Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Zorcey]

Do you think it's possible to consistently edgeguard Puff recovering from that area close to and below the ledge? My current options are setting up spaced Dtilt to catch non-sweetspot DJs, and mixing in runoff Dair if I feel that I have a read on their jump timing/drift. I've tried playing around with taking the ledge and using DJ Dair or drop Bair/Fair or some runoff Fair or WD off Bair stuff, but with her jumps and airspeed and the threat of Pound, nothing feels like it's worth the risk (since I could just randomly die if I lose this position). The issue with my current options is that she gets back quite often, but I'm not sure if there's much I can do about it. Do you have suggestions, or am I better off just setting up to prevent her from getting off the ledge safely?

 

[Kotastic]

For juggling Marth, do you think similar to sheik it's good to be directly below him? While his dair is a better hitbox and immediate, it is also a huge risk for him to take so while maybe it's not necessarily guaranteed sharking, it's a very good risk reward position at least.

 

[Dr Peepee]

have some questions about the ditto

do you think using sh in place to fair from threatening range is a reliable way to beat grounded approaches, or is it too easy to react to and punish? I see so many marths that use it now, one of them being zain who seems to beat everyone by catching them wd in for dtilt and fairing/dairing them. I feel like it's a good way to beat those immediate wd in attacks but if I'm doing rc dtilts and dashing away from it or fairing it, I feel like it's only effective at discouraging dtilt with a lot of risk.

another question is about a situation that happens not only in the ditto but in other matchups too. Say I were to sh in place from threat range, yet they don't come in while im in the air. Once I land however, they move into me. At this point I'm thinking I want to confirm an approach before I do something, so I might dash away and prepare something out of that (run in grab/nair), but a lot of the time I end up losing stage and not getting anything off that. My thoughts are to mix different things out of landing like a dtilt in place to beat them running, or a retreating nair to beat them jumping over the dtilt. Is this the right way to play this kind of position?

I don't fully understand the last part of the first question, but yeah Fair is great at keeping people out. You could also Nair in place sometimes if crouch is a concern, though the move has to stay out a while to be useful so they could react. Dtilt tends to keep them out well as well.

Yeah that's all fine. Empty landing more is better here so you have less lag and move time to immediate aerial or Dtilt or whatever mixup.

Do you think it's possible to consistently edgeguard Puff recovering from that area close to and below the ledge? My current options are setting up spaced Dtilt to catch non-sweetspot DJs, and mixing in runoff Dair if I feel that I have a read on their jump timing/drift. I've tried playing around with taking the ledge and using DJ Dair or drop Bair/Fair or some runoff Fair or WD off Bair stuff, but with her jumps and airspeed and the threat of Pound, nothing feels like it's worth the risk (since I could just randomly die if I lose this position). The issue with my current options is that she gets back quite often, but I'm not sure if there's much I can do about it. Do you have suggestions, or am I better off just setting up to prevent her from getting off the ledge safely?

Late Fair also hits her below the edge, but of course it can send her up so it's not good past low percent(unless you just wish to dislodge her). Grabbing edge is usually not worth it I agree. It's not consistently possible to edgeguard her I think, but you can set up more than you may believe. If you run away as she comes in at first, that's fine to avoid pound and also she's likely to burn jumps anyway. Then when you come back in you can play the position freshly and she has less resources if she loses now. That sort of thing can help a lot. For pound, you can also shield sometimes and if she Bairs you can WD down to set up Dtilt or SH to set up Fair etc.

For juggling Marth, do you think similar to sheik it's good to be directly below him? While his dair is a better hitbox and immediate, it is also a huge risk for him to take so while maybe it's not necessarily guaranteed sharking, it's a very good risk reward position at least.

Being directly under both is good, but I find being slightly under at angle better vs Marth so it's harder for him to time the Dair and you still get your (dash) Uair and Fair benefits.

 

[AirFair]

I don't fully understand the last part of the first question, but yeah Fair is great at keeping people out. You could also Nair in place sometimes if crouch is a concern, though the move has to stay out a while to be useful so they could react. Dtilt tends to keep them out well as well.

What I meant was that if i am approaching from TR with a rc dtilt out of a long dash which is slower than a wd dtilt, couldnt I just avoid their fair by dashing away, or if I'm primed for it I could nair/fair them? I feel like at that point the sh just discourages dtilt and makes them scout the jump instead, which opens up me pressing into them for waiting instead of me getting to fair them since they can just avoid it.

 

[Kotastic]

Do you mean an angle in front or behind marth?

 

[Dr Peepee]

What I meant was that if i am approaching from TR with a rc dtilt out of a long dash which is slower than a wd dtilt, couldnt I just avoid their fair by dashing away, or if I'm primed for it I could nair/fair them? I feel like at that point the sh just discourages dtilt and makes them scout the jump instead, which opens up me pressing into them for waiting instead of me getting to fair them since they can just avoid it.

Yeah you can Fair sometimes, but if they drift back(or even forward) it can make timing it harder. But you can outspace them, or at least pressure their landing with run up Fair. Nair is less reliable to me here.

Do you mean an angle in front or behind marth?

Either can be good, but Dair does also hit in front at first. Can be worth keeping in mind. You don't always get to decide.

 

[Zorcey]

If you had a month to prepare for a matchup, but couldn’t play it at all until then, how would you go about practicing? I have two big, related problems here:

1. I figure a lot of shadowboxing will have to replace the friendlies, but I find it difficult to visualize and go through the motions of a position unless I have quite a bit of experience playing it already. I currently only use shadowboxing to stay practiced at situations I already know, but that feels like underselling it. I’m not sure how/if I can use it to internalize positional knowledge though.

2. When you can’t play friendlies, how do you integrate all the information you garner from analysis into your body? Application is so important, but something I’ve struggled with for a long time is having all this latent information on matchups I don’t practice stored in long word documents. I can’t tap into that information because I don’t REALLY know it, but I need to apply regularly to know it, right?

The answer to these might be the same, but I guess I’ll leave both up for the different perspectives.

 

[Dr Peepee]

That's a difficult question. Application is extremely important as you said.

I would firstly milk everything possible possible out of savestates. Especially regarding punish game. The harder you hit, the more you can focus on learning neutral as you go. Also if you counter as many possible approaches and close range moves and plays as much as possible, then you can guess with that in matches and adapt from there.

I'd come up with a massive amount of ideas to try out, and memorize them. When you play, just run through a bunch of them, and adapt to what they're doing with ideas you've developed. That's what I did and it worked alright.

 

[Kotastic]

How should I play vs Falco/Fox on side and top platform from your observation? Starting to think my strategy to fade back FH fair/bair isn't really the play anymore, and it feels like fade back fair is kinda insufficient vs side platform because they can FH over it I think. It feels like a big gamble to shark them from top platform too.

 

[Dr Peepee]

In your match vs Ginger, you did a lot of SH Uair at times where it literally couldn't hit or it was unlikely to hit. That would be the first thing to stop doing vs top platform.

Vs top platform on BF/DL, you need to have more patience. Swinging less here is definitely better. SH empty land sometimes, and you can Uair/pivot grab/etc if they come into you. Sometimes you can SH then DJ Fair/Bair to swipe at them and this will also help you get down faster if they run away because you can FF sooner. It's to harass them, not combo them. But it's safe.

Side platform vs Falco isn't sooo bad. He can't go as far to get you and doesn't fall as quickly. Plus if he's not putting a laser out then you get more run to maneuver around him. So you don't need to preemptively swing all the time or anything. Just play around his dash SH Dair range(he won't do this much if he's more advanced it's pretty punishable) then start pushing closer and working your Fair. Won't need to fadeback much if at all. His shield drop Fair won't convert to anything if it somehow hits anyway.

Fox is much harder to deal with on side platform. It's still a good idea to mess around on the SH Nair/Dair range in case he does it because it's harder to handle, but pushing in sometimes and not always fading back is then good. If he FHs over then you can just wait after pushing in more. Don't always assume immediate attack, you could dash in close then (wave)dash out if needed.

 

[Kotastic]

When under top platform, do you think I should be directly under the top platform?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Being directly under it is fine, but being directly under Falco is less good than being directly under Fox.

 

[Zorcey]

https://youtu.be/Ak4Zb4nPrmc?t=316 I do the same Nair as M2k a lot here, but would it ever be better to opt for Fair? Under what circumstances?

What makes you decide between Fair and Nair when you have Falcon at TR and want to zone him from there? I go based on what timing I want and then percent, but I think I should be weighing other factors maybe? Same question but for Falco.

What does "jumping defensively is pointless against Falco" really mean? That you shouldn't jump unless you expect to hit him or his shield?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Generally, swinging in that range is risky in general. I'd say Nair is usually better there, unless you can bait a specific timing from Falcon that Fair could give a better punish on.

If it's TR, then Fair can often be better so you can just opt to not swing if he starts to come in and set up grab instead. Nair is a big commitment, but that can work as a better bait.

If Falco is close enough to hit you, he might have a laser out and so you can't jump to beat him, and if you can then it's a mixup that he wins either way by waiting.

 

[Zorcey]

What would you do in that position versus Falcon to avoid the risks that come with swinging? Just wait? What would you be looking to confirm, in that case?

It makes sense to work Fair more at TR for the reasons you describe, but why Nair instead when closer?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I like long dashing in on Falcon a lot honestly. It puts you into a range where Nair opens up more, Dtilt can hit movement back, and he has to attack or grab in to deal with it which is fine for you. Those mid ranges are good for Marth when played like this, I think.

Nair is good when closer because the AC is less laggy, and it can also beat a grab or aerial at a lot of different timings(immediate counter or late timed whiff punish).

 

[Kotastic]

Do you think it is a talent to keep playing friendlies for 5+ hours with only marginal diminishing returns? I find that I have infinite stamina for playing friendlies and so does Zain, yet my friends cannot sustain more than an hour or so of productive friendlies. I have never had a problem with friendlies stamina unless I was significantly tired the day before or something. Any insights on this?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It's definitely an important skill to have endurance. Think of all the energy you use and Melee you play at tourneys. It's something you can build up by playing more(unless you have something like I do, etc). The idea has been called "smash cardio" which I think is pretty cool. This may be something that gets harder to maintain as one ages, so physical health should be maintained/improved to combat this imo. Winning often also tends to help playing longer.

I find many people like playing friendlies a long time because it takes them a long time to adapt, or they just adjust to longer sessions and adapt this way. This can hurt them in tourneys when they need to adjust within a set or within a game. So playing long sets is not always advisable, or breaks may be considered more to see differences in play when fresh or not.

 

[Kotastic]

What makes me believe that endurance might be a talent of mine is that I've always felt this way since day 1 of playing, never really feeling burned out without any real training. Though, I suppose one can argue that I did inadvertently train by playing lots of video games and cross country, but I'd bet many others have that background too. I played friendlies and mm's all three days of Shine with taking little breaks (Day 3 I'm pretty sure I played like 8+ hours total lol) and lesser extent Mainstage (Warmed up Zain for 1-2 hours and played out of region players for at least 3+ hours). I don't know what to tell people when they complain about getting burnt out or run out of stamina for productive friendlies even if they've been playing for years.

 

[flyboy__]

Might be late to the party, but having mental endurance in melee (at least for me) is correlated to the state of your health. If you're sleeping poorly, not eating well, are dehydrated, or are out of shape, your brain will tire out far easier. There have been multiple times where I've been playing like trash, grabbed food/took a break, then came back and whooped the same guy who'd been beating me for the last hour. Different people have different consumption, exercise, and sleep needs, so respecting your body really makes the grind easier.

 

[HolidayMaker]

Say Sheik is recovering from in an ambiguous space slightly above/out from the ledge, rather than going low and sweetspoting with double jump/up b. How do you generally cover that. A lot of your streamed Sheik sets and when I watch you vs Karn, the Sheik favors low recovery and you cover it very consistently with dair/ledge grab. For those that don't, do you favor just grabbing ledge, wavedash off bair (I've seen you do this), shield breaker stuff? What goes on in your head when you choose one of those options? Sorry for the wall of questions. I generally at least try to figure things out but couldn't get this one down on my own.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Runoff Fair, WD off Bair, DJ Dair. It just depends on spacing and Sheik percent. Weak Fair is useless low percents because Sheik can just recover anyway so you need tipper Bair or Dair, but Weak Fair is fine later mid and of course high percents. You may need to take percent into consideration. Also sometimes just standing close to edge makes Sheik antsy, so you don't always have to go down there. See if that helps.

 

[Zorcey]

When you long dash in, do you observe the opponent’s response during the dash itself, or during the action after (such as WD back or a jump)? I do the latter but I’m wondering if it’s not as effective (but I’m not sure it’s possible to register the response any sooner).

Also, how conscious are your observations at your level?

 

[Dr Peepee]

It can depend. So if the opponent is pretty primed to react/is a stronger player so they're more likely to, then I can react during dash in. Other times I move away and see what they did. It can depend on position and such as well.

Sometimes pretty conscious, sometimes mildly/not conscious. Depends on the setup. I also try to catalogue a decent amount between stocks/games.

 

[Zorcey]

It makes sense that it can depend on the player as well, something I’ve always struggled with is being disconcerted when people don’t seem to respond/respond in a way that’s unfamiliar.

Are the responses you catalogue generally universal for a matchup, or player-dependent? I figure you would have it worked out in advance which positions and options you think are very important to remember when you see them, but I sometimes find a player is just really comfortable in a position where many have exploitable habits, and sometimes their weak points are in places I’m not comfortable enough to abuse.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I can usually get a response at similar timings, but I have come to learn that WHAT they do can vary a lot. Because of this, I have to constantly re-evaluate what is "normal" and so my definition of this expands. It keeps me flexible. Keep in mind, doing nothing may be their response, or they may be waiting in general. So it can be important to keep an open mind when playing someone new and try to build your understanding based on all of the things you have seen as well as the person themselves.

 

[maxono1]

how detrimental do you guys think is hard l cancel for marth?
i think its pretty bad and can get you killed if you play a spacie because you have to tech so often but idk about marth

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm not sure it's the biggest deal, as even just getting knocked down vs not doing so can be difficult for spacies to follow up on sometimes. It is good to be able to tech when you want though so lighter presses could give some benefit long term.

 

[Kotastic]

How do you feel about Peach and puff juggles again? They obviously feel flawed as they go down in a vacuum sense than Marth/Sheik, but they have so many chances getting down with their tools that it feels like they're bound to find some cracks if trying to go for infinite upairs. Pushing them offstage doesn't feel very beneficial since edgeguarding them isn't as effective as opposed to pushing marth and sheik offstage.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I don't prefer going for juggles on those characters, especially on DL and kinda BF. Peach is much easier than Puff though because her float and DJ can be burned relatively easily, whereas Puff gets many more chances. Still, pushing both characters offstage is beneficial because they can't weave over your head as easily. If they do, then they have likely burned multiple resources to do so, which makes things easier for you anyway. It tends to make more sense as you get the steps outlined better.

 

[Agrathor3]

So after some pretty extensive testing in the pikachu matchup I have reached the conclusion that with all of pikas timing mix ups on his up b it isn't really worth it to try and land the dtilts to edgeguard especially since he can just safely recover after and if I happen to whiff then he ledge dashes into me and now I have a pika on top of me which often leads to me being tossed off and gimped so instead what I'm doing is conceding ledge to him and abusing the advantage marth has over pika on stage and especially when pika is in the corner. That being said I will still cover certain timings on the upb once they think I'm going to concede ledge.

PP I have a question about improvement so I've noticed that I simply do my inputs too slowly compared to better players but I don't like practicing on 20xx since my comp is meh it doesn't feel the same as my CRT setup. What I'm wondering is before 20xx how did you practice doing everything as fast as possible? Is there a good strat or should I just keep trying to do the thing faster and faster?

Do you use the c stick for rising aerials or do you press a? The moon says that he does double fairs to he left with c and to the right with a is that normal? I'm wondering because I exclusively use the c stick that way I can control my drift better. <--- thats a question for everyone I'm just curious about what y'all do

 

[Dr Peepee]

I would slowly speed it up until it messed up and then scale it back until I was getting it again. It becomes about feel at that point. This is good practice in general still.

C stick is best for drift control, and I use C stick for Uair. I will eventually switch primarily to C stick.

 

[Kotastic]

Very often whenever I'm facing away from my opponent and they are like a point blank distance away from me from a disadvantageous position, I often dash back because I feel like it's my only good option to use, which results from them getting a good read punish from my dash back. I can't think of much of what Marth can do aside from buffering a roll in.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dash through them, dash WD away, dash SH Bair away, shield are all some good options you can try instead.

 

[Kotastic]

how would dash WD away be any different than a long dash back?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Depending on how the opponent attempts to punish, you would be moving farther away than just with a long dash so they could miss.

 

[Zorcey]

What do you think are the best ways to deal with Fox’s approaching aerials when he’s at low percents on small stages like YS? Later Fairs are extremely risky when I don’t have very much space, and I can’t dash back often for that same reason. I feel like I’m always inside his TR and have to constantly outplay him on small stages (YS is my worst stage in the matchup by far).

 

[Dr Peepee]

I believe YS is the worst stage for that matchup anyway.

I do agree dash back is much less good, and swinging is riskier since if you whiff and he's close you may have to play a mixup you don't like. But I think the strategy on YS is more about focusing on swinging and less on moving since he can't avoid your sword and you have less room to retreat. You just can't zone so easily either. So empty landing a little more to give you more frames, or running in and retreating Fair could give you a bit more room, and perhaps approaching rising Fair occasionally could work more, etc.

 

[Agrathor3]

Hey PP I saw your update and I must say you're looking good

I'm struggling a lot in the marth mirror and I'm not really sure how to play the matchup do you have any advice for the mirror that I can start to build my gameplan around?

 

[Zorcey]

PP has some rules he often shares for the matchup:

- Dtilt them
- Jump when they jump
- Throw them up and kill them

I found these quite useful as a starting place for building my gameplan against Marth.