Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Shchoo]

2. neither can marth or sheik

2. ché

 

[heyitshoward]

MLG NOLA tho??

 

[Tee ay eye]

i wish i could go :'(

nola is my hometown

also heyitshoward (i'm guessing you're howard from nola), you can't post on smashboards anymore, since your post count is 69.

i highly recommend heyitshoward2 or heyitshoward69

 

[The_Most_Effectual]

I'm sure there have been a million and one nooby Marth's asking this question here, but how can I not get forced into my sheild when dash-dancing? I'll be dash-dancing and a Fox or Falcon will just run in with a SHFFL Nair while I'm dashing forward, or right as I am about to turn around after dashing away. I'll prepare for it, and I know that's exactly what they'll do, I just don't feel like I can do anything to get away from it, and then have to end up shielding it, we're back in neutral, and I have less stage control than before, so I actually end up coming out of the situation worse off.

 

[FE_Hector]

I'm sure there have been a million and one nooby Marth's asking this question here, but how can I not get forced into my sheild when dash-dancing? I'll be dash-dancing and a Fox or Falcon will just run in with a SHFFL Nair while I'm dashing forward, or right as I am about to turn around after dashing away. I'll prepare for it, and I know that's exactly what they'll do, I just don't feel like I can do anything to get away from it, and then have to end up shielding it, we're back in neutral, and I have less stage control than before, so I actually end up coming out of the situation worse off.

If you know it's coming, a simple SHFFL nair can stuff it properly. Alternately, CC and turn it into a grab of your own. Also, WD out of DD to avoid stuff is super useful. Also, depending on who is approaching with what aerial, odds are that you can grab them out of it. Really tight timing for some moves, but I've grabbed Sheiks fair once or twice.

 

[AudioSilver]

I'm sure there have been a million and one nooby Marth's asking this question here, but how can I not get forced into my sheild when dash-dancing? I'll be dash-dancing and a Fox or Falcon will just run in with a SHFFL Nair while I'm dashing forward, or right as I am about to turn around after dashing away. I'll prepare for it, and I know that's exactly what they'll do, I just don't feel like I can do anything to get away from it, and then have to end up shielding it, we're back in neutral, and I have less stage control than before, so I actually end up coming out of the situation worse off.

Using retreating Short Hop Double Forward Air sometimes works also. Also, using a single Forward Air can sometimes lead into a grab.

 

[AirFair]

I think retreating ac nair can cover some advancing aerials, but at earlier percents, crouch cancel grab can be useful against their endlag. Dashdance combined with Wavedash can create trickier movement, so you can bait these moves out and move away from them with both. A lot of the time they will try to overshoot so they hit the back of your dashdance, so a couple different things you could do would be like
foxtrot back
dash wavedash back
and maybe put out a hitbox. It's dependent on what you think they will do , since I think that if they are going to approach you, playing reactive is going to get you more reward without the risk of a failed engage.

 

[kalamazhu]

I'm sure there have been a million and one nooby Marth's asking this question here, but how can I not get forced into my sheild when dash-dancing? I'll be dash-dancing and a Fox or Falcon will just run in with a SHFFL Nair while I'm dashing forward, or right as I am about to turn around after dashing away. I'll prepare for it, and I know that's exactly what they'll do, I just don't feel like I can do anything to get away from it, and then have to end up shielding it, we're back in neutral, and I have less stage control than before, so I actually end up coming out of the situation worse off.

Be sure you vary the length of your dashes (in short). If fox is running in with a SHFFL Nair while you are dashing in, you instead could do a short dash in and long dash back to bait it into a DD grab. If fox is about to hit you as you are about to turn from a dash back, it means that the fox is reading your dash back movement. Instead of doing a long dash back, an option you can do is short dash back DD into running JC grab before fox's nair comes out.

Of course there are many ways to combat this, but this example you brought up is the reason why mixing up your dash dance lengths and timings is important.

 

[The_Most_Effectual]

Thanks for the replies, and I understand what you guys are saying, but sometimes I don't have enough room between me and the ledge to take some of these retreating options such as the long dash back/WD back. Should I be dash-dancing that close to the ledge at all?

 

[FE_Hector]

Thanks for the replies, and I understand what you guys are saying, but sometimes I don't have enough room between me and the ledge to take some of these retreating options such as the long dash back/WD back. Should I be dash-dancing that close to the ledge at all?

A lot of commentators touch on this regularly, but not particularly, no. Basically, the more often you can control center stage, the better off you are. It gives you plenty of room to move around, and makes a lot of people antsy. Other people can elaborate on it more, but you definitely want as much stage control as you can get.

 

[The_Most_Effectual]

A lot of commentators touch on this regularly, but not particularly, no. Basically, the more often you can control center stage, the better off you are. It gives you plenty of room to move around, and makes a lot of people antsy. Other people can elaborate on it more, but you definitely want as much stage control as you can get.

Thanks, I will definitely keep this in mind! I really have to become more aware of when and how to implement dash-dancing in general.

 

[_trix_]

Hey @ Dr Peepee . How do you come up new ideas? Also any suggestions for how to analyze my own videos to improve and how to analyze videos of top players to improve and learn?

 

[FE_Hector]

Hey @ Dr Peepee . How do you come up new ideas? Also any suggestions for how to analyze my own videos to improve and how to analyze videos of top players to improve and learn?

When I'm analyzing my own videos, I generally watch for what I did and didn't do. For example, I've noticed that I'm doing a fairly good job at getting in DD grabs, but I'm under-using dtilt a bit right now. Just look for simple things like that for how to improve. Another quick example is that I don't waveland enough, so when I started doing it, I got a lot more grabs in because of the spacing advantage it can give you. As for analyzing top videos, really pay attention to how they pllay the neutral game and what they do once they get a hit. M2K is the edgeguarding master, so his videos are extremely useful for learning that kind of stuff.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Thanks, I will definitely keep this in mind! I really have to become more aware of when and how to implement dash-dancing in general.

Yeah, huge part of Marth's game. Movement in general, but DD in particular. Someone mentioned stage control; always a good thing. But then what if you ARE by the ledge? Sometimes it just happens. Maybe it's time to improve the ledge game. To play at top level, you can't just be good at one or the other. Perhaps you can develop stage control to such an extent that you just NEVER have to be in a near-ledge position, but realistically that's a bit preposterous. I am actually really good near the ledge; I think Marth has a lot of options there if you know how to position yourself correctly (again, movement, albeit really tight movement), and those positions are usually far, far more deadly to my opponent than if I have a center stage advantage. Of course, the risk is much higher too so confidence is key. DD and other movement is an incredible tool. Controlling space, rather than a part of the stage, is an unbelievably awesome power.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Something I'm wondering, what's a good way to stop and refocus when going from one matchup to a vastly different one in tournament? For instance, the other day I went from fighting against Ice Climbers to Marth in back to back sets, and the routines that were serving me well and that I'd practiced for the IC's matchup (lower amounts of dash dancing, a lot of SH fair and down tilt in place, retreating to the platforms whenever I felt uncomfortable) got me into trouble vs the other Marth, simply because I was using the wrong reflex actions for that matchup. It happens with smaller things as well, for instance I have a lot of trouble hitting Fox's illusion timing if I've been practicing against Falco, or I have issues chaingrabbing Falco if I've been playing vs Fox all day.

Basically, what's the best way to stop your matchup knowledge from "bleeding over", so that your good habits vs one character don't become bad habits vs another character?

 

[kalamazhu]

Hey guys, if anyone has time, it would be much appreciated if they could help me critique this set?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nof8jaScDQ

Thanks.

 

[vexoskeleton]

Hey guys, if anyone has time, it would be much appreciated if they could help me critique this set?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nof8jaScDQ

Thanks.

you should probably just go for the forward throw to basically guarantee the regrab at 0%, if you pummel they have time to di the throw unless you can maybe up throw to di mix up for follow up. There was also times when he would up b onto stage at high percent and you would charge fsmash cause you had no room, you can usually just run behind and sweetspot up b instead and guarantee the kill if you hit it since the knockback is stronger and it will send them immediately away from stage.

 

[FE_Hector]

you should probably just go for the forward throw to basically guarantee the regrab at 0%, if you pummel they have time to di the throw unless you can maybe up throw to di mix up for follow up. There was also times when he would up b onto stage at high percent and you would charge fsmash cause you had no room, you can usually just run behind and sweetspot up b instead and guarantee the kill if you hit it since the knockback is stronger and it will send them immediately away from stage.

Just a warning with fthrow regrabs, the first one at 0% may be guaranteed, I'm not entirely sure, but further grabs aren't guaranteed. However, the only way to escape them is DI down and away (along with a buffered roll?) so a lot of newer people or those not expecting the throw may not DI it properly.

 

[AirFair]

I saw this a couple posts back, but what are the advantages of sh bair dj?

 

[A_Reverie]

Dr Peepee I was wondering if you could offer some insight on playing on platforms. I can't seem to wrap my head around what to do when I find myself on a platform while the opponent still has the main stage. Sometimes I can get a shield drop aerial, but a good example of something I have trouble with is in the Marth ditto. My cousin likes to F-smash me through platforms and I'm wondering how you would react to that and other common situations. Can you explain what you're looking for if you're on a platform and are still in neutral?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm actually still playing with platforms for Marth and don't have great suggestions yet. I will just say you always have shield drop/runoff Fair threat and you can abuse that to get lots of leverage on your position or to reset in neutral. There may also be potential for Dtilt when on the platform especially on stages with lower platforms.

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee I was wondering if you could offer some insight on playing on platforms. I can't seem to wrap my head around what to do when I find myself on a platform while the opponent still has the main stage. Sometimes I can get a shield drop aerial, but a good example of something I have trouble with is in the Marth ditto. My cousin likes to F-smash me through platforms and I'm wondering how you would react to that and other common situations. Can you explain what you're looking for if you're on a platform and are still in neutral?

The advice may sound a little bit shallow, but honestly if you're getting locked onto platforms, make sure you've got really tricky movement. Nice wavelands/WDs to avoid moves followed by dropdown fair/dair depending on % can easily turn a situation around for you. Really, though, because of Marth's moveset, it's difficult to work around platforms properly sometimes, so slipper movement is probably your best option.

 

[PoppaSquat]

Dr Peepee I was wondering if you could offer some insight on playing on platforms. I can't seem to wrap my head around what to do when I find myself on a platform while the opponent still has the main stage. Sometimes I can get a shield drop aerial, but a good example of something I have trouble with is in the Marth ditto. My cousin likes to F-smash me through platforms and I'm wondering how you would react to that and other common situations. Can you explain what you're looking for if you're on a platform and are still in neutral?

When it come to platforms I really enjoy DD --> Shield Stop --> Shield Drop. from shield drop you have a ton of options such as:

1. Waveland on bottom level
2. double jump aerial
3. double jump waveland
4. falling aerial
5. misc. things you can do out of afformentioned wavelands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsl03HJ_LTU this is the amazing guide that got me into it and I feel like witha little practice it can become a staple for marth play if not competetive play in general.

P.S. the shield stop is to buffer a shield direction, you can also buffer shield and a directional input if you hold a shield input (for an L-Cancel for example) and during the lag of the aerial/landing lag input and hold a direction. this brings up an angled shield on the first possible frame and gives you so many options

 

[vexoskeleton]

When it come to platforms I really enjoy DD --> Shield Stop --> Shield Drop. from shield drop you have a ton of options such as:

1. Waveland on bottom level
2. double jump aerial
3. double jump waveland
4. falling aerial
5. misc. things you can do out of afformentioned wavelands

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsl03HJ_LTU this is the amazing guide that got me into it and I feel like witha little practice it can become a staple for marth play if not competetive play in general.

P.S. the shield stop is to buffer a shield direction, you can also buffer shield and a directional input if you hold a shield input (for an L-Cancel for example) and during the lag of the aerial/landing lag input and hold a direction. this brings up an angled shield on the first possible frame and gives you so many options

I've found that shied dropping with one of the corners by slightly pushing into it can be fairly easy with some practice. You can see the drop area here for those who havent: http://i.imgur.com/5kGoilw.png

It kind of widens towards the sides and lets you push down abit more though you still have to have pretty good control or muscle memory to get it that way. I'm not sure how many top players who heavily integrate shield drops do it which way though.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Platform play is a good topic to discuss I feel; it's something I constantly think about since I'm not terribly good at it. Often when my opponent has respawned I try to use platform movement to avoid those three seconds of invincibility, but it actually rarely works since I end up doing it wrong. It's definitely something I should improve on; Marth is so strong underneath a platform so why not when he's on a platform too? Haha, doesn't *quite* work that way but I can try.

 

[Construct]

Hi. I haven't posted here in awhile and I'd like to start playing again. Have there been any giant discoveries in the last three or so years or do we still run away and grab people?

How ya doing pppppppppp

 

[Yaro]

How can I deal with Falco? When I play against him, I feel overwhelmed when I'm close, and can't do anything from afar due to lasers.

 

[FE_Hector]

DuskMarthWater Marth's single biggest issue on platforms is that he can't threaten through them as well as a lot of other characters can. However, I think we do have a few under-used tools that will highly improve this endeavour. Marth has the option to threaten through platform with dair, but it's really risky because it's so punishable. Look at any of BizzaroFlame's Ganon videos and you'll see one thing that takes him super far: crispy movement. When we talk about just about anything Marth, we stress DDing and WDing... in the neutral game. What about when we're on platforms? Seriously, I think that one of the biggest things we can do to improve our standing in the metagame right now is stress platform movement. Honestly, I feel like if we promoted that same kind of crispy movement in platforms, including the regular and smooth use of WLs, WDs, and DDs on and off of platforms, we'd be much better off overall because of it.

Yaro Honestly, just try to keep DDing through the lasers. It's really difficult to handle them at first because you feel like you're constantly getting hit, but they have very little hitstun on them, so most Falco's will stop using them if they see that the strategy is ineffective. When he's up close, try to get him into a position that's good for you. Instead of letting him be super close, try to position yourself in such a way that you can safely threaten with dtilt, fair, and grab while mostly limiting his options. It's a MU that I still have a lot of work to put into, but in theory that's just what you need to do.

 

[outofphase]

So I got worked by an ICs player earlier today who I really feel like I am a good 2 tiers above in overall skill level and I realized I have no idea how to fight a competent ICs at all. After making some good headway vs. Sheik and pretty much crushing the last several Jigglypuffs I have played (my previous problem matchups), it was pretty humbling. I usually just go Falco against ICs and beat most ICs near my skill level, although I don't feel comfortable doing so and often to have to clutch it at the end. I want to stop using my Falco as a crutch for certain matchups (Yoshi/Samus/ICs mostly) and have been watching some sets vs. ICs. It seems like the go-to strategies against them are so unsafe, especially the fair walls that people seem to use. I felt like he was getting a mixup on me every time he managed to get both ICs to shield my dtilt because ICs wavedash is so fast and long. To be more specific, I felt like every time he shielded my dtilt, that he could either wavedash in to catch me dashing away, or wait for me to throw out another attack and punish my lag. From there, he could either dsmash/grab/jab>grab>blizzard>grab and that the numbers were way in his favor. His shield felt so cheap, like if I didn't hit it with perfect spacing, that he was able to reverse control of the situation on me and put me into a guessing game where I die or at least take a huge punish should I guess wrong. I also have a rough time wrapping my head around the idea that ICs can't really approach from the air and I give them way too much respect in that regard.

My question is if anybody knows any particularly good sets to watch to help learn the matchup, and I guess if anybody has some basics/intermediate stuff I can start to toy around with? Is there even a Marth who really knows this matchup in and out?

 

[outofphase]

Lol I meant to edit my last post, please delete. On another note, why can't we delete out own posts?

 

[BlueX]

How do you prevent accidental air dodges when wavedashing? It is hard to when trying to get good movement when you do an accidental air dodge...

 

[Stride]

How do you prevent accidental air dodges when wavedashing? It is hard to when trying to get good movement when you do an accidental air dodge...

Practice more, get more consistent. If you're airdodging horizontally then you're holding the control stick too horizontally and not angling it downwards enough. If you leave the ground at all (such that you're visibly airdodging or moving up and then down) then you're inputting the airdodge too late.

The analogue stick angles within 17.8 degrees of each cardinal direction are considered to be the same as the cardinal direction, so very shallow diagonal angles will count as completely horizontal and very steep ones will count as completely vertical. See this diagram of which angles are registered by Melee:

 

[The Maven]

It's also possible that you're air dodging too late.

 

[BlueX]

It's also possible that you're air dodging too late.

No... I am positive i got the timing. It just seem to happen randomly...

 

[DuskMarthWater]

How can I deal with Falco? When I play against him, I feel overwhelmed when I'm close, and can't do anything from afar due to lasers.

The best laser strategy is probably learning to powershield. I know saying that comes off as really "high and mighty" or something to that effect, but really that's the best way to shut down the dumb laser game. Crouching sometimes works, but only until they shoot lower. But powershielding is not enough; so you reflected a laser, so what? That may be what gives you the few small frames necessary to get a crucial grab. Learning your shield game, and especially out of shield game, is critical. Wavedash and jump out of shield, as well as occasional shield grabs, are what you need to work on implementing. Falco is always going to put pressure on you, mentally; it can feel exhausting fighting a high level Falco that simply won't let you breathe. That's what he does, and any good Falco player will do that to force your mind to think frantically rather than collected. The biggest thing against Falco is knowing that and being able to counter with your own mentality that you can handle it; playing close is something you'll have to learn to be comfortable with. Which means your spacing and positioning have to be as tight as possible. You'll also have to be able to deal out as much punishment to him as he can to you; you need to be able to get kills very efficiently, particularly by taking advantage of his bad recovery. That will take considerable time, particularly because having the presence of mind to finish your food when fighting off the mental pressure Falco exerts from his speed is hard to acquire.

 

[BlueX]

As a beginner who has played Melee for 6 months now... Would this be a good time to learn Marths frame data now and if so what is the easiest way to learn it?

 

[FE_Hector]

I completely agree with DuskMarthWater and want to add that the vast majority of low-level Falco's, and even a fair number of mid-level Falco's, think that lasers are this almighty tool to automatically win the neutral. They're not. They're an extremely useful tool, but like everything else, they shouldn't be relied upon. Dtilt is generally thought of as amazing in the Marth-Samus MU, but PPMD said just the other day that since HugS was handling dtilts rather well, he stopped using the move a good bit. That's what these Falco's don't realize: they feel powerless without lasers.

Also, BlueX I won't say that it's not useful to know some of his frame data, but as long as you understand what's good/safe and what isn't (and why), then you should be good. You don't have to know that (don't quote me on this), Marth's fsmash is active on frames 10-12 and the charge frame is frame 3. The point is that it has like 20+ frames of endlag if you whiff, which makes it risky.

 

[vexoskeleton]

As a beginner who has played Melee for 6 months now... Would this be a good time to learn Maths frame data now and if so what is the easiest way to learn it?

just know when to iasa d-tilt and you're good. You really don't need to know frame data for like any fighting games even in street fighter its not always that helpful except to see how negative or positive moves are on shield

 

[Spralwers]

What tricks/strategies do you guys like to use for punishing floaties as they try to land on the ground? Especially for not getting out maneuvered by double jumps, air dodges, and any momentum stalling tricks.

 

[FE_Hector]

SHFFL uair and keeping yourself near then due to the threat that your presence provides. Utilt when you have the chance should kill.