When I talk about zoning, those options aren't what I mean. I'm referring more to attacks that you can shift around while doing and are often faster. So I'm drawing on the way SF footsies work and they may jab in place or throw out another move to catch someone moving in and otherwise if they whiff they're still fine unless they get called out fairly hard. Aerials are the closest analogy we have to that in Melee, where you can drift and either swing or not, and help establish space with it. Marth Dtilt also works in this way(though moreso in place/with walking/mayybe with shallow angle WD).
I imagine Fox must also be positioned perfectly beforehand, but that's good to know. Chances are you don't need to swing as much as you think, and just let your hitboxes threaten people. Less is more.
Setting up around Fair means sitting just outside of the Fair spacing in order to punish landing lag directly or indirectly. When you stop assuming people will always run into your Fair when they get close, you get to manipulate them moving closer but waiting.
Good example given what maxono is discussing above.
The first Fair Zain didn't need to do because it's unlikely KJH attacks from that distance. He didn't need to dash back after the Fair, or could've waited a tiny amount to confirm an actual approach. He could have Dtilt'd or jumped in place/slightly back again to preserve his position. The second jump back goes super far despite KJH's long dash back, and with no FF KJH is free to run in and corner Zain.
needed a bit of time to think about this one.
i like the SF analogy i think that games movement and spacing is kind of easier to understand because its simpler than melees.
"to catch someone moving in" i feel like this is a key detail i have like kind of known but its good to see it again being said clearly, that zoning is there to catch movement forward specifically.
so zoning is being able to catch somebodies movement forward into your range with a quick, low lag attack that requires some sort of a guess to punish hard, you can make the attack more ambiguous by using drift and mixing up the timing or not doing it altogether to have less lag and be able to get away from their whiff punish or to take advantage of them getting right outside your range and waiting.
i wonder how you would use not swinging in sf footsies to your advantage because iirc they dont use whiff punish on prediction that much. its probably the second thing then, where you take advantage of them waiting outside of your range by walking forward and then hitting them. kinda want to play it now.
so the reason you don't recommend nair forward is that its kind of telegraphed(because you mostly use hit 2), making the opponent not to have to guess as much and also drift back being kind of worse?
maybe also because people want to use nair forward when the opponent is waiting, making it easier for the opponent to react vs a nair in place is more used when the opponent wants to attack you so has a harder time reacting because they are acting themselves and want to hit you. maybe also because dash forward makes reaction windows smaller for the opponent than dash back if they are attacking themselves vs waiting.
and you recommend less is more vs falcon,esp at mid range because they have an easier time reacting to your jumps than other characters and also its harder to get away vs his overshoot(which is more of a reaction and less of a read) if you like whiff a dtilt and dash back or something? im not so sure about this one
good lord this is getting too complex.
I imagine Fox must also be positioned perfectly beforehand, but that's good to know. Chances are you don't need to swing as much as you think, and just let your hitboxes threaten people. Less is more.
yes he does, i tested it with 20xx and there was no ambiguity at all so i think it was much easier to punish there than it would be in a real game.
so thats probably when they expect that i will do it/have started to play around it?
do you use friendlies to experiment when to swing and when not to? i feel like that kind of experimentation with the opponents responses is an area that im lacking in severely.
Setting up around Fair means sitting just outside of the Fair spacing in order to punish landing lag directly or indirectly. When you stop assuming people will always run into your Fair when they get close, you get to manipulate them moving closer but waiting.
just to be clear moving closer and waiting is what they are doing right? thats actually really good, in the way i understand the game/neutral, when you know the other person will be waiting, that is the time to attack yourself.
saw this happen recently and wanted to ask what you thought about it:
https://clips.twitch.tv/AliveLovelyPoultryFUNgineer
Zain wanted to threaten fair, and it looks like KJH moved forward and stopped before reaching the range of zain's fair, which forced a mixup, and zain kept dashing back in response and cornered himself. What should zain have done to counter this? Its tough to say since kjh could attack at any point while being that close, but I think zain could have chosen to intercept him after the first time it happened by dashing forward and grabbing maybe.
those wd downs by kjh are pretty crazy, but i guess that is what pp means, he is moving closer to marth and waiting because he predicts the fair.
i hope this isnt too much. im grateful for your help pp. for real
