Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

I'll have to figure out what kind of pseudo follows you can get off of SH Uair whiff before I know this fully. Also DJ Uair is better imo because you can FF out of that sooner which means better followups.

 

[delaysb]

Ok so quick update, I didn't account for staling while testing the throws meaning that some of the values may be off by a frame or so. I'm going back through and retesting everything I've done already while accounting for the reduction in damage if you keep using uthrow. Some of the small frame windows may actually be more guaranteed with the full damage and knockback values of uthrow.

Staling for those who don't know is when a move loses power if used repeatedly I just learned this yesterday because of Bones0 in the kadano thread. Ill update the chart that I have already made and add slight DI into it as well as retest all the utilt stuff so hopefully I can get it more accurate this time.

 

[delaysb]

Mew2king uploaded an analysis of Zain vs Sfat and the insight into combo game and improving guaranteed things in your game along with understanding di mixups/edgeguarding was super helpful. Would recommend watching
Link: https://youtu.be/mr8RvUZicVA

 

[heyitshoward]

Not really a question but I do want to thank and give props to D delaysb for putting in the time and taking the initiative to lab out/research stuff he wanted to learn. More people (myself included ofc) should do that.

 

[delaysb]

Not really a question but I do want to thank and give props to D delaysb for putting in the time and taking the initiative to lab out/research stuff he wanted to learn. More people (myself included ofc) should do that.

Thanks man, actually means a lot. it's taken me a long time to start getting in the habit of just grinding things out when I have a question about something, but it really is one of the best ways to learn in my opinion. Let's get our hands dirty and work through all these questions collaboratively and share as many ideas as possible!

 

[lokt]

Dr.pp, are there any marth vs sheik sets you'd recommend for studying?

I'm kind of confused about fighting sheik's ac fairs at a distance outside of grab range. I've been waiting a lot and using rising fair to call these out but idk if that's a good option because i end up hitting shield sometimes.

 

[Dusty MD]

How do I practice neutral movement? I can move my character well, but I have trouble moving consciously and with a purpose. what are ways to practice this?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr.pp, are there any marth vs sheik sets you'd recommend for studying?

I'm kind of confused about fighting sheik's ac fairs at a distance outside of grab range. I've been waiting a lot and using rising fair to call these out but idk if that's a good option because i end up hitting shield sometimes.

Me vs M2K MLG, maybe me vs him from Apex 2014 as well.

If you're not sure if she will jump, just stand in place and Dtilt/Fair her landing. If she drifts in she will get faired and if she doesn't or only slightly does she gets pressured/hit on landing.

How do I practice neutral movement? I can move my character well, but I have trouble moving consciously and with a purpose. what are ways to practice this?

Do sets of actions where you give opponents a chance to respond between every action. If you do two dashes and then a jump, you should be thinking of how your opponent acts between each action and be able to adjust. Basically keep it minimal(2-3 actions), don't do anything you don't understand, and pretend an opponent is adapting to you once you've gotten it down and adjust.

 

[delaysb]

I finshed updating the chart with new percent ranges and it takes into account staling on uthrow. Some of the followups had a little less or a little more room to get the followup comfortably. I added a small section on slight DI after testing through it I didnt really think it needed its own followup chart since most of the followups are exactly the same just easier to get. Also I didnt take into account when the opponent would land on platforms and other such things so that chart is really only for FD but the general idea still works on other stages, you would just need to platform tech chase if they land on a platform which is an entirely different situation that can be dissected and analyzed on its own.

The way I took the information I gathered was that on away/in DI's most of the time its best for go for fair/bair as it usually tippers and leads into more aerials into corner pressure or a potential edgeguard or combo finisher. shuair almost always has more frames for the opponent to jump out except for slight di and no di. I would love to hear more ideas about good ways to followup off uthrow.

One last note on the chart, the timing at which you start up the aerial is important. At early percents you want to try and start the aerial as soon as you leave the ground. The higher in percent you go the more room you have to jump for a few frames before starting up the aerial.

 

[Kotastic]

Reading some of my post-tournaments journal, I notice that some of my best wins involved me having some feeling of "killer instinct" as I call it. When I have that feeling, I'm hyper-focused in the moment, thinking but not really thinking. My one mission in life at that moment is to obliterate my opponent's remaining stocks with no regards of sympathy. I don't mess up anything.

When I'm not having my "killer instinct" feeling, I'm not totally 100% submerged in my games. I sometimes autopilot as opposed to thinking but not really thinking, if that makes sense. Sometimes I make flubs and laugh it off. I allow myself to get distracted and think about irrelevant things. Although I get the job done, it's certainly not my best performance.

In the Inner Game of Tennis, the author noted that some of his best plays involved him being angry. While he didn't want to necessarily advocate that anger is the way of peak performance, it's the feeling of the moment that allowed him to reach peak plays.

Is this something that I can bring that "killer instinct" out of me in a daily basis? Do you think it should be reserved for players that meet my match? Should I enter each match telling myself, "I'm going to do all I can to win." I'm not really sure what to ask of this other than I want more knowledge on this subject from a top player that's certainly have felt something similar.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I finshed updating the chart with new percent ranges and it takes into account staling on uthrow. Some of the followups had a little less or a little more room to get the followup comfortably. I added a small section on slight DI after testing through it I didnt really think it needed its own followup chart since most of the followups are exactly the same just easier to get. Also I didnt take into account when the opponent would land on platforms and other such things so that chart is really only for FD but the general idea still works on other stages, you would just need to platform tech chase if they land on a platform which is an entirely different situation that can be dissected and analyzed on its own.

The way I took the information I gathered was that on away/in DI's most of the time its best for go for fair/bair as it usually tippers and leads into more aerials into corner pressure or a potential edgeguard or combo finisher. shuair almost always has more frames for the opponent to jump out except for slight di and no di. I would love to hear more ideas about good ways to followup off uthrow.

One last note on the chart, the timing at which you start up the aerial is important. At early percents you want to try and start the aerial as soon as you leave the ground. The higher in percent you go the more room you have to jump for a few frames before starting up the aerial.

It seems like you mostly included slight DI forward, did you also include slight DI behind(that's the one I was curious about)?

Either way cool post I saved it. Thanks for putting in the work. If you ever want to figure out Pikachu Uthrow followups I'm sure it'd be pretty helpful to the Marth community lol =p

Reading some of my post-tournaments journal, I notice that some of my best wins involved me having some feeling of "killer instinct" as I call it. When I have that feeling, I'm hyper-focused in the moment, thinking but not really thinking. My one mission in life at that moment is to obliterate my opponent's remaining stocks with no regards of sympathy. I don't mess up anything.

When I'm not having my "killer instinct" feeling, I'm not totally 100% submerged in my games. I sometimes autopilot as opposed to thinking but not really thinking, if that makes sense. Sometimes I make flubs and laugh it off. I allow myself to get distracted and think about irrelevant things. Although I get the job done, it's certainly not my best performance.

In the Inner Game of Tennis, the author noted that some of his best plays involved him being angry. While he didn't want to necessarily advocate that anger is the way of peak performance, it's the feeling of the moment that allowed him to reach peak plays.

Is this something that I can bring that "killer instinct" out of me in a daily basis? Do you think it should be reserved for players that meet my match? Should I enter each match telling myself, "I'm going to do all I can to win." I'm not really sure what to ask of this other than I want more knowledge on this subject from a top player that's certainly have felt something similar.

On days where you feel this killer instinct, you need to look at your habits before and during that day. You need to look at mental habits as well. Chances are you're doing things that trigger your absolutely focused mental state. You can actually play like this all of the time imo, but you have to train your mind daily to do it. Most people kind of hope it works out. If you can hold on to the memory of playing like that, then meditating and experiencing that feeling and thinking again will be your best guide to making it happen more often. Let me know if that helps.

 

[delaysb]

Yea the slight DI section of the chart was for both slight DI forward and slight DI behind. As far as I could tell with my testing the DI doesnt have any effect on when you can jump out its just percentage. For the Utilt its actually worse if you dont turnaround because the hitbox has to travel further to hit slightly behind you which takes a few extra frames. If you turnaround its an extra frame that you have to use giving them more time to jump out. Same kind of stuff applied for slight DI behind of aerial followups except it made them slightly easier than other DI that could be used.

Ill definitely look into the Pikachu uthrow followups, I'm really curious about that. It'll probably take me a week or two since I'm moving into college this weekend but after I get all setup ill get into looking through that.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ah so turnaround is only a frame. Makes sense then thanks. Good luck with college and if you do end up doing Pikachu testing that would be awesome =)

 

[Aksorz1336]

Okay, so I've been kind of intrigued lately by the concept of threatening range, and want to make it less of an abstract idea in my mind and something I can apply more concretely.

So to begin with, "Threatening range is the space where you are safe from the immediate longest + quickest threat of the opponent hitting you". i.e TR are all the areas around a character in which it can pose a threat very quickly? Also, how slow does a move need to be for it to not be included in the threatening range?

Do you visualize like an aura around a character, where in Marth's case it is sort of like his sword in a radius around him, but with the added threatening zone of WD forward Dtilt? (I'm thinking of editing a few pictures to demonstrate how I visualize different characters' TR. This might have been done already though?)

Also, if I understand correctly, TR has to be established, and will also very between matchups, stages (because of platforms). Could you expand upon this a little?

Would you agree with that Sheik's TR is her Dashattack and boost grab, but can also branch out to Fair down from platforms when availble to her? Or another example, is Puffs TR her SH fadeback Bair?

Sorry if these are alot of questions, any clarity gained on the subject is highly appreciated!

 

[Dr Peepee]

That definition of TR is fine. I'm not sure how slow a move needs to be to not count for TR, but let's remember Marth's TR of dash WD Dtilt is like 23 frames or something(though the part where you actually commit to the Dtilt is much less) so it's probably more about the move itself like you said. I don't have any frame ideas for how slow is too slow for TR but I'd guess actual attacks over like 10 frames or something are pushing the limits.

When you understand TR yes it is like an aura extending from him.

TR establishment is sometimes something that comes in before you've done anything. For example, the better players know to often respect Marth's WD because Dtilt could come out of it before you actually hit them with it. However, some people may play closer to see if you actually know how to threaten the move before respecting it. So yes it should be established, but how it is established can vary somewhat even within matchups because people are different.
It will vary between matchups for your own character because you may threaten different spacings due to the useful moves. So for Marth, Dtilt is not really that useful against Falco or Falcon for example, so you replace it with run up Fair as one possible example. That means you won't be using WD as your primary movement threat when you come in but instead you'll use dash/run now. Not to say you can't mess with run/dash more in other matchups even over dash WD Dtilt, but you'd need to sort out things like how to make up for how slow RC Dtilt is and perhaps switch to more zoning as a result(dash in fair in place or retreating rising fair for example).
For stages, this doesn't really affect Marth but for spacies it's a big deal. They can attack from platforms in many different ways like with (dash) shield drop aerials, runoff dair/bair or WD/WL off into those moves or falco laser, or SH/runoff to a side platform vs fall through, etc. Spacies can also use platforms to extend their ground threats directly, like when a Falco SHs in on Yoshis but DJ wavelands off the top platform into Dair(it could be similar range but from a different angle/overall timing, but even so it's an extension in a sense). Obviously stuff like platform height and overall layout matters too, which makes FoD neat since it's always changing.

Sheik's TR is her beginning of run into DA/boost grab/Dsmash probably. Not sure how her platform Fair could be part of it, but if you mean when Sheik is on a platform then sure. Puff's full threat range on the ground is her SH Bair full drift in(Bair before landing), but in practice Puff won't do this Bair a lot, and she also will be jumping higher to extend her total threat range at the exchange of speed, so her's isn't always easy to define.

Hope this provides some clarity.

 

[ElectricBlade]

So I've been thinking and researching how to feint lately. To my understand it's essentially just faking a movement then doing something else. The main feints I know of include

-Weave towards them to threaten a specific option (through conditioning) then picking something else.
-Empty dash ins to bait out defensive options.
-Tomahawk related things.

I was wondering if you have anything you could add to this. What can make a feint work more effectively? What would be the main feints you use in your gameplay?

 

[Aksorz1336]

Thanks for the reply PP!

One thing I want to clarify that might have been implicitly understood:
What is the fundamental reason to have a good understanding of the TR? Is it to be able to move in and out of it, seeing how the opponent reacts to threats and thus being able to find the best ways to approach the opponent?

 

[Dr Peepee]

So I've been thinking and researching how to feint lately. To my understand it's essentially just faking a movement then doing something else. The main feints I know of include

-Weave towards them to threaten a specific option (through conditioning) then picking something else.
-Empty dash ins to bait out defensive options.
-Tomahawk related things.

I was wondering if you have anything you could add to this. What can make a feint work more effectively? What would be the main feints you use in your gameplay?

The easiest way to explain feints is to give a similar starting stimulus and tie something to it, then do something else. So if you normally Dtilt out of dash WD in, then if you SH instead after dash WD you could react to a jump over Dtilt counter that the opponent would be primed to do after seeing the dash WD.

Thanks for the reply PP!

One thing I want to clarify that might have been implicitly understood:
What is the fundamental reason to have a good understanding of the TR? Is it to be able to move in and out of it, seeing how the opponent reacts to threats and thus being able to find the best ways to approach the opponent?

Admittedly, most people do not spend the majority of the game at TR(in most matchups/circumstances). Invincibility and the size of stages and scramble situations from dropped punishes just mean you'll spend more time closer to the opponent. However, knowing how to play TR also improves your understanding of those inner spacings. Since you now know you cannot(this has a lot of exceptions but I'll just go with it) react inside TR you play in a way that's acceptable to your space and gives you at least some chances for reactions/outplays.

Also, while knowing TR does help you learn to approach the opponent, it also helps you play defense. It's not a way to do one or the other, it's the straightforward way to understand your threat ranges and good options. What you do after that point is up to you.

Let me know if that makes sense.

 

[Aksorz1336]

Yeah, I think it's all starting to make sense!

Admittedly, most people do not spend the majority of the game at TR(in most matchups/circumstances). Invincibility and the size of stages and scramble situations from dropped punishes just mean you'll spend more time closer to the opponent.

So you mean that in the chaos of a regular game, the "true neutral" game where TR is in play is rarer?

I've just started to internalize this concept, but I already feel like I have a better understanding of where to space myself around the different characters, getting a feel of where is a comfortable range to be safe but still being ready to pose threats. I feel like before, I had an urge to be further away than necessary when trying to play safe. Does this seem like a natural development from tinkering around with the concept or is this something I've gotten elsewhere?

Like always, thanks for all the help PP!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes to your first question, though it's worth adding that on FD/PS/DL or vs more defensive players or slower characters you'll be more likely to play that position.

Yeah most people just back up a lot if they think someone will come in and are scared of getting hit and want to counterattack. Afterward when they see there's nothing to fear as you begin to understand positions you can play spaces confidently, or at least understand why they didn't work out.

You're welcome!

 

[ConMac14]

Hi PP,

I was playing in pools at Shine earlier today and was up a game against a shiek who I was researching beforehand. They started playing a lot better, ie starting shield drop fairing after I would hit their shield on platforms and tightened up their movement. I started getting flustered preemptively and this caused me to get in my own head quite rapidly. My question is, how do I mantain composure when the opponent begins adapting or starts to play a lot better?

 

[Kotastic]

I've been internalizing your advice with wavedashing with purpose and connecting it with my other tools. I've come to even more realize that Marth's WD d-tilt range is quite the grounded poke move. In addition to me taking advantage of IASA even when my opponents shield, d-tilt is my go-to move for ground combat. I've come to internalize this because I know d-tilt's clear purpose and its range when I wavedash.

However, I'm not so sure about aerial combat though. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that Marth doesn't have great aerial approaches. Approaching nair is very punishable, and approaching fair is not much better. I recognize that rising fair and fair/nair in place has its valuable uses, especially wavedashing back. When it comes to approaching/wavedashing forward, I'm not so sure what are my best tools and have trouble recognizing my aerial range.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hi PP,

I was playing in pools at Shine earlier today and was up a game against a shiek who I was researching beforehand. They started playing a lot better, ie starting shield drop fairing after I would hit their shield on platforms and tightened up their movement. I started getting flustered preemptively and this caused me to get in my own head quite rapidly. My question is, how do I mantain composure when the opponent begins adapting or starts to play a lot better?

Well for one, you probably shouldn't assume you'll always know what the opponent will do. Build your own strong gameplan as well as know as much about theirs as possible. Beyond that, I highly recommend taking a deep breath between stocks/games and asking yourself what got you hit and what you needed to look out for. It's a skill you build, so be sure to practice it in training a lot to hone it for tourney.

I've been internalizing your advice with wavedashing with purpose and connecting it with my other tools. I've come to even more realize that Marth's WD d-tilt range is quite the grounded poke move. In addition to me taking advantage of IASA even when my opponents shield, d-tilt is my go-to move for ground combat. I've come to internalize this because I know d-tilt's clear purpose and its range when I wavedash.

However, I'm not so sure about aerial combat though. Maybe I'm missing something, but it seems to me that Marth doesn't have great aerial approaches. Approaching nair is very punishable, and approaching fair is not much better. I recognize that rising fair and fair/nair in place has its valuable uses, especially wavedashing back. When it comes to approaching/wavedashing forward, I'm not so sure what are my best tools and have trouble recognizing my aerial range.

One of my Marth rules is "jump if they jump." This is because Marth tends to lose air-to-ground but wins air-to-air. The reason rising Fair is good is because it beats out other people when they jump and you can do this on reaction(ish). It's also good if they shielded and you're tipper spaced or maybe slightly less(depending on matchup). Not only that, but if you're jumping less then you're taking advantage of how Dtilt forces the opponent to jump. If you understand Dtilt you'll know it makes people do a few different things, one of the most common being jump. Then Fair gives you big reward for this conditioning. The more you can connect your tools together, the better you understand your character.

That being said, Marth is not really a rushdown character. It doesn't mean he can't approach or be offensive, it just means he's not going to be a Fox or Falco. He controls his space super well and can do slight approaches super well, and he can do the Mango BS where you act like you'll control space then drift in really far and Fair them which is pretty safe on good conditioning in many matchups, but if you want to approach hard then you need to be able to set yourself up well first and understand your tools. Don't forget, run in Fair is connected to dash(or WD if you want to play on similar conditioning as Dtilt) so you'll need to think of the relation to the movement there too. I think you're pushing the right ideas but you need to keep going and put a lot of other stuff back together I've mentioned before such as my rules or how the other tools work.

 

[Aksorz1336]

such as my rules

Do you have a list of rules for Marth, like "never do this"-kind of things? Havn't heard of before , is there anywhere I can read that?

 

[Dr Peepee]

The main ones I put out are things like

-jump if they jump

-less is more(this applies not just to swinging, but also to backdashing)

-Dtilt is awesome because it is an exception to Marth's toolset(fight grounded whenever possible)

and kind of a general point, but Marth is not a "going in" character, but he can approach well.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Yesterday I lost to two Peaches in tournament. I felt like I played well and my mentality was pretty strong throughout both sets, and I know some general gameplans on how to approach the matchup, but in the end I came close to beating one of them but just not enough. I'm wondering if my losses are due to my lack of experience in the matchup (I rarely practice it with other people for things like neutral and recovery) or if there are actual weak points in my game play that I'm not really aware of. I do know I could recover a lot better vs Peach, as I often jump or run into turnips when I am off stage. I've even gotten some fthrow pivot tipper fsmashes in tournament. I wish I had at least one of those sets recorded, would have helped a lot.

I try my best to study the matchup through vods and solo practice, but I'm wondering what more I could do when I get the chance to play against other Peaches.

 

[Socrates]

Situation: Marth is falling (with no double jump) towards a grounded opponent, the opponent is at low percent and knows the Marth is going to want to fair and is thus crouched in preparation for a CC.

What can Marth do here? Is it best to just land without a move and hope dash back is fast enough to escape whatever they plan to do after they CC? I often find that they crouch at such a close range to my landing that even if I don't throw out a move I'm still not fast enough to get away.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yesterday I lost to two Peaches in tournament. I felt like I played well and my mentality was pretty strong throughout both sets, and I know some general gameplans on how to approach the matchup, but in the end I came close to beating one of them but just not enough. I'm wondering if my losses are due to my lack of experience in the matchup (I rarely practice it with other people for things like neutral and recovery) or if there are actual weak points in my game play that I'm not really aware of. I do know I could recover a lot better vs Peach, as I often jump or run into turnips when I am off stage. I've even gotten some fthrow pivot tipper fsmashes in tournament. I wish I had at least one of those sets recorded, would have helped a lot.

I try my best to study the matchup through vods and solo practice, but I'm wondering what more I could do when I get the chance to play against other Peaches.

You answered this already. Play with Peaches to solve neutral and punish situations for yourself. For getting hit by turnips offstage try to sweetspot your dj or just dip low then upb to the edge.

Situation: Marth is falling (with no double jump) towards a grounded opponent, the opponent is at low percent and knows the Marth is going to want to fair and is thus crouched in preparation for a CC.

What can Marth do here? Is it best to just land without a move and hope dash back is fast enough to escape whatever they plan to do after they CC? I often find that they crouch at such a close range to my landing that even if I don't throw out a move I'm still not fast enough to get away.

Nair to push them back, waveland, empty land jab or dash/WD back or through them. If you find you're too close then Dair late if they're just going to wait, or drift farther away before doing something.

 

[lokt]

PP, I noticed from watching your sets from 2014 vs later sets that you stopped using wd back wd forward dtilt.

Is there any particular reason you don't use this option anymore?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Probably more on the circumstances of the videos than the tool itself. It's a fine play, especially against Marth/Sheik/Peach/ICs and sometimes Fox(maybe Samus too, unsure).

Edit: My move usage can go in phases as well. Sometimes because I'm working on new stuff or I just forget older tools. This can work in my favor against opponents who prepare for a certain thing from me, and also keeps the game fresh for myself. Not sure if that happened here, but figured I'd mention it just in case.

 

[Blatant J]

Am I correct in thinking neutral vs falco should boil down high lasers vs low lasers? high lasers can be PS'd 100% with ease (with trigger trick) while low lasers can be punished with DA on a read, the risk reward seems to favour marth in this scenario.

 

[UnderTheKnife]

Hey PP, how does one go about incorporating your idea of intention/manipulating the opponent in live play? I have spent the past week solo practicing for an hour (or more) a day, wavedashing, dashing, fair, dtilt, etc. and thinking about possible responses, what they "mean", and the different threats these all carry, but in play, I don't see my practice converted into any tangible results, and I find it difficult to remember to play with my intention in mind alongside other foundational principles in mind like stage control, spacing, etc. It's a lot to keep track of, and I find myself either focusing so much on one of these that I overthink and often lose.

In addition, what do you do when you watch videos? I know you've mentioned to take note of how people get hits and get hit, but what do you do with that information? Do you take mental notes? Write it down? Do you have a system?

Thank you!!

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Dr Peepee I noticed in your Apex 2015 set against Armada's Peach in Winner's Semis that when you had his Peach off stage, a lot of the time you wouldn't commit to going up there and trying to hit him and instead you would keep control of the area around the ledge. I would see you run off stage and do a DJ backwards retreating fair on reaction to a lot of what Peach is doing. Are you doing this because Marth has the ability to hold down that area of the stage really well on reaction without having to commit to anything? It looks like you were able to cover a lot of options just by standing in that same spot. Do you always try to put Peach in that same spot in the matchup?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Am I correct in thinking neutral vs falco should boil down high lasers vs low lasers? high lasers can be PS'd 100% with ease (with trigger trick) while low lasers can be punished with DA on a read, the risk reward seems to favour marth in this scenario.

If you can react to it then I'd agree, but that's a hard reaction imo. I'm not sure it can be even somewhat consistently done against a Falco mixing dashes into his lasers and threatening aerial approaches or partial laser or slightly spaced back lasers well. I'll write down to look into this reaction on my own because if it's true then that would definitely give Marth the win in this matchup.

Hey PP, how does one go about incorporating your idea of intention/manipulating the opponent in live play? I have spent the past week solo practicing for an hour (or more) a day, wavedashing, dashing, fair, dtilt, etc. and thinking about possible responses, what they "mean", and the different threats these all carry, but in play, I don't see my practice converted into any tangible results, and I find it difficult to remember to play with my intention in mind alongside other foundational principles in mind like stage control, spacing, etc. It's a lot to keep track of, and I find myself either focusing so much on one of these that I overthink and often lose.

In addition, what do you do when you watch videos? I know you've mentioned to take note of how people get hits and get hit, but what do you do with that information? Do you take mental notes? Write it down? Do you have a system?

Thank you!!

Well first off, thanks for taking the time to actually practice this stuff. It's hard for me to know how to give advice on this since I only started learning it after becoming a top player really, so I'll see if I can modify my practice recommendation in a more useful way.

When practicing, are you thinking "this is the purpose of this tool, and this is how it wins and loses vs this character or this position?" Because if you come into a match with testable theories (if I do this, then they should do either X or Y right?) then you should be able to get clear feedback on your ideas quickly. Also, don't worry about putting everything together at first. Focus on each individual question or area you want to work on and then slowly add everything together. If you lose stage position while working on punish or on the way WD works then who cares as long as you learn from it, it's just friendlies and they're meant to be learned from.

When you find out why a hit happens, make a prediction about why it happened. Explain from an in-game standpoint as much as possible even if someone is choking(unless it's your own match I guess, then just remember to focus more on your mental training). If you literally mean what do I do with the information, then sometimes I write down the patterns I discover for players or for characters or for the meta, or I write down what works for my character or myself or doesn't work and usually I write it in a notepad file. Sometimes I use a physical notebook though to help me remember better and especially if it's stuff I want to refresh myself about on the plane ride to tourneys. There is probably a more complex system there with how I decide what to write down and when and what is just going to be a mental note, but I honestly couldn't tell you how I do it all lol. Hopefully once I'm doing analysis videos after I'm better you can get some ideas though.

Dr Peepee I noticed in your Apex 2015 set against Armada's Peach in Winner's Semis that when you had his Peach off stage, a lot of the time you wouldn't commit to going up there and trying to hit him and instead you would keep control of the area around the ledge. I would see you run off stage and do a DJ backwards retreating fair on reaction to a lot of what Peach is doing. Are you doing this because Marth has the ability to hold down that area of the stage really well on reaction without having to commit to anything? It looks like you were able to cover a lot of options just by standing in that same spot. Do you always try to put Peach in that same spot in the matchup?

I just didn't want to get surprised with falling Fair and didn't trust my reaction to it probably. Watch M2K for edgeguarding Peach because he knows it way better than I do(besides when Peach is high up).

 

[Socrates]

I had an experience playing against a falcon the other day that I have a question about. We were on FD and I noticed he was dash dancing a lot AKA being passive and realized that I could push in as much as I wanted and he would just keep backing up. Upon realizing this, I ran in to press him to the ledge and WD in > f-smashed, which worked. Now, after he re-spawned, I got him into a similar position on the ledge and instead of backing up, he shielded. At this point is when it hit me that I got him to shield because of the f-smash from last stock and was able to just run up and grab him because he wasn't backing up anymore.

This being an extremely rudimentary example, is this the kind of thing you mean when you talk about conditioning the opponent and controlling space with the threat of Marths movement and hitboxes? I'm trying to find ways to apply this sort of effect to other areas of neutral but I want to make sure I'm on the right track.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes! That is absolutely what did it. To be even more clear, he likely shielded when he saw you run in, because last time you moved in you fsmashed. Even if not though, he would still shield when cornered more likely if he thought you would move in because he wouldn't feel safe moving. It gets more specific about specific actions like I said above against better players, but yeah you're definitely on the right track.

 

[UnderTheKnife]

Well first off, thanks for taking the time to actually practice this stuff. It's hard for me to know how to give advice on this since I only started learning it after becoming a top player really, so I'll see if I can modify my practice recommendation in a more useful way.

When practicing, are you thinking "this is the purpose of this tool, and this is how it wins and loses vs this character or this position?" Because if you come into a match with testable theories (if I do this, then they should do either X or Y right?) then you should be able to get clear feedback on your ideas quickly. Also, don't worry about putting everything together at first. Focus on each individual question or area you want to work on and then slowly add everything together. If you lose stage position while working on punish or on the way WD works then who cares as long as you learn from it, it's just friendlies and they're meant to be learned from.

When you find out why a hit happens, make a prediction about why it happened. Explain from an in-game standpoint as much as possible even if someone is choking(unless it's your own match I guess, then just remember to focus more on your mental training). If you literally mean what do I do with the information, then sometimes I write down the patterns I discover for players or for characters or for the meta, or I write down what works for my character or myself or doesn't work and usually I write it in a notepad file. Sometimes I use a physical notebook though to help me remember better and especially if it's stuff I want to refresh myself about on the plane ride to tourneys. There is probably a more complex system there with how I decide what to write down and when and what is just going to be a mental note, but I honestly couldn't tell you how I do it all lol. Hopefully once I'm doing analysis videos after I'm better you can get some ideas though.

Of course! I'm trying to hit PR #1 in my town by January (currently #4) if one of the best players in the world is out here giving advice and answering questions, you bet your butt I'm giving it an honest shot

Okay, I guess I'll go through what I did this week to practice what you said - and the dialogue in my head to accompany it - or what I think were saying rather LOL. I'll load up 20xx, start up a single player match, and, after wavedashing forward/backward and thinking about my various options and the threat each wd carries, start applying that thinking to moves, and specifically moves in certain match-ups. For the sake of example, I'll choose dtilt in the Sheik matchup.

"Down tilt is good because the primary threats in that match up are dash attack and boost grab. So, dtilt controls the ground and forces them to seek alternative options to accomplish that goal. Some Sheiks will start to fair over the dtilt, so maybe I can manipulate them into jumping with this, which is great for me because I can swat them out with fair or a well-timed uair, and Sheik in the air is great for me! However, good Sheiks won't simply try to fair over dtilt. Some will run up shield a poorly spaced down tilt and then grab, and some will crouch cancel a hit from dtilt and grab me out of that too! So, what I could do, is run -> wd -> and fake as if I'm about to dtilt and if they shield/cc I can grab and if they jump and I'm at low enough percent, I can CC grab a fair myself. Still others will take the fight off of the ground entirely and take and take a strong position on platforms, and then other Sheiks will try to neutralize Marth's ground game by standing far away and using needles................................"

and so on and so forth LOL, I'm doing all this thinking while in game I'm just dtilting at various ranges it's a big mess and I'm not sure if I described it fully but that's what I have. After a week, I haven't seen toooo much of a difference from this exercise. A week isn't too long of a time but I think that it's long enough to measure some sort of difference!

That's a good idea, it's good to take it one step at a time. When do you know when to switch focuses? I feel like you can explore all of the different parts of the game forever and I'm afraid of getting stuck!

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ohhh I see. Yeah what you want to do, a big goal from training or any analysis really, is to get your complex analysis down into something simple or a simple understanding. This is something you can run through your mind during a match/between stocks if need be. You can't think that much while playing! In training it's true you want to think through all possibilities, but save that for shadowboxing primarily. With just WD practice think about tools connected and otherwise just think of what the WD does and its properties, such as giving you some set lag for a total shift in position and access to ground moves, etc. Then you build up after thinking of tools individually with putting them together, and then you shadowbox thinking of everything and adapt on the fly to practice in match adaptation instead of trying to do it all in the base part of the training. Think of individual move training like a warm up for your mind and hands, and then slowly build intensity until you're going all-out on an imaginary opponent while still thinking hard. If you do it right you'll build things for yourself to use in a match without having to do all of the excessive thinking.

Do this for a couple days and then play someone. You should know really quickly if this worked or not. Let me know if it did please.

Switch focus when you feel more satisfied with growth in that area. If you're having fun just keep on with that area. You'll get to everything eventually.

 

[UnderTheKnife]

Ahhhh, so the WD exercises are more to familiarize yourself with all of the options you have...I'm on it! I'll test and get back to you, thanks for your help and clarification I can only solo practice an hour a day, is there a suggested ratio of WD/move/movement exploration to actual application of this stuff via shadowboxing? (i know i'm asking 8000 questions LMAO)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Right it's to understand the tool itself better.

I would say first get the tool understanding down, so do like 75/25 tool to application. Then once you reach a moment of deeper understanding with the tool you can do like 30/70 or whatever feels more comfortable for you. I tend to really enjoy both my connection with the tools and with their application so just play around with it once you're comfortable.