Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

no .

 

[Ukulele]

no .

lol What is that a no to? ;_;

 

[Uma]

LOL ^^
PP do you have any advice for mindfulness when it comes to using quick reaction defensive options such as SDI and FF to grab ledge? I know the input and can execute them when I have a friend grinding it with me but in tournament I'm still just unable to react to foxes shine near ledge so I don't slide off. Does it just become an unconscious muscle memory reaction to seeing the situation play out or do you think about it when you think the situation MIGHT occur soon? Lost to 2 foxes at smackdown because of this issue -_- my defensive options in general are poor and it seems more punishing for Marth than most to have this problem.

 

[Uma]

lol What is that a no to? ;_;

Hes already said leffen isnt thinking clearly about Marth (bc he's a salty boy)

 

[Ukulele]

Hes already said leffen isnt thinking clearly about Marth (bc he's a salty boy)

To be fair, I have not seen a single person "thinking clearly" in response to his video and other claims, though. I do agree that Leffen is not necessarily thinking clearly, though. There are some things he says in the video that are incorrect, but I'm not sure how formal he wants to be to begin with.

He should just come to Smashboards to do quantitative MU analysis.

 

[Dr Peepee]

lol What is that a no to? ;_;

What Uma said. Also because of smash politics I'm just going to say that this video was not constructive, as are most things Leffen says about Marth and Marth players.

LOL ^^
PP do you have any advice for mindfulness when it comes to using quick reaction defensive options such as SDI and FF to grab ledge? I know the input and can execute them when I have a friend grinding it with me but in tournament I'm still just unable to react to foxes shine near ledge so I don't slide off. Does it just become an unconscious muscle memory reaction to seeing the situation play out or do you think about it when you think the situation MIGHT occur soon? Lost to 2 foxes at smackdown because of this issue -_- my defensive options in general are poor and it seems more punishing for Marth than most to have this problem.

Yeah so what I do when it happens to me like that is I see how I'm getting hit with shine. Is it when I'm acting OOS or when I'm dashing back or some other way? Then you practice hitting the FF etc out of that position with a friend so it's exactly like tournament. Also I find it's easier to just play more simply as well as always consider Fox could shine you when you're close to the edge so you're always primed for it lol.

 

[Ukulele]

I think it is constructive in the sense that I personally know many people who seem to be lacking some capacity for considering a MU analysis in certain ways. I think the platform restricts the potential of analysis, though. If someone came in and said some of the things he said on Smashboards there would probably a better series of responses.

YouTube comments usually boil down to "u big dum dum," "i think marth wins neutral without any reasoning," and so on. It seems like so many of you are willing to really consider things on the other hand.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I am all for hearing viewpoints that are different than my own. If Leffen just hated Marth and gave his reasons for Marth winning over Fox then I would not have a problem with what he says outright despite currently believing the matchup is even. However, because he does not really go into detail about neutral or punish but spends most of the video downplaying the abilities of Marth players, I do not believe that video has a lot of substance that is worth discussing. Finally, YouTube comments lacking constructiveness does not justify Leffen's own views lacking it as well, especially as a leader figure in the community I would think.

 

[Ukulele]

Certainly you are. I agree that he does not go into very much detail on almost anything he claimed. Results and their relation to this topic, combo game, players abilities/skillsets and other things were not explored to their full capacity; this isn't disputable. That's why I said I'm not sure how formal he wanted to be to begin with. I do, however, think that it's odd for you to say he doesn't go into detail on things and in the same sentence say that you don't think that the topic/video offers "substance" worth discussing. I also am not trying to justify Leffen not going in depth. He can make whatever claims he wants to, I'm simply saying that it would be interesting to see how constructive we could be compared to the YouTube crowd with the same topic. =3=

I wonder if this would even cause Leffen to change his approach to thinking about the MU with regards to the public. In other words, would he actually try to be formal because people showed the ability to point some of these flaws out?

 

[Socrates]

PP, when you're getting combo'd by someone, let's say falco, what's going through your head?

Right now all I've got is "don't jump" and "DI shine away" but other than that, it feels like I'm at the mercy of the person potentially messing up. Is this the case? Or is there more I could be doing?

While we're on the topic, does anyone know of a resource to look at for learning the survival DI for each matchup and individual move at different percents? I'm about to start researching this stuff myself but want to make sure someone else hasn't already done the hard work for me.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm usually thinking about SDI'ing shine and/or Dair to get into position where he can't hit me anymore, so usually in front of Falco(though sometimes I will prefer up if I don't think I can go forward as much). If you have a particular combo position you've seen you want to know about and can link it here I'd be happy to go through it with you.

 

[Socrates]

I'm usually thinking about SDI'ing shine and/or Dair to get into position where he can't hit me anymore, so usually in front of Falco(though sometimes I will prefer up if I don't think I can go forward as much). If you have a particular combo position you've seen you want to know about and can link it here I'd be happy to go through it with you.

https://youtu.be/G0gHyLT0fXc?t=4m4s

Shine starts it out at 4:04. I notice at one point after westballz up throws you, you decide to finally jump out. Is there any advice you have on knowing when it's a good idea to actually use your double jump to escape a combo?

 

[lokt]

do you think its better to uthrow shiek at high percent or toss her to the edge?

 

[Dr Peepee]

https://youtu.be/G0gHyLT0fXc?t=4m4s

Shine starts it out at 4:04. I notice at one point after westballz up throws you, you decide to finally jump out. Is there any advice you have on knowing when it's a good idea to actually use your double jump to escape a combo?

I SDI'd the lasers up to go high and then jumped since it didn't look like he'd reach me with even Uair or I just banked on him not using Uair. Uthrow makes Falco's punish pretty hard if you SDI the lasers up and if Falco chases with Uair it's not a very big deal he can't get much off of it, but obviously jumping helps you avoid taking damage accidentally and can sometimes avoid Uair.

do you think its better to uthrow shiek at high percent or toss her to the edge?

Throwing her to the edge is easier since you don't have to bait DJs or worry about trading and just make her deal with your Dtilt when trying to get back onto the level(you can just sit there around or outside of edgedash Ftilt range). If you throw her offstage even better because you could get an outright kill right there. Even throwing her to the edge of the stage is better because then you could get a smash out of a tech chase or a smash vs Fthrow mixup that can kill depending on how Sheik DIs.

 

[Kopaka]

I have nothing to contribute with this post other than to say I love how active this thread has gotten recently

 

[Blatant J]

Do you think it's feasible to learn to double sdi fox uair? I find it hard to single sdi it when the fox player is good at spacing it.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm not sure how people like Axe/KJH get such good SDI on it but whatever they do is best lol. If you can quarter circle reliably that might be your best bet. I'll probly ask one of those two later on about it and let you guys know if this comes up again.

 

[Peanutz996]

https://youtu.be/ngt_3mke-Xw?t=1905

In this game vs armada on fd you opt to end the chain grab early twice by going for uptilt > tipper fsmash. Is this counterplay to sdi down or just an attempt to catch him off guard? How effective do you think spacie sdi vs marth upthrow combos is in general?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I knew Armada would have good SDI down counterplay vs my Utilt(going behind on Utilt can let you get out or make it difficult to punish iirc). I also probably just wanted to get a more consistent punish, so it was sort of a mix.

 

[delaysb]

Ive seen mentioned in this thread a few times about there being a marth throw followup chart in the kadano thread but I havent been able to find it? Am I just not looking hard enough? If anyone has a direct link to it that would be hugely appreciated

Edit: Specifically for the marth ditto, sorry didnt make that clear

Edit 2: found uthrow -> uair is guaranteed from 13 - 63 percent, aside from that and discussion on fthrow techchase options I didnt see anything else, please let me know if im missing some things

 

[maclo4]

I feel like the harder I try outside of tourney the worse my mindset get (

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Do you think it's feasible to learn to double sdi fox uair? I find it hard to single sdi it when the fox player is good at spacing it.

2 SDI + ASDI doesn't require fast movements if you know at which timing they hit. If they have the opportunity to mix up the timing, 2 SDI requires very fast movement.
Reference, especially the part from 3:54 on covering "burst SDI".

 

[ridemyboat]

I'm not sure how people like Axe/KJH get such good SDI on it but whatever they do is best lol. If you can quarter circle reliably that might be your best bet. I'll probly ask one of those two later on about it and let you guys know if this comes up again.

The best one I know of is to SDI in a cardinal direction frame 1, then SDI diagonally frame 2, and to hold the c stick in the cardinal direction you chose frame 1.

For example:

f1: control-stick right, c-stick right (1 sdi right, 1 asdi right)
f2: control-stick down-right, c-stick right ( .5 sdi right, .5 sdi down, 1 asdi right) (same distance as f1 to the right with additional down)

If you didn't choose a cardinal direction frame 1, then f2 gets ignored unless its a direction in another quadrant with maybe some other requirements.

 

[Zorcey]

Dr Peepee I'm happy with the growth I'm seeing under this new method of studying. I'm getting all these similar experiences and feelings to Kopaka where things just make more sense to me now. It's ironic I feel I understand more because I know I understand less.

A few questions I've been thinking over the past few days:

1. I'm reaaally struggling to map out Fox's TR correctly. I know you've touched on its complexity a bit lately, and I've studied a few sets to look at the distance you tend to keep in neutral, but in practice I don't get it. I think my problems stem from Fox's movement. It feels like if I'm within Fox's TR, he'll hit me if I don't attack, but if I do he'll dash back and whiffpunish me; if I'm outside it he lasers me/camps platforms until I come closer. Another issue is that on small stages it feels like almost the entire map is a threat zone, because if I dash away and Fox follows me, his faster speed means his threat zone catches up with me right away, and I have nowhere to run. I'm not in control and being forced to play this very read-heavy game where even if I'm winning I feel behind. What am I not understanding in the MU? What's Fox's TR (or better, how do I go about discovering his TR)?

2. Do you think it's possible to make mixups a habit? My train of thought is I have a few pretty bad habits I've picked out I'm trying to break (approaching with grab a lot, trying to read jumps OoS with Fsmash, and trying to shieldgrab safe aerials), but to break them I have to replace them with something else, right? The thing is, what's "bad" and "good" is situational because of mixups, so for at least 1-2 of these habits, would it be more beneficial to mix in other options rather than just trying not to use them at all? But how do I go about reprogramming my response to a situation to make it mixup based? Would this only work with reads? Should I not do it then because reads are unreliable?

3. What should I do in situations where I don't understand how I should move? Especially now this happens to me a lot, and I just end up autopiloting a response while I try to reason it out, and you can tell how that ends lol. I've already spent a lot of time dissecting Marth's dash forward, dash back, DD, WD forward, and WD back, but because of the practically infinite situations they're all used, I still struggle with having clear intention in every movement, but it already slows me down a lot. If I don't know what to do, should I just stand still in the moment, and try to remember situations to analyze later? Or should I try experimenting with movement? The issue with the latter is I need ideas, and often by the time I have ideas, a situation has come and gone and I probably got hit while thinking, which makes me uncertain.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Ive seen mentioned in this thread a few times about there being a marth throw followup chart in the kadano thread but I havent been able to find it? Am I just not looking hard enough? If anyone has a direct link to it that would be hugely appreciated

Edit: Specifically for the marth ditto, sorry didnt make that clear

Edit 2: found uthrow -> uair is guaranteed from 13 - 63 percent, aside from that and discussion on fthrow techchase options I didnt see anything else, please let me know if im missing some things

Wait I thought the chart was only for Uthrow Utilt? Can you ask in Kadano's thread about Marth punishes and see if you can get anything to share here? Usually everything is in the OP, but some things you have to search for.

I feel like the harder I try outside of tourney the worse my mindset get (

What does trying harder mean? Is it just more effort, or are you also tensing yourself up making it so you can't fail? If you won't accept failure you can't learn. That doesn't mean you should try to fail, but you should accept success isn't a straight line. It's a hard balance but if you keep at it you'll figure it out =)

Dr Peepee I'm happy with the growth I'm seeing under this new method of studying. I'm getting all these similar experiences and feelings to Kopaka where things just make more sense to me now. It's ironic I feel I understand more because I know I understand less.

A few questions I've been thinking over the past few days:

1. I'm reaaally struggling to map out Fox's TR correctly. I know you've touched on its complexity a bit lately, and I've studied a few sets to look at the distance you tend to keep in neutral, but in practice I don't get it. I think my problems stem from Fox's movement. It feels like if I'm within Fox's TR, he'll hit me if I don't attack, but if I do he'll dash back and whiffpunish me; if I'm outside it he lasers me/camps platforms until I come closer. Another issue is that on small stages it feels like almost the entire map is a threat zone, because if I dash away and Fox follows me, his faster speed means his threat zone catches up with me right away, and I have nowhere to run. I'm not in control and being forced to play this very read-heavy game where even if I'm winning I feel behind. What am I not understanding in the MU? What's Fox's TR (or better, how do I go about discovering his TR)?

2. Do you think it's possible to make mixups a habit? My train of thought is I have a few pretty bad habits I've picked out I'm trying to break (approaching with grab a lot, trying to read jumps OoS with Fsmash, and trying to shieldgrab safe aerials), but to break them I have to replace them with something else, right? The thing is, what's "bad" and "good" is situational because of mixups, so for at least 1-2 of these habits, would it be more beneficial to mix in other options rather than just trying not to use them at all? But how do I go about reprogramming my response to a situation to make it mixup based? Would this only work with reads? Should I not do it then because reads are unreliable?

3. What should I do in situations where I don't understand how I should move? Especially now this happens to me a lot, and I just end up autopiloting a response while I try to reason it out, and you can tell how that ends lol. I've already spent a lot of time dissecting Marth's dash forward, dash back, DD, WD forward, and WD back, but because of the practically infinite situations they're all used, I still struggle with having clear intention in every movement, but it already slows me down a lot. If I don't know what to do, should I just stand still in the moment, and try to remember situations to analyze later? Or should I try experimenting with movement? The issue with the latter is I need ideas, and often by the time I have ideas, a situation has come and gone and I probably got hit while thinking, which makes me uncertain.

1. Fox's TR is his FH in plus his grounded approach in(plus his platform stuff). Most Foxes don't use the FH in and only a few use platform stuff to approach well, so you can primarily focus on SH/ground to ground play. If you move in, you cannot be threatened by both attack in and dash back at the same time. You probably make a very big commitment when you move forward into TR, and if you try not to do that you just opt to wait, which will get blown up eventually by him moving in. I've seen this pattern a lot before. You need to be gaining information about what exactly the Fox will do if you get closer. So the easy way to do this is dash forward into nothing or dash(mostly or fully) in WD back if you're really concerned. You then see how Fox is forced to respond since you breached his TR and you can play with the idea of compound approaches or direct counters to his actions next time you move in.

2. If you like your current options, but they often lose, it's probably from overuse. You are right that you need to add in more options in a given situation, and you can practice that mentally(alternating decisions in the same or similar situation) or with 20xx or a person. The most important thing here is to get some new ideas about how to make your kit more successful and set about testing them seriously. If you're in a match and forget to do something, you either didn't come into it with enough planning or focus, or you need to practice the new idea to make sure it comes to mind.

3. It's better to solve a situation and know it for next time than to just lose all of them and not know anything that happened. Stop moving some. Come up with ideas like answer #2 says and test those out. The more things to test you bring to a session, the more you'll get out of it. Trying to figure it out all on the spot is an unfair burden to yourself but also means you may be wasting more time outside of matches if you don't have anything particularly new to bring. Just keep at it.

 

[ElectricBlade]

A while back you mentioned that you studied martial arts to see what you could learn from it to apply in Melee, and I found that REALLY interesting. I've done a lot of research on my own the last 2-3 days and I've already learned new perspectives. But I was wondering if you could help me look through this article...

https://www.expertboxing.com/boxing-strategy/counter-punching/baiting-and-forcing-counters

I was wondering if you could give smash examples similar to the ones given in the article. I'd really appreciate it if you did!

One more thing, do you have any specific recommendations for which martial arts to research and what in specific about it would be good?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Looked through it, and it seems decent enough. What ideas about comparisons did you have?

 

[ElectricBlade]

Looked through it, and it seems decent enough. What ideas about comparisons did you have?

I guess I was trying to ask how would you replicate the concept in Smash. What are the main ways of baiting out whiff punishes or trades. The article gave quite a few examples for it and I was wondering if you could do the same.

(That is pretty vague)



Edit: Also was I correct about you looking into martial arts to improve? If yeah, what did you learn from it?

 

[UnderTheKnife]

I've been thinking about a LOT of what's been going in here the past couple days, loving the esoteric discussions..given me a lot to think about!

Something more concrete though - how does Marth deal with needle and ledge camping vs Sheik? This style of Sheik is particularly frustrating for me - needle camping from full stage into an eventual grab into an eventual stock into holding the lead via shino stalling....it never feels like I get particularly outplayed as much as I get sort of abused by a gimmicky and campy playstyle but hey, that could be my ego getting in the way and no matter how you slice it, it's something I have to learn to beat. Any ideas?

 

[delaysb]

Dr Peepee , what I found in the kadano thread in regards to the marth ditto was that uthrow utilt is never guaranteed and there was a question kadano answered on page 8 about uthrow and he said uthrow uair is guaranteed from 13-63. I'll go search and ask for more information see what I can come up with. In the replies to the OP kadano said he had made up a chart for marth ditto throw follow-ups but lost it due to his browser crashing. If there isn't any info in the thread I was planning on thoroughly testing to the best of my ability with 20xx and two controllers. Regardless I'll get back with some info

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP, how did you practice reacting to Fox's get-up animations after a missed tech? What visual cues do you look out for to shield grab get-up attack/in-place? Does it vary differently from other characters, such as Falco?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I guess I was trying to ask how would you replicate the concept in Smash. What are the main ways of baiting out whiff punishes or trades. The article gave quite a few examples for it and I was wondering if you could do the same.

(That is pretty vague)



Edit: Also was I correct about you looking into martial arts to improve? If yeah, what did you learn from it?

You are correct I used martial arts to improve, after I was a top player. I would not recommend this to most people unless they already had a martial art background.

My main reason for asking you to come up with your own ideas is so that you can get used to coming up with your own solutions.

One thing I liked in the article was getting close then backing up on the swing. He talked about using your face as a bait, but really it's about getting the big punish/threatening someone and letting them commit. Then you back up on the swing and punish their confident play. Don't take every word on fighting literally and instead try to think of it in terms of arms as extensions like Marth Fair or your head as your body that will get comboed hard in a certain position, etc.

I've been thinking about a LOT of what's been going in here the past couple days, loving the esoteric discussions..given me a lot to think about!

Something more concrete though - how does Marth deal with needle and ledge camping vs Sheik? This style of Sheik is particularly frustrating for me - needle camping from full stage into an eventual grab into an eventual stock into holding the lead via shino stalling....it never feels like I get particularly outplayed as much as I get sort of abused by a gimmicky and campy playstyle but hey, that could be my ego getting in the way and no matter how you slice it, it's something I have to learn to beat. Any ideas?

If you shield needles, Sheik knows you want to WD in OOS after they hit your shield which makes her life controlling you way easier. Either WD down OOS sometimes or just take needles and keep moving to put pressure on her. Also get close enough to Dtilt/Fair her but far enough most of the time to avoid walk Ftilt. Also hold away after she grabs you so Ftilt doesn't blow you up.

Dr Peepee , what I found in the kadano thread in regards to the marth ditto was that uthrow utilt is never guaranteed and there was a question kadano answered on page 8 about uthrow and he said uthrow uair is guaranteed from 13-63. I'll go search and ask for more information see what I can come up with. In the replies to the OP kadano said he had made up a chart for marth ditto throw follow-ups but lost it due to his browser crashing. If there isn't any info in the thread I was planning on thoroughly testing to the best of my ability with 20xx and two controllers. Regardless I'll get back with some info

I've literally never heard of this Uair thing lol. I was pretty sure I used a chart that told me when I could get Utilt to hit that wasn't Sheik percents and it worked great for me. Well at any rate I'm pretty sure Utilt starts working around 20-22ish% after throw on no DI/DI slight in and earlier on full DI in or out. Before that I guess you can Uair apparently or just mix Utilt vs chase their DJ with DJ Uair FF. Let us know howyour testing goes if you can't find anything else =)

Hey PP, how did you practice reacting to Fox's get-up animations after a missed tech? What visual cues do you look out for to shield grab get-up attack/in-place? Does it vary differently from other characters, such as Falco?

I honestly don't remember at this point. I just did it a lot on 20XX until I knew. I think I looked at frame by frame gifs to help me out as well. There's some point where getup attack and stand diverge but I don't remember specifics anymore.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Kotastic
One thing to look out for is that getup animations can vary dependent on whether they land on back or stomach. Onn which side they land depends on what hitstun-animation (there are multiple) and on which frame of that animation they land. For example, let's take getup attack:

Back:
Hit: 17-19 (Front), 24-26 (Behind)
Stomach:
Hit: 19-20 (Behind), 25-26 (Front)

Stomach-getup-attack is easily reactable, while back-getup-attack probably isn't at all (considering the usual reaction time in practice is around 17 frames and the first few frames aren't easily distinguishable).

To look at the animations, I generally use this, it is PM but there is a picture for each frame and the Melee top tiers are 99% the same anyways. For some reason they don't have the tech animations in the folder which would also be useful, but all the getup options are there. They use the technical names, you can recognize the getup options because they all start with "Down".

 

[delaysb]

Alright so for Marth dittos for uthrow -> utilt I went through No DI, DI behind(inward), and DI away in 20XX going frame by frame and if both players are frame perfect(the marth throwing utilts on the first possible frame and the marth being thrown jumps out on the first possible frame) utilt is never guaranteed at any percent. The frame window for the jump out is pretty small though, about 2-3 frames, so it still may be worth going for if they dont/cant jump out in that time window. Once you get to about 15% if you utilt on the first possible frame it will actually whiff completely on all DI, but most players arent frame perfect anyways so the utilt will probably come out a frame or so late anyways and they may be closer to the ground allowing utilt to connect, however that gives the player being thrown even more time to jump out of the utilt. I'm working on the uthrow uair/fair/bair followups from 13 - 63% currently but im not done testing quite yet so ill post on that once I finish testing.

Edit: will finish tomorrow have 2/3 of testing done. decent amount of really small frame windows to jump out or just straightup guaranteed aerials off of uthrow(frame perfect however idk how applicable it will actually be but looks promising)

 

[Kotastic]

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/misc/2005_Stuck_In_The_Middle_With_Bruce.html

Not strictly Melee-related, but I think this is worth sharing. Idk if any of y'all read this, but I've read this quite long write-up awhile ago, and as I delve further in this competitive realm, re-reading this article resonated more for my will to win and minimizing excuses. While this is entailed for Magic the Gathering, I think this is very well applicable to Melee and life.

 

[ridemyboat]

What do you think of this post, Dr Peepee ? http://alexspuffstuff.blogspot.com/2017/08/mac-approach.html

While I think I understand what the author is trying to achieve in their mentality, they argue using several premises I disagree with; I think they oversimplify/misrepresent the positive role emotions take in fueling a person's play.

At the beginning of the article, the author says:

Spoiler

"Traditional psychological skills training in sports uses methodology including goal setting, imagery, mental rehearsal, arousal control, self-talk, and pre-competitive routines to enhance performance by attempting to reign in peak states to a replicable routine as well as reduce anxiety and negativity, psychological roadblocks. However, these approaches carry subtexts implying a) that negative internal states must be controlled or reduced before a positive internal state can take their place and set the stage for flow and b) that flow is a fickle mistress impossible to achieve without perfect preconditions. Neither of these hold up to recent research and these traditional methods have been demonstrated to have no or even negative empirical support (i.e. they don’t actually work lmaooo)."

Both points 'a' and 'b' seem to be false assumptions, because 1) the difference between a "positive" and "negative" internal state is relative to the manifestation of that state in a player's gameplay (like what we talked about awhile ago, with anger sometimes helping to play with a clear head instead of being overwhelming). This invalidates point 'a' because it makes a dichotomy between "positive and negative internal states" meaningless. I also think 'b' isn't grounded in reality when many conditions that aren't "perfect" can trigger entering flow, but it's been shown that routine can do so consistently (I've seen this in myself).

I dislike how the author seems to delegitimize the emotions of a player with statements like:

Spoiler

"Thoughts and emotions are just flashes of chemical/electrical activity not so different from other sensations such as sounds, touches, gravity, temperature, balance, vision, etc. ... They come and they go. They are inherently temporal."

It doesn't sound very helpful or healthy to regard emotions as "just" products of chemical reactions that will pass - imo it undermines their value in teaching us about ourselves and how we react to certain situations. I think being in touch with what we feel is much more liberating long-term than ignoring our emotions and feelings, because it lets us understand what we feel and why, which can remove the feelings of helplessness that would otherwise put us in a downward spiral in bad situations.

They also make remarks such as, "...the emphasis of MAC is to engender the skill of maintaining your focus despite internal states"; "Thoughts aren’t reality, they’re just thoughts. Feelings aren’t reality, they’re just feelings." I have a problem with these, because however you look at it, the thoughts and feelings you have during a game are occurring in reality. It seems silly to me to waste the learning opportunities presented by questioning and challenging and understanding your emotions by regarding them as irrelevant or an obstruction to finishing the task at hand. Take the author's example:

Spoiler

"Imagine yourself in a last stock last hit scenario. You feel psychological arousal, fear, excitement, anxiety. Now you’re going to make a choice between correct behavior (clutch) or letting your emotions dictate your focus and behavior (choke)."

This is a blatant false choice; it assumes feeling these emotions leads to being controlled and choking, ignoring the positive role they play in helping a player to clutch out a last stock last hit situation. As an example, the excitement and anxiousness we feel produces adrenaline, which primes our muscles to react more quickly. Given previous definitions by the author, the "correct behavior" would be to win this situation "despite" the emotions felt, which is nonsensical. I mean, hell, without emotions, a player wouldn't be motivated to get to/through that situation in the first place.

This leads into the next point made about "values." I don't think it's arguable that values literally come from feelings and emotions, or the "internal states." But the author creates another false choice between "commitment" and "avoidance," or an allegiance to values or emotions. Given emotions are what fuel our values and are what push us towards our values, this is another meaningless distinction.

I think what's missing fundamentally in this article is the realization that everything we experience is an opportunity for growth, and cherrypicking particular aspects of our humanity to serve as a compass can't work, because everything is interrelated. But if we're able to take advantage of all our growth opportunities and understand and harness them, I think that liberates a player to really focus on the game and readily achieve flow.

I don't think it's possible to flow when you don't understand, and that it's the biggest mental block to players; whether it's understanding emotions, game situations, or how to execute a technique, not understanding what's happening is when we tilt. And I think to not understand willfully, means giving up growth opportunities, and setting oneself up for long-term disappointment when your emotions eventually get the best of you, and you're not equipped to deal with them, because you didn't invest the time to understand them.

So yeah, lol. I just wanted to write up my thoughts on that article and see what you had to say, because I particularly like your mental game insight.

Out of curiousity, I decided to take this course. I'm about a week in. Without going too deep into different specifics like values and internal states, the main point of the course is mindfulness training and getting a healthier perspective. There's a bit of a focus on team games, but its applicable to anything really. Dunno if I recommend it yet, but I wouldn't dismiss it yet.

Edit: course is structured into 7 weeks, one lesson a day about 10 to 30 minutes long so far, with a guided meditation.

 

[delaysb]

Ok so I finally finished the uthrow followup testing and here's what I found. Keep in mind that I may have made some errors or been inconsistent just because of human error but I did my best to go through and double check my findings.There are also plenty of extra variables that I didnt really play with as much as I could have such as using all options I could think of(I only really went through 2 main options uair and bair/fair depending on if it was away or in DI), different ways of attacking such as double jumping, and specific aerial drifts into an aerial.

Some relevant information to the whole process is how I gathered this information so that it can be double checked and tested by others to see if I made any errors. I used developer mode on 20XX and used the feature that allows you to look at the frame number and player status as the game reads it. You can advance frame by frame and buffer inputs so I would buffer throw input and then switch to another controller and buffer di inputs at the relevant frames to get the same di every throw. Uthrow on marth takes 39 frames and the Marth throwing can act on frame 40. I would input utilt/dash/jump(whatever the first input you want to do) on frame 40 and buffer jump inputs on the marth in the air until he was able to jump out(the first possible frame they can jump out). If they cannot jump out before the move hits them or they can jump out but they still get hit if they jump out as soon as they can I consider it guaranteed.

With that out of the way here is what I found for uthrow followups.
On Neutral/No DI
13-14% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
15-17% - person being thrown has a 2 frame window to jump out of shuair
18-20% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
21% - person being thrown has a 2 frame window to jump out of shuair
22-30% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair
31-33% - shuair guaranteed with no room for error, fhuair guaranteed with 3 frames of room for error
34-36% - person being thrown has a 1 frame window to jump out of shuair, fhuair guaranteed with 2-3 frames of room for error
PAST THIS POINT SHUAIR NO LONGER HITS BECAUSE THEY ARE SENT TOO HIGH - Use FullHop Uair instead
37-40% - fhuair guaranteed with 2 frames of room for error
41-49% - fhuair guaranteed with 3 frames of room for error
50-58% - fhuair guaranteed with 3-4 frames of room for error
59-63% - fhuair guaranteed with 2-3 frames of room for error
64-65% - fhuair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error
Past 65% nothing is guaranteed but there are mostly small (1-4 frames) windows for jump outs
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Away DI
13-14% - fhrising fair guaranteed with 0 frames of room for error, shuair person has 2 frame window to jump out
15-17% - fhrising fair guaranteed with 0 frames of room for error, shuair person has 2-3 frame window to jump out
18-20% - fhrising fair guaranteed with 1 frame of room for error, shuair person has 1- 2 frame window to jump out
21% - fhrising fair guaranteed with 1 frame of room for error, shuair person has 2-3 frame window to jump out
22-26% - fhrising fair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, shuair person has 2 frame window to jump out
27-30% - fhrising fair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, dshuair(need to start dashing for a frame or 2 before the sh from this point onward, I will write as dshuair) person has 1 frame window to jump out
31-35% - fhrisingfair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, dshuair person has 1 frame window to jump out
PAST THIS POINT SHUAIR NO LONGER HITS BECAUSE THEY ARE SENT TOO HIGH - Use FullHop Uair instead(d in front of fhuair for dashing before jump)
36-40% - fhrising fair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, dfhuair guaranteed with 2-3 frames of room for error
41-44% - fhrising fair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, dfhuair guaranteed with 1-3 frames of room for error
45-49% - fhrisingfair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, dfhuair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error
50-53% - fhrising fair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, dfhuair guaranteed with 1-3 frames of room for error
54-58% - fhrising fair doesnt work consistently, dfhuair guaranteed with 0-1 frames of room for error
59-63% - dfhuair guaranteed with 0-1 frames of room for error
64-65% - dfhuair guaranteed with 0-1 frames of room for error
70% dfhuair person has 1 frame window to jump out
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
On Behind/Inward DI(NOTE: 0-1 frame window to jumpout means it was guaranteed sometimes but not throughout the whole percent range. typically this means guaranteed at the lower end of the range and a 1 frame window for the opponent to jump out at the higher end of the percent range. Was weird idk why it worked that way) Also dashback full hop uair may be better starting at 40ish percent havent fully tested.
13-17% - backwards shuair(bshuair) person has a 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 0-1 frame window to jump out
18-21% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 0-1 frame window to jump out
22-26% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 0-1 frame window to jump out
27-30% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 0-1 frame window to jump out
31-35% - bshuair person has 2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 0-1 frame window to jump out
36-40% - bshuair person has 0-1 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has 0-1 frame window to jump out
41-44% - bfhuair person has a 0-2 frame window to jump out, fhbair person has a 0-1 frame window to jump out
45-49% - dashback fullhop uair(dbfhuair) guaranteed 0 frames of room for error, fhbair person has 0-1 frame window to jump out
50-53% - dbfhuair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, fhbair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error
54-58% - dbfhuair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, fhbair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error
59-63% - dbfhuair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, turnaround dash fhfair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error, fhbair guaranteed with 1-2 frames of room for error
65% - couldnt find anything guaranteed, potential for small frame windows on several followups(uair,fair,bair)


Notes on Slight DI:
The followups and jump out points dont change on Slight DI however slight DI does make it significantly easier to get certain followups. Getting fhuair is a lot easier on slight DI than it is on full away di, especially at percents where you have to dash before jumping to catch the full away di because it isnt necessary to dash anymore in a lot of those situations saving you a few frames making your followup that much more guaranteed.

For Uthrow Utilt:
With the retest there is still always a 2-4 frame window to jump out of the utilt. Slight DI does have an impact but is still never guaranteed. What slight DI does do however is make the frame window for jumping out one frame or maybe 2 smaller but there is still always a window to escape.

Followups after initial guaranteed hit:
So far the fhuairs are the most difficult to followup on. Typically you can stay underneath them and dj and get another tipper uair then FF and juggle from there but that's the best I've been able to come up with in terms of what looks and feels the best without putting yourself at risk for a counter attack. Other alternatives that are probably better and worth looking into are sh into dj to cover jump out or something like that.

Hopefully I don't have any typos or overlooked mistakes in here lol, PLEASE test this out for yourselves and let me know if you find something that doesn't matchup or something so we can get these uthrow followups down in the ditto .

 

[Dr Peepee]

Are those percents before or after throw? Also the gaps between percents I imagine have the same results? Have you posted this in the Kadano thread/sent it to him yet?

I'm still really surprised about the Utilt thing but I guess I'll look into that for myself.

For guaranteeds, how many frames are each thing guaranteed by?

Did it ever look like slight DI behind could influence anything?

Were you higher(closer to 1) or lower(closer to 4) port when throwing?

Cool chart and I'll def be seeing what followups I can get off the Uairs if this is true.

 

[delaysb]

Are those percents before or after throw? Also the gaps between percents I imagine have the same results? Have you posted this in the Kadano thread/sent it to him yet?

I'm still really surprised about the Utilt thing but I guess I'll look into that for myself.

For guaranteeds, how many frames are each thing guaranteed by?

Did it ever look like slight DI behind could influence anything?

Were you higher(closer to 1) or lower(closer to 4) port when throwing?

Cool chart and I'll def be seeing what followups I can get off the Uairs if this is true.

Ill get back to you on all that stuff, percents are before throw and I acutally just went up by 3% and then by 5% but yea generally the gaps have the same followups I will double check it though to make 100% sure. Typically the guaranteed stuff is only within a few frames but ill get exact numbers for you and look into slight di behind. I used port 1 and 2 while testing this, port 1 for throwing port 2 being thrown.

And yea I was surprised too about utilt. I went and tested it because he states it here: https://smashboards.com/threads/kad...-data-application.337035/page-8#post-16084304. the frame windows for jumping out are still really small though so from what I saw and most people probably wont hit it without knowing about it.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Seems like in the window where one can jump out, mixing up between sh up-air (vs no jump) and fj up-air (vs jump) might work. There also might be situations where using the double jump could be beneficial, but I am not quite sure when this applies.