Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[_trix_]

Hey pp, what are your thoughts on pivot d-tilt? I've been working on it and I feel like it could be really useful(especially in marth dittos)

 

[FE_Hector]

I'm no God of Melee (obviously), but I think pivot dtilt and maybe even utilt definitely have a lot of utility, especially as an alternative to pivot grab. Honestly, I think the biggest reason people don't do this is because pivot perfection is hard enough to begin with, and the pivot d/utilt inputs are super tight.

 

[Shchoo]

I can't even imagine putting in the work to grind out pivot dtilts consistently, that's insane

 

[Tee ay eye]

It's not actually that hard. It's basically learning to empty pivot (which is relatively practical in today's age) and then doing a dtilt off of it. I can do it... "consistently" in training, but not quite yet in practice.

kadano discusses the usefulness of pivot dtilt here

1. Due to the way the control stick is mapped out for grounded A attacks, you always need to wait until Turn 4 has been rendered until you can start a dtilt. (Assuming you are having your stick on or near the wall of the gate; technically you could input it faster by moving your stick to the dark green zone here: http://i.imgur.com/BJ5R8zw.png, but I don’t human fingers are capable of doing this kind of motion that quickly)
So you have to add 3 excess frames of waiting, which increases the total minimum start-up duration (counting until the frame before dtilt starts) to 8 frames.

2. Turning from dash (“pivot”) makes your character almost stop, so doing the 8 frames pivot will only have you move back a very short distance. This is rarely ever enough to put you out of the incoming attacks danger zone, but works really well for things like fair on shield → dash back → pivot dtilt spaced so that it just barely hits the opponent’s shield. This is pretty much the only kind of situation where I think pivot dtilt is better than wavedash dtilt.

3. Wavedash increases the minimum start-up duration from 8 to 14 frames, but travels a much longer distance than a 14 frames pivot can, so it’s much better for retreating and guarding your territory.

 

[_trix_]

The way I do it is by instead of pushing my stick straight foward like you normally would do to dash back, i dash back by moving my dialog stick to like a 46 degree angle(so it's just enough to be a dash dance) then I just have to move a couple degrees down to crouch and d-tilt.

 

[Shchoo]

The way I do it is by instead of pushing my stick straight foward like you normally would do to dash back, i dash back by moving my dialog stick to like a 46 degree angle(so it's just enough to be a dash dance) then I just have to move a couple degrees down to crouch and d-tilt.

I'd still think pivot aerials would be easier to pull of with high rates of success, and cover similar space if you use fair for example? Definitely a powerful tool though if you could do it consistently, but personally, it just seems like so much, and I would usually opt for pivot grab, or just do a run cancel dtilt

 

[Tee ay eye]

pivot fair and pivot nair are awesome X_X

 

[Shchoo]

pivot fair and pivot nair are awesome X_X

and alot easier than dtilt as you use a different hand for the jump and pivot inputs, makes life so much easier

 

[vexoskeleton]

It seems like wavedash back dtilt is almost just as good as a human perfect pivot tilt if you can space your wavedash well so I don't see the need for it very much. I think empty pivot can be decent for spacing though so maybe it is worth it.

 

[_trix_]

What are your thoughts on pivot tipper tech chasing? I feel like if you could do the pivot fsmash input, it would be an extremely reliable kill set up off a grab against spacies. I feel like finding a way to kill above 80% is one of Marths biggest problems, and having a garunteed kill set up off a grab at 80%+ makes him so much better of a character. Thoughts?

 

[FE_Hector]

While pivot fsmash does have some utility (mostly for surprising opponents), I think that using it as a way to tech chase isn't a very good idea. Only reaching the ground on frame 11 or 12 (I'd guess between 14 and 16 with normal charge on a pivot) would require you to be pretty sure of where they're gonna tech to.

@ Kopaka Do you use Sheik, also? I saw a vid on the Falco boards with somebody using the name Kopaka using a Sheik. Fairly sure I've seen you in this thread before...

 

[Shchoo]

What are your thoughts on pivot tipper tech chasing? I feel like if you could do the pivot fsmash input, it would be an extremely reliable kill set up off a grab against spacies. I feel like finding a way to kill above 80% is one of Marths biggest problems, and having a garunteed kill set up off a grab at 80%+ makes him so much better of a character. Thoughts?

Tipper fsmash is very useful in many scenarios, including as a di and %based followup off of dthrow, and I can see it being used as a tech chase, only problem being it is pretty laggy, so you could get punished if you miss-space it, or do a dash attack instead (missed pivot)

 

[Dr Peepee]

yeah pivot tipper is sick for tech chasing. anyone wondering how great tipper is when tech chasing can just watch mango vs leffen at wtfox.

 

[FE_Hector]

yeah pivot tipper is sick for tech chasing. anyone wondering how great tipper is when tech chasing can just watch mango vs leffen at wtfox.

To be honest, I feel like the only reason that Mango's Marth did half as well as it did against Leffen was because he's got such a weird style of Marth. I'm sure you noticed him making unorthodox choices all throughout the match. Sometimes the weird new (and even somtimes noobish) strategies can throw off good players because they simply expect better gameplay.

 

[_trix_]

It's nice to see pp active on here again! About the pivot tipper, I did some frame data stuff for the tipper and I feel like although it it's not as easy as grab tech chasing, with a lot of practice it could be done every time. The most efficient way to wavedash foward after the grab and space it so that if they tech in place you're already spaced for a tipper( so its a 13. Frame reaction) Then since rollaway and roll in take 40 frames, it's probably around a 10-15 frame reaction(that's just a guess, I don't know exactly how quickly marth can run to the spot he needs to tipper). There are probably other ways to get a pivot tipper off a tech chase though

 

[_trix_]

Also, random non-marth related question, pp are you planning on going to any of the 3 majors in September?

 

[DeadPigeon]

pivot fair and pivot nair are awesome X_X

Is there any reason why pivot aerial is preferred over shield stop aerial?

 

[_trix_]

Pivot aerial are a little bit quicker, and shield stop can't turn you around in 1 frame like pivot aerial can. Also pivot aerials are fantastic for running away then spacing an aerial. Shield stop aerials are ussually used if they're in front of you, because dashing back, then dashing foward and pivot SHing is a lot harder and slower than just sheild stop fairing. Both of them have their unique uses.

 

[FE_Hector]

I know that @ Dr Peepee said he would ideally be going to TBH5. I never asked about September though.

Also, he may be more likely to respond if you reference him directly with the @ Dr Peepee (I think)

 

[Ladder]

Not marth related but why is your name dr peepee?
I mean are you really like a doctor?
Just wondering because if you are Mew2king could go see you

 

[Dr Peepee]

To be honest, I feel like the only reason that Mango's Marth did half as well as it did against Leffen was because he's got such a weird style of Marth. I'm sure you noticed him making unorthodox choices all throughout the match. Sometimes the weird new (and even somtimes noobish) strategies can throw off good players because they simply expect better gameplay.

That played a role certainly but Mango also is pretty good at playing on his opponents and can space well. Besides, Mango is a strong player anyway and if he played ineffectively he would just lose. It doesn't really change that Mango tech chasing with tipper is good whether you like his other decisions or not, those are two separate discussions.

It's nice to see pp active on here again! About the pivot tipper, I did some frame data stuff for the tipper and I feel like although it it's not as easy as grab tech chasing, with a lot of practice it could be done every time. The most efficient way to wavedash foward after the grab and space it so that if they tech in place you're already spaced for a tipper( so its a 13. Frame reaction) Then since rollaway and roll in take 40 frames, it's probably around a 10-15 frame reaction(that's just a guess, I don't know exactly how quickly marth can run to the spot he needs to tipper). There are probably other ways to get a pivot tipper off a tech chase though

It helps you can dash toward the opponent and where they tech or could tech roll to begin a pivot setup before they even get there. At any rate, frames do indicate you can get there in time if you wait, but this just means you'd have even more frames to react if you set yourself up earlier.

Also, random non-marth related question, pp are you planning on going to any of the 3 majors in September?

nope. i have resting to do.

 

[_trix_]

Just rewatched the mango vs leffen money match at wtfox. Another thing that mangos marth did extremely well that no other Marths do is use pivot tipper when he has a read on movement. Some people called them yolo fsmashes that were just thrown out, but 95% of the ones used in neutral where when leffen either started to run towards him and mango read that he would continue running forward, or when he read that he would continue running away. That was part of what made his marth so good, but there were so many unique things he did. Probably gonna start watching more mango marth to learn. But ppmds marth will always be my favorite(:

 

[Kopaka]

While pivot fsmash does have some utility (mostly for surprising opponents), I think that using it as a way to tech chase isn't a very good idea. Only reaching the ground on frame 11 or 12 (I'd guess between 14 and 16 with normal charge on a pivot) would require you to be pretty sure of where they're gonna tech to.

@ Kopaka Do you use Sheik, also? I saw a vid on the Falco boards with somebody using the name Kopaka using a Sheik. Fairly sure I've seen you in this thread before...

Yeah, I play sheik too, but not Falco. Saw that post, yeah that's my "Literally just got back from EVO and Okamibw and I decided to go to a local tournament the day we drove home from Vegas" Sheik.

 

[BlueX]

How can Marths Nair be used? I always thought of it as a "Get away from me" attack.

I am going to be writing this in a guide i am making.

 

[The Maven]

Nair is basically a multihit move, sending out three two-frame long hitboxes diagonally down in front of you while being autocancelable on frame 25. (The forward-facing hitboxes are active on frames 6/7, 15/16, and 20/21.)

Why would you use nair instead of fair? You normally don't: fair covers the same space -- in front of and below you -- on frames 5 and 6, can be interrupted on frame 30 as opposed to nair's 49, and usually has more follow-ups. Basically, fair nets higher rewards, faster, and with less of a commitment. But nair's pseudo-sex kick nature has its uses; it seems safer than fair at covering the falling part of your short hop.

It also covers Fox's sh nair really well for some reason.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How can Marths Nair be used? I always thought of it as a "Get away from me" attack.

I am going to be writing this in a guide i am making.

It's alright for that. It's also pretty great at controlling your space in neutral, since people have a hard time coming in directly in front of you with that hitbox out and you can't CC punish it reliably. Having an AC is also pretty helpful so the lag is very hard to punish.

Marth's Nair is also a great combo move when you can hit with it.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ BlueX , adding in to what @ Dr Peepee said, it can be massively useful for the sole purpose of it's ridiculously high KB scaling. It hits farther than Fair does at any %, so you can typically use it as a mixup to force them into a recovery situation or straight up for a kill. A lot of the use for nair is dependent solely on creativity and making sure you understand that Sheik's ftilt beats it.

 

[FlamingForce]

@ Dr Peepee Is a dash back from idle position (as in instantly dashing to the left while facing right and vice versa) supposed to be such a damn chore? I've asked about this before but I've trying to get this consistent and for whatever reason it just doesn't seem to work, I've tried 4 different controllers (including 2 that have practically never been touched before) but for whatever reason I still get the occasional hiccup where Marth won't instantly dash back but instead go through this small turnaround animation before transitioning into a dash. Even when I smack the control stick as hard as I can possible manage the results are inconsistent.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ Dr Peepee Is a dash back from idle position (as in instantly dashing to the left while facing right and vice versa) supposed to be such a damn chore? I've asked about this before but I've trying to get this consistent and for whatever reason it just doesn't seem to work, I've tried 4 different controllers (including 2 that have practically never been touched before) but for whatever reason I still get the occasional hiccup where Marth won't instantly dash back but instead go through this small turnaround animation before transitioning into a dash. Even when I smack the control stick as hard as I can possible manage the results are inconsistent.

I know what you mean. It's definitely weird to get, though doing that random turnaround animation a few times in a row is really funny in friendlies.

 

[FlamingForce]

Yeah it's funny at first until you miss another followup because the spacie DI'd your uthrow behind you.
I'm quite far past the point of seeing the funny part of it, sadly. It's really ****in frustrating.

 

[Dr Peepee]

@ Dr Peepee Is a dash back from idle position (as in instantly dashing to the left while facing right and vice versa) supposed to be such a damn chore? I've asked about this before but I've trying to get this consistent and for whatever reason it just doesn't seem to work, I've tried 4 different controllers (including 2 that have practically never been touched before) but for whatever reason I still get the occasional hiccup where Marth won't instantly dash back but instead go through this small turnaround animation before transitioning into a dash. Even when I smack the control stick as hard as I can possible manage the results are inconsistent.

I don't know the actual frames on it, but it's just a really tight timing. You have to go full to the side very quickly, faster than if you wanted to go forward.

 

[Sempai]

Does anybody find their Bair is their least used aerial or is it just me.

 

[A_Reverie]

@ Dr Peepee Is a dash back from idle position (as in instantly dashing to the left while facing right and vice versa) supposed to be such a damn chore? I've asked about this before but I've trying to get this consistent and for whatever reason it just doesn't seem to work, I've tried 4 different controllers (including 2 that have practically never been touched before) but for whatever reason I still get the occasional hiccup where Marth won't instantly dash back but instead go through this small turnaround animation before transitioning into a dash. Even when I smack the control stick as hard as I can possible manage the results are inconsistent.

You have to get the stick to the dash zone (just about all the way to the wall) in 1 frame or else you'll do a turnaround dash. It's not easy and it takes a lot of practice to do, but it's really useful to learn because with it you can do some cool movement. I would keep trying. Try not to smash back on your stick with so much force. If you do that you'll build up bad input discipline and have a hard time retaining the muscle memory, plus it's bad for your hand in general. Focus on keeping your thumb relaxed and flexible and just move the stick as fast as you can. Yes, you should hear an audible "click" sound but your thumb should still be relaxed and not pressing in on your stick too hard. It IS very controller dependent, and it's hard to get it down 100%, but I'll try and help by listing some ways you can practice this.

Ways to implement/practice this:

• Fast fall empty short hops on FD and then right as you land do the backwards dash. Do it back and forth in both directions. Start slowly and build up speed until you can do it without any gaps in input.
• Do a SHFFL F-air, then dash backward as soon as you hit the ground. This can be particularly useful, for example, with avoiding or even baiting shield grabs. Practice the timing difference between hitting nothing and hitting an opponent.
• Wavedash backwards into the backwards dash. Repeat this movement on a stage by yourself and see how many times in a row you can do it without getting the turn. This is a good movement option in general and you can work it into your game.Do a run cancel (crouch out of run) D-tilt, then dash backwards out of the IASA frames. For some reason, doing this helped me get the stick movement down a lot. You can practice repeating this in both directions like the above drill as well.
• Dashing forward and then quickly dashing backwards right after is a way to circumvent the difficulty of doing it from the idle position, but you can get caught by things during this tiny forward dash so it's technically optimal to learn to do both. Hope this helps any!

Does anybody find their Bair is their least used aerial or is it just me.

I think it's technically used the least out of all of Marth's aerials. I most commonly use it in edgeguarding, but it also has its uses in comboing to F-air for Ken combos and such. It's a really odd move so being creative with it is hard. Another thing I've done before is use it right after a retreating dash to smack a Fox flying at me with N-air.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ Dr Peepee , I know you said you'd "ideally" be going to TB5, but as it's already hit it's cap, I have a very important question: are you going to TBH5?

 

[Dr Peepee]

well the miom blog says the cap could re-open, but at this moment i am not prepared to register to go. im getting better every day so maybe ill make it, maybe i wont

 

[The Maven]

Does anybody find their Bair is their least used aerial or is it just me.

I guess that makes sense: it covers Marth's back sorta well, but why would you ever intentionally put your back to your opponent?

 

[Dr Peepee]

rudolph makes me inspired to actually learn zoning. i'm hype to see more of him and i think others here should also watch him for that purpose. he's very non-traditional yet effective which is always great to see.

 

[Vino]

@ Dr Peepee Is a dash back from idle position (as in instantly dashing to the left while facing right and vice versa) supposed to be such a damn chore? I've asked about this before but I've trying to get this consistent and for whatever reason it just doesn't seem to work, I've tried 4 different controllers (including 2 that have practically never been touched before) but for whatever reason I still get the occasional hiccup where Marth won't instantly dash back but instead go through this small turnaround animation before transitioning into a dash. Even when I smack the control stick as hard as I can possible manage the results are inconsistent.

It does take a lot of practice (especially when factoring l-cancel/iasa timing) and a stick your comfterble with. If a stick is too lose I often dash too far and if it's too tight I can't do it at all and turn around in place, different sticks require different amounts of force to be put into it. I actually really hate doing it on brand new controllers (I end up turning around in place often).

 

[A_Reverie]

@ FlamingForce another thing that came to mind but is unlikely is if you're using Nintendont on Wii homebrew. There's a toggle in it called "native mode" that you have to enable or else it doesn't emulate sticks properly.

 

[Crawfish]

hey guys,, pp,, i'm having a lot of trouble with neutral. it's depressing
first of all, my dash dancing, is anomalous...it simply doesn't work. all people have to do is walk/run up and touch me and i'm like "what's going on". i'm sorry, but i have no video.
also, when the opponent respawns with invincibility. i have no idea what to do.
i was playing against fox when i noticed this