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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Beat!

Smash Master
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Uppsala, Sweden
@BlindSpot

Depends on what exactly you mean by "just getting into". If she hasn't been introduced to ATs at all then start with the advanced how to play videos.

Assuming she's gotten past the absolute novice stage (as in, she can control her character on a basic level, knows how the different moves work, and maybe also how to l-cancel/wavedash), then I'd say learning how to dashdance well (and neutral game spacing in general) would be useful. Learning the really intricate parts of it may be a bit early, but basic things like "stay outside of fsmash range against other Marths" and "bait out a move and punish them afterwards" are a very good start.

Getting down the basics of the chaingrab vs spacies is always good.

Marth shouldn't be jumping all that much in the neutral game, but it's still valuable to practice moving as soon as possible after an l-cancelled aerial. Good movement in general is something that you can never practice enough.

Upthrowing the opponent onto a side platform and reacting to the direction they tech with a uair/uptilt is pretty fundamental and not too hard to learn the basics of (perfecting it is a different matter, though).


Tell her to watch videos of high level Marths (M2K, PPU, etc.) and to pay attention to what they do in different situations.


Extremely basic* edgeguard against Falco**: As he's recovering, stand as close to the edge as possible facing outwards, and jab him when he side-Bs (press jab right as you hear the *ping* sound). He'll now be forced to use up-B, so just run off-stage and double-jump -> fair him (the charging part of his up-B doesn't have a hitbox so you don't have to worry about spacing), and then just up-B back to the ledge.

*I say basic because good Falcos have tons of little tricks to make it more difficult for you than my advice suggests, but it's a good starting point that will work well against many low/mid-level Falcos.

** It obviously works against Fox as well, but it can be a little tricky for a new player since his recovery goes further and his charging animation has a hitbox, so you have to space outside of it when you do the doublejump -> fair.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
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Vienna, Austria
I think that helps. It looks like the range of dsmash and fsmash on the ground are roughly the same. Cool, thanks.
Oh, and dsmash and fsmash have the same killing power right? I saw number comparisons between Marth's dsmash and Fox's upsmash, but I'd like a comparison between Marth's dsmash and fsmash.
Here is a pre-hit damage / knockback diagram that compares tipper fsmash and dsmash. Fsmash is blue.
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Apr 11, 2013
Messages
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Greensboro, NC
Here is a pre-hit damage / knockback diagram that compares tipper fsmash and dsmash. Fsmash is blue.
It looks like dsmash doesn't do that much less damage when tippered compared to fsmash, especially at high percents. At like 80-85% it looks like they both are equal, and after that dsmash becomes more powerful.
Holy crap I gotta try this out. Not only does dsmash come out in half the frames, but it gets more powerful at higher percents? Seems pretty legit. Unless I'm missing something here.
 

Kadano

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It looks like dsmash doesn't do that much less damage when tippered compared to fsmash, especially at high percents. At like 80-85% it looks like they both are equal, and after that dsmash becomes more powerful.
Holy crap I gotta try this out. Not only does dsmash come out in half the frames, but it gets more powerful at higher percents? Seems pretty legit. Unless I'm missing something here.
Please click the link again, I mistakenly used (,) for commas instead of (.) which messed everything up. Now it’s fixed.
Dsmash knockback exceeds fsmash from 33% on.
 

RedmanSSBM

Improving My Process
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Please click the link again, I mistakenly used (,) for commas instead of (.) which messed everything up. Now it’s fixed.
Dsmash knockback exceeds fsmash from 33% on.
Wow that's actually even better. Why don't people use dsmash more? It seems like Marth's most underrated move.
 

Kadano

Magical Express
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Why don't people use dsmash more?
Poor vertical range, long ending lag, knockback angle doesn’t set up for edgeguarding so easily. However, I do agree it’s underrated, especially in combination with techchasing. If your opponent techrolls away, run-cancel dsmash is often the only killing move that reaches them before their lag ends.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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Being directly above Marth makes it easy for him to Utilt vs Uair you and it also probably means you can't FF without being pretty easy to catch. Angles make it harder for Marth to cover everything since he has to actually move a little bit lol.

If you jump on a platform and fight Marth, then he has to jump in order to actually get you.....which is not something Marth likes to do since his aerials are laggy. Even if Marth doesn't commit, he can still not get back down quickly or cover himself well if the opponent jumps or dashes as well. Basically Marth gets stuck in the air a bit with poor tools to cover his hangtime. This is all related to point 1.

Marth putting you in the air means you aren't on a platform and Marth has time to read your angle, making his life much easier. This also probably means the opponent has to burn at least one option to change their trajectory to avoid this issue, and Marth's life is also easier than at neutral in this case because it means he can then commit to another option since the opponent has to deal with Utilt/Uair/Fair now and likely cannot dodge it very easily. Even in the case of Peach, watching Armada FH float because he wants Marth to jump is how he plays in between grounded mixups. When he is higher than that he has to get Marth to jump or get conditioned to stay grounded(so he can go to a platform or fall with Fair and embarrass people lol) since he is much less likely to win vs Utilt/Uair/Fair in those instances the way the hitboxes match up.

I hope this makes more sense =)
Did you see my PM? If you did and don't feel like typing out a response then that's fine. lol


Pink is dsmash tipper hitbox on frame 6, blue is fsmash tipper hitbox on frame 12.
What are the KB angles of the non-tipper dsmash hitboxes? Sometimes it seems to send upwards, but other times it seems to send pretty damn horizontal. I have occasionally CC dsmashed to send them off at a low angle, but when they don't get sent like that I usually get punished. Maybe it's entirely DI dependent though.
 

Kadano

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Being directly above Marth makes it easy for him to Utilt vs Uair you and it also probably means you can't FF without being pretty easy to catch. Angles make it harder for Marth to cover everything since he has to actually move a little bit lol.
I hate playing this type of situation game on FD. Marth should win (most) situations where X opponent is directly above marth (obviously within some range of sideways position above marth). But, its a situation where your timing has to beat our your opponents timing which is annoying.

I am not sure how feasible it is for other people, but I struggle to catch people if they vary up a few situations:
(1) fast fall aerial
(2) no fast fall aerial
(3) 2nd jump above marth's swing and come back down with fast fall aerial.

In case (1), I often times simply fail to react to this fast enough against fox/falcon/falco. Or what happens is that I trade instead of simply beating them out right because I was too slow to time the attack right to get my spacing on Utilt/Uair. Depending upon my percentage this is still bad to trade as we might get sent to opposite sides of the stage (or these characters having stronger attacks and resisting knockback more). Marth often times gets the worst end of a trade than they do even at even percentages.

Attempting to compensate for case (1) by swinging earlier tends to mess-up my timing in the situations where case (2) happens and I swing to cover a fast fall only to miss and get hit in ending lag by the non-fast fall aerial.

The last option is a bit dangerous on the opponents part. If they jump too early, they have no jump and its easier pickings for marth not having to deal with an additional option. But, by jumping in a range between Marth's jumped aerials and Utilt height fox/falco/falcon can avoid Marth's Utilt and fast fall down on top of him in utilt landing lag. I am not sure about anyone else, but I cannot react to a last moment 2nd jump vs last moment fastfall aerial attempt and choose the right option. If I want to directly beat out someone over my head I have to guess.

I know Marth is strong with opponents above him, but for these reasons I mentioned I hate having characters directly above marth. Especially on FD where there are no platforms. I would rather have opponents at an angle far less than almost vertical to avoid those situations where if I mess-up I end up getting punished.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Since on this topic of people above marth....

What really confuses me is how to deal with platform play against spacies. Marth has the ground and spacies have the platforms. How the hell do you situate yourself to properly deal with this? As PP mentioned Marth having to jump at all means him missing gives the spacies time to get down before he can. Thus, roles reversed with Marth now in a bad spot.

A common situation I find myself in is spacies move around on the top platforms and now I am out of position. For example, Fox gets to center stage spacing while I am underneath a platform on near the ledge. This is bad because Marth's DD movement is severely restricted here. I believe I want to hold the center rather than move closer to the ledge. However, spacies are able to move on the ledges so quickly they have multiple drop points off the top platform.
 

Bones0

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You can definitely utilt/uair a second time if Fox/Falco DJ to avoid the initial one. I could see Falcon, Ganon, and maybe Peach with a float/DJC stall getting away with that, but no one else. If you find yourself unable to cover Fox/Falco's DJ out of combos, then you probably aren't FFing to the ground as soon as you swing. Excluding situations where you are ACing uair (and I'm not sure that's even faster than FFing at the peak of your jump, but I think it is), there's no reason to stay in the air once you realize they DJed away. FFing to the ground allows you to dash and uair again (or whatever) to follow their jump.
 

FrootLoop

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If you're struggling with those situations then I think you're going too high to engage them. By waiting until they are lower, their options will naturally get cut off for you. They will have greatly shortened drift range. the timing difference between them fastfalling and not fastfalling shrinks so you can cover everything with a single swing. You recover from them jumping away much faster allowing you to regroup and setup the same situation again minus them having their jump.

Marth can't threaten the top platform of BF and DL well at all. I think he gets top-platform camped pretty good there by spacies. On YS and FoD, you can threaten the top with short hop, which doesn't give them room to circumnavigate you and take the middle. PS and FD obviously don't have top platform's to worry about, and side platforms aren't high enough to worry about.
 

SUNG666

Smash Ace
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LA, CA (Glendale) Hook me up if ya wanna smash
Super awesome post with the cg flowchart Beat! Should I dash JC grab if they DI after 17%?

So I played all Marth in tourney this weekend (got 3 sets streamed) I was trying to focus on getting hits from dash dancing in the neutral game from talking about it with Umbreon and others? on a random smash stream. But it feels like I'm in neutral like 2% of the time and the rest is just one person clearly having the positional adv/or some kind of pressure. I also rarely use d tilt, not really sure how to use it well? I feel like if I can ever hit someone with a d tilt, I could have just grabbed them, which is why I don't use it (for now?). My thoughts on d tilt is to be used as a safe attack to condition people so that when you do grab, it's basically guaranteed to hit (since you have a read on them) and you won't have to risk all the lag if you miss. But I think it's still just an increase in chance % to get that grab anyway and you can still misread and get hit for it, so my mentality is to just go for the grabs/fairs everytime to maximize reward+risk (I think Marth punishes Fox better). So my thoughts on positioning with dd in neutral to secure center stage to increase the chances of getting a hit in (at least against fast chars like Fox), I feel like, is negligible.

Me v Fiction http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/476409196?t=137m30s (me v Squid is right before that if ya wanna see)
Me v Lucky http://www.twitch.tv/leveluplive/b/476409196?t=331m1s
(If there's some problem with the archive, I find that switching quality fixes the problem usually)

The more I play the more I feel like Fox is at a disadvantage when he pressures my shield, at least when I'm not by the ledge. Anyway, ANY and ALL thoughts are cool :]
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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@Sung: Use twitch tools to download your matches from that twitch feed and then re-upload on youtube. In my experience people won't really critique you until you do that. I'll take a look at these later too : )
 

Beat!

Smash Master
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Super awesome post with the cg flowchart Beat! Should I dash JC grab if they DI after 17%?
Thanks. :)

I'm not completely sure what the exact percent is where a dash JC grab is required to grab DI away, but it's somewhere around there. Unless someone already knows, I'll just check it myself.

Also, twitch vods tend to be unwatchable for me because of fps issues. If you put your matches on youtube I could take a look at them.
 

SUNG666

Smash Ace
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LA, CA (Glendale) Hook me up if ya wanna smash
Didn't know how to cut videos on a mac so I quickly dl'd a free trial video editor, which said there'd be a watermark. Unfortunately, I didn't think it'd cover the whole freakin screen. I didn't know about twitch tools, really useful info thanks.

Me v Fiction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGdclbwhiC0
Me v Lucky http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw3d3pFzGE0

//EDIT// Yay SleepyK uploaded all the SSS vids so no watermark

Me v Fiction http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=INLIevwtCV8
Me v Lucky http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6kedBs37tcc
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
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Nvm this post, I checked and I was wrong about my assertion. iMovie is 15 bucks.

You could instead upload the twitch videos you downloaded and then do all the editing on youtube. I did that for my videos about a month ago, granted I would imagine it would take a lot longer when you don't have stupid ultra fast swedish internet. Still, it's better than your current alternative.

----------- Old post here because I don't know the tag to make those nice spoiler tags ------------
If you have a mac I think you can probably install Mac osx Mavericks and get iMovie for free now. I haven't tried it myself, but I was in need of video editing software but this laptop ran only leopard so iMovie wasn't a free feature. Now that they released Mavericks for free, I think I should be able to nab iMovie now.
 

Purpletuce

Smash Lord
Joined
Jan 3, 2012
Messages
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Corvallis, OR
Not sure what you guys are talking about, are you doing a Bair to turn around then doing a Dair with the extended hitbox? Everyone in my town does that all day, because we saw M2K do it once and it became an inside joke.

If you're talking about hitting with both, I've definitely done that a few times, but it is hard.

Both a cool though.
 

MookieRah

Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Joined
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Messages
5,384
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Umeå, Sweden
It's 2013 and the Ken Combo has been around for a decade. I'm sorry, but performing it with bair (or reverse bairs) is not really innovative at this point, even if it's not used that often by many players. It really doesn't deserve a special name.
 
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