Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Bones0]

Dolphin slash hits higher, farther forward, faster, and is very easy to space when reversed

In NTSC, dair is a guaranteed kill offstage.

So in other words, if dair won't kill, do dolphin slash.

Reversing it doesn't affect the spacing of the sweetspot. The hitbox connects before Marth "decides" if he's turning around or not.

 

[Hunybear]

What are the practical applications of Shield dropping. All i use it for is to drop from the platform during a dash. How do auto canceling Areals work and why dose nair do it. I need help understanding dash back power shield Falco lasers. I'm also not proficient in my punish game against Samus.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Shield dropping is basically to punish unsafe platform pressure. Marth's up tilt is a perfect example, as you can't punish it without a shield drop, but if you shield drop immediately, that's a free grab or aerial of your choice. That said, shield dropping is kind of an opportunistic tool. At the end of the day, it's a faster way to drop through platforms, but you'll still get hit if the opponent is expecting it.

 

[PolishSmash]

I'm practicing my movement with Marf. I learned about the wavedash forward and immediately dash in the opposite direction movement (I think this is Cactuar Dashing), but I don't understand how to apply this. Is this the movement that PPMD uses? What other type of movement should I be practicing?

For example what movement does he use at 17:43 to get the grab?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv74JXJBFwk

 

[BTmoney]

I'm practicing my movement with Marf. I learned about the wavedash forward and immediately dash in the opposite direction movement (I think this is Cactuar Dashing), but I don't understand how to apply this. Is this the movement that PPMD uses? What other type of movement should I be practicing?

For example what movement does he use at 17:43 to get the grab?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gv74JXJBFwk

cactuar dashing AFAIK is run canceling by dashing->holding your dash past the point where you can DD or turn around->crouch for a split second->start a new dash or dash backwards

that is effectively a long dash dance, you can run across the stage, crouch, then start a new dash in any direction and start your DD from anywhere. If you're in DD range just do it, if you're not you can crouch where you would like to start a fresh dash

 

[PolishSmash]

cactuar dashing AFAIK is running canceling by dashing->holding your dash past the point where you can DD or turn around->crouch for a split second->start a new dash or dash backwards

that is effectively a long dash dance, you can run across the stage, crouch, then start a new dash in any direction and start your DD from anywhere. If you're in DD range just do it, if you're not you can crouch then crouch when you would like to start

Thanks

 

[BTmoney]

Thanks

I think I got the point across but I just noticed how terribly worded that was so I fixed it

 

[Meru]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure Cactuar dashing is as follows:
1) wavedash towards opponent
2) dash away from opponent (this will give marth a pseudo sticky walk)
3) dash towards opponent

it makes you go from pretty slow to really fast, so it's tricky. It's also what PPMD uses vs Leffen at 17:43 on that video. Slow it down to 0.25 speed on youtube to see the different parts he implemented.

 

[PolishSmash]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm fairly sure Cactuar dashing is as follows:
1) wavedash towards opponent
2) dash away from opponent (this will give marth a pseudo sticky walk)
3) dash towards opponent

it makes you go from pretty slow to really fast, so it's tricky. It's also what PPMD uses vs Leffen at 17:43 on that video. Slow it down to 0.25 speed on youtube to see the different parts he implemented.

I don't get how thats good though. Why not just dash dance to grab? Is it used to space better or just to have tricky movement?

 

[Bones0]

A Melee Hell original:

 

[Meru]

I don't get how thats good though. Why not just dash dance to grab? Is it used to space better or just to have tricky movement?

It's just a movement mix up. If you look at the video you posted at like 17:30ish you see how hard it is to tell where the heck he's going. it helps bait people into overextending.

 

[BTmoney]

grabs & grab followups in marth dittos at low percent? I see a lot of f throw->uthrow from 0 and near 0

Does uthrow->u tilt ever actually combo

 

[Rarik]

No it never true combos and they can always jump out of it. However if you call the jump you can just uair/fair them afterwards and juggle them for tons of % especially on FD. Uthrow follow ups are about getting a feel for their patterns and when they like to jump. I like to always Utilt the first time I uthrow them on the chance they dont jump, because even if they jump then they usually end up in a poor position. (Disclaimer: I play against mediocre Marths, may not work against better players) Fthrow regrab is a thing until 7% at which point if they just DI down and tech you don't get a guaranteed follow up (on stage). If they DI poorly you can get Fsmash/Fairs.

 

[townes]

I'm having trouble with tecing to save myself when recovering (when getting hit out of my upB by marth fsmash, samus tilts and dsmash, peach dsmash, spacie dsmash for example). I seem to be very proficient with the normal wall tec, but occasionally I will accidentally do a walljump tec and I cannot bair on reaction to my mistake fast enough to save myself (because the marth walljump tec momentum). I have seen the Kadano gif of marth walljump tec bairing marth's fsmash. I am here for more help.
SO, should I be aiming to always do the regular tec or always do the walljump tec?
Is one the safer option most of the time?
If walljump tec bair is the best, what are the exact inputs (the easiest as well) for performing the jump portion of the wall tec? I assume it's upB-hold up-press L 20 frames before-bair, but this is one of those wonky things for me in melee. Since marth doesn't have a walljump normally, I am having understandable trouble bairing after I walljump tec when I walljump tec on accident. Please help.

 

[Clebus]

Not gonna lie you can just keep holding up from your up b and im pretty sure you'll get the jump assuming you dont need to sdi in which case i use the c stick (not really but i would if i could sdi)

 

[Bones0]

Just press Y immediately after pressing L/R to tech.

Also, you cannot SDI with the C-stick.

 

[MookieRah]

@ Clebus
I had the hold up debate with Kadano already, as in my personal method to do the ledgetech bair recovery (as well as similar stuff with Falco) holding up yielded a jump every time after the tech. This isn't the case, as Kadano proved, it just so happens that my method yielded a jump because I would press up at the right time. That said, if you are doing it in which holding up works, then by all means just hold up xD.

 

[PolishSmash]

I feel like a noob asking this but I want to make sure my L cancels are on point. When you L cancel do you guys watch where Marf is in relation to the ground to determine when to L cancel or is it ALL muscle memory? Because dair for example is much slower than fair.

 

[Bones0]

I feel like a noob asking this but I want to make sure my L cancels are on point. When you L cancel do you guys watch where Marf is in relation to the ground to determine when to L cancel or is it ALL muscle memory? Because dair for example is much slower than fair.

You have to L-cancel by visual cues. Muscle memory will only help if you're doing the jump, aerial, and FF the same as you always do. For example, if you run off the top plat of FoD in FD-mode, you can't just remember what the L-cancel timing is because you can FF at a ton of different points. You have to base it off of when/if you FF.

 

[Espi]

Up throw followup percentages on Falcon?

 

[Clebus]

In the Kadano thread
http://smashboards.com/posts/16635855/

 

[Espi]

I could of sworn that I posted in Kadano's thread LOL

 

[PolishSmash]

You have to L-cancel by visual cues. Muscle memory will only help if you're doing the jump, aerial, and FF the same as you always do. For example, if you run off the top plat of FoD in FD-mode, you can't just remember what the L-cancel timing is because you can FF at a ton of different points. You have to base it off of when/if you FF.

Good looks thanks

 

[BTmoney]

Anyone know how to deal with Samus missle spam as Marth? It's trivial to deal with with a lot of chars but I think they're very annoying vs Marth since the two obvious ones jumping and shielding aren't desirable a lot of the time. Do people swing at them or jab or something?

I don't like taking Samus to FD (and pokemon) just because of the missiles.

 

[PolishSmash]

Anyone know how to deal with Samus missle spam as Marth? It's trivial to deal with with a lot of chars but I think they're very annoying vs Marth since the two obvious ones jumping and shielding aren't desirable a lot of the time. Do people swing at them or jab or something?

I don't like taking Samus to FD (and pokemon) just because of the missiles.

I dont really know the matchup that well but I usually just jab or f tilt them and move in closer where they feel pressured. Its so annoying though.

 

[-=Untamed-Beast=-]

Anyone know how to deal with Samus missle spam as Marth? It's trivial to deal with with a lot of chars but I think they're very annoying vs Marth since the two obvious ones jumping and shielding aren't desirable a lot of the time. Do people swing at them or jab or something?

I don't like taking Samus to FD (and pokemon) just because of the missiles.

Just off the top of my head are three things:
-Swat the missiles with f-tilt. If you are close enough to strike Samus then you will go through the missile and her, too.
-Yoshi's Story for early tipper kills and generally shorter stocks because of less room for Samus bomb jump recovering.
-Watch top Marths fight Samus users and see how they play the matchup. Ken v. Plup comes to mind, but there are numerous others.

 

[DJ _ICE]

PPMD vs Hugs at Apex 2014
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSr8E3HkKAU&t=517
Such a beautiful long match, probably the best Marth Samus match I've seen

 

[Zeppeli]

I had an older version of the 20XX hack pack before I updated to the current one. In the older one, spacies would always shine in midair to escape the chaingrab at around 25% ~ 35% percent and I could never land a full chaingrab.

In the current version, they never do that and I seem to be getting all my followups (even strange dash -> grabs at 40%+). Is this suppose to be the case? I feel as though the 20XX pack right now gives a lot more leniency to land the chaingrab than you actually have vs another player.

 

[MookieRah]

I have that feeling too Zeppeli, but so far against real people I haven't had that much trouble with my chain grabs. Keep in mind, while they don't jump on the first available frame in 20XX, they jump really soon (probably no more than frame 3) and most human players won't hit that level of consistency (nor would you for the chain grab) consistently.

I do suggest posting about that in the 20XX thread though.

 

[Espi]

Is there a general rule when edge guarding Falcon? What do you do when he goes high and vice versa. Could someone expand on this.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

The only thing that comes to mind is making sure he does not get the ledge by pulling back at the apex of the jump. If you cover that option first, then you can still get him due to landing lag on UpB despite you whiffing a move.

 

[DJ _ICE]

How should I teach good fundamentals (basics of the neutral game especially) to a newer player? I try to copy what PPMD and Umbreon are saying but I go off into difficult to concepts and end up confusing them.

 

[MookieRah]

Well, first you have to truly understand them yourself before you can teach them. I know saying that will come off as condescending, but I actually *thought* I understood the message after knowing about the concepts for over a year. That might not make sense now, and perhaps you actually do understand them.

In any case, the best way to teach it is basically to literally commentate your own matches with your crewmates. If you need to, pause and explain why you are doing what you are doing. A lot of times, new players don't actually know what's going on, because they are unable to see the big picture. Despite me actively telling my crewmates this though, pretty much all of them don't really understand yet, as they still seem to play more on their gut and not with their head nor do they use any sort of overall strategy. It comes with time though, be sure to teach them good tech practice habits though. That makes a huge difference.

 

[Espi]

Could someone explain Marth vs Ice climbers in more detail? How will Icies approach through my fair and D tilt walls? How do I counter these options?

 

[ItsChon]

Derp no delete button op

 

[Nicholas1024]

Is there a general rule when edge guarding Falcon? What do you do when he goes high and vice versa. Could someone expand on this.

When he's going high but can't get behind you, just charge shieldbreaker at the ledge. Its hitbox is frequently good enough to hit him regardless of whether he tries to fade back or go over you, and does enough knockback to kill him outright even at mid percents.

If he's going low, on the other hand, just down tilt. Yes, the idea of a forwards smash or a neutral B or dair is appealing, but all of those ideas have the same problem, which is that he can wall tech and up-B while you're stuck in end lag. He can still tech a down tilt, but you can just throw out another one. Furthermore, after the down tilt hits, he's typically low enough that grabbing the ledge will end his stock.

Finally, if he's high enough up that he actually can get past a shieldbreaker at the ledge, you're probably best served by going up after him and trying to nair or fair to send him back out. (It's worth noting that you can probably combo the fair into a dair if you're correctly positioned, as the Falcon will almost always be DI'ing up.)

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

Is Marth's Hax Dash good or safe?

 

[Nicholas1024]

When done frame perfect, I believe it's fully invincible, so if you can do it that way, it's amazing.

However, even if it isn't frame perfect, it's still very useful. If you mix up between the hax dash, ledge stall fair (to bat away an opponent that tries to punish said hax dash), you can stall while making it risky for the opponent to try a punish. Once you're ready or the opponent is unprepared, you can then use one of waveland towards center stage, waveland right on the very edge, normal getup or fair into center stage to get back on.

As a side note, I would recommend practicing the hax dash until you can reliably perform it fast enough that the invincibility covers the point where your waveland hits the ground. That way even if you get punished and sent back out, you'll still have your second jump and a chance to survive.

 

[Pr0fessor Flash]

What are good approaches for the Falco MU besides run Wavedash OoS?

 

[Fatomsk2]

What are good approaches for the Falco MU besides run Wavedash OoS?

Running powershield laser grab