Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Comet7]

your movement is probably predictable. try to work on mixing up your dash dancing, wavedashes, etc... also make sure that people respect marth's tools, because if you don't use them, there's no reason to respect them.

 

[Bones0]

Dashdancing isn't some trick that either works or doesn't work. It's just what we refer to when a player utilizes a sequence of alternating dashes. If the opponent is simply walking towards you, why are you dashing at all? Only dash if you have a reason, not because it's what you see pros doing a lot. Once you understand the reasons to use dashes, you won't be confused when it doesn't work.

 

[A_Reverie]

all people have to do is walk/run up and touch me.
i was playing against fox when i noticed this

I would suggest slowing down. Simply put, I mean try not to spend too much energy thinking about dashing back and forth quickly. You'll be too busy thinking about movement. Instead, slow down and think about what you can do: react to their approach.

If you start dash dancing and your opponent comes at you with an attack, instead of focusing on dash dancing instead focus on what you can do to make your opponent pay for his approach. Gather some data. What attacks does your opponent like to do and what can you do to beat it? What does your opponent do when you do certain things, like giving them stage?

On the other side of the coin, what can you do with your movement to mess them up? How do they react to your pokes? Every player has to respect Marth's ability to cover space, even without him putting out an attack. This fear of the sword can be a great advantage. You can do things like short hop fast fall waveland to see how they react to your jump. The short hop fast fall carries the inherent threat of a SHFFL F-air. You can try to feel out how they react to this threat. For example if they like to shield, you can do a tomahawk grab. You can play mindgames like conditioning them to react to your empty hop and punish this with an actual SHFFL F-air.

None of this is guaranteed. It takes a lot of practice to execute this kind of thinking, and it's something you NEVER stop getting good at. The best way to learn is to play against others, but you can practice some of this stuff by yourself as well. @ Dr Peepee has mentioned "shadowboxing" in the past and this is a way to apply that. Rehearse different scenarios. Ask yourself quesitons like "What should I do when Fox runs in and does a SHFFL N-air?" Imagine this happening and put out a retreating F-air, for example. Your dash dance is where you transition from in these situations. With that in mind, you can put a lot more work into how you use dash dance.

also, when the opponent respawns with invincibility. i have no idea what to do.

You have several options here. Depending on the stage, you can use platforms to help wait out the duration of invincibility, but make sure you don't use the same movement pattern too often, or your opponent can predict you and punish. Another thing you can do is use your movement to cross them up as they land from the platform and then escape. Sometimes you can cross them up more than once, baiting something laggy, and go for something like a grab. The invincibility really doesn't last long, but this is very difficult to do effectively and it can get you killed if you're not careful. Try watching some tournament matches and see how pros use cross up and platforms.

 

[FE_Hector]

hey guys,, pp,, i'm having a lot of trouble with neutral. it's depressing
first of all, my dash dancing, is anomalous...it simply doesn't work. all people have to do is walk/run up and touch me and i'm like "what's going on". i'm sorry, but i have no video.
also, when the opponent respawns with invincibility. i have no idea what to do.
i was playing against fox when i noticed this

Dash Dances should all start off with a high level of respect, especially if it's a Marth that's DDing. However, if they try an approach and don't get punished for it, it's super easy for the DD to lose all of its respect. Marth has three stereotypical tools out of his DD: grab, fair, and dtilt. If you don't threaten your opponent with all three of these and make them regret doing unsafe crap, then your DD will lose the respect that it started with and you'll just get punished for predictability and no reactions.

One thing you always have to do is DD with a purpose. You shouldn't be moving just to move. You should be aiming for something in particular. Typically, my DD consists of making it look like I'm about to do something unsafe to bait out an approach from my opponent, and then punishing them for it, usually with a grab. Once you start something, do your best to avoid dropping it unless it's totally unsafe.

My best example was at tourney this last Saturday: I was taken to game 3 by a Fox main, and he was up a stock and a half on me. I realized, however, what I was doing wrong. I didn't have quite enough patience or foresight. Whenever I went in on him, he punished me with a drill shine usmash then started stringing uairs on me. In order to bait this out for his last two stocks, I made him uncomfortable by DDing pretty close to him in order to bait out his approach, then WDd out of the way and got a grab. His last stock, that grab let me take him from 0-death. Because my DD had a purpose (disguising my intentions to grab him and making myself harder to hit), I was able to take the set.

If the opponent has invincibility from their angel platform, as I call it, you've gotta respect it. Do some basic evasive maneuvers. Take your side of the stage and guard it jealously. DD to make yourself harder to hit, WD out of the way in rough situations, and look at what they're doing. Especially if you're at a higher %, opponents will fish for unsafe kill moves when they have their invincibility because they can't really be punished for it. If you know you can, it might be a good idea to just take the edge and stall on it for a little bit. My bro (main training partner), has no way to handle my ledgehop delayed fair if I do it properly, so I typically just stall out his invincibility and take it back to the neutral.

@ Dr Peepee , Anything I missed?

 

[Shchoo]

Possibly useful tech/ mixup?

I have found that as a mixup to SH double fair, I can SH immediate fair, so it looks like I will do the double fair, but then fast fall into waveland forward or back, could this be a useful mixup or is it to risky to put myself into that kind of situation?

 

[FE_Hector]

Possibly useful tech/ mixup?

I have found that as a mixup to SH double fair, I can SH immediate fair, so it looks like I will do the double fair, but then fast fall into waveland forward or back, could this be a useful mixup or is it to risky to put myself into that kind of situation?

That's existed for a while, it's just a bit underused. It's definitely a good mixup, though.

 

[A_Reverie]

Possibly useful tech/ mixup?

I have found that as a mixup to SH double fair, I can SH immediate fair, so it looks like I will do the double fair, but then fast fall into waveland forward or back, could this be a useful mixup or is it to risky to put myself into that kind of situation?

Keep in mind that rising F-air is rather unsafe and loses to a run in grab or shield grab if you use it too close.

 

[FE_Hector]

Keep in mind that rising F-air is rather unsafe and loses to a run in grab or shield grab if you use it too close.

Not everybody knows the timing for SH Double Fair, so they may try to react late (after the second fair), so they can grab you as soon as you land. However, the WL back makes sure that you can avoid the grab they try to go and get. Basically, like everything else, it's a mixup.

 

[Shchoo]

Not everybody knows the timing for SH Double Fair, so they may try to react late (after the second fair), so they can grab you as soon as you land. However, the WL back makes sure that you can avoid the grab they try to go and get. Basically, like everything else, it's a mixup.

Yeah I was thinking mostly use it after I had already hit a few double fairs, or just like, double fair wall them from afar, then, when they get used to it, do the rising fair WD back dtilt, or WD forward grab? Just trying to keep things fresh

 

[FE_Hector]

Yeah I was thinking mostly use it after I had already hit a few double fairs, or just like, double fair wall them from afar, then, when they get used to it, do the rising fair WD back dtilt, or WD forward grab? Just trying to keep things fresh

Waveland back is way better than WD back in this case, but yeah, just a mixup. You shouldn't be relying too much on one option ever

 

[Crawfish]

@ FE_Hector & @ A_Reverie
i actually took note of his nair approaches and started using fair to stuff it and it was working! but then it stopped. either i was missing the timing or spacing or something but i can't remember i always see dtilt out of dash dance...how? i know, it must sound stupid, but i never seem to have room to use dtilt like that.
i'll try doing what you guys said the next chance i get. i'll let you know how i do

another question i have is when fox jumps around on the platforms(mainly, the top one) what should i be doing. i know being above marth is supposed to be bad, but i just never manage to accomplish much in that situation.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ FE_Hector & @ A_Reverie
i actually took note of his nair approaches and started using fair to stuff it and it was working! but then it stopped. either i was missing the timing or spacing or something but i can't remember i always see dtilt out of dash dance...how? i know, it must sound stupid, but i never seem to have room to use dtilt like that.
i'll try doing what you guys said the next chance i get. i'll let you know how i do

another question i have is when fox jumps around on the platforms(mainly, the top one) what should i be doing. i know being above marth is supposed to be bad, but i just never manage to accomplish much in that situation.

Dtilt out of DD is going to have some form of WD to stop the DD. It's the exact number of unactionable frames for WD in place, forwards, or behind, so it's all good no matter what. If Fox (or anybody) is above you, uair or utilt. Just hit them and don't drop it. If they're switching plats really fast, find their pattern and go where they're gonna end up being

 

[The Leaf]

@ FE_Hector & @ A_Reverie
i actually took note of his nair approaches and started using fair to stuff it and it was working! but then it stopped. either i was missing the timing or spacing or something but i can't remember i always see dtilt out of dash dance...how? i know, it must sound stupid, but i never seem to have room to use dtilt like that.
i'll try doing what you guys said the next chance i get. i'll let you know how i do

another question i have is when fox jumps around on the platforms(mainly, the top one) what should i be doing. i know being above marth is supposed to be bad, but i just never manage to accomplish much in that situation.

Top platforms of Battlefield and DreamLand are a bit harder to threaten safely, but SH Uair catches them or at least stops them from coming down directly. On FoD and YS, FH Fair/Bair are both good depending on how they're moving and where you're moving to. Fair is usually better if they're staying on the platform since it's faster and safer on shield, but tipper bair is a really strong option if you can catch them jumping to a side platform since it forces them to play really close to the edge of the stage giving huge positional advantages. Committing to FHs on Battlefield and DL usually isn't a good idea, especially now that shield dropping is becoming common (shield dropping also messes up the FH fair on YS/FoD :/ ). Nairing where they will land on a side platform is a very good option too, but requires a bit of a read.

Dtilt is actually really easy to get the hang of once you understand its value. It's Marth's strongest and safest anti-ground tool. WD in with it to catch people dashing back. When the dtilt connects, you have a ton of advantages you can take based on your opponent. By nature, dtilt forces a reaction, similar to "The Scuffle" as Scar and Toph put it, where neither character has frame advantage but are both trying to take advantage, unable to completely react to all options (unlike neutral). Most Marth's like to go for the somewhat free grab follow up, but more experienced players will jump, spotdodge, or roll to avoid it. This is where the mixups come into play. After dtilt, Fair/Nair are extremely useful to beat spotdodge and jump, but may lose stage positioning or get punished by shield or roll. Dash dance grab beats shield and roll, and can beat spotdodge if you read it, but is also the easiest to punish with an aerial or spotdodge shine/grab. A second dtilt (or WD Dtilt) provides amazing safe coverage of most options and gives great stage positioning, but has very little actual percent or edgeguard reward. As Marth it's very important to know how to beat any option your opponent does because you can get punished extremely hard for a missed read or reaction, possibly punished the hardest of all the top 8 characters because you don't have a shine to bail you out if you **** up.

 

[The Maven]

my dash dancing, is anomalous...it simply doesn't work. all people have to do is walk/run up and touch me and i'm like "what's going on"

It sounds like you aren't paying attention to what your opponent's doing.

 

[Sempai]

Keep in mind that rising F-air is rather unsafe and loses to a run in grab or shield grab if you use it too close.

Unless you're beast and close to frame perfect and immediately dash back or behind to make the grab whiff. Not beginner stuff tho hehe. Also the Fair has to be super late.

 

[A_Reverie]

Unless you're beast and close to frame perfect and immediately dash back or behind to make the grab whiff. Not beginner stuff tho hehe. Also the Fair has to be super late.

I was specifically talking about a rising F-air, which will get you punished if overused.

 

[Sempai]

I was specifically talking about a rising F-air, which will get you punished if overused.

rising aerials,(especially whiffed) ugh so bad.

90% of the reason I get hit lol

 

[A_Reverie]

rising aerials,(especially whiffed) ugh so bad.

90% of the reason I get hit lol

Yeah there was a period of time where I'd get dumped on by Sheik because I overused SH Double F-air. I was using it so much I was completely forgetting to use SHFFL F-air. I felt pretty much like the biggest moron ever xD

 

[Sempai]

Yeah there was a period of time where I'd get dumped on by Sheik because I overused SH Double F-air. I was using it so much I was completely forgetting to use SHFFL F-air. I felt pretty much like the biggest moron ever xD

Its a stage we all go through, myself included

 

[Crawfish]

It sounds like you aren't paying attention to what your opponent's doing.

but i only look at the opponent when i play

 

[FE_Hector]

but i only look at the opponent when i play

Just because you're looking at your opponent doesn't mean you know what they're doing/planning. If your opponent is DDing, what are they looking for? Seeing and understanding are two very different concepts, especially in this game.

 

[Shchoo]

Waveland back is way better than WD back in this case, but yeah, just a mixup. You shouldn't be relying too much on one option ever

Oh yeah, I meant Waveland, not WD my bad

 

[FE_Hector]

@ Dr Peepee , I know this sounds like a bit of a ridiculous question, but do you remember what beverage you had in that bottle you were drinking from at Apex? (In my defense, Cactuar didn't make it sound like every question had to be super relevant)

 

[Shchoo]

@ Dr Peepee , I know this sounds like a bit of a ridiculous question, but do you remember what beverage you had in that bottle you were drinking from at Apex? (In my defense, Cactuar didn't make it sound like every question had to be super relevant)

Asking the important questions.

 

[Comet7]

Dtilt out of DD is going to have some form of WD to stop the DD. It's the exact number of unactionable frames for WD in place, forwards, or behind, so it's all good no matter what. If Fox (or anybody) is above you, uair or utilt. Just hit them and don't drop it. If they're switching plats really fast, find their pattern and go where they're gonna end up being

just putting this out there, pivot down tilt out of DD is amazing. pivots are hard to do...but it's still amazing.

 

[lokt]

@ FE_Hector & @ A_Reverie
i actually took note of his nair approaches and started using fair to stuff it and it was working! but then it stopped. either i was missing the timing or spacing or something but i can't remember i always see dtilt out of dash dance...how? i know, it must sound stupid, but i never seem to have room to use dtilt like that.
i'll try doing what you guys said the next chance i get. i'll let you know how i do

another question i have is when fox jumps around on the platforms(mainly, the top one) what should i be doing. i know being above marth is supposed to be bad, but i just never manage to accomplish much in that situation.

You really can't rely on only fair to stuff nair because eventually the fox will just not nair and you'll get hit by uthrow and 3 uairs. You can just dash dance outside of fox's nair range and punish nair accordingly. Of course this changes when you're near the corner or out of position; then you can consider fair/roll/dash dance/crouch/whatever but you should focus on not getting into this position in the first place. If you're unable to dash dance grab nair in neutral you're probably dashing too close to fox or too far from fox which can put you in the corner. when the fox player realizes that he's going to get grabbed for just using nair he will start dash dancing more and try running shine/jab. This is when you can implement dtilt/pivot grab into your game. stuffing fox's nair with fair is more of a plan b for when you whiff a dtilt and are out of position or when you're near the corner.

for platform camping fox you just sh rising fair them when they come down. uair is good against the top platform to keep them honest but even when fox is on the top platform i like sh fair as an anti-air more than uair or utilt because fox will usually come down the side of the platform or shield drop. nair leads to harder punishes than fair and has a lingering hitbox but it covers less space, making it a good option at lower percents to cover the side platforms.

 

[A_Reverie]

You really can't rely on only fair to stuff nair because eventually the fox will just not nair and you'll get hit by uthrow and 3 uairs. You can just dash dance outside of fox's nair range and punish nair accordingly. Of course this changes when you're near the corner or out of position; then you can consider fair/roll/dash dance/crouch/whatever but you should focus on not getting into this position in the first place. If you're unable to dash dance grab nair in neutral you're probably dashing too close to fox or too far from fox which can put you in the corner. when the fox player realizes that he's going to get grabbed for just using nair he will start dash dancing more and try running shine/jab. This is when you can implement dtilt/pivot grab into your game. stuffing fox's nair with fair is more of a plan b for when you whiff a dtilt and are out of position or when you're near the corner.

for platform camping fox you just sh rising fair them when they come down. uair is good against the top platform to keep them honest but even when fox is on the top platform i like sh fair as an anti-air more than uair or utilt because fox will usually come down the side of the platform or shield drop. nair leads to harder punishes than fair and has a lingering hitbox but it covers less space, making it a good option at lower percents to cover the side platforms.

Correct. You shouldn't rely on only one option ever, so this advice is pretty great. Grab is wonderful if you elect to stay grounded. A mix of this and defensive F-air can keep you safe from pretty much any N-air approach.

 

[vexoskeleton]

just putting this out there, pivot down tilt out of DD is amazing. pivots are hard to do...but it's still amazing.

Ive started somewhat learning that but its such a hassle and i feel I can usually just wd and be ok, what are the applications that it has that makes it good to learn over wd turnaround? Even a fast one feels like it will be barely faster than wding.

 

[FE_Hector]

If you're already in your dash animation, you've really only got the 1 frame to turn around, 2(?) frames to crouch, and thein the dtilt comes out in a pivot situation. If you turnaround and WD backwards into dtilt, even frame perfect, that's 1 frame to turn around and 14 of WDing back before you can input the dtilt. Something like that, anyway. On top of that, the pivot can be done way more reaction-based and is going to be far more difficult for the opponent to be able to resopnd to. I haven't put any work into my own pivot d/utilts, but I definitely see their utility.

 

[The Leaf]

Ive started somewhat learning that but its such a hassle and i feel I can usually just wd and be ok, what are the applications that it has that makes it good to learn over wd turnaround? Even a fast one feels like it will be barely faster than wding.

IIRC pivot dtilts are overhyped. Yes they have some good implications, but 90% of the time the WD back turnaround dtilt is just as effective. Kadano has mentioned before that the only significant upgrade pivot dtilt has over WD back dtilt is if you pivot on or before the 8th frame of your dash. Marth's dash is 14 frames, just as much endlag as his WD. His WD goes further however, making it more effective for longer ranges. The only scenario (again IIRC) Kadano theorized the pivot dtilt would clearly be superior in would be using a spaced fair on a shield > Dash back > Pivot dtilt on the 8th frame (or earlier). The 8th frame specifically puts you at tipper distance, meaning you can catch someone trying to jump OoS or WD OoS with the tipper dtilt and set up for a more devastating punish. IMO, you're already putting yourself at tipper distance and doing some extremely niche mixup, so why not just go for the pivot Fsmash? I actually use this as a mixup and it works pretty well and looks swag AF. I've seen ARC and Pewpewu do this before as well (also using empty hop pivot tipper Fsmash) to catch people jumping OoS.

Pivot dtilt can still be useful in neutral to stuff ground approaches on reaction though, unlike WD > turnaround dtilt which can be stuffed by faster characters like Fox or Falcon. The sudden stop also tends to cause some confusion which almost always leads to a free grab. I've done some experimenting with it, but I just find pivot jab or Side B to be more reliable since I tend to dsmash instead of dtilt (haven't practiced it a whole lot, just practiced empty pivots).

 

[kalamazhu]

When should you approach fox? I always feel when i approach fox with dtilt or an ariel i get hit for it so i never do it, but i feel like i should put pressure on him.

 

[Dr Peepee]

When should you approach fox? I always feel when i approach fox with dtilt or an ariel i get hit for it so i never do it, but i feel like i should put pressure on him.

Approaching isn't just trying to hit someone with a move. Approaching often has multiple parts. So, if you try to move forward with a Dtilt or aerial and get hit, then Fox is correctly attacking either before your move comes out or after your lag. In either case, they are likely prepared because of you acting similarly out of your forward movement. Acting similarly means you move forward a certain distance and always do an attack or something that can be beaten with some simple reactions. An easy way to mess with this is to move forward the same distance and not do an attack. In this way, the opponent will be forced to choose to try and interrupt you early and you can easily react, or they will wait for lag that doesn't come and now you have gained reaction advantage against them. Most people dash back if they realize their read is off, so you gain stage for free when this works out.

Basically, think of approaching for Marth as something that is more incremental than full and you'll understand better. Also, don't always do the same thing out of forward movement, and remember how your opponent will be thinking when they see any (initiating) actions done in threatening range.

 

[kalamazhu]

Approaching isn't just trying to hit someone with a move. Approaching often has multiple parts. So, if you try to move forward with a Dtilt or aerial and get hit, then Fox is correctly attacking either before your move comes out or after your lag. In either case, they are likely prepared because of you acting similarly out of your forward movement. Acting similarly means you move forward a certain distance and always do an attack or something that can be beaten with some simple reactions. An easy way to mess with this is to move forward the same distance and not do an attack. In this way, the opponent will be forced to choose to try and interrupt you early and you can easily react, or they will wait for lag that doesn't come and now you have gained reaction advantage against them. Most people dash back if they realize their read is off, so you gain stage for free when this works out.

Basically, think of approaching for Marth as something that is more incremental than full and you'll understand better. Also, don't always do the same thing out of forward movement, and remember how your opponent will be thinking when they see any (initiating) actions done in threatening range.

I think i kind of get it. So for example, if i'm getting hit out of my dash in to dtilt by a fox nair, a simple solution would be to do a long dash in and maybe wavedash or dash back to punish the nair afterwards with a grab? Should i think of it as baiting? If my thinking is correct, is there a golden ratio of baiting vs. approaching with a move? Thanks

 

[Dr Peepee]

Your example is correct.

Offense and defense can be intertwined often, but if it's helpful to think of this as baiting then go ahead.

Some people will quickly notice when your stuff works and some will never notice. If you become adept at setups which help give you information/hits and also change your approach options when they don't work any more you'll find success. There are general rules but no certain ratios. It's much better to test these things for yourself as well as record your matches and see what you may have missed while testing and playing.

As usual, I stand by the motto that less(swinging) is more for Marth and feel it applies here. Figuring out how that rule works and why is very integral to success.

 

[kalamazhu]

Wow... all this time i have been thinking of the neutral as just "countering" what your opponent does. But doing similar movements to force your opponents makes much more sense. I'll definitely try to think about this. Thanks PP!

 

[The Maven]

Wow... all this time i have been thinking of the neutral as just "countering" what your opponent does. But doing similar movements to force your opponents makes much more sense. I'll definitely try to think about this. Thanks PP!

If you want to look further into this idea, I recommend reading KirbyKaze's blog post on player goals and the way it affects PvP interactions

http://myneverendingbrainstorm.blogspot.ca/2014/07/goals-in-ssbm-intro-to-player-vs-player.html

 

[ChivalRuse]

@ kalamazhu Yeah a big thing about Marth is making the opponent think they can hit you, then dodging them. Another example is dash dancing near a shielding Falco with his back to you. Patrol the area outside of his AC bair range then punish it with a well-timed JC'd grab.

 

[FE_Hector]

@ kalamazhu Yeah a big thing about Marth is making the opponent think they can hit you, then dodging them. Another example is dash dancing near a shielding Falco with his back to you. Patrol the area outside of his AC bair range then punish it with a well-timed JC'd grab.

My favorite example of letting an opponent think they can hit you is PPMDs Marth. I've mentioned this before, but he basically DDs right next to a Fox, but doesn't do anything. When they start getting antsy and dash attack/SHFFL nair him, he dashes just out of its range and pivot grabs. Marth's got probably the most fun neutral in the game because of his unique (and rather generous) DD and WD distances.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Well Falcon's dash dance goes farther and faster. But Marth's movement is about dem swooshes.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

My favorite example of letting an opponent think they can hit you is PPMDs Marth. I've mentioned this before, but he basically DDs right next to a Fox, but doesn't do anything. When they start getting antsy and dash attack/SHFFL nair him, he dashes just out of its range and pivot grabs. Marth's got probably the most fun neutral in the game because of his unique (and rather generous) DD and WD distances.

Someone earlier mentioned being unsure of what to do during those three seconds of opponent respawn; this post kind of hits on it a bit at the beginning. PPMD does do very tight DD right next to people often; this is something that changes depending on the opponent, even though this is an extremely efficient way to put pressure on someone. Often when I am fighting Falcon players (most of the time less experienced ones), I spend those three seconds weaving in and out of their wild aerial approaches being VERY close to them, but they can't hit me because they don't have the control necessary; this also leads to easy grab combos or pokes for spacing when the three seconds expire. What you do during those three seconds really just depends on who your opponent is, always remembering that fluidity and movement with Marth is of the utmost importance. Experiment with different options to be familiar and comfortable with them all because there is no "one size fits all" approach with this kind of thing, especially at very high level play where one stock something might work and the next it won't.