Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[FE_Hector]

So here's what I got out of this: in order to beat the ICs... don't get hit. It sounds like the whole fair/dtilt strategy is really really straightforwards.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Do retreating aerials, d-tilt, and be prepared for them to roll into you.

 

[SpiderMad]

Didn't Tai have some kind of long post or something on why Marth beats ICs?

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I personally have never met or seen an ics player that actually uses this so I can't tell you from experience on how to combat it, though I imagine that you can either use platforms to move behind them (The only way that he could try to stop this is to make nana do a fh blizzard but that won't lead to a grab or anything big I think.)

I do it sometimes, but Marth can just nair after Nana's blizzard ends and before Popo's starts.

 

[Bones0]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I feel like Marth could just counter blizzard and hit both ICs...

 

[FlamingForce]

Maybe I'm crazy, but I feel like Marth could just counter blizzard and hit both ICs...

I imagine he'd just eat another blizzard hit before the counter blow comes out.

 

[Bones0]

I imagine he'd just eat another blizzard hit before the counter blow comes out.

He's invul for the first 16 frames of the counter attack, and it hits on 14.

 

[FlamingForce]

Wait really

Wow didn't know that lol

I tested it a little, seems to work, you do eat a blizzard hit after the counter blow in most cases but that's a small price.

 

[Bones0]

Wait really

Wow didn't know that lol

I tested it a little, seems to work, you do eat a blizzard hit after the counter blow in most cases but that's a small price.

That's actually better because it gives you a bit of an insurance policy if your counter only hits Nana or something. You can still SDI up/away and jump before you get hit.

 

[FE_Hector]

Also regarding the ICs MU, what do you think is the best way to get them separated? We don't have tools like a Shine or a Knee, so it'll probably be considerably harder for us. That's my biggest worry about the MU.

 

[Shchoo]

Also regarding the ICs MU, what do you think is the best way to get them separated? We don't have tools like a Shine or a Knee, so it'll probably be considerably harder for us. That's my biggest worry about the MU.

Sometimes you can uptilt them if they approach, or if you get a hard read. Uptilting just one IC is a good way to separate nana, in my experience. Pretty situational and I assume a competent ICs would not be caught by it though.

 

[FE_Hector]

Sometimes you can uptilt them if they approach, or if you get a hard read. Uptilting just one IC is a good way to separate nana, in my experience. Pretty situational and I assume a competent ICs would not be caught by it though.

So for the most part we don't really have tools to separate them? We've just gotta use the PPMD-approved fair/dtilt wall outs and combo when possible. Alright, I think I can deal with that.

 

[Shchoo]

So for the most part we don't really have tools to separate them? We've just gotta use the PPMD-approved fair/dtilt wall outs and combo when possible. Alright, I think I can deal with that.

Yeah it's actually still solid, cause separation isn't as important if they cant get in in the first place. One thing I would also recommend, but don't see done too often, (not for separation, just for the MU) is when Popo goes offstage to upB nana back, he is actually a little vulnerable, as he will be below nana. Throwing a fair at him when he's in this position means nana will be above him, and he won't be able to upB back to stage, and likely gets you the kill.

Tl;Dr not enough people seem to punish ICs upB

 

[FE_Hector]

Yeah it's actually still solid, cause separation isn't as important if they cant get in in the first place. One thing I would also recommend, but don't see done too often, (not for separation, just for the MU) is when Popo goes offstage to upB nana back, he is actually a little vulnerable, as he will be below nana. Throwing a fair at him when he's in this position means nana will be above him, and he won't be able to upB back to stage, and likely gets you the kill.

Tl;Dr not enough people seem to punish ICs upB

That's something I'd already planned on doing whenever I encountered ICs. If they can't get back up, you can almost definitely kill one of them during the upB. It seems so easy.

 

[Shchoo]

So for the most part we don't really have tools to separate them? We've just gotta use the PPMD-approved fair/dtilt wall outs and combo when possible. Alright, I think I can deal with that.

You could also sometimes get FSmash to connect on just nana if popo shields, but I'm not sure how reliable it is, and its super punishable obviously.

 

[FE_Hector]

You could also sometimes get FSmash to connect on just nana if popo shields, but I'm not sure how reliable it is, and its super punishable obviously.

That's something I'd generally not risk.

 

[Shchoo]

That's something I'd generally not risk.

Yeah it's been working for me against one of my friends (IC main) but it's probably just that I know how he plays and he isn't shielding early enough, or nana would have her shield up and it would be an easy grab.

 

[FE_Hector]

Yeah it's been working for me against one of my friends (IC main) but it's probably just that I know how he plays and he isn't shielding early enough, or nana would have her shield up and it would be an easy grab.

Yeah, there's an ICs player in NC ranked 6th on our PRs. I'd prefer not to make unsafe options based more on reads than anything else.

 

[FlamingForce]

That's actually better because it gives you a bit of an insurance policy if your counter only hits Nana or something. You can still SDI up/away and jump before you get hit.

Keep in mind tho that Popo can shield while Nana blizzards and punish the counter

 

[Siccamende]

Hey guys,

I've been theorizing a little but recently and I've come to a cool idea that people can punish spacies for. On Battlefield (Or maybe other stages), Marth goes for a U-air Techchase on a platform, but misses the timing. Falco spot dodges and usually punishes with D-air Shine/whatever. Instead of letting that happen, Marth could Light Shield by Grabbing and holding Z. Consequently, with enough window of frame time, Falco hits the light shield and Marth pushes away, going to the centre stage and resetting Neutral. I think it could be useful in Lower skilled matches. One last thing, you can WD OoLS, but it's awkward to hold it in the right place. I think people should test this in 20XX just to be sure it's true, because I pulled it off once in a match.

 

[Shchoo]

Hey guys,

I've been theorizing a little but recently and I've come to a cool idea that people can punish spacies for. On Battlefield (Or maybe other stages), Marth goes for a U-air Techchase on a platform, but misses the timing. Falco spot dodges and usually punishes with D-air Shine/whatever. Instead of letting that happen, Marth could Light Shield by Grabbing and holding Z. Consequently, with enough window of frame time, Falco hits the light shield and Marth pushes away, going to the centre stage and resetting Neutral. I think it could be useful in Lower skilled matches. One last thing, you can WD OoLS, but it's awkward to hold it in the right place. I think people should test this in 20XX just to be sure it's true, because I pulled it off once in a match.

Are you saying instead of going for Uair, you just whiff a grap > bufferred light shield? Or, land from the Uair and light shield?

 

[FE_Hector]

Hey guys,

I've been theorizing a little but recently and I've come to a cool idea that people can punish spacies for. On Battlefield (Or maybe other stages), Marth goes for a U-air Techchase on a platform, but misses the timing. Falco spot dodges and usually punishes with D-air Shine/whatever. Instead of letting that happen, Marth could Light Shield by Grabbing and holding Z. Consequently, with enough window of frame time, Falco hits the light shield and Marth pushes away, going to the centre stage and resetting Neutral. I think it could be useful in Lower skilled matches. One last thing, you can WD OoLS, but it's awkward to hold it in the right place. I think people should test this in 20XX just to be sure it's true, because I pulled it off once in a match.

The Uair should be SHFFL'd, and honestly if you mess up your timing it's your fault. Overall, I don't think it's actually a good idea.

 

[Siccamende]

Are you saying instead of going for Uair, you just whiff a grap > bufferred light shield? Or, land from the Uair and light shield?

You SHFFL the U-air. To be honest, I just thought of it just in case for newer players to have something they can lean onto, you know?

 

[FE_Hector]

Ehh, I'm not particularly for incorporating tech that only works at low levels. It'll become a mentality and end up being a habit you've gotta break.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I tend to avoid using low-level tactics against bad players ever, even if I know that it will work. Hector has a good point. It will ultimately train you to use those tactics habitually (unless you have extremely good understanding of your own mind and psychology and are very intentional about why you choose your options in a match).

Edit: there was a point in time when I forced myself to never f-smash in neutral, just to prevent it from becoming a deep-rooted habit. Now I do it all the time, and it's often a stupid idea. But at least it isn't a habit as it could have been.

 

[FE_Hector]

Like ChivalRuse said, I had a time when my strategy was 2 things: fsmash and Counter. Those habits took me so long to break, but I'm way better due to it.

 

[Siccamende]

Yeah, that's a fair argument. But what about WD OoLS? That could be kinda interesting

 

[FE_Hector]

Depends on shield stun and shield push, but WD Oo any shield is generally a fine idea. Just don't get screwed over by abusing it. A lot of the time, fair OoS can work just fine.

 

[Shchoo]

Depends on shield stun and shield push, but WD Oo any shield is generally a fine idea. Just don't get screwed over by abusing it. A lot of the time, fair OoS can work just fine.

Retreating fair OoS is amazing. Also WD OoS -> dtilt is alot of fun, if your opponent tries to approach

 

[Shchoo]

You SHFFL the U-air. To be honest, I just thought of it just in case for newer players to have something they can lean onto, you know?

Also, upon further thinking about the technique, I definitely feel like if you get the chance for UAir chase, resetting to neutral isn't really a good option, as opposed to just ensuring you can get the hit, or following up with a utilt or something.

 

[FE_Hector]

Also, upon further thinking about the technique, I definitely feel like if you get the chance for UAir chase, resetting to neutral isn't really a good option, as opposed to just ensuring you can get the hit, or following up with a utilt or something.

Actually, that's something like what I'll do. If they land on one of the side platforms, I don't always SHFFL uair. I mixup whether I chosse to SHFFL uair, FH nair (generally only at higher %s or if I'm far away), or utilt.

 

[Stride]

I've been theorizing a little but recently and I've come to a cool idea that people can punish spacies for. On Battlefield (Or maybe other stages), Marth goes for a U-air Techchase on a platform, but misses the timing. Falco spot dodges and usually punishes with D-air Shine/whatever. Instead of letting that happen, Marth could Light Shield by Grabbing and holding Z. Consequently, with enough window of frame time, Falco hits the light shield and Marth pushes away, going to the centre stage and resetting Neutral. I think it could be useful in Lower skilled matches..

Why wouldn't you just dash out of the way (and then dash-dance grab, or fair, or nair, etc.)? That's better than lightshielding in every way I can think of, regardless of the level of the opponent.

Shielding doesn't really help you; it would be a last resort if you don't have time to move out of the way of an aerial from the platform (which you should have in most cases; certainly for spotdodge->platform drop dair) and don't want to risk up tilting. You're not even resetting to neutral since you just end up under shield pressure, and I agree with what Shchoo said about not wanting to reset to neutral anyway. Resetting to neutral is exactly what the opponent wants when they're stuck on a platform above you; you're more than capable of pushing your advantage (staying by platform and punishing the opponent for dropping through/jumping/shielding). This applies to both lightshielding and hardshielding, but it's worse with lightshielding because you can't do anything with all the shieldstun (which is more than double that of a hardshield).

If the Falco does a shield drop dair after you hit his shield, you are able to dash-dance grab his landing lag if you can dash away after an optimally late SHFFL up aerial; if you try to dash towards/through him, then you will end up being hit. With an earlier up aerial, he's able to hit you during your fall/landing lag/dash away (I didn't test very thoroughly at all so I can't say exactly how much earlier, but the window for avoiding the dair seems reasonably large). This is with jumping straight up from below and slightly to the side of Falco; if you were jumping to sideways and past him then in most cases you'd be out of range of his falling aerial before you land, and regardless you'd have a larger window to dash away.

One last thing, you can WD OoLS, but it's awkward to hold it in the right place. I think people should test this in 20XX just to be sure it's true, because I pulled it off once in a match.

You can definitely wavedash out of a lightshield even when wavedashing with the same trigger you're shielding with. Between the huge pushback and huge shieldstun you won't be able to punish much out of it though.

 

[Siccamende]

Why wouldn't you just dash out of the way (and then dash-dance grab, or fair, or nair, etc.)? That's better than lightshielding in every way I can think of, regardless of the level of the opponent.

Shielding doesn't really help you; it would be a last resort if you don't have time to move out of the way of an aerial from the platform (which you should have in most cases; certainly for spotdodge->platform drop dair) and don't want to risk up tilting. You're not even resetting to neutral since you just end up under shield pressure, and I agree with what Shchoo said about not wanting to reset to neutral anyway. Resetting to neutral is exactly what the opponent wants when they're stuck on a platform above you; you're more than capable of pushing your advantage (staying by platform and punishing the opponent for dropping through/jumping/shielding). This applies to both lightshielding and hardshielding, but it's worse with lightshielding because you can't do anything with all the shieldstun (which is more than double that of a hardshield).

If the Falco does a shield drop dair after you hit his shield, you are able to dash-dance grab his landing lag if you can dash away after an optimally late SHFFL up aerial; if you try to dash towards/through him, then you will end up being hit unless you shield. With an earlier up aerial, he's able to hit you during your fall/landing lag/dash away (I didn't test very thoroughly so I can't say exactly how much earlier; the window for avoiding the dair seems reasonably large).


You can definitely wavedash out of a lightshield even when wavedashing with the same trigger you're shielding with. Between the huge pushback and huge shieldstun you won't be able to punish much out of it though.

Well, it was just a thought, I didn't expect it to be amazing or crazy. But I understand now why it wouldn't be that good of an option anyway.

 

[Sempai]

Like ChivalRuse said, I had a time when my strategy was 2 things: fsmash and Counter. Those habits took me so long to break, but I'm way better due to it.

Naturally as a Marth player they are your enemies hehe. I just tell people dont fmash unless you are finishing a combo or edge guarding against a player with one maybe 2 options

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

Yo @ Dr Peepee , in the Marth google doc comp.

(https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8/edit)

It says that you should never Nair against sheik. Idk if you or someone else said this, but what would be the reasoning to not Nair against Sheik? This is probably only talking about the neutral game but still I am wondering.

 

[FE_Hector]

Sheik's ftilt can outspace your nair, so she can really easily handle it. It can be beneficial in other situations, but in neutral it's really risky.

 

[Tee ay eye]

nair is risky when you don't know how to properly use it

beginner marths way overuse it since it has a little more brute force than the rest of his moves, so they try to use it as a poor man's version of fox/falco/falcon nair. it works better than his other aerials in those situations, most definitely, but the problem is that using aerials in those situations at all is not marth's objective as a character.

nair has good uses for zoning (especially with the autocancel), comboing, and some situational uses for "approaching" and certain traps and whatnot, but again, the thing a lot of people forget is that you don't really get to open up a lot of these situations unless you already have a solid basis of play for all of marth's other silliness

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

sure, But i mean using a fade away AC nair against sheik if she tries to go in with a boost grab/dash attack at her effective range is perfectly acceptable right? I've had success doing this vs sheik and i was just wondering what the reasoning behind never Nairing vs sheik would be.

 

[FE_Hector]

That sounds pretty good. Personally I prefer SH Double Fair (L-Canceled) if I'm going to wall out a Sheik. However, AC nairs can definitely be an option if you know what they're going to be oding. My biggest thing against that is that they could read it because nair is sorta slow.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you don't approach with Nair and it's spaced decently far away so it covers approaches, then it's fine. Don't use Nair to approach or when close is probably a better rule I'd say.