Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[vexoskeleton]

This is some what of a more general question but how can I go about extending my punishes? I feel they are usually pretty lackluster right now not getting very much percent or leading into a kill and couldn't find much help on how to improve this.

 

[FE_Hector]

This is some what of a more general question but how can I go about extending my punishes? I feel they are usually pretty lackluster right now not getting very much percent or leading into a kill and couldn't find much help on how to improve this.

If they're off the edge, don't let them ge back. Marth's edgeguard game is arguably the best in the game, so abuse it. If they're above you, don't let them get back down. Spaced uairs or utilts depending on % are insane combo tools. If they miss a tech, especially on a platform, punish the crap out of them. I took an entire stock off of a Fox one time because he missed a tech on platform after 3 uthrows and I didn't give him any openings after that. Follow their movement closely and do not overextend. Remember that both bair and fair are super useful, and openings for nair and its insane KB are definitely worth taking.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

@ vexoskeleton It really depends on the opponent you are fighting. Here's an idea to try; maybe start with a Fox, after you've gotten a chain grab to about 30% do another up throw and then connect with an up tilt, then pause and think about every option you have. If you aren't sure of your options, think about every single move you have and if it's possible to connect with it at any point in your opponent's hit stun. Pause at different hit stun points, especially at the peak before they start to fall. Now pick an option and then pause after connecting with the next hit or after your full combo and think about what you could have done to further it. Try each option separately and see how far you can take that Fox before he touches the ground. If you mess up, start over until you hit it. And always remember that a combo is less than optimal if you cannot finish your opponent. Ideally, every combo leads to death. This doesn't always occur, of course, but a combo that just racks up damage is far less useful than one that ends in a tipper or a spike, or a simple edge guard, or even better stage positioning.

This practice will work against any character. As another example get a grab on Peach at lower percents and do a throw in whatever direction you choose and then pause, and again think through every single option you have. Act out as many options as you can see, and then try to come up with another. You'll get to a point soon that you can't just ask someone for a move to extend your combos; you'll have to invent your own depending on your opponent's DI. This is a good way to practice that line of thinking and learn to start reacting quickly and be aware of your options.

Also, this training works best when you know Marth inside and out. If you KNOW Marth has the speed to connect with a move if you input it perfectly, then you know that's a combo. If it falls outside the realm of possibility you'll also know.

 

[A_Reverie]

Slightly off-topic...

The thread title changed. Hey! Whoa! Wow!

 

[Sleepy Driz]

Nice! It's basically been a PPMD "ask me anything about Marth" thread for a few months now, I think.

One of these days I'm going to go back to the beginning and read the whole thread... one day.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ Dr Peepee This is something that I've noticed has been limiting me a lot recently. My movement on plats kinda sucks. I can do shield drops consistently, but I've got to be really conscious about it, and I sometimes get combo'd or drop combos just because I screw up due to platforms. Wavelanding is also a big issue. Ideas for how to practice? (The same issue exists for my Falco)

 

[-ACE-]

I'm no K-Nan but wL into immediate DD into shield drop is good to practice.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I can't shield drop at this time so I don't know the best way to practice it. My guess is that you would want to practice doing a dash or two into a quick shield drop and practice that type of maneuver to use in a match.

 

[A_Reverie]

@ Dr Peepee This is something that I've noticed has been limiting me a lot recently. My movement on plats kinda sucks. I can do shield drops consistently, but I've got to be really conscious about it, and I sometimes get combo'd or drop combos just because I screw up due to platforms. Wavelanding is also a big issue. Ideas for how to practice? (The same issue exists for my Falco)

I'll try and explain a thought process that I've come up with recently.

My cousin, who's been learning from me lately, also plays Marth. He's gotten exceptionally good at catching me with tipper F-smash on Battlefield's platforms, so I had to come up with a way to make that harder if I wanted to use platforms. Basically, I consider 2 options when engaging platforms. I think about whether or not I want to remain on the platform or wavedash off of it as a feint. If I remain on the platform, I jump up and waveland, then begin dash dancing.

From here, you have options and selecting one depends on what your opponent does. For shield dropping, you'll want to use it if your opponent tries to force you into a bad situation by trying to hit you. Shield dropping from dash dance is easier than doing so from a stationary position. From a dash, continue holding your stick forward and press shield. Then very slightly roll the stick along the wall and you'll drop. You can use this to space a falling F-air better as well. I do this if my opponent is too slow to commit to something. The main thing to get down, however, is getting the drop after shield stun which is harder to practice. The idea is to shield a hit and drop into a U-air or F-air. There's more I could say about platforming that doesn't involve shield dropping so just let me know if you want me to elaborate further.

You can practice plenty on your own, especially if you have 20XX. Work on getting quick shield drops from dash dance and mix up doing falling aerials with wavelanding and even jumping and wavelanding back up onto the platform. Shield drops from a neutral stick position are important to practice as well. You can set Falco to laser spam and practice doing it out of minor shield stun. Color overlays also help with this.

 

[FE_Hector]

No 20XX, unfortunately. One Wii hasn't been working recently and the other has 0 gamecube support :'(

 

[A_Reverie]

No 20XX, unfortunately. One Wii hasn't been working recently and the other has 0 gamecube support :'(

Next best option is to let a low level cpu jab you and do it from there but without infinite shields it's a bit of a chore.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

So I stayed up until about 5am on Sunday night playing friendlies with some friends of mine and some relatively new players. I started off playing Marth and actually doing pretty well with him for about 7 or so straight games on a pretty decent Falcon main and a relatively new Sheik main. My mind was calm and relaxed and I just wanted to focus on playing Marth and learning more about his neutral.

Eventually I get to play a relatively new Marth main in some dittos in that night and he actually caught me off guard with his aggressive style in the ditto. A lot of bad habits and poor decisions I was expecting him to do never happened and he actually ended up doing a lot of really optimal decisions in neutral. It put me on tilt a bit and got me a bit salty, because I wasn't expecting this aggressive Marth main to not play the way that I thought he was going to. He proceeds to beat me in 5 consecutive Marth dittos before I finally take one game of my own.

I know for a fact that when I started to play this relatively new Marth main that I wasn't properly respecting him and I was expecting him to just play nooby like many other Marths I could play. Not only was he doing a lot of optimal things against me that I didn't expect, but he also caught me doing bad DI with some well-spaced tippers, exposing my lapse of not DIing properly at many given times. The salt that I got made me gain some adrenaline that helped to keep me awake until 5am. This Marth main that I played that night reminded me a lot of another Marth main who used to play Melee at my school but eventually stopped playing to pursue different interests. They both play rather similarly because they both have this "aura of aggression" about them that can be intimidating. Later on in the night I pull out my Ganon and take consistent games off of him, but each one was still relatively close. Looking back on this night I definitely want to commend him for being much better than I made him out to be, but in the moment I was definitely tense and getting a bit aggravated.

What I can learn from this is that I need to be more empathetic with my opponents and respect them more. I was thinking quite selfishly during most of the time that I played this Marth main and I didn't once stop to think about how he was feeling. Looking back I can tell he was enjoying the challenge that was put in front of him, so I could have empathized with that.

What also surprised me about this Marth main is that he mainly plays PM, and I didn't expect him to play Melee so well. Granted, he does play Marth in PM, so there are a lot of similarities, but I certainly wasn't expecting him to have some solid fundamentals and decision making. Maybe I had a bias in my head that interfered, or maybe I really wasn't respecting him like I mentioned before. He certainly gives me a challenge in the Marth ditto that I want to overcome, and that makes me want to play vs him more. He has a very aggressive yet precise style, while I have a more defensive and calculated style that could be countered by that style if I'm not prepared for it. It's definitely something interesting to consider when thinking about how to empathize with your opponent. I'm wondering if next time I find myself in this same situation that I will be able to catch myself, calm down, take a break, and come back with the goal of trying to empathize with my opponent instead of trying to defeat him in friendlies.

Just something I thought I would share.

 

[A_Reverie]

So I stayed up until about 5am on Sunday night playing friendlies with some friends of mine and some relatively new players. I started off playing Marth and actually doing pretty well with him for about 7 or so straight games on a pretty decent Falcon main and a relatively new Sheik main. My mind was calm and relaxed and I just wanted to focus on playing Marth and learning more about his neutral.

Eventually I get to play a relatively new Marth main in some dittos in that night and he actually caught me off guard with his aggressive style in the ditto. A lot of bad habits and poor decisions I was expecting him to do never happened and he actually ended up doing a lot of really optimal decisions in neutral. It put me on tilt a bit and got me a bit salty, because I wasn't expecting this aggressive Marth main to not play the way that I thought he was going to. He proceeds to beat me in 5 consecutive Marth dittos before I finally take one game of my own.

I know for a fact that when I started to play this relatively new Marth main that I wasn't properly respecting him and I was expecting him to just play nooby like many other Marths I could play. Not only was he doing a lot of optimal things against me that I didn't expect, but he also caught me doing bad DI with some well-spaced tippers, exposing my lapse of not DIing properly at many given times. The salt that I got made me gain some adrenaline that helped to keep me awake until 5am. This Marth main that I played that night reminded me a lot of another Marth main who used to play Melee at my school but eventually stopped playing to pursue different interests. They both play rather similarly because they both have this "aura of aggression" about them that can be intimidating. Later on in the night I pull out my Ganon and take consistent games off of him, but each one was still relatively close. Looking back on this night I definitely want to commend him for being much better than I made him out to be, but in the moment I was definitely tense and getting a bit aggravated.

What I can learn from this is that I need to be more empathetic with my opponents and respect them more. I was thinking quite selfishly during most of the time that I played this Marth main and I didn't once stop to think about how he was feeling. Looking back I can tell he was enjoying the challenge that was put in front of him, so I could have empathized with that.

What also surprised me about this Marth main is that he mainly plays PM, and I didn't expect him to play Melee so well. Granted, he does play Marth in PM, so there are a lot of similarities, but I certainly wasn't expecting him to have some solid fundamentals and decision making. Maybe I had a bias in my head that interfered, or maybe I really wasn't respecting him like I mentioned before. He certainly gives me a challenge in the Marth ditto that I want to overcome, and that makes me want to play vs him more. He has a very aggressive yet precise style, while I have a more defensive and calculated style that could be countered by that style if I'm not prepared for it. It's definitely something interesting to consider when thinking about how to empathize with your opponent. I'm wondering if next time I find myself in this same situation that I will be able to catch myself, calm down, take a break, and come back with the goal of trying to empathize with my opponent instead of trying to defeat him in friendlies.

Just something I thought I would share.

Good read. Marth ditto is one of the oddest match-ups in my opinion. It's really fun because of how hard Marth can punish himself, especially offstage. It can really snowball like crazy or be back and forth. Any time my cousin and I play Marth ditto we always have a good time.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ RedmanSSBM It was definitely a good read, but that's why we have so much writing on theory and everything. There are a lot of ways to play every character, but an aggro Marth is probably rarer than a defensive Falco is. Assuming you properly play the neutral, you've got to remember that you're going up against your own capabilities. Winning the neutral in this MU is going to be even more difficult than in any other MU for Marth just due to how inherently skilled he is as a function within the game. It's definitely a weird MU, but if you're confident and skilled enough, then I have no doubt at all that it's extremely fun. My honest suggestion would be to treat him like any other Marth main. You don't know how good he is, how he plays, or what kind of reads he'll go for, so you give him maximum respect and only go for the safest of options. I've heard that @ Dr Peepee apparently has a list of rules for the Marth ditto in which the phrase "dtilt is very good" (if not exactly in those words) is strongly emphasized, so remember all of your tools. A fellow Marth main at tournament two weeks ago told me "Marth is probably the strongest character overall in the game, but if you take out any part of how he works, he falls apart completely." Take that to heart, even as I'm trying to do much the same.

Sorry for the massive wall of text, but I needed to flesh that out.

 

[A_Reverie]

@ RedmanSSBM It was definitely a good read, but that's why we have so much writing on theory and everything. There are a lot of ways to play every character, but an aggro Marth is probably rarer than a defensive Falco is. Assuming you properly play the neutral, you've got to remember that you're going up against your own capabilities. Winning the neutral in this MU is going to be even more difficult than in any other MU for Marth just due to how inherently skilled he is as a function within the game. It's definitely a weird MU, but if you're confident and skilled enough, then I have no doubt at all that it's extremely fun. My honest suggestion would be to treat him like any other Marth main. You don't know how good he is, how he plays, or what kind of reads he'll go for, so you give him maximum respect and only go for the safest of options. I've heard that @ Dr Peepee apparently has a list of rules for the Marth ditto in which the phrase "dtilt is very good" (if not exactly in those words) is strongly emphasized, so remember all of your tools. A fellow Marth main at tournament two weeks ago told me "Marth is probably the strongest character overall in the game, but if you take out any part of how he works, he falls apart completely." Take that to heart, even as I'm trying to do much the same.

Sorry for the massive wall of text, but I needed to flesh that out.

My #1 Rule for Marth Ditto: GRAB
#2: F-THROW
#3: D-tilt

Game plan: Push opponent off stage with throws and stabs. This kills the Marth.

 

[Shchoo]

My #1 Rule for Marth Ditto: GRAB
#2: F-THROW
#3: D-tilt

Game plan: Push opponent off stage with throws and stabs. This kills the Marth.

100% agreed. Edgeguarding in the marth ditto is key. You pretty much have to bait them into doing something. Generally you never want to be in the air if your opponent is grounded. And just bair, ledgehog or fsmash their recovery. That's my strategy

 

[A_Reverie]

100% agreed. Edgeguarding in the marth ditto is key. You pretty much have to bait them into doing something. Generally you never want to be in the air if your opponent is grounded. And just bair, ledgehog or fsmash their recovery. That's my strategy

A good reason to jump is to get tipper F-air out of F-throw to get a big punish on bad DI with a potential kill combo. This also works on other light floaties.

 

[Shchoo]

A good reason to jump is to get tipper F-air out of F-throw to get a big punish on bad DI with a potential kill combo. This also works on other light floaties.

Yeah that's the reason I put in "if your opponent is grounded" cause if the opponent is in the air you should be there with them, comboing or juggling :D

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Marth ditto is so weird, lol. Who can space better, and who can bait better? But mostly, who can space better. There are a lot of tools at your disposal, since his weight is similar to Peach's, but first you have to put yourself in the right position to utilize said tools. Definitely a match-up of space and pressure. Lots and lots of pressure.

 

[FE_Hector]

Marth ditto is so weird, lol. Who can space better, and who can bait better? But mostly, who can space better. There are a lot of tools at your disposal, since his weight is similar to Peach's, but first you have to put yourself in the right position to utilize said tools. Definitely a match-up of space and pressure. Lots and lots of pressure.

And the ever-fun mindgames :D

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I definitely feel like my edgeguarding decisions with Marth is one of my strong-suits, but I mess up a decent bit of the time and I should practice that some more.

 

[DeadPigeon]

My #1 Rule for Marth Ditto: GRAB
#2: F-THROW
#3: D-tilt

Game plan: Push opponent off stage with throws and stabs. This kills the Marth.

dtilt misses if they DI. if they don't DI regrab or fsmash is better

 

[-=Untamed-Beast=-]

Just posting to acknowledge another change in the thread title.
Shoutouts to sword guy, and all who embrace his lithe aura.

 

[Nicholas1024]

So, something I've been considering lately, but I'm wondering if Dreamland actually isn't that bad for Marth vs spacies. The combo game for Marth vs spacies is actually fine on that stage, since the center of the stage is like a mini-FD, and the platforms can be reliably up-aired through. The room to run around is helpful, and I find the huge blast-zones are actually somewhat helpful, considering Marth needs to kill off of a combo or edgeguards anyway. There's obviously still way better stages for counterpicks, but I'm wondering if Dreamland might not be the stage to ban, or even something to strike to.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Old Marths used to actually CP to Dreamland likely for reasons you stated. Or at least movement. I find Marth can certainly play here since he can move well, but Fox's ability to play such strong defense in neutral and both characters' ability to break out of combos is quite discouraging compared to other levels.

 

[FE_Hector]

dtilt misses if they DI. if they don't DI regrab or fsmash is better

I don't think fthrow -> dtilt is too good of an idea in this MU, either. Regrab on missed DI is way better... I got double 4-stocked by fthrow fthrow fthrow fsmash for edgeguards the other day. I'l get into the habit of DIing it, but in general I'd say that dtilt and fthrow are both really strong moves in this MU, just not necessarily together.

 

[Wafflesaurus]

So, something I've been considering lately, but I'm wondering if Dreamland actually isn't that bad for Marth vs spacies. The combo game for Marth vs spacies is actually fine on that stage, since the center of the stage is like a mini-FD, and the platforms can be reliably up-aired through. The room to run around is helpful, and I find the huge blast-zones are actually somewhat helpful, considering Marth needs to kill off of a combo or edgeguards anyway. There's obviously still way better stages for counterpicks, but I'm wondering if Dreamland might not be the stage to ban, or even something to strike to.

I'm beginning to think Yoshi's might be worse for Marth than Dreamland against Fox (Dreamland is still the worst stage Marth has against Peach, Sheik, Puff etc). In Yoshi's Fox gets a lot of recovery and ledge options, kills you quicker and can run over you pretty easily. In Dreamland you have more space to dance around, you can up air the platforms, get an easy chain grab in the middle (if Whispy doesn't screw you over), Marth lives longer and Fox doesn't really get to live that much longer since a lot of Marth's kills against Fox come from Edgeguards.
I still don't think it's worth banning because not everyone counter picks Marth to Yoshi's (they might take you to pokemon or battlefield when you ban Dreamland) and if you don't ban Dreamland almost everyone will take you there (even if Dreamland might not be worse than Yoshi's, it's still the second worst stage Marth has).

 

[outofphase]

I don't think fthrow -> dtilt is too good of an idea in this MU, either. Regrab on missed DI is way better... I got double 4-stocked by fthrow fthrow fthrow fsmash for edgeguards the other day. I'l get into the habit of DIing it, but in general I'd say that dtilt and fthrow are both really strong moves in this MU, just not necessarily together.

dtilt misses if they DI. if they don't DI regrab or fsmash is better

I don't think he meant them as a sequence.

So, something I've been considering lately, but I'm wondering if Dreamland actually isn't that bad for Marth vs spacies. The combo game for Marth vs spacies is actually fine on that stage, since the center of the stage is like a mini-FD, and the platforms can be reliably up-aired through. The room to run around is helpful, and I find the huge blast-zones are actually somewhat helpful, considering Marth needs to kill off of a combo or edgeguards anyway. There's obviously still way better stages for counterpicks, but I'm wondering if Dreamland might not be the stage to ban, or even something to strike to.

Its not awful, but it is almost objectively his worst stage vs. Falco and imo only YS is arguably worse vs. Fox (but only beyond a certain skill threshold). His combo game is always fine vs. spacies, but so are plenty of characters, and just fine isn't really what you need to beat spacies. They can traverse the platforms on DL extremely well, not really much worse than any other stage, whereas Marth can't cover them nearly as well. Spacies, especially Fox, can combo just as hard on DL as anywhere else, but Marth loses some combo potential. Really that is what it boild down to on just about every front, that DL really doesn't hamper them in significant ways most of the time, while it does present problems for Marth that don't exist on other stages. They can be worked around with some effortt, but they do curb Marth's ability to zone/trap/punish spacies more than the other stages do, save PS transformations (for both) and maybe YS (for Fox).

My baseline for favored stages vs. Falco is FD>=PS>YS>BF>=FoD>DL, with FoD having the most variance.

vs. Fox is FD>>PS>FoD>=BF>YS>DL, with YS possibly being the worst if they can abuse Fox's invincible ledge options effectively.

 

[The Maven]

I'm beginning to think Yoshi's might be worse for Marth than Dreamland against Fox [...] In Yoshi's Fox gets a lot of recovery and ledge options, kills you quicker and can run over you pretty easily.

I have a lot of trouble fighting Fox on Yoshi's. Maybe it's just the stage exposing my bad execution? But I feel like I just run out of room.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Actually, a big part of why I'm starting to dislike Yoshi's are the early kills that Fox and Falco both can get there. With the small stage and low top blastzone, Fox can get ridiculously early kills off of shines and up-air strings, while Falco has the extra kill option of double-shines off the top, along with earlier kills from his F-smash. Even if they don't land one of those early kill moves, they still consistently kill a good 20 or 30% earlier just from the close blastzones. Conversely, an early kill for Marth means a gimp or bad DI, and that'll kill at the same % whether you're on Yoshi's or Dreamland. Also, while the Dreamland platforms aren't great for Marth, I find I prefer them to Battlefield, simply because you can cover the entire thing in one up air.

 

[FE_Hector]

Honestly, I've found myself liking DL more than YS recently, too, but not too much. DL vs. Falco is perfectly fine imo, but against Fox it's not a very good idea tbh. It's not really like this one-pick-cures-all type deal. It really depends on the MU you're playing, which is honestly how you play Marth. Almost everything changes based on the MU, so he's a really weird character to learn.

 

[vexoskeleton]

DL still has huge draw backs in the amount of space fox has to run around you and force you to play at his pace while YS with your fairly large hitboxes and the small stage he can barely get time to get out a laser. If you can play at that faster pace I believe YS to be a much stronger pick than DL as that large space really isn't too great and some foxes want to cp you to pokemon anyways.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Fox is also kinda lame on YS since his Bair is everywhere on that level lol. Essentially, Fox aggression is strong on YS and defense is strong on DL. I think he's the best on those two stages if he can use both of those abilities. Marth can move vs him on DL and can outrange him on YS so it's still definitely playable but he loses to Fox on both I feel.

 

[_trix_]

@ Dr Peepee what stage(s) do you think are the best counter picks after spacies ban FD?

 

[Nicholas1024]

Personally, I really love Stadium. The transformations aren't great, but the neutral form of the stage is just amazing for Marth. I feel like Fountain can also be decent on a player by player basis, since it's decent for Marth and some people just really hate the stage.

 

[Espi]

Not 100% on this one, but is 1st hit of side b safe on shield?
@ _trix_ It boils down to personal preference but for me it's like this:
Battlefield/FoD > PS
FoD > PS > Battlefield

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Dr Peepee what stage(s) do you think are the best counter picks after spacies ban FD?

It kind of depends on the spacie style somewhat. If they're aggressive then DL can even be a fine pick.

If I could factor style out, I'd say PS is next best vs both spacies. I think you can take Falco to either BF or PS and be in good shape(on PS for example Falco isn't so great on the neutral part BUT he's also only decent on the transformations unlike Fox). I actually don't have a good idea of what the matchup is like on FoD though so that's something people have to decide for themselves atm. When I think about it and play it more I'll talk about it. BF vs Fox feels kinda even to me.

 

[A_Reverie]

dtilt misses if they DI. if they don't DI regrab or fsmash is better

Meant it as a general rule of something you should be doing, not something to do out of fthrow every time. Sorry for the confusion. You should be scouting with D-tilts while looking for opportunities to grab.

 

[Shchoo]

Here I've been CPing foxes to Yoshis. I'll probably keep doing it I love the stage in general.

 

[FE_Hector]

DL and YS are the two stages that I hesitate the most on when deciding where I want to CP against a Fox main. I know that I play quite well on DL and YS both, but it's a difficult decision. As Leffen proved against M2K at SSC, Fox can take a Marth from 0-death in less than 15 seconds on YS if his punish game is good. Basically, I consider my options. Assuming that the Fox wins the first round, it suddenly becomes a very interesting mindset that I have, assuming I'm resigned to using Marth.

Odds are that the Fox banned either FD or YS, which are historically the two best stages for Marth. If they banned YS, FD is my automatic choice. If they banned FD, however, I don't always go to YS. Battlefield is a risk in my opinion because of it's stupid architecture's potential to kill you just because you don't have the spacies' recovery. FoD is really volatile because of it's platforms, so it's generally a risk in my mind. DL is typically Fox's strongest stage in the MU, but I'm stuck between that and PS. On PS, Fox has massive advantages during the Rock and Fire Transformations, but it's neutral or in Marth's favor during Grass and Water, and I'm a fan of the neutral state of the stage. We've already seen that PS is becoming a good CP for Marth's against Fox, so that's actually my go-to choice, but against aggro Fox's I go to DL, and on defensive Fox's I head straight to YS. For the sole reason of getting Battlefielded, I hate Battlefield.