• All episodes of the new Smash Brothers documentary 'Metagame' are available on Vimeo! Get Metagame Here

  • Welcome to Smashboards, the world's largest Super Smash Brothers community! Over 250,000 Smash Bros. fans from around the world have come to discuss these great games in over 19 million posts!

    You are currently viewing our boards as a visitor. Click here to sign up right now and start on your path in the Smash community!

  • Support SmashBoards and get Premium Membership today!

Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
You can empty land grab yeah. If you empty land and are spaced then you could rising Fair or Dtilt or something to catch them if they act right away if you'd like. Once you have conditioned them to wait even then, you get a lot of control over their shield, since they have to wait if you swing or not, which puts enormous pressure on them.
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
364
What do you do once you have that pressure? It's percent/matchup dependent what the best punish you could get out of them shielding would be, so if you condition them to wait a long time in shield, should you use that to grab? But if they're not a character/at a percent that you can get much from grab, you probably want Fair or Dtilt, meaning you WANT them to move OoS, so what should you do with that situation where they hold shield because they respect big sword? (They can't hold shield forever, but it feels harder to stay primed for everything if they hold shield for a long time vs. act out of it right away, so it's not clear to me why them holding shield longer is a better situation.)
 
Last edited:

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Holding shield longer just makes them more paranoid because you can shield poke them and also makes them worried because they realize they can't keep holding shield, and can't challenge your oos as well. You can influence them with attacks that would come out as they confirm you did nothing for example to keep them locked down for longer if they waited. Just a lot of stuff like that. Typing out every shield pressure nuance is just not something I can do, but giving out these ideas gives you good places to start.
 

Kotastic

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
521
Location
California
NNID
Kotastic
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
How would you deal with Marth crouching aside from tipper dtilt? Not sure what other tools marth has to deal with since dair is negative with marth's crouch armor.
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Oh Dair's negative? That's wild.

Nair is good, and Fair is too if it knocks down or you are comfortable playing the next position. Ftilt knocking down or even Fsmash can work as well. Dtilt is my primary option and Nair is generally my secondary one though. Sometimes if it looks like they're just waiting I might run up and grab them, or fake doing that so they swing and exit crouch.
 

Taytertot

Smash Ace
Joined
Feb 7, 2014
Messages
658
Location
Seattle, WA
Small thought on edgeguarding Samus, you can dair her ups if you time the dair correctly. Hard to time but it’s there.

Hey PP, I was curious about you techniques for self training. I mainly play PM and because of this I have 41 viable mus that I could potentially run into. Unfortunately, due to my work schedule and my lack of a solid computer I have very little time to practice with anyone. Due to this I find it very difficult to learn mus and what to look for so I often find myself going 0-2 in brackets when I do get time to show up. What strategies do you use if you aren’t sure what to look for while shadow boxing? I don’t know what situations are good for my opponent sometimes so shadow boxing feels like it doesn’t have as much value but maybe you have some ideas.
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
I think you might benefit more from analysis first, so you can come up with ideas for counters to their common threats and practice those. Shadowboxing and guessing is far less effective than informed shadowboxing.
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
364
I’ve found I’m able to play pretty well consistently if I’m given sufficient time to warm up alone and get my brain and fingers running at my own pace, but this requires about an hour alone somewhere quiet (if I rush into playing somebody or get distracted I get stuck in playing thoughtlessly and badly). This isn’t realistic for tournament environment, especially when I need to STAY warmed up between sets, rather than a continuous friendlies session (something I still struggle with for a lack of energy due to tension). Do you think it’s possible to reduce the time needed to warm up?

Also I’ve been playing around with dash back shield pivot/shield in general in the ditto against drift in aerials and WD Dtilts. It can get me good OoS punishes and is relatively safe, but sometimes I get shieldpoked and it really compromises my mobility/makes me predictable coming out since I can really only WD or jump in or out (and both are slow). You’ve said before you don’t recommend shielding in neutral, so I guess I’m wondering if you would argue this doesn’t have enough advantages to use over options like pivot Fair/Nair (which I often see you use to beat them moving in after your dash back).
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
I would see if you can find exactly the amount of exercises in game that make you feel warm and isolate those to do. You may not need as much time as you think, or may also need a certain emotion/thought/comfort level you can achieve through other means.

Shield is okay as a mixup, but yeah overdoing it is what gets you punished. I tend to not want to take those risks in general though, but that may be more of a personal thing. Shielding is pretty much saying you hope they swing there, and I tend to want to cover more options. If you're more sure of what they'll do or haven't done it much so they may not counter effectively, it can be fine I would think.
 

flyboy__

Smash Cadet
Joined
Feb 21, 2019
Messages
46
Back at Apex 2015 (or that general period), what did you do different as Marth to make Armada switch off Peach when M2K consistently got bodied by him?
 

iCrash

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 12, 2017
Messages
62
When you review your own gameplay for mistakes, what do you look for / how do you break down a situation and find a mistake?
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Back at Apex 2015 (or that general period), what did you do different as Marth to make Armada switch off Peach when M2K consistently got bodied by him?
Better juggles, neutral that wasn't just waiting.

When you review your own gameplay for mistakes, what do you look for / how do you break down a situation and find a mistake?
I always say "look for a hit and find out why." You may not be able to find answers immediately, but if you make theories and test them over time, patterns will emerge.
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
364
What are Marth's strongest mixups when he Dthrows Falcon offstage? Does the way Marth should play the situation scale with Falcon's percent? Should you generally prime for different things if you react to DI in as opposed to out?

What should you do if you Fthrow Falcon offstage, after Dtilting his DI in at low percents? Do you have time to challenge DJ SS? What do you look for if he DIs out instead and avoids the Dtilt?
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Depends on percent DI and how close to the edge you are. If he DIs out it's great though it's harder for him to have so many DJ timings and you can react to DJ to edge if you practice it. Counter vs runoff Fair is good at mid percent but kind of a major 50/50 on who dies, and can lose to DJ airdodge sometimes. So for this reason I add in SH in place to cover airdodge and aerial on stage provided you are just outside the range of immediate DJ aerial.

Sometimes you can double Dtilt which is good. You can hit DJ sweetspot yeah. If he DIs out it's often better since he can't mixup going high then so it's like what I said regarding Dthrow.
 

AirFair

Marth tho
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
1,971
Location
Houston, Texas
I've been thinking about how to improve my decision making/adjustment in neutral, and it's gotten me thinking about how I choose to punish certain things.

For example, out of my longer forward dashes, I can dtilt, fair in place, dash wd/back, and stall the dash to observe before I do anything else. If I react to someone approaching me during this dash, I would either try and dash back to set up defense or I could rising fair in place. In this example lets say that I dash forward and I see a fox dash toward me. I could do a fair in place here or I could dash away and pivot grab/fair him. What would make me pick one over the other? I prefer to dash back usually since it helps me confirm approaches and defend accordingly, but since it can be taken advantage of, I don't want to rely on it. I know that rising fair in place is also good to do to keep marth's forward movement threatening, but beyond that I might not be understanding how it can be more beneficial.
 

Kotastic

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 21, 2015
Messages
521
Location
California
NNID
Kotastic
3DS FC
3368-4107-1072
Do you think Peach's approaching fair can be cleanly beat with pivot grab or fair? Or should I mostly be focusing on beating what peach does afterwards.
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
I've been thinking about how to improve my decision making/adjustment in neutral, and it's gotten me thinking about how I choose to punish certain things.

For example, out of my longer forward dashes, I can dtilt, fair in place, dash wd/back, and stall the dash to observe before I do anything else. If I react to someone approaching me during this dash, I would either try and dash back to set up defense or I could rising fair in place. In this example lets say that I dash forward and I see a fox dash toward me. I could do a fair in place here or I could dash away and pivot grab/fair him. What would make me pick one over the other? I prefer to dash back usually since it helps me confirm approaches and defend accordingly, but since it can be taken advantage of, I don't want to rely on it. I know that rising fair in place is also good to do to keep marth's forward movement threatening, but beyond that I might not be understanding how it can be more beneficial.
Fair in place is good if they wait or move back so you hold your ground. It also beats them more directly coming in, and means if they try to wait outside the range to beat it and you move back, you make their lives more difficult.

Do you think Peach's approaching fair can be cleanly beat with pivot grab or fair? Or should I mostly be focusing on beating what peach does afterwards.
Fair before it comes out, and mayyybe as it's out I don't really remember but it would be pretty precise if so. It looked like M2K vs Armada M2K would JC grab and Armada would be forced to spotdodge since he couldn't do anything else, and so mixing the perfectly timed and spaced grab with a wait/aerial might be best.
 

AirFair

Marth tho
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
1,971
Location
Houston, Texas
Fair in place is good if they wait or move back so you hold your ground. It also beats them more directly coming in, and means if they try to wait outside the range to beat it and you move back, you make their lives more difficult.
So then if I'm always fairing them for coming in to intercept me, and they are conditioned to respect that and avoid it instead, how does dashing back "make their lives more difficult"and how can I use it more effectively?
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
They cannot wait outside Fair range as a fake effectively, as you could move too far away to be counterhit. So they would either have to commit to covering one, or play the next position unless they practiced good counterplay that could work vs both dash back and Fair in place reasonably well. At that point you'd need to do things like WD back or intercept them instead.
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
364
I’ve been thinking about your post about pressuring an opponent by making them hold shield with the threat of a swing (without actually swinging) and it’s made me think about the importance of staggering shield pressure (delaying the swing) as well.

If you land a spaced Late Fair on an opponent’s shield and move right into a Dtilt as additional pressure, because the Fair is minus you’ll at LEAST lose to options like buffered roll and maybe WD back OoS; but if you wait after landing the Fair and stagger a Dtilt, you can still react to those other OoS options and pressure them, while not giving up the ability to continue your pressure if they hold shield instead. Also if you do land staggered pressure, their shield health will be very low because it just took a Fair and a Dtilt, and was running between those hits, which will heavily condition them to act quickly if not immediately after that second hit on their shield.

I think times when you wouldn’t want to stagger would be most obviously when you’re not spaced/safe from aggressive OoS options, but also when you’re more or less certain the opponent is conditioned to act immediately OoS after a swing at it, or may act at a slightly delayed timing such that your Dtilt (in this example) would leave you in too much lag to pressure their OoS option, and potentially other reasons that haven’t occurred to me yet.

This is just more of me trying to learn to control an opponent in shield/something I was thinking a lot about yesterday and was wondering if you thought I was on the right track and/or had anything to add that you thought I was missing.
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
I think you're very much more on the right track now. However, I will continue to stress that Marth is strongest when he is spaced so they couldn't do anything no matter when they act. This particular application has caused Kotastic some frustration, but it works for me and I think the idea is worth experimenting with.
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
364
I remember you talking about this in your Marth tutorial. So would the idea be to ONLY react to their OoS option when you're spaced instead of trying to predict any particular option or timing? If so, when should you try to hit their shield again for additional pressure or try to read them coming OoS for a stronger punish, if at all for either? Assuming the position is you're spaced with a late Fair on their shield.
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
You can apply the idea however you want, proactive or reactive I suppose. M2K and I don't play the same way on shield but can get similar results because we use a similar rule for example.

You can hit their shield rapidly, but I find mixing waiting past their recognition time then swinging to be a good mixup at least. I cannot give a comprehensive guide, it is too complicated.
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
364
This makes sense. I'm still very much learning the position, so I'll just have to explore more and find what works for me. Would you be able to describe what you and M2K do differently so I know what to look for, or is there too much to fit?

For clarification, does "waiting past their recognition time" mean waiting until they've been able to register that you've hit their shield once until you swing again, or register that you DIDN'T hit their shield right away again (in other words you swing just as they recognize that you waited - because this is exactly what I meant by "staggering pressure" in my first post)?
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
I was referring to them registering you did not hit their shield right away. Then they could choose to wait or move, and if they wait then the position is similar but subtly different, etc.

M2K tends to run through good routines and timings and move in rather predefined ways, so his options can often be adopted for a good starting point(unless you see them not working).
 

Zorcey

Smash Journeyman
Joined
May 12, 2015
Messages
364
Could you explain some of the basic Puff weaving patterns and how Marth should DD to threaten/beat them? I don’t really get how all of that works.

Should you DD against grounded Puff, or only when she’s airborne? (She’s not very mobile on the ground, so I figure it’s pretty easy to set up good spacing, in which case I’m not sure why you’d need to adjust it).

At what rough recovery height do you think Marth should start positioning on the side platform against Puff coming back rather than at the ledge? I would think it depends on stage a lot, but BF and PS are most uncertain to me.

https://youtu.be/tHwoB3ujnps?t=633 what makes you opt for WD Dtilt when Hungrybox is crouching here instead of approaching Nair like you had been using in similar positions earlier in the stock?

https://youtu.be/lORRA7Lvaqw?t=72 What would you consider to be the pros and cons of Zain going right into Dtilt after his Fair on shield here?

https://youtu.be/lORRA7Lvaqw?t=103 What should Marth do OoS when Puff spaces a Bair and fades back on it? Do you think WDing in OoS is ever good if there’s the risk the Puff will put out a second Bair (because it’s high reward for her)?

What if Marth dashes back, and confirms that Puff whiffs the Bair (she places it at his old position) and full fades back - how should he respond in this situation? Does it change much if she did Fair instead?
 
Last edited:

maxono1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 12, 2018
Messages
67
Location
Germany
pp what should the overall goal be for having a fox in shield? because unlike falcon u cant react to all his options oos and be safe so i dont know if i should prioritize reading it and discouraging him from shielding altogether with grab or if i should prioritize beating him coming oos even though i cant react to everything. on stream you said that i should move back or grab if i see him wd oos toward me which is fine if he only does forward and backward but i think its problematic if he can bait me with wd down. this is i think where predicting his timing with dtilt comes in.
i feel like going for the grab read is so much simpler than dealing with all the oos stuff but i guess its riskier. idk really

Zorcey Zorcey
If you land a spaced Late Fair on an opponent’s shield and move right into a Dtilt as additional pressure, because the Fair is minus you’ll at LEAST lose to options like buffered roll and maybe WD back OoS; but if you wait after landing the Fair and stagger a Dtilt, you can still react to those other OoS options and pressure them, while not giving up the ability to continue your pressure if they hold shield instead.
you have to keep in mind that he can hold shield until you confirm it (what pp calls your recognition time) and then move oos to escape or even read you doing dtilt then with the appropriate option, just like u can stagger your pressure.
 

Dr Peepee

Ancient Light
Moderator
BRoomer
Joined
Sep 29, 2007
Messages
27,619
Location
Raleigh, North Carolina
Could you explain some of the basic Puff weaving patterns and how Marth should DD to threaten/beat them? I don’t really get how all of that works.

Should you DD against grounded Puff, or only when she’s airborne? (She’s not very mobile on the ground, so I figure it’s pretty easy to set up good spacing, in which case I’m not sure why you’d need to adjust it).

At what rough recovery height do you think Marth should start positioning on the side platform against Puff coming back rather than at the ledge? I would think it depends on stage a lot, but BF and PS are most uncertain to me.

https://youtu.be/tHwoB3ujnps?t=633 what makes you opt for WD Dtilt when Hungrybox is crouching here instead of approaching Nair like you had been using in similar positions earlier in the stock?

https://youtu.be/lORRA7Lvaqw?t=72 What would you consider to be the pros and cons of Zain going right into Dtilt after his Fair on shield here?

https://youtu.be/lORRA7Lvaqw?t=103 What should Marth do OoS when Puff spaces a Bair and fades back on it? Do you think WDing in OoS is ever good if there’s the risk the Puff will put out a second Bair (because it’s high reward for her)?

What if Marth dashes back, and confirms that Puff whiffs the Bair (she places it at his old position) and full fades back - how should he respond in this situation? Does it change much if she did Fair instead?
DD against grounded Puff is fine since she's likely to jump and it can be good to be leaning away if she aerials into you. But it does depend since that can make it harder to pressure her grounded so well.

Get on side platform if you can't FH hit her from the ground I guess.

Looks like the Dtilt hits him moving away that would avoid Nair.

Pro: catches jump or other immediate action. Con: he's close so damage is weak and it could be crouch punished as a result, plus he's not so safe on hit now.

You could WD in, but Puff can just Bair or jump again so I think at best it's a mixup.

There are different things he can do. Take stage, Dtilt, Nair in, fake, wait, set up for Fsmash, etc. Fair you can't AC so it's absolutely different.

pp what should the overall goal be for having a fox in shield? because unlike falcon u cant react to all his options oos and be safe so i dont know if i should prioritize reading it and discouraging him from shielding altogether with grab or if i should prioritize beating him coming oos even though i cant react to everything. on stream you said that i should move back or grab if i see him wd oos toward me which is fine if he only does forward and backward but i think its problematic if he can bait me with wd down. this is i think where predicting his timing with dtilt comes in.
i feel like going for the grab read is so much simpler than dealing with all the oos stuff but i guess its riskier. idk really
Grab is very risky. Space with Fair to catch jumps OOS as well. I don't know how to explain everything, just don't do the same thing every time. If you have more specifics you want to beat you'll need to let me know, but listing every option I can only explain how to beat those individually and some together. Showing Fair discourages jumping or acting at the timing of jumps.
 

AirFair

Marth tho
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
1,971
Location
Houston, Texas
When puffs are drifting in with their fh/sh as I dash away and then drifting back to land right outside of my pivot fair, I feel like it puts me in a weird spot. I think that nair is usually good to use here to hit them coming up again, but I usually like to fake it after it works to see if they will wait or lunge with something like fsmash/DA. Is the solution to keeping them from landing so close to me doing earlier pivot fairs? Or do I need to play the mixup once she's landed? I've been looking at myself vs puff and I think that in general I often fair much later then I should, usually since I'm waiting for a landing instead of trying to hit her while she's still in the air, since I'm afraid of a bad trade.
 

Applebutter61

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
363
Location
The edge of Nowhere
Hi. My question is, can you tell me everything there is to know about combo'ing with Marth's up air? That may be broad, so, to specify, I'm asking about how the different hitboxes of the up air act, and how to use them effectively.
I also want to say that I think you are great guy for answering all of our question, and thank you very much.
 
Last edited:

maxono1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 12, 2018
Messages
67
Location
Germany
what i want to know is what would the ideal outcome would be if i know fox would likely be shielding in x situation.

without a grab i dont get how i am supposed to get anything significant off of that situation.
a rising fair to read a jump imo is just as risky as grab because it can be punished on reaction with wd oos forward into jab, uptilt or upsmash if i dont drift back out of his wd range which is pretty far, in this case he can pressure my landing and i lose a lot of stage.
a dtilt if it hits gets me a mixup of "do i grab"(which if i guess wrong is the same risk as just guessing wrong on him shielding and i get grabbed or combod otherwise) at most and a little bit of dmg and if it gets read and he wds into me with asdi down he can cc punish me for it until ridiculous percents.
also just sitting out of his shield range like it is possible with falcon is also pretty dumb because i have to dash back to not get hit by his wd attacks when he wd oos forward. which means he can wd down or do a shallow wd to get me to retreat.
grabbing his wd here would also be a mixup because i can only react to his jumpsquat and not that hes wd toward me
this doesnt make sense, i have to retreat when i see him wd oos?? this means he can just shield over and over and gain stage until the end of time?
this is my problem here, without taking risks with grab i feel like fox shielding is just unstoppable.
 

Applebutter61

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
363
Location
The edge of Nowhere
what i want to know is what would the ideal outcome would be if i know fox would likely be shielding in x situation.

without a grab i dont get how i am supposed to get anything significant off of that situation.
a rising fair to read a jump imo is just as risky as grab because it can be punished on reaction with wd oos forward into jab, uptilt or upsmash if i dont drift back out of his wd range which is pretty far, in this case he can pressure my landing and i lose a lot of stage.
a dtilt if it hits gets me a mixup of "do i grab"(which if i guess wrong is the same risk as just guessing wrong on him shielding and i get grabbed or combod otherwise) at most and a little bit of dmg and if it gets read and he wds into me with asdi down he can cc punish me for it until ridiculous percents.
also just sitting out of his shield range like it is possible with falcon is also pretty dumb because i have to dash back to not get hit by his wd attacks when he wd oos forward. which means he can wd down or do a shallow wd to get me to retreat.
grabbing his wd here would also be a mixup because i can only react to his jumpsquat and not that hes wd toward me
this doesnt make sense, i have to retreat when i see him wd oos?? this means he can just shield over and over and gain stage until the end of time?
this is my problem here, without taking risks with grab i feel like fox shielding is just unstoppable.
So... I know this thread is for PP, but maybe I can help here. The second half of this was a little hard to follow, but here is the impression I get of this post: If fox shields, and I do anything, there is counterplay to what I do. Therefore, I cannot do it lest, the fox use that counterplay. The problem with this line of thought is that there is counterplay to nearly everything.
This video also addresses this topic; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrxrn4Pp5qM (Yes, this is smash 4, but it is applicable to Melee)
I believe this is a case of overthinking, which is something that I myself struggle with in school, at work, and in Melee.

Your original question is actually quite reasonable. The question is essentially a form of "What do I do in X situation?" Whenever I have this question, I simply go watch some Melee and see what happens in those situations. However, just because X thing worked in X situation doesn't mean that it will always work. To understand when it will work, you must understand why it worked. This goes into analysis, which I have another video I would recommend on the subject. Hopefully you enjoy videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mw4C0K_LVs

I hope this was helpful, and if I incorrectly diagnosed the problem, please let me know, so that I can see what I did wrong in this situation. (See what I did there) Thanks if you took the time to read all of this.
 
Last edited:

AirFair

Marth tho
Joined
Jul 1, 2014
Messages
1,971
Location
Houston, Texas
yo I thought of another question today so I'm gonna post that now instead of waiting lol

how do I keep myself prepared for many different matchups? I have notes on my computer to kind of refresh myself on the important points of neutral/punish, but beyond that, I feel like I'm not sure how to balance practicing for multiple matchups effectively while solo practicing (like practicing punishes/shadowboxing neutral situations)

currently I just work on whatever I feel I'm the weakest in, and spend as much time as I need to work those things out, but I feel like I end up losing a bit of that refinement when I switch over to focusing hard on another matchup. I want to do things efficiently, so I can really bring out my best in tournament instead of feeling off my footing for the first bit of some sets.
 

maxono1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 12, 2018
Messages
67
Location
Germany
So... I know this thread is for PP, but maybe I can help here. The second half of this was a little hard to follow, but here is the impression I get of this post: If fox shields, and I do anything, there is counterplay to what I do. Therefore, I cannot do it lest, the fox use that counterplay. The problem with this line of thought is that there is counterplay to nearly everything.
This video also addresses this topic; https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrxrn4Pp5qM (Yes, this is smash 4, but it is applicable to Melee)
I believe this is a case of overthinking, which is something that I myself struggle with in school, at work, and in Melee.

Your original question is actually quite reasonable. The question is essentially a form of "What do I do in X situation?" Whenever I have this question, I simply go watch some Melee and see what happens in those situations. However, just because X thing worked in X situation doesn't mean that it will always work. To understand when it will work, you must understand why it worked. This goes into analysis, which I have another video I would recommend on the subject. Hopefully you enjoy videos. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_mw4C0K_LVs

I hope this was helpful, and if I incorrectly diagnosed the problem, please let me know, so that I can see what I did wrong in this situation. (See what I did there) Thanks if you took the time to read all of this.
thanks for answering i dont mind at all if someone else replies.
while i struggle from overthinking or anxiety before tournaments sometimes i dont think its the case here, it was more like i was just rambling and didnt structure my thoughts in that post so its hard to understand.

my problem isnt that i dont know what to do or what i would do in that situation, im having trouble understanding how pp sees that situation and how he would counter fox shielding effectively without taking occasional risks with grabbing.
this extends to me saying certain options are "bad" to use in that situation because im thinking from the perspective that i should avoid taking risks on foxs shield as pp says.
youre definitely right though that rather than relying on pp to answer it and explain it to me i should do my own research on the situation and analyse the sets.
i actually love watching videos and have watched both of them in the past but i rewatched the 2nd one because the last time was like a year ago.
this was definitely helpful because you made me realize that i cant just expect people to understand me if i puke my thoughts on the page and that i should try to make my posts more digestible.
you also reminded me of the video from ssbmtutorials that gives helpful tips to make good analysis that i havent been using.
my one criticism would be that you kind of made me feel like a noob or an idiot or something but i think that is fine because i was kinda behaving like one lol. this is very hard to overcome though, the line between trying to help and being condecending is very blurry and depends a lot on the recipient. i would recommend asking first if you can help out, this has helped me a lot in my experience and i actually should do it more often rather than jumping in.

if you want i can explain to you what i know about upair, the hitboxes etc. im pretty good with the technical stuff
 

Applebutter61

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
363
Location
The edge of Nowhere
First of all, I would like to apologize for making you feel like a noob or an idiot, and I say this especially considering that I am not by any means even a decent player. I am still stuck in the low levels, and I fail to be able to consistently win against people that even seem to be at or below my own (low) skill level. Condescension or ridicule, intentional or not, is not okay and I'm sincerely sorry for acting like that.
Also, I would like to thank you for pointing that out, so that I can try to not do that to anyone else in the future.

I would say that there is nothing wrong with asking PP. He's clearly glad to help, and which is why we all love him. <3
As a matter of fact, I myself am now interested in what PP has to say on the topic.

As to your offer to explain the up air and, as you put it, the technical stuff, I would like that. I appreciate it, thank you.
 

maxono1

Smash Cadet
Joined
Oct 12, 2018
Messages
67
Location
Germany
lol its fine i wasnt really offended, also with noob i didnt mean skill but attitude towards the game. i guess i should have used scrub which is more accurate.

upair has 3 different hitboxes with different strengths, the tip, the hilt and the arm/body(sourspot)
the position of the hitboxes and frame data can be found here: https://smashboards.com/threads/complete-marth-hitboxes-and-frame-data.285324/
and you can look up the damage numbers on https://ikneedata.com/calculator

so for comboing and punishing with upair:

on fastfallers you can combo into tipper upair from an upthrow starting mid% to high% it can set up for regrabs, fsmashes and aerials

the percents are pretty specific so i will just link the tables here:
CF:https://smashboards.com/threads/kad...data-application.337035/page-17#post-16635855
Fox:http://marthnerd.blogspot.com/2017/03/marths-uthrow-combos-on-fox-and-falco.html
Falco:http://marthnerd.blogspot.com/2017/03/marth-uthrow-combo-table-and-flowchart.html
i have to say you dont really need to memorize these tables at all because its a lot of repeating information and you can intuit a lot of it when looking at the height of the other character and when you can move.

if you get a landing tipper upair raw you can get good followups(aerials, upb) until very high percents like 120(fox)-150(CF)%

the hilt and arm are pretty useless at lower percents but at ~80% onward they become really good if you get them off of upthrow because they can confirm into tipper or ken combo when tipper upair cant anymore.

they are also useful as a substitute for fair if you are onstage and you suspect they DI out when your fsmash doesnt really kill them and dair doesnt send them offstage. the uair then sets up for an offstage dair.

if you land a sourspot upair raw you can confirm into killmoves until the end of time(like 200% or something)


on midweights and floaties its less complicated:
you can upthrow tipper upair Pikachu, Sheik and Marth at low to mid%

you can backthrow tipper upair Puff and Pikachu (sometimes Sheik and Marth as a jump read) at and above~120%
this can be mixed up with fthrow tipper upair

getting a raw tipper upair leads into tilts, smashes, grabs or more aerials like on fastfallers but the percents are lower and it also stops comboing earlier (like ~70% for jiggs and ~90% for marth)

you cant really set up non tipper up air but if you get it it will also combo into killmoves up until ungodly percents

one more tip about juggling with upair is that you want to be falling with them when you do the move rather than jumping at them.

is this what you need?
i hope its not too overwhelming but this is what i know about upair and how to use it
tell me if you dont understand something or other critique points

edit: also im sorry pp for spamming the thread tell me if its too much
 
Last edited:

Applebutter61

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Nov 28, 2017
Messages
363
Location
The edge of Nowhere
This was exactly what I wanted. An extensive explanation of how up air comboes. This was not at all too overwhelming, actually, it was quite pleasing, especially considering you went to all the trouble to make it. Thank you! :D
 

rousd

Smash Rookie
Joined
Mar 5, 2015
Messages
20
Location
Melbourne, Australia
Been a while since I asked for help here but anyway:

I played a marth ditto in tournament the other day and I noticed that I seem to have more trouble with smaller stages like yoshi's and FoD since I have less room to dash back. With that in mind do you think it would be more beneficial to adapt a playstyle similar to mango's marth where he controls space with aerials and less so with movement on these smaller stages?

And I guess a follow up would be how to practice against characters who seem to have a less flowchart punish game compared to like marth or shiek?? I don't really have any practice partners who play these characters so I was thinking shadowboxing with a cpu, staying outside of their move's ranges and working on shield stops and movement in general. And watching a whole bunch of vods. Anything else I should do?
 

Kaoak

Smash Cadet
Joined
Aug 2, 2014
Messages
60
Do you generally react to spot dodge against Spacies/Sheik when pressuring shield / tech chasing, or do you read it? From your experience do you think it is feasible to react consistently to spot dodge? It can be hard to tell whether a player I'm watching has reacted to or read the spot dodge but I find spot dodge is really effective as a defensive/panic tool against my Marth, while much less effective against top Marths, as when I try to react I usually get shined, double spot dodged or spot dodge rolled, but Marths such as Zain seem to flawlessly react or read the spot dodge almost every time.

GENERAL INFORMATION if this helps anyone reading this: JC grab takes at minimum 8 frames + at least 1 frame to dash forwards so usually 9 frames bare minimum. Fox is actionable and can shine as soon as frame 24 after beginning a spot dodge given the spot dodge is buffered and the Fox shields for 1 frame, Fox can double spot dodge as soon as frame 26 given 1 frame of shield for a buffered spot dodge. The sound queue for Fox's spot dodge also comes out on frame 2, subtracting 1 frame from your reaction time. This gives you generally between 13-15 frames to react given a frame perfect DD grab. For comparison, reacting to tech in place gives 17-19 frames but lacks an audio queue (actionable frame 27, frame 29 for spot dodge). Your reaction time will also be reduced by input lag, which is typically between 3 and 5 frames.
 
Last edited:
Top Bottom