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Generally how my sets go against fox is we'll go to Battlefield game one, and then Yoshis game 2, and then PS, pretty much regardless of who won which games, obviously unless they don't ban FD. I'll probably start trying to go PS game two if I lose game one, then let them take me to yoshis game 3 cause I still prefer it over DL
Makes sense. I've also been trying to work on my Falco as a co-main or secondary, so it'll make the stage selection a little different of course, like, I could let sheiks take me to FD and just CP falco because I love playing him on that stage, and am not as confident in the Marth Sheik MU.
It really depends on how the ICs react to it or where they get sent off to. A good option that not many know about is just walking after the d tilt hits and doing another lol. Walking makes it so you can easily hit with the tipper and even if they shield, you will be safe.
Dr Peepee
I'm having a lot of trouble with the shiek matchup. My training partners brother always beats me with sheik(even though I'm significantly better than him). He's like a really defensive sheik, so my usual strategy of applying pressure and drawing out dash attacks and grabs doesn't work. Everytime I attack he always bats me away with an f-tilt and I just can't seem to get around it. Help please?
It'd be much easier to help you out if you posted a video or something similar (and there's thread for that). If you are constantly being beaten by f-tilt, try crouch canceling more and spacing with d tilt or baiting him into doing preemptive f-tilts.Hey @
You are probably exaggerating, but if he ftilts you every time you run/jump at him, you can use this as a bait and punish in a similar fashion to how you punish dash attacks or wiffed grabs. For example, jump at him like you do when you fair, but pull back a bit and don't fair so his ftilt wiffs (if you are perfectly spacing fair, you might not need to pull back). Once you land, dash forward and grab. Sheik's ftilt has 17 frames of ending lag.Hey @
If you both play defensively, one of you's going to have to take the offense. You said that your normal strategy of applying pressure doesn't work. Marth has very few legit pressure tools, but pretty much every one of them outspaces anything that Sheik can throw out (especially since she has to be standing to ftilt). I've talked a good bit before about Marth's DD game in terms of the neutral. Especially if your opponent isn't nearly as good as you are, then pay attention to your use of DDs and WDs. Faster movement like that can mess up most people. Remember that you have dtilt, grab, and to a lesser extent in this MU, SHFFL fair to threaten with. Juggling her with uair isn't terribly difficult, and while her recovery is rather odd, Marth's edgeguards are more than capable of handling her. In my opinion, the MU is probably 60-40 in Sheik's favor until you hit super top-level play, where it reaches 50-50, but don't let it daunt you. I'm quite a lot better than my bro (also a Sheik main), but he still beats me with fair regularity. Don't lose hope, just learn her tools.Hey @
It's hard to get defensive Sheik to approach you. You have to poke her into doing it or beat her straight up for hanging back. If you know she won't dash attack, then you can actually DD really close to her. This allows you to DD grab her Ftilt or space Fair(you have to space it really well and account for her walking forward into it sometimes but if you miss it's okay). You also have the option of run cancel/WD dtilt but since you'd be closer than normal you'd probably only need WD Dtilt as it doesn't go as far(and I think it's a little faster). Also you can actually just Fsmash if Sheik is just sitting more or less in place and doing Ftilt.Hey @
Dr Peepee
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Dr Peepee
Dr Peepee
, when you get grabbed? She'll most likely go for the dthrow, unless of course she can throw you off-stage. And depending on %, the DI should alter somewhat. I guess I don't really understand my options when she gets that dthrow, because I end up just kinda panicking and throwing out some random DI that gets me caught into like a million ftilts to up or fthrow to tech chased regrab to offstage death. Is it better to save my jump rather than lose it trying to jump away from her, or should I jump up and find myself way above her? Then what? If I DI up, back, or forward, what are the possible outcomes, and how will Sheik decide to chase me down? I also have a hard time vs Sheik in general; it seems I never know when the right moment is to be airborne vs stay on the ground.
Dr Peepee
vs Plup at Evo and do some study on it while I read all your answers. Maybe you can give me some specifics in that set to look at too, PPMD. Or other sets to watch that are relevant to our time period.
It can be used pretty well for extending DDs and messing up your opponent. Also, Marth's Dash Attack has the lunge forwards regardless of your speed, provided you're in dash or run animations, so you can get the weird dash forwards out of an almost stationary Marth using foxtrots.
Great post. I didn't realize until reading it, but the idea about fsmash creating stable situations is something I certainly agree with. Its something that is pretty apparent in lower level play, especially lower level Marth dittoes, but seems to kind of fall by the wayside pretty quickly. I am just thinking about all the time I feel most in control of neutral, and its when my fsmash is threatening enough to create that wall you see in lower level matches. Like you said, obviously the wall becomes more theoretical, the more they can punish you for missing/getting blocked, but its still very much there and I think it is important to let it rock if they are getting too cute. Without that threat, I think it can be hard to corner pressure/cover the landing of some characters, and it certainly becomes easier if you can establish it. I also think pivot fsmash can be useful in covering landings because you can very quickly both position your hurtbox to force whiffs and/or call their path with a tipper, which can be a relatively soft read in some situations with very good reward.one thing i've been thinking about a good amount lately as a result of some old talks with forward and some recent marth sheik games i've had with him is the idea of "low APM" (his words) play and the role of the raw fsmash in marth's game.
the first thing i noticed from our games is that he definitely had the upper hand in the little micro-situations where the game gets slowed down. i'm no stranger to these situations and generally feel pretty comfortable in them, but basically, it always felt like his defense was impenetrable and he would generally be able to safely push in on me until he was able to force one of his sheiky aggressive mixups. basically, his position would always be more stable than mine, and it's because he's better at the slow-game than i am due to years and years of FG and smash experience through the ages >_> anyway, i'm trying to fix that by working on my own low-APM game, so let's talk about the role of fsmash in marth's neutral-gamey exchanges.
OBVIOUSLY, it's bad to spam fsmash. it's bad to rely on it in neutral. it's (in theory) bad to use as a hail-mary guess. YES, you generally need to poke, prod, and create small advantages using your dtilt pokes, aerial walls, movements, blah blah blah. however, the thing about f-smash is that it's his most.... egregiously unbeatable move. so the idea is basically to position yourself in a way that IF your opponent wants to get to you, they need to go through your f-smash. in other words, positions where you can safely abuse the constant threat of fsmash are "stable" just... for that very reason. they are positions where your opponent needs to respect your fsmash and therefore can't act too brashly. so basically, you can do a LOT with marth's movement to make this happen. you can obviously do this with large, aggressive movements in neutral (the dash away -> WD back in to mixup between f-smash and grab is one of the most CLASSIC Marth examples), but the thing i'm focusing on is using smaller movements and really fine control to explore what advantages i can create with that spacing, for example, walking, WD in place/baby WD, Cactus dash, etc. learning to control marth on a low-APM level also creates HUGE benefits for your punish game because it allows you to set up really devastating tech-chases and corner traps. and basically, having this MICRO-SITUATIONAL stability will allow you to more safely and reliably push forward in a MACRO-SITUATIONAL sense.
and then there's the layer of actually... SWINGING on the f-smash. i need to go to work in 45 minutes and don't want to talk too long about it, but basically, i think it's good to swing on the f-smash sometimes, ESPECIALLY when you get good at evaluating situations for whether the f-smash is a favorable or unfavorable gamble. but in general, if the opponent is in the corner, in the air, making really telegraphed aggressive movements, etc, the expected value of your raw fsmash is WAY higher. and obviously, you can train yourself to react to some things or common situations and punish with f-smash.
so, that stuff is pretty swell in a vacuum. however, we also need to consider the benefits you get when you think about it in the grand scheme of marth's game, forcing the opponent to act with respect to your fsmash opens up an ENTIRE WORLD of opportunities with your movement, walling, and poking. you're marth. do marth stuff to them.
i suppose this idea isn't very new at all, but this is how i've been trying to use the ideas in my actual gameplay. thoughts, @
OH, i've also been thinking a little more about the types of movements to use when you want to press forward vs when you want to retreat. but BASICALLY, the thing i kinda realized is that you need to use shorter, safer movements when you are trying to press forward with dtilt (as i said earlier, walk, WD in place, baby WD, and in general, just understanding what spacings/movements you can safely dtilt with), since you need to REALLY be careful not to overextend since you're moving into their space. so basically, the idea is to press forward with pin-point accuracy as much as you know you can. and when you're retreating, you have the liberty to take bigger movements since you're moving to somewhere more safe, but obviously, you don't want to move back too far as well, and there's things you can do to vary your WD length and aahhhhh Melee is so good. However, I was thinking about this because I remember watching Plup's Samus with Taj and he made a note about how well Plup was using WD back -> walk forward.
Dr Peepee
I'm pretty sure he said that he prefers PS over FD in the Fox MU because the platforms give him a bit of leniency if he messes up his CGs, and the slightly larger stage makes defense easier.@
Not sure if you've answered this question before, but how come you didn't take Armada's Fox to FD at Apex or Evo? Were you not comfortable using that CP at the time or is it a more inherent, player vs. player decision?
Also, I was watching your sets vs. Hugs at Evo and I noticed that you almost never used dtilt. However, during your last encounter at Apex it seemed to be getting you a lot of mileage. Was there a reason for this? Did Hugs change up his strategy making dtilt harder to use?
Evo I didn't take him there because I was playing so poorly I knew I'd miss all of my CGs so I opted for going for some easier platform combos instead.@
Not sure if you've answered this question before, but how come you didn't take Armada's Fox to FD at Apex or Evo? Were you not comfortable using that CP at the time or is it a more inherent, player vs. player decision?
Also, I was watching your sets vs. Hugs at Evo and I noticed that you almost never used dtilt. However, during your last encounter at Apex it seemed to be getting you a lot of mileage. Was there a reason for this? Did Hugs change up his strategy making dtilt harder to use?
PoppaSquat
One goal every Marth main should have is to develop their game far enough to where they can overcome situations like this. Marth has every tool necessary to accomplish this but it's something that can only be developed through years of tournament experience. This is personally my ultimate goal.@
The CP war with Falcon is about the same as PPMD described as it is against Fox. If they love playing defensively, don't let them go to DL because they'll just wreck you. Also, FD is a pretty risky choice if their combo game is on point. If they're playing aggro, YS will probably turn against you really quickly, so probably go for BF or I suppose FD for the first game, and then choose your next stage wisely if you lose.
Although this seems like a very simple concept, @
Dr Peepee
is saying something very insightful here that everyone can learn from. Counterpicking Fox to FD seems like bread and butter, optimal decision making but there are times that it's perfectly okay to opt out of it, whether you win or lose, simply based on how well you know yourself and your own play.
If he's over-shooting nairs, try dashing under him. Marth's dash will let you go right under the first hit of Falcon's nair, meaning they either have to catch you with the second hit, or delay the first hit until much later. Either way, it means Falcon has to wait for a bit out of his short hop before he can actually hit you, which makes avoiding his aerials much easier.
Nicholas1024
It depends on the Falcon. NCs #1 player* is a Falcon main, but we've also got some that really suck or are really good, but overshooting nairs definitely something to look for.There are two ways I'd look at this:
This is the wrong approach to take against Falcon. Falcon's SH dash Nair range is absolutely massive, and if you give him that much space, he'll simply use it to run circles around you, back you up against the ledge, and then hit you with a nair or knee anyway.
Falcon's sh nair is the main reason the matchup is pretty even imo. Falcon really needs it to establish his space and start his combos. He would have a rough go at getting solid hits on Marth without it, and it really extends his DD threat to stupid lengths against Marth because you can't punish him very well (if at all) if it hits the back of your shield, beats dash away soundly unless you have the spacing to cover yourself with bair or something risky like side b (probably giving up tons of stage even if it hits) or doing a very tight input like pivot fair, and I don't like the numbers game trying to stuff it on a consistent basis when they have center stage because fair's short duration makes it so you have to give up alot of ground in order to space properly and you can get hit out of nair pretty easily unless you are moving forward with it, which is pretty bad on whiff/block/cc. You wouldn't have to respect Falcon nearly as much without his SH nair, and could work from much more favorable spacing while he is only left with aerials that are much more punishable and harder to connect. Marth doesn't really have great answers to sh nair provided Falcon is using them well. The only real consistent solution (other than pvp interactions that always apply like baiting), in my mind, is to shut it down before it is established by forcing situations in which it doesn't cover much stage and punishing the hell out of him in order to negate some of the potential losses you take on in having to challenge it, because if you can't challenge it on occasion, then he will be in control of neutral most of the game.
1. CC falcon's nair more
2. But he cant shine
