Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

Often WD in, angle may change.

Maybe WD away or WD and let another laser turn me around.

 

[Sacredtwin11]

How do you maximize your practice when you feel low on energy? I recently started working full time and practice sometimes feels like just going through the motions. It's hard to keep intent in mind and especially hard to practice tech chasing like this.

 

[UnderTheKnife]

Hello PP!

I've heard a lot of players talk about gameplans, especially lately, but I'm still lost on what exactly a gameplan looks like, so here are a few questions:

1. What is a gameplan?
2. What is an example of a gameplan?
3. How does one develop an effective gameplan? In friendlies? Analysis? Watching yourself? Others?
4. How does one test the effectiveness of their gameplan?
5. Assuming one should always be refining their gameplan, how does one refine their gameplan?

I'm trying my best to "learn how to learn" melee so to speak, so your insight would be greatly appreciated

Thanks!

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do you maximize your practice when you feel low on energy? I recently started working full time and practice sometimes feels like just going through the motions. It's hard to keep intent in mind and especially hard to practice tech chasing like this.

It helps to bring your overall energy up when possible through exercise and excitement about connecting with the game, etc, but in situations where you are tired it may be better just to do more essential things and don't push so you can retain what's most important. Keeping it simpler can help too.

Hello PP!

I've heard a lot of players talk about gameplans, especially lately, but I'm still lost on what exactly a gameplan looks like, so here are a few questions:

1. What is a gameplan?
2. What is an example of a gameplan?
3. How does one develop an effective gameplan? In friendlies? Analysis? Watching yourself? Others?
4. How does one test the effectiveness of their gameplan?
5. Assuming one should always be refining their gameplan, how does one refine their gameplan?

I'm trying my best to "learn how to learn" melee so to speak, so your insight would be greatly appreciated

Thanks!

Hello!

A gameplan is basically just a way of saying you want to play neutral and punish a certain way. It doesn't mean anything in itself but you can make one for punish by finding the moves you want to start combos with, percents needed to know, how to edgeguard/juggle and so on. Also helps to learn DI and teching to mitigate opponent punishes. For neutral, you want to learn your winning position and the default range. The default range is the space you are safe from your opponent but you can still somewhat threaten them with a move(s), and same for their move(s). Winning position as Marth is pretty much always to be spaced perfectly at Fair/Dtilt spacing and forcing them to put up their shield. This is especially strong when they are cornered.

 

[Kotastic]

How do you incorporate dtilt in place into general movement vs fox?

I suppose to expand a bit, I can see how I can defensively move vs fox with the plethora of tools I have with dash back and jump. I'm not sure how to move forward to incentivize the fox to approach since WD/RC dtilt is lowkey pretty bad unless I hard call out their retreat/shield, run up grab I'd have to be pretty close and predict their retreat, and fsmash while it beats many things is very committal.

 

[Zorcey]

What are you thinking about when you're on the ledge against Falcon? Falcon mixing up Bair and DD grab/Nair can basically gimp me from the ledge lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

How do you incorporate dtilt in place into general movement vs fox?

I suppose to expand a bit, I can see how I can defensively move vs fox with the plethora of tools I have with dash back and jump. I'm not sure how to move forward to incentivize the fox to approach since WD/RC dtilt is lowkey pretty bad unless I hard call out their retreat/shield, run up grab I'd have to be pretty close and predict their retreat, and fsmash while it beats many things is very committal.

Landing from aerial and WD will often link to Dtilt.

Fair will be your main tool vs Fox. You have to patrol space and swat him out of the air with it. If you run up and Fair then you're often beating whatever Dtilt is losing to, in addition to being safer on average and getting more reward.

What are you thinking about when you're on the ledge against Falcon? Falcon mixing up Bair and DD grab/Nair can basically gimp me from the ledge lol.

I like trying to get up with Fair sometimes and then otherwise getting onto the lip of stage so he can just space far from Fair. If he lands with Bair then he's unlikely to attack again because his back to Marth is not good for him, so that can be a time to get up as he repositions.

 

[Kotastic]

Do you believe Marth exerts the most control vs Fox at the middle range because it's easier to play reactively from there?

vs. Fox playing at the middle ranges, what can i react to and can't? How can I punish Fox taking space or running in dtilt/shine? And if the Fox kinda just retreats or stays in place, that can mean a dtilt or fair?

Also at that midrange, do you believe Marth should primarily stay grounded or jump preemptively?

 

[Dr Peepee]

He exerts the most at close range where he can stuff Fox's moves. But he can play middle range alright partly because he can do some reactions there.

It depends on which middle ranges, but it'll be hard to tell when he overshoots and it's harder to punish aggressive FHs if not unlikely. Fox's fakes also are generally going to be stronger here. His direct attacks will mostly still be reactable. Him retreating/staying in place does not guarantee a punish because he can see you coming in and intercept or keep moving back, etc. This is too simplistic.

Marth can jump or be grounded in mid range.

 

[Zorcey]

Generally speaking, what do you consider the use of Marth's ledgedash to be, given its poor invincibility? When do you favor it?

When would you pick LH Nair over LH Fair?

What do you think are Marth's strongest ledge options against Puff?

 

[Dr Peepee]

A way to push people who challenge haxdash/NIL. Sometimes a way to get the jump on someone who is out of position as I grab edge or hit them with upb.

Nair for reverse edgeguards, if I think they'll come in late, if they're gonna hold down but are spaced.

NIL/Haxdash DJ onto stage. Maybe edgejump on like DL?

 

[Zorcey]

Do you have any rules or statements you repeat to yourself to stay focused when playing around Puff fishing for rest setups?

Under what circumstances would you use late Fair over rising Fair against Falcon in neutral?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Holding shield is okay, don't grab fish. Roll away usually fine.

Late Fair only to control space or if you are pretty sure he will shield or attack late.

 

[Zorcey]

What is a good position to take after I confirm Fox FH OoS if I can't directly punish it? And can you do much if he FHs to a platform?

Where do you think Marth should ideally be standing when Fox is shielding on a side platform? My current impression is that he should stand at or a little further back than tipper Fair range, but I'm not sure.

I also don't know where to go when he moves off the platform, especially when he FHs. Do I just try to stay below and a bit diagonal to him, so I can keep a Fair between us?

What exactly is your own gameplan when Fox goes to the side platform in neutral?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Moving in to pressure his immediate landing is good. Imagine he shields or immediately attacks, those would both be fairly reactable depending on how close you get and how you respond. If Fox goes to a platform you can hit his landing lag sometimes, but if not then just set up for Fair.

Yeah, around there. Fair is great because Fox can't challenge it at that angle and spacing.

Depends on how he gets off the platform. Do you mean FH at you?

Depends on stage and such, but I like seeing if they will come into me or not. If they stay at all, I like getting into Fair spacing and making them squirm. I don't rush the position because if I swing and they go over me then that can suck especially on something like FoD.

 

[Zorcey]

Actually I’m not sure what I meant lol. But to try keeping it simple, if he mixes FHing at me and FHing to the top platform, I have to pick one to cover, right? So what would I generally be looking to do in each case? I guess assuming I’m at the tipper Fair spacing we discussed.

See, I can set up this Fair pressure, but I never know what to do with it once I have it. Why is it good to make them “squirm” here? How do I make use of that advantage?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Depends on stage, but you could intercept him as he dashes in before the FH if you wanted to be more aggro. Otherwise just wait and back up and then counterhit if he goes in or FH/DJ aerial if he goes up.

By learning how to beat what else he can do afterward....by making it such that he cannot challenge your sword or reposition well vs it.

 

[Kotastic]

When Falcon is on the top platform, where should I be to best position myself vs his potential attacks? I'm confused if I should be jumping in place or stay grounded vs his shield drops. Being in the corner doesn't feel good lol.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Depends on stage and such. You can sit directly under him and Uair his stomp because it takes a bit to come out, at least on like YS/FoD. If it's another aerial you can just dash to the side and avoid it. Sitting slightly in front of him to force knee/nair isn't bad either because those don't hit downward, but of course he could just pivot shield drop Bair you. I could possibly say more but there may be some specifics you would prefer discussing.

 

[Kotastic]

So regardless of stage, you would prefer to stay directly below him?

Even if he were to pivot shield drop bair, I can at least weave around the move grounded right? Might not be an easy whiff punish but at least I'm not hit.

Also, he falls pretty fast so if I were to intercept him, it feels like a read especially on fod/ys. On those stages I'd probably need to stay grounded? But for DL/BF it might be okay to SH in place?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well, it's more like shifting the space below him. I doubt I'd just SIT there.

That's not a bad rule.

 

[VMPR]

Been having issues vs peach. i never know how to get big damage at low % usually just try to fthrow nair/ dash attack / tech chase depending on di or throw her off stage and put her into the juggle loop. i see top marths get huge aerial strings on her though and i always get hit out of mine. also when i have her off stage i always end up in this situation where i burn her resources and i get her in up b floating towards the stage but im having trouble finding other things to do than just fsmash her. thats the main option i see people go for but if it doesnt end up killing it just sends her back up and it feels like it kind of gives her another shot at recovering. i also have no clue what to do to ledge trap her everything i try kinda feels like it leaves an obvious options open to let her get back on stage. the problems are really simple but im struggling to find solutions

 

[Dr Peepee]

Land second hit Nair or mid/late tipper Fair at early percents to set yourself up for more damage. Fthrow can sometimes lead to this but isn't guaranteed. Otherwise you just throw her for minimal damage until she's offstage.

Dtilt and weak Fair are better on average, but Fsmash is good damage and can lead to kill fairly quickly. Sometimes you can do a Dair setup with SH'ing out backwards M2K has done so you can copy that.

If she's on the edge, you sit outside of her getup attack range and hold down. If she gets up or getup attacks, Dtilt. If she jumps, run and Fair. If she rolls, turnaround grab.

 

[VMPR]

how do i set up the nair and fair then or do i just try to get it when she jumps/ floats

ive also seen m2k like snipe under her umbrella with a back air it doesnt seem as good but slightly more reliable

 

[BoboKoz]

Hey PP i have a question about foxes shield as Marth. So were facing each other and fox is in shield can i time my fair in place so it is possible to dash behind his shield before he grabs or does it require drift in order for the dash behind shield to be possible also can this be beat by bair oos?

 

[Dr Peepee]

how do i set up the nair and fair then or do i just try to get it when she jumps/ floats

ive also seen m2k like snipe under her umbrella with a back air it doesnt seem as good but slightly more reliable

These moves only combo if she jumps or floats yeah, but you discourage that with good grabs and Dtilts or at least discouraging her DA/turnip pulls.

Yup Bair'ing her umbrella is great too because it pushes her out, though it can be rough if it doesn't kill/she doesn't hold away.

Hey PP i have a question about foxes shield as Marth. So were facing each other and fox is in shield can i time my fair in place so it is possible to dash behind his shield before he grabs or does it require drift in order for the dash behind shield to be possible also can this be beat by bair oos?

I believe you can dash through if you are directly inside him, do a very late Fair, and it's probably not staled. Bair OOS could beat this but he may get the weak hit. Shine is the real enemy of this tactic.

 

[Kotastic]

What does dash forward --> jump convey to you vs Fox?

When you're close against a cornered Fox and you know he will jump to side platform, would you recommend nair even on DL? Feels much more lenient with nair than fair.

 

[Dr Peepee]

As Fox, or as Marth?

You can if you want, but I tend to prefer Fair. If you're concerned about CC and you suspect it's between CC or FH, then sure Nair I guess. Just hope he doesn't dash back I guess.

 

[Kotastic]

The Marth doing dash forward --> jump

 

[Dr Peepee]

If Marth does it, then it still depends on which jump. Jump in place and forward and backward are all very different things. But that being said it conveys to Fox that Marth is willing to jump out of movement in, and therefore may be less inclined to respect forward movement, especially if Marth does primarily mid or late aerials and does not jump backward. It also communicates that Marth is taking time to set up, which gives Fox at least one cue to reposition using this information.

 

[Kotastic]

I also just did an analysis of M2K's dash dance vs Leffen, SFAT, and Mango around the 2016-17 era.

It seems to be centralized around slight approach nair in place. It forces Fox to respect the move and it generally hard to whiff punish. As M2K sets the tempo with it, he seems to make decisions based on whether Fox is further provoked by it or waits. If he's provoked, it sets up for whiff punish grab better. If he waits with dash dance, then M2K tends to go for fsmash or DA. Vs. FH he seemed to just wait what the Fox does afterwards most of the time rather than beat the FH itself. It really didn't seem to deviate much further than that, and what I saw is that M2K won a lot of his interactions based off scraps and outplays in tight spots knowing their habits, reversals, pressure, and the ledge. This really showed against SFAT where honestly M2K would lose more than half of true neutral interactions, but off of scraps and other things, M2K would prevail anyways with his strong punish game.

Do you think I'm off in any of those parts? What would you do differently if you were to see Fox dash dancing away from you? Do you like DD nair much? Just how differently would you fundamentally play the mu compared to m2k?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nah I'd say that's pretty accurate from my recollection. There can always be more nuance added, but I wouldn't say any of that is far off base.

I really dislike the DD Nair M2K does. Twitch was actually very good at counterplaying it so I completely took it out of my game, which is a shame since it did work on other Foxes. The issue I discovered is that, unless Fox is approaching, the Nair is just you sitting there giving Fox time to set up on you. There is no longer any guessing about what you are doing like there is with whether you Fair or not, and when if you do. This can allow Fox to encroach on your space and you feel forced to act, which is the primary way Fox gets advantage and Marth gets the helpless feeling of being too slow and overwhelmed.

Modern Foxes for some reason think run up CC is a good idea, so this tactic would beat that.

I would personally rather Dtilt to keep Fox out, or Fair if I suspect he may jump early to beat Dtilt, or may attempt to play around Dtilt, or may just want to come in. Fair is more damage and can more often lead to useful punishes. Dtilt can beat Nair if you time it right which is pretty cheap(not really what a grounded poke should do imo) but you can abuse it all the same. I personally prefer movement vs Fox myself, but I like pushing to force them to act or give up stage. This also keeps them from getting free lasers and manipulation on me(this is my perspective, and you can and should feel free to dissect that statement as needed).

In the end, I think the Fair/Dtilt core is just insanely strong and valuable vs Fox here. It also can help you control space instead of dashing back, which is especially useful on smaller stages or when you're more cornered.

 

[Kotastic]

I'm beginning to seriously agree that movement is necessary vs Fox particularly when they are dash dancing themselves, as they're waiting for an opening even if I were to fair/dtilt. Fair/dtilt are strong tools for sure but I feel like it has limits when I'm stationary. M2K's solution to beat them waiting was going for an fsmash a lot of times, which to be fair DID work a decent amount of times, but it's obviously risky and straight up doesn't work if they're not close.

Your solution I suspect will be a little more complicated, so some ideas would be nice. My idea so far is that dash in will exert pressure, and jumping then will establish space that I took from dash in (i think you told me this at genesis and I randomly remembered this now lol). From that interaction, it will tell me a lot about how the Fox will respond. If they're still just sitting there, I should preferably be at rising fair range like we talked about when cornering fox.

 

[cinderssbm]

Hi, I was wondering what your thoughts are on what it means to play safe in this game. I come from a street fighter background and since it's a more linear game it's relatively easy to keep yourself safe from threats by staying grounded and reacting to your opponent if they make a big commitment. In melee this kind of strategy is much less effective because of the differences in blocking mechanics and many fast burst options. It feels like you have to take a more preemptive approach to stopping aggressive neutral options. So my question is what would say a "safe" or risk-minimizing Marth neutral game looks like?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm beginning to seriously agree that movement is necessary vs Fox particularly when they are dash dancing themselves, as they're waiting for an opening even if I were to fair/dtilt. Fair/dtilt are strong tools for sure but I feel like it has limits when I'm stationary. M2K's solution to beat them waiting was going for an fsmash a lot of times, which to be fair DID work a decent amount of times, but it's obviously risky and straight up doesn't work if they're not close.

Your solution I suspect will be a little more complicated, so some ideas would be nice. My idea so far is that dash in will exert pressure, and jumping then will establish space that I took from dash in (i think you told me this at genesis and I randomly remembered this now lol). From that interaction, it will tell me a lot about how the Fox will respond. If they're still just sitting there, I should preferably be at rising fair range like we talked about when cornering fox.

I am not sure movement is always necessary, but Fox can force you into moving. It may be better said that way in my view. If you default to always moving it's fine but then you must be very mindful of your actions on smaller levels.

The fox could just be sitting there due to you not getting close enough before jumping. But otherwise sure.

Hi, I was wondering what your thoughts are on what it means to play safe in this game. I come from a street fighter background and since it's a more linear game it's relatively easy to keep yourself safe from threats by staying grounded and reacting to your opponent if they make a big commitment. In melee this kind of strategy is much less effective because of the differences in blocking mechanics and many fast burst options. It feels like you have to take a more preemptive approach to stopping aggressive neutral options. So my question is what would say a "safe" or risk-minimizing Marth neutral game looks like?

Ah yes, this is not an easy thing to explain to someone from a SF background. Melee is very odd in that you have a lot of quick attacks, but also a lot of potential for fakes that are not just walking forward and backward. Dashes and even jumps can be fakes and they're quite fast. That said, Marth can mitigate a ton of approaches between CC/pivot grab, Fair, and Dtilt. Dtilt patrols space in front of you, Fair beats them in the air, CC/ASDI down grab can be combined with Dtilt sometimes and generally just beats attacks into you, and pivot grab works with Dtilt and Fair and also with percent to shift your space around. Dtilt and Fair are kind of like a high/low core mixup in SF, while grab can just beat a lot of stuff generally lol.

Marth also can zone like some SF characters in that he can shift his space around with dashes that kind of function like walking back and forth, and he can poke with WD Dtilt or with slightly jumping forward with Fair. Note you can just not attack out of either option much like you can just walk forward without attacking in SF, though the options are more committal than SF walking. I guess another way to describe the differences would be that in Melee you have faster options that are still largely safe which means more positions you have to be ready for and have to wall off, while in SF it can be slower.

I kinda wanna write more but I should probably stop and see if you find this helpful.

 

[cinderssbm]

I am not sure movement is always necessary, but Fox can force you into moving. It may be better said that way in my view. If you default to always moving it's fine but then you must be very mindful of your actions on smaller levels.

The fox could just be sitting there due to you not getting close enough before jumping. But otherwise sure.


Ah yes, this is not an easy thing to explain to someone from a SF background. Melee is very odd in that you have a lot of quick attacks, but also a lot of potential for fakes that are not just walking forward and backward. Dashes and even jumps can be fakes and they're quite fast. That said, Marth can mitigate a ton of approaches between CC/pivot grab, Fair, and Dtilt. Dtilt patrols space in front of you, Fair beats them in the air, CC/ASDI down grab can be combined with Dtilt sometimes and generally just beats attacks into you, and pivot grab works with Dtilt and Fair and also with percent to shift your space around. Dtilt and Fair are kind of like a high/low core mixup in SF, while grab can just beat a lot of stuff generally lol.

Marth also can zone like some SF characters in that he can shift his space around with dashes that kind of function like walking back and forth, and he can poke with WD Dtilt or with slightly jumping forward with Fair. Note you can just not attack out of either option much like you can just walk forward without attacking in SF, though the options are more committal than SF walking. I guess another way to describe the differences would be that in Melee you have faster options that are still largely safe which means more positions you have to be ready for and have to wall off, while in SF it can be slower.

I kinda wanna write more but I should probably stop and see if you find this helpful.

Your comparison of the mechanics across the games and analysis of how they are similar and different is extremely helpful for me. I think this gives me a better idea of how melee works, but it's still going to take me some time to get used to the faster pace of the game. I'm a little bit unsure of how to feel about dash dancing at the moment. I appreciate how it gives me more ability to control my stage position but it does feel like a big commitment compared to walking in 2d games. I definitely would be interested if you have more to say about this stuff.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dash dance both is and is not a commitment. It is in that you lose grounded options and must move a large deal of space, and it is not in that it can be shifted to another dash in 1 frame or cut in another way such as jump quickly as well. The fact that it always can be canceled is a strong element of it.

 

[BoboKoz]

Hey PP I've been researching Tech chasing from throws against mainly spacies and falcon and I've noticed that when Zain d throw tech chases below 10% with spacies usually he does a preemptive dash forward and reacts to the tech here's an example:
https://youtu.be/hc6kcZelgbM?t=156
and another: https://youtu.be/SowD5q3PRKk?t=18

Hoever when I review Zains vods against captain falcon he does not preemptively dash forward
ex:https://youtu.be/SiHKxB1A3vQ?t=124
Is there even a reason to do these preemptive dashes in the first place?

Another question related to dthrow tech chasing against spacies/falcon below/arround 10% is that is it possible to react to every tech and option and regrab because im having a hard time reacting and regrabbing to tech in place and tech away for each of these characters.

 

[Kotastic]

In the order of importance for neutral game at a high level, how would you rank the following?

-Being unpredictable with your moves and movement
-Paying attention to opponent's habits
-Following matchup "principles" like avoiding Peach's DA.

Bit nebulous I know, but I'm wondering your thoughts since I've been really focusing on the first point a lot and wondering how important you think it is compared to the other two.

I'd also imagine that the ordering would change by matchup.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP I've been researching Tech chasing from throws against mainly spacies and falcon and I've noticed that when Zain d throw tech chases below 10% with spacies usually he does a preemptive dash forward and reacts to the tech here's an example:
https://youtu.be/hc6kcZelgbM?t=156
and another: https://youtu.be/SowD5q3PRKk?t=18

Hoever when I review Zains vods against captain falcon he does not preemptively dash forward
ex:https://youtu.be/SiHKxB1A3vQ?t=124
Is there even a reason to do these preemptive dashes in the first place?

Another question related to dthrow tech chasing against spacies/falcon below/arround 10% is that is it possible to react to every tech and option and regrab because im having a hard time reacting and regrabbing to tech in place and tech away for each of these characters.

Falcon is heavier, so Zain cannot get to the space at the same time as Fox because Marth is in throw animation longer.

Not if they DI down/away and tech away and their tech range doesn't get cut off by the edge. I think boost grab can occasionally extend your range enough in certain scenarios.

In the order of importance for neutral game at a high level, how would you rank the following?

-Being unpredictable with your moves and movement
-Paying attention to opponent's habits
-Following matchup "principles" like avoiding Peach's DA.

Bit nebulous I know, but I'm wondering your thoughts since I've been really focusing on the first point a lot and wondering how important you think it is compared to the other two.

I'd also imagine that the ordering would change by matchup.

Matchup principles are your foundation for doing the rest, so it is most important.

The other two are linked. If you know an opponent's habit, then you can punish it in various ways at that point. If you are unpredictable, you are far more likely to abuse opponent habits because they may only be covering certain things. That said, they are still perhaps worth considering separately. I may be personally biased in that I came up thinking opponent habits were more important than my own, since doing good things while exploiting them would be enough. But the more unpredictable you are, the more value you can get in many areas. It may be entirely preference based or based on what you need at a certain time.