Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[quixotic]

Do you generally react to spot dodge against Spacies/Sheik when pressuring shield / tech chasing, or do you read it? From your experience do you think it is feasible to react consistently to spot dodge? It can be hard to tell whether a player I'm watching has reacted to or read the spot dodge but I find spot dodge is really effective as a defensive/panic tool against my Marth, while much less effective against top Marths, as when I try to react I usually get shined, double spot dodged or spot dodge rolled, but Marths such as Zain seem to flawlessly react or read the spot dodge almost every time.

GENERAL INFORMATION if this helps anyone reading this: JC grab takes at minimum 8 frames + at least 1 frame to dash forwards so usually 9 frames bare minimum. Fox is actionable and can shine as soon as frame 24 after beginning a spot dodge given the spot dodge is buffered and the Fox shields for 1 frame, Fox can double spot dodge as soon as frame 26 given 1 frame of shield for a buffered spot dodge. The sound queue for Fox's spot dodge also comes out on frame 2, subtracting 1 frame from your reaction time. This gives you generally between 13-15 frames to react given a frame perfect DD grab. For comparison, reacting to tech in place gives 17-19 frames but lacks an audio queue (actionable frame 27, frame 29 for spot dodge). Your reaction time will also be reduced by input lag, which is typically between 3 and 5 frames.

You want to already be dashing towards them by the time you react to spotdodge so jc grab is 8 frames.
spotdodge is frame 24/25 depending on buffer, shine frame 23
dfox uses 14-15 frame reaction time, so you can definitely grab spotdodge every time
shine is hard(need 14 frame reactions) but keep in mind that if the fox player holds down before pressing shine, he goes into crouch, which happens a lot even at the top level(leffen vs zain)

 

[Taytertot]

So I’ve been kinda playing tennis metaphorically with an idea that has me a little confused. I read the inner game of tennis and I definitely realize how much better I play when I’m not pointing out my own mistakes all the time but when attempting to learn a new aspect of the game or trying to refine something that I haven’t spent much time on then I end up sacrificing my gameplay to the point where I sometimes don’t even feel that I’m learning the aspect properly due to being too consciously focused on it. Am I approaching my learning improperly or do I have to except that I’m going to play worse until I can proficiently apply a given aspect? Examples being that I don’t punish oos options well and need to learn to wait and get a feel for what my opponent will do and then also come up with a handful of options that I like for covering those options but the extra focus that my conscious mind is putting into learning this means that I don’t always react fast enough to actually get the punish.

 

[Orange5000]

Is it ever worth purposefully trying to grab fox’s nair (or maybe other aerials with low disjoint) as a way to guess him approaching, or do you just accept it as something that just happens occasionally? Arguments against it would be that marth’s grab comes out slower than fox’s nair (marth a longer jumpsquat and grab is 3f slower), so the nair in must be read in advance, and that spacing the disjoint looks kind of precise. However, from this figure:

maybe outranging nair is actually easier to do than expected?

Or if marth wants to guess fox will nair in, maybe better to just do it with his own ac nair, since that has more range, can fade it back, and has much less endlag? I.e. just easier to win using ac nair instead, and if marth guesses wrong he’s safer compared to if he grabbed. Nair can also obtain you a knockdown where you can then get a grab through the tech chase. Right?

 

[Kotastic]

When puffs are drifting in with their fh/sh as I dash away and then drifting back to land right outside of my pivot fair, I feel like it puts me in a weird spot. I think that nair is usually good to use here to hit them coming up again, but I usually like to fake it after it works to see if they will wait or lunge with something like fsmash/DA. Is the solution to keeping them from landing so close to me doing earlier pivot fairs? Or do I need to play the mixup once she's landed? I've been looking at myself vs puff and I think that in general I often fair much later then I should, usually since I'm waiting for a landing instead of trying to hit her while she's still in the air, since I'm afraid of a bad trade.

Sometimes you need to snipe puff in the air, so at times I would suggest going for pivot fair earlier. If you find yourself out of range as she's landing, I would suggest playing mixup as she lands with dash grab vs waiting and striking. So you're in the right train of thought imo. If you're spaced with your aerials especially in place, you should not worry about trades.

what i want to know is what would the ideal outcome would be if i know fox would likely be shielding in x situation.

without a grab i dont get how i am supposed to get anything significant off of that situation.
a rising fair to read a jump imo is just as risky as grab because it can be punished on reaction with wd oos forward into jab, uptilt or upsmash if i dont drift back out of his wd range which is pretty far, in this case he can pressure my landing and i lose a lot of stage.
a dtilt if it hits gets me a mixup of "do i grab"(which if i guess wrong is the same risk as just guessing wrong on him shielding and i get grabbed or combod otherwise) at most and a little bit of dmg and if it gets read and he wds into me with asdi down he can cc punish me for it until ridiculous percents.
also just sitting out of his shield range like it is possible with falcon is also pretty dumb because i have to dash back to not get hit by his wd attacks when he wd oos forward. which means he can wd down or do a shallow wd to get me to retreat.
grabbing his wd here would also be a mixup because i can only react to his jumpsquat and not that hes wd toward me
this doesnt make sense, i have to retreat when i see him wd oos?? this means he can just shield over and over and gain stage until the end of time?
this is my problem here, without taking risks with grab i feel like fox shielding is just unstoppable.

I think it helps to think that Marth dictates the pace in that advantageous position. It's possible to get outplayed, but the Fox is certainly outplaying you harder by guessing your tempo essentially in addition to also guessing the correct option to do. Remember that every Fox worries about Marth's grab combos especially if your punish game is on point, so you compound a lot of pressure with that threat. Think about how M2K pressures with his grabs in those advantageous situations and how many Fox can't help but spotdodge or something. I think it helps to start there.

Been a while since I asked for help here but anyway:

I played a marth ditto in tournament the other day and I noticed that I seem to have more trouble with smaller stages like yoshi's and FoD since I have less room to dash back. With that in mind do you think it would be more beneficial to adapt a playstyle similar to mango's marth where he controls space with aerials and less so with movement on these smaller stages?

And I guess a follow up would be how to practice against characters who seem to have a less flowchart punish game compared to like marth or shiek?? I don't really have any practice partners who play these characters so I was thinking shadowboxing with a cpu, staying outside of their move's ranges and working on shield stops and movement in general. And watching a whole bunch of vods. Anything else I should do?

You are right that smaller stages generally discourages movement since attack zoning are so prevalent basically anywhere. So yes, focus more on zoning and less on movement.

Since they don't exactly have the most flowcharty punish game like spacies, I would suggest working on juggling, edgeguarding, and situations that give the most returns such as nair fsmash tech in place punish, uptilting/fsmashing tech rolls, etc.. I would also strongly suggest to critically think about the weaknesses of those characters and consider your strongest tools to use against them.

yo I thought of another question today so I'm gonna post that now instead of waiting lol

how do I keep myself prepared for many different matchups? I have notes on my computer to kind of refresh myself on the important points of neutral/punish, but beyond that, I feel like I'm not sure how to balance practicing for multiple matchups effectively while solo practicing (like practicing punishes/shadowboxing neutral situations)

currently I just work on whatever I feel I'm the weakest in, and spend as much time as I need to work those things out, but I feel like I end up losing a bit of that refinement when I switch over to focusing hard on another matchup. I want to do things efficiently, so I can really bring out my best in tournament instead of feeling off my footing for the first bit of some sets.

I personally prepare for each matchup by having mental notes of not just neutral/punish, but also noting to myself of that character's greatest weaknesses and how I can abuse that against them. You should also think about potential gimmicks they might abuse and how you can negate that. I think having those principles embedded mentally helps strings everything together, at least for me personally.

So I’ve been kinda playing tennis metaphorically with an idea that has me a little confused. I read the inner game of tennis and I definitely realize how much better I play when I’m not pointing out my own mistakes all the time but when attempting to learn a new aspect of the game or trying to refine something that I haven’t spent much time on then I end up sacrificing my gameplay to the point where I sometimes don’t even feel that I’m learning the aspect properly due to being too consciously focused on it. Am I approaching my learning improperly or do I have to except that I’m going to play worse until I can proficiently apply a given aspect? Examples being that I don’t punish oos options well and need to learn to wait and get a feel for what my opponent will do and then also come up with a handful of options that I like for covering those options but the extra focus that my conscious mind is putting into learning this means that I don’t always react fast enough to actually get the punish.

It is normal to learn that way as you're still making connections to make it a muscle memory, naturally interfering with other aspects of your game. I would say if you're competing in tournament, put your learning aside temporarily. In friendlies, definitely play to learn even if you make mistakes. With daily proper practice, the process should come together faster.

Is it ever worth purposefully trying to grab fox’s nair (or maybe other aerials with low disjoint) as a way to guess him approaching, or do you just accept it as something that just happens occasionally? Arguments against it would be that marth’s grab comes out slower than fox’s nair (marth a longer jumpsquat and grab is 3f slower), so the nair in must be read in advance, and that spacing the disjoint looks kind of precise. However, from this figure:

maybe outranging nair is actually easier to do than expected?

Or if marth wants to guess fox will nair in, maybe better to just do it with his own ac nair, since that has more range, can fade it back, and has much less endlag? I.e. just easier to win using ac nair instead, and if marth guesses wrong he’s safer compared to if he grabbed. Nair can also obtain you a knockdown where you can then get a grab through the tech chase. Right?

It's probably not reliable, but you're crazy if you can make it reliable.

 

[Heyzeus_18]

Hey PP! I am 15 and I have been going to my locals here and there since mid 2016 and have been to all 3 shines (going to my 4th). In tournament at my 10-20 man locals i usually go 0-2 and it has been like that for over a year (been to like 4 locals in that time frame) and went 2-2 last shine. I feel like i havent gotten better at all. I main fox btw. So I was wondering, do you know anything I can do to get past this brick wall. Thanks in advance.

P.S i love your falco

 

[Dr Peepee]

Sorry I haven't been responding all. I stopped getting notifications for this place again??

When I get stuck HeyZeus, I return to the basics. How can I combo better? How can I get more grabs in the case of Fox, or other combo starters? What am I losing to in neutral? Do I know how to beat common defense and offensive strategies? How is my DI? And so on. Just keep working at the basics and you'll see where you are and weak and how to improve. If you have any questions about that let me know.

 

[Heyzeus_18]

Sorry I haven't been responding all. I stopped getting notifications for this place again??

When I get stuck HeyZeus, I return to the basics. How can I combo better? How can I get more grabs in the case of Fox, or other combo starters? What am I losing to in neutral? Do I know how to beat common defense and offensive strategies? How is my DI? And so on. Just keep working at the basics and you'll see where you are and weak and how to improve. If you have any questions about that let me know.

Thanks pp, will do! i think im starting to realize im thinking to hard and going at a faster pace at learning than i shoud be so its just not working out, since i have alot of time ill just take things slow and return to the basics like you said... thanks alot pp

ps. tell tape to stop being bully -Heyjuice

 

[Zorcey]

How can I make defensive Foxes approach using only the threat of Dtilt? Once the Fox respects Dtilt, I can feel how the threat becomes attached to my dash/WD in, but I often find I have to get quite close before they'll respond, meaning I have to dash far in and play a pretty risky game if the Foxes mixes up dash back and jumping fairly well. The issue is when Fox won't come in without me getting into his space even when I win these interactions, because then I have to keep approaching and I don't feel like that's playing to Marth's strengths. (At the same time, the Fox is conceding control of the match to me and freeing up my DD by not approaching, which should be very beneficial to Marth, but I'm not sure how to exploit these things yet.)

I figure part of the solution is using partial approaches to feint better with the Dtilt (one problem could be that I'm not convincing enough when I move in), but I'm not sure how to go about practicing this. Part of it could also be I'm not sure how to just "take space" comfortably. How do you recommend practicing these on my own?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Two basic mixups are run in retreating Fair and run in WD back. These give you a chance to observe and will also counter whatever he does aggressively unless he runs in earlier. If Fox is letting you run in deeply, then you get the chance to do this more for free. You can also move in and Fair in place, or just move in some and take your free stage where you can begin applying more pressure through letting him move back or you get close enough to outrange him with Fair/Dtilt. It does not always have to be an all or nothing.

 

[Zorcey]

When you use retreating Fair in this situation, what would you suggest doing after landing when you don’t hit Fox? (This should be determined by what you observed about how he responded to you moving in during the hang time of the Fair, correct?)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Partly determined by that yes, but also by how close you two are among other things. After landing you could wait a moment, jump in place or hold down to prime Dtilt to hold space, or move in now that he might be preparing to go in and you can intercept. You can also move back. So, you can do anything.

 

[Zorcey]

How do you balance holding center against Puff and using DD to match her weave patterns? When I have center I'm not sure if I should skew towards zoning instead of movement or not.
I find if Puff respects my movement in it's easier to bully her into the corner or above and away, which is great, but I often have to concede space until she lands if she gets into the air first, which means I should try to set up outside her drift in aerial range and outrange her so I can keep the space? But this sacrifices mobility and doesn't let me pressure her well, which I don't like. How do you decide between zoning and movement?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I generally don't zone Puff all that much except as a mixup because if you jump too much she can snipe you or weave around you. You only need to move away a bit before coming back in, and if it takes a bit that's okay because Puff requires time sometimes. Beyond that, be sure to know positions that are safe to jump in, and what timings of Fair/Nair beat her aerials, mainly Bair, in ways that work well for you.

 

[Kotastic]

Hey PP, got some questions.

We've talked about this concept before but I need a refresher. When spacing a fair on shield, how exactly am I invalidating that position when they immediately act out of it by WD OoS, almost as if they wanted that to happen?

Sometimes I like doing your DJ head refresh poke you do across various mu's to make it look like I'll fair onstage but then FF to ledge, but I find that's simply not possible in the puff mu because her spaced bair naturally beats this poke. I feel like hell just trapped in the ledge and not sure what to do aside from timing a perfect ledgedash or going for a counter, otherwise I kinda just hang on there.

Do you believe double dtilt is generally the best option to do vs icies?

Do you perhaps have a flowchart for edgeguarding doc? I have no clue on how Marth is supposed to consistently edgeguard doc when recovering high, he pills without using dj. Going low, hogging ledge DJ dair doesn't work due to his side-B stall and mixing up any timing to his up-B makes it scary to me.

Also Doc's dair hitbox is huuuge. I find it very hard to consistently shark Doc in addition to his airdodge and side-b stall mixups and often not really sure what's the play to get decent returns off of throwing Doc up.

Speaking of side-B, there's a weird spacing to when throwing Marth offstage, how do you cover them immediately side-b'ing at a certain area below stage where hogging ledge DJ dair wouldn't hit them?

When you said that I could improve my edgeguards vs Fox, what prime examples did you have in mind that I can improve on? I'm not really sure how to consistently edgeguard Fox when he up-b's low and close to the wall.

What do you think are reliable ways of edgeguarding Fox shine stalling below stage, timing to not get hit by dtilt?

How would you cover Falco FH'ing to BF top platform? I suppose this can apply to to other stages as well, but on BF he NIL there.

What do you think are best options to beat Falcon nair from ledge or his wd back dj nair?

How would you pressure marth/sheik shielding on the center of platform? I feel like I can do more than just fade back fair pokes.

From observing me, what do you think are some examples of my bad swinging habits?

Not sure if you know this vs Pikachu, but apparently there's this fsmash edgeguard where if you teeter near the ledge, you can react to the startup of Pikachu's up-B and if you fsmash at that timing, you usually hit the Pikachu's second part of his QA snapping to ledge. Apparently this has been a thing with old SB info, so do you believe that this is a reliable edgeguard?

 

[Zorcey]

Not sure if you know this vs Pikachu, but apparently there's this fsmash edgeguard where if you teeter near the ledge, you can react to the startup of Pikachu's up-B and if you fsmash at that timing, you usually hit the Pikachu's second part of his QA snapping to ledge. Apparently this has been a thing with old SB info, so do you believe that this is a reliable edgeguard?

Idk about the teeter version specifically (as far as I know that's just how you maximize the range of the Fsmash), but there's this Summit set where PP does these types of Fsmashes edgeguards against Axe. https://youtu.be/r_g5Gdr42ig?t=119 is an example.

 

[AirFair]

How do you recover around fox using his ledgehop refresh to jump over your upb hitbox? I keep trying to upb to hit him coming down onto the ledge and it usually misses and I get edgehogged. Even when I early upb and hit him he is sometimes able to land onstage and shine/dsmash me so I die anyway, so it feels like there is no answer besides just upb'ing onto the stage and taking a punish.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dude I keep not getting notified here lol. Alright well I guess I'll just manually check daily....

Hey PP, got some questions.

We've talked about this concept before but I need a refresher. When spacing a fair on shield, how exactly am I invalidating that position when they immediately act out of it by WD OoS, almost as if they wanted that to happen?

Sometimes I like doing your DJ head refresh poke you do across various mu's to make it look like I'll fair onstage but then FF to ledge, but I find that's simply not possible in the puff mu because her spaced bair naturally beats this poke. I feel like hell just trapped in the ledge and not sure what to do aside from timing a perfect ledgedash or going for a counter, otherwise I kinda just hang on there.

Do you believe double dtilt is generally the best option to do vs icies?

Do you perhaps have a flowchart for edgeguarding doc? I have no clue on how Marth is supposed to consistently edgeguard doc when recovering high, he pills without using dj. Going low, hogging ledge DJ dair doesn't work due to his side-B stall and mixing up any timing to his up-B makes it scary to me.

Also Doc's dair hitbox is huuuge. I find it very hard to consistently shark Doc in addition to his airdodge and side-b stall mixups and often not really sure what's the play to get decent returns off of throwing Doc up.

Speaking of side-B, there's a weird spacing to when throwing Marth offstage, how do you cover them immediately side-b'ing at a certain area below stage where hogging ledge DJ dair wouldn't hit them?

When you said that I could improve my edgeguards vs Fox, what prime examples did you have in mind that I can improve on? I'm not really sure how to consistently edgeguard Fox when he up-b's low and close to the wall.

What do you think are reliable ways of edgeguarding Fox shine stalling below stage, timing to not get hit by dtilt?

How would you cover Falco FH'ing to BF top platform? I suppose this can apply to to other stages as well, but on BF he NIL there.

What do you think are best options to beat Falcon nair from ledge or his wd back dj nair?

How would you pressure marth/sheik shielding on the center of platform? I feel like I can do more than just fade back fair pokes.

From observing me, what do you think are some examples of my bad swinging habits?

Not sure if you know this vs Pikachu, but apparently there's this fsmash edgeguard where if you teeter near the ledge, you can react to the startup of Pikachu's up-B and if you fsmash at that timing, you usually hit the Pikachu's second part of his QA snapping to ledge. Apparently this has been a thing with old SB info, so do you believe that this is a reliable edgeguard?

Their WD OOS is irrelevant to the point. Fair'ing in a way is irrelevant to the point. The point is that you can beat out whatever they do and you can threaten them safely from the position in which you CAN Fair. So if they are waiting for the Fair, you can simply wait and not Fair, or do it slightly later etc. You are in control.

Haxdash is pretty important vs Puff. NIL can get around her spaced Bair that beats late Fair from the edge, and edgejump may be useful in some situations.

Double Dtilt is good vs ICs, but if they roll away or WD back it is not so good. Once in a while is probably okay, but experimenting is important here. I tend to prefer Dtilt into react.

I don't know why Doc would make you struggle, you just refresh or go out with Bair if he's low or stalling, and if he's high you swat pills then Bair/Fair him. I'd have to see what you're struggling with to know.

You can Utilt and I think Uair his Dair. Trading is not the worst thing ever. Oh you could probably Bair/Fair it too. Shield grab it or DD grab it if you have to I guess. I don't think you need to throw Doc up though as the side throws give you what you need usually iirc.

If Marth side Bs low, you can sometimes drop a bit lower DJ Dair and up-B barely make it to edge. Lower than that you need to either drop up-B or sweetspot Bair them usually. Sometimes you can runoff up-B them depending on positioning. It just depends.

Fair will cover a lot of Fox up-B angles and gives you a chance to punish the tech. Dtilt can too but it's more difficult to time and helps their tech window. You can drop DJ Dair or drop up-B their up-B invincibly, even the weak hit is good. Pushing them away from the wall with reverse Fair or weak up-B can set you up for a kill. You can also grab edge then drop side B them to lock out their tech timing then hit them against the wall. Lots to do there, be sure to experiment.

Fair helps cover shine stall DJ, and you can grab edge and do some mixups I mentioned before if you want. I think you just need to wait on the Dtilt timing though, most Marths still swing really early and Fox gets to sweetspot for free.

Sometimes you can't cover Falco FH'ing there, but if he's cornered that's a FH Fair or a DJ Uair to hit his landing. If he's in center not so much you can always do though.

You can counter Falcon Nair, Fair around it, Dtilt it, shield grab it sometimes I think? The DJ one you can Fair and definitely shield grab so it should be much easier to handle.

Fair in place on their shield is pretty safe. From there, you can begin to wait more, mix in some running under fadeback Fairs, and probably other things but I haven't really labbed it or thought about it. I think denying them a real way to play there with Fair is good enough for me.

It's mostly swinging at too similar of timings, but I would remember better if I had answered this on Monday when I remembered your play better lol.

Like Zorcey said, I've known that for years. Dtilt gives you an easier reaction and helps you cover more stuff but Fsmash can kill. Tai does this vs Axe.

How do you recover around fox using his ledgehop refresh to jump over your upb hitbox? I keep trying to upb to hit him coming down onto the ledge and it usually misses and I get edgehogged. Even when I early upb and hit him he is sometimes able to land onstage and shine/dsmash me so I die anyway, so it feels like there is no answer besides just upb'ing onto the stage and taking a punish.

Try to hit him with the reverse tip if you can. But that's not always possible so sometimes those other up-Bs hit him and it can be bad for you. It can help to change up when/if you side B so you can up-B straight to edge when he DJs, but sometimes your recovery will be too linear as you are farther away so you have to take more of a punish.

 

[Kotastic]

I think my fundamentals vs puff is pretty poor. I think that mu directly feeds into my worst habits of swinging in the wrong positions that gets me very blown up, and I'm not sure how I should reframe my approach to the mu. I guess I just don't understand puff's positions whether she chooses to land around ground level or dj's.

Whenever I'm cornered, I'm not really sure how I can fight my way out of the position as puff makes it feel like hell. Even if I do have some room to retreat, I feel like I'm not making that count as opposed to other mu's where their moves are a bit more...committal? Whereas puff can just throw out a safe poking bair. Alternatively, I feel like I'm not making the puff's life hell whenever they're cornered, and often I feel like I let them get to platforms too much, they somehow pound me, or they dj from the ledge and go over me in addition to that pound mixup. How can I play out of the corner better, and how can I corner puff better?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Part of it would be learning how to beat what she does after fully retreating Bair or at least pressuring it, while also covering her coming in at all. Covering her coming in does not pressure her moving away in most instances unless you dash away as she Bairs then dash back in as she drifts away though, or you wait from outside Bair range farther away/land with a potential aerial as she drifts away. So that would be a good start.

Practicing reacting to pound startup is pretty useful, and even if you can't always get a grab off of it you can still swat her for it which can discourage the option. Then that would just leave the regular aerial mixup but with platforms. You playing closer at that point can help you cover platforms.

 

[Kotastic]

how would you react to pound startup when the move comes out in frame 12?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I dunno, I've just done it. I guess if you're worried about it you could dash/SH back a little more when she starts to get closer. Reactions do improve with practice though, so I imagine it's still worth experimenting with. If not, you could at least look for what Puffs like to do before using Pound and preparing around that.

 

[AirFair]

How do you effectively train adapting to someone? Is it just something you get from having a stronger gameplan and/or does it come from a lot of thinking about countering their possible adaptations to you?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You first learn what to beat basic options with(all possibilities). Then you learn how to cover groups of those most effectively. Then you see what people like to do after shutting down a single or group of options. From there, you can pull in that single counter or group of counters that also covers the adaptation, or you can wait and observe it and then go into it. Practicing this is imagining that they have made this adaptation and you begin practicing switching your timing/coverage/etc to beat it. That's shadowboxing.

 

[Kotastic]

PP if I were to fair at someone, it should usually be in place right? So I should generally close in with dash/walk --> fair rather than drift in fair right? I think this might be key for fairing icies/luigi.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Drift in Fair can be okay if you do it pretty late and don't FF sometimes, but yeah moving forward then doing it in place will generally be safer if you can get the Fair out.

 

[Zorcey]

Do you think drifting in on a Rising Fair is ever okay against characters who jump a lot like Fox? (I would assume it should still be used sparingly since it’s very risky.)

Are there tools of Fox’s you believe Nair in place is better at beating out than Fair in place? I find Nair is very good to catch jumps before he gets out an aerial, but Fair almost always seems better for an actual air-to-air because it’s a better disjoint+angle (but because it’s a quick swing it requires a sense of Fox’s exact timing). Am I correct or missing something?

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can do it, moreso against Fox as you said, but the risk is very real there.

Fair is better if you time it correctly, but Nair can cover more timings. Nair can be better vs shield and vs crouch.

 

[Kotastic]

Does the fair threat when the opponent is cornered only apply when you're already jumping? How different is the position if Marth is grounded instead?

Also, I'm not really sure what to do in this position visualized here: https://clips.twitch.tv/DirtyKathishMetalFloof
My gameplan vs Sheik on platform is to nair her runoff fair so I get a decent combo startup. However, I don't really know what to do when she kinda just sits on the platform and mixes going to the top platform. Any suggestions?

 

[Dr Peepee]

No, it exists when you are in place/moving forward as well. People cannot react to immediate Fair coming out after all. But if you jump and do not immediately Fair, then of course it's just that much more obvious what you are threatening. Grounded, it is more ambiguous.

You Fair her. Nair is unlikely to beat Sheik on side platforms because the front part hits low.

 

[Kotastic]

I would disagree of using fair at low percents because often it doesn't net me much compared to nair. I don't see how fair would help me beat sheik camping on platforms as described in the clip.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Getting hit is not good comparatively. Also, catching Sheik coming off the platform with Fair can lead to cleaner punishes if it's a mid or late Fair, as any SDI could still be punishable, whereas for Nair this is not true.

In the beginning of the clip, if you SH'd instead of Nair'ing right away(which Fair allows you to do), you could wait and either Uair or FF land Utilt or dash away to set up grab. You could have run and SH Fair'd the FH needle onto the platform afterward.

 

[Orange5000]

There’s a mechanic in melee that I know players have noticed yet doesn’t seem well documented. So here is a review for what I’m referring to as aerial hitbox deformation.

Aerial hitboxes deform around your skeleton depending on how you’re traveling through the air (rising, falling, fading left, right, or neutral). A rough guess on how the game calculates hitbox deformation is it extends aerial hitboxes in the opposite direction of your character’s velocity vector in the xy-plane. Every aerial hitbox has a defined “neutral deformation”, which is what the hitbox look like at (x,y) velocity (0,0). From the examples below, I postulate that the neutral deformation of an aerial hitbox is the minimum size an aerial hitbox can be. I only have melee setup on CRT with 20xxTE for GameCube, and the mechanic covered in this post can definitely be explored further and with more precise tools.

Using frame-perfect pauses to show how drastic some of these aerial hitbox deformations can be, I think aerial hitbox deformation is a nontrivial consideration to factor in melee interactions. Of course, depending on the interaction, its effect may be more or less present.

First I will post some comparitive examples using Falco’s nair and varying the degree of drift on it. I’m using his nair since it has a static animation until it ends.


SH no drift nair, at the apex of jump (so Falco’s x velocity and y velocity both 0). Below is the neutral deformation of Falco’s nair

Falco no drift falling nair. The aerial hitbox deformation here is an upward extension

SH fade forward nair at apex of jump (X velocity negative, Y velocity 0). It’s subtle but there’s slightly less disjoint on the front of nair. The faster falco is drifting forward, the more the disjoint shrinks

SH fade back nair at apex of jump (X velocity positive, Y velocity 0). It’s subtle but there’s slightly more disjoint at the front of nair

This is the Falco nair hitbox you’ll find on the wiki. As you can see, whatever method they used to capture the hitbox shows Falco falling straight down while nairing. This is NOT what Falco’s nair hitbox looks like if he’s drifting in either direction and/or rising

In fact, this is what Falco’s nair would look like if he‘s, say, double jumping or rising with a FH

Finally, here is a brief example with Marth’s nair.

SH fade forward nair (fading left)

SH fadeback nair (fading right), same frame

Discussion.

As an immediate consequence, aerial hitbox deformation clearly buffs fadeback aerials, on top of all the other things fadeback aerials have going for them. Also, Puff’s Bair disjoint is menacing when she’s fading away at full momentum; this along with the previous examples motivates the following hypothesis: that the amount of extension on a deformation is proportional to the speed your character is drifting in. If so, then in rare cases, perhaps your character could even get some extra hitbox extension by inheriting speed from the knockback of an opponent’s attack. It would be very interesting to know if your aerials have extra disjoint when say sliding off a platform, since you’re traveling at high speed in that moment. Unfortunately don’t think it’s possible for me to test this by myself with my basic melee setup.

Here’s some basic examples of aerial hitbox deformations affecting interactions

* Aerial hitbox deformation explains why when two of the same character collide identical aerials at the same time, that the one fading more back most often wins
* It also might explain why, to do the Ginger nair, you always have to fade it back to avoid trading with Firefox
* For a non fadeback example, see Sheik’s nair OoS, which is buffed by aerial hitbox deformation since the downward extension as she rises helps cover her belly and hit grounded opponents below/in front of her
* In the Marth ditto, to avoid trading air-to-air while sharking under the other marth (you sometimes can get hit by the bottom of his fair or random falling dairs), avoid hitting him while rising up or fading in; you can probably practice saving double jumps to get that last second reverse in momentum to win air-to-air situations. Def lots of ways to use DJ Uair or DJ Bair to own Marth when he’s coming down
* Lots of characters can edgeguard using run off -> DJ aerial back onto stage, which is doubly buffed by this mechanic by extending aerial hitboxes both out and down

To play around with this mechanic, just turn on hitboxes and attack around in the air. It’s definitely fun to notice its role in the game as you play.


Bonus: Here’s Puff’s Bair hitbox deformation. First pic shows neutral deformation, second shows Bair while fading hard away. Showing f10 of Bair

 

[Dr Peepee]

That is really cool! The pictures and explanations make it much more real to me. I will absolutely be experimenting, thanks for your post =)

 

[AirFair]

against puffs who are always jumping back a lot and doing sh bairs to where they are almost in place (not really drifting out much farther than a bit in front of them), do you think I should try and just take stage and then attempt to hold it with sh so i can fair her, or is it just better to keep using dashes to potentially dodge her while letting her retreat? I ask because I think when puffs play back that much it's not worth it for me to try and run all the way up to her to try and nair her.

also, what would you say are puff's weaknesses? When I look at the two characters, I know that marth has the ability to outrange puff in the air because he has better hitboxes that he can use, and his ground speed is much better as well, but I was wondering if there are character traits about puff that I should keep in mind when thinking about the matchup.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can't beat that Bair outright, but you can pressure what comes next. Holding space is fine, and threatening her afterward is fine. You can also take a bit of stage instead of approach. Not everything needs to be all or nothing.

Puff's weaknesses are her low ground mobility, her weak vertical mobility, being light, fairly low range for a high tier, and higher jumpsquat.

 

[HolidayMaker]

Because this is such a hub of Marth knowledge I'm gonna post this here even though it isn't really a question. It's a guide on throw kills vs Puff. I'm not trying to spread it everywhere to stroke my ego; I just genuinely hate to see Marths struggle to kill Puff and have known that struggle myself too many times.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1_U9D9rpXTNF_RyJHpWYwgQwcjSx5u3lOOEjE0ZEgyKc/edit?usp=sharing

 

[Zorcey]

What do you consider to be the purpose of Rising Fair in neutral against Falco? Particularly when neither character is cornered.

Same question, but for later Fairs.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Rising Fair is good if you're unsure what he will do but pretty sure he won't move back, and at a spacing where you aren't likely to get rushed down/have discouraged him yolo'ing you without reacting first. Beats aerials and lasers and pressures shield.

Late Fairs you moreso do only when you're closer and expect him to not approach and instead Utilt/Bair/shield.

 

[maclo4]

Yo it’s been a minute. Anyone have good resources for upthrow followups in the ditto? I really can’t find any good resources in the marth discord or the melee library. Or if you know off hand lmk. I can’t find anything reliable about the true follow ups besides kadano but that’s just up air stuff and doesn’t go into DI

 

[Kotastic]

PP I often find myself double dtilting Sheik from 0-23 because trying to get a grab is kinda pointless if I'm gonna continue going for unreactable tech chases. Do you think I could get more off dtilt if I hit one below 23%?