already run past. In hindsight I could probably WD back grab and keep the techchase going if I ran past him as well.
Probably the most helpful insight from all of this is that once Krudo understood di down away tech roll away was his best option to escape, he did it more, which led to him ending up at the ledge for me to dtilt him off and set up an edgeguard. My best stage in our matches was easily yoshi's story and I believe that had something to do with it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Neat, saved the post thanks

 

[Barraca]

Falco is usually jumping, so Dtilt isn't very useful against him then.

Jab is great vs Falco. Take laser tippered jab beats any aerial he can do and obviously any full approach laser. You can WD in jab occasionally if you call a laser and hit him out of laser startup, and can also dash side B laser startup(more lenient since that's faster but you also have to be closer). You get good positions when you're close to Falco and he has no laser out.

Otherwise you have take laser dash back, (Z)PS, kinda dash attack, and platforms(using Fair mostly) as your other main options.

Nice, thanks a lot for all the help. Definitely a lot to think about and a lot to work on. I appreciate it a lot

 

[Uma]

Neat, saved the post thanks

Cool hope its helpful, are there any sets that spring to mind for the marth vs puff mu besides ppu vs hbox at apex?

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee I have a punish routine I practice for all the relevant characters except Marth and Peach, but even now I'm not sure what to do there and wanted to ask for ideas. Right now I just juggle them and techchase them on the ground, but I've always thought those were very organic situations and not easily practiced with a CPU. I also do the fthrow > pivot fsmash DI mixup but that's really it apart from thinking about situations - but that's not "practice" per se, so I feel unprepared. Do you have any recommendations for reliable stuff I could practice against those characters?