Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[AirFair]

What can I do to get down more safely when fox is juggling me?
https://youtu.be/pf_1UOLRDjI?t=277
-I think I blew my dj early in this clip, and he gets under me and is able to utilt me guaranteed

Also a question about the spacies cg
how do you feel about utilt? Most marths use it from 30%-40% off uthrow, but lately I've started to feel like it was unreliable and wouldn't lead to very effective followups when your opponent DI+SDI's properly to escape the combo. One example is when they DI the utilt behind marth and DI+SDI down and in, which escapes all followups from 29%-32% I think, and the only thing you can followup from then on is another utilt/DA. Another case is when marth uses turnaround utilt to hit no/slight DI with the back hit, they can DI out away from marth and he can't get a guaranteed followup anymore.

What I usually do instead is just regrab and pivot regrab until the 40's where I can rising uair no/slight DI and regrab away DIs. After that, once I get to the 50's I can start comboing with uair off uthrow.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, when corner pressuring Falcon, how do you cover their jumps? Especially when they escape to side/top platform? Is it a read or reaction? What about the mixup between Falcon doing an immediate aerial OoS before I hit his shield, or after fairing their shield Falcon aerials OoS?

If it's a read, then how can I punish Falcon's jump and also be relatively low risk if I'm wrong in case Falcon rolls or something? I feel like I don't understand Falcon's corner options well and am a bit jealous of spacies ease of shield pressuring Falcon.

Regarding Fox's FH + DJ bait, do I have to accept the risk of FH drill and wait out the DJ, or is there a safer scout Marth can do to maneuver FH drill as well?

I like rising Fair vs cornered Falcon, but now Falcon's hold down so it's not as good. Run up Nair can eat SH and shield and hold down at least. Staying close enough to react to them go up but far enough away to not get run up grabbed or aerialed is the spacing that helps you achieve this.
You should be able to stay outside of aerial oos range and hit his shield. If he aerials after you hit his shield I think you can normally double Fair if you did a rising one, but I guess the details depend on what aerial you did and when.

You can run up SH in place and land and turnaround grab or Dair grab at lower percent if he rolls I suppose. I never had an issue with Falcon's roll so maybe it's just a matter of finding the timing and getting your setup going.

Marth can stand just out of drill range to be ready for both, or he can SH to cover drill, land and then pursue the DJ or Fair the drill if it happens. You can also dash back at the last moment in case of drill and then move back in to either grab landing lag or challenge DJ.

What can I do to get down more safely when fox is juggling me?
https://youtu.be/pf_1UOLRDjI?t=277
-I think I blew my dj early in this clip, and he gets under me and is able to utilt me guaranteed

Also a question about the spacies cg
how do you feel about utilt? Most marths use it from 30%-40% off uthrow, but lately I've started to feel like it was unreliable and wouldn't lead to very effective followups when your opponent DI+SDI's properly to escape the combo. One example is when they DI the utilt behind marth and DI+SDI down and in, which escapes all followups from 29%-32% I think, and the only thing you can followup from then on is another utilt/DA. Another case is when marth uses turnaround utilt to hit no/slight DI with the back hit, they can DI out away from marth and he can't get a guaranteed followup anymore.

What I usually do instead is just regrab and pivot regrab until the 40's where I can rising uair no/slight DI and regrab away DIs. After that, once I get to the 50's I can start comboing with uair off uthrow.

Yeah you jumped while he was in lag, and jumped away from the platforms where you had less escapes. Dair would also have helped more than Fair given his relation to you.

Yeah you should ideally be regrabbing whenever possible. So if they DI full away that's a regrab. Sometimes slight ones too. The back hit of Utilt is more reliable like you said but it's still an issue sometimes. Regrabbing until those percents and doing that is what I do as well. The CG is full of nonsense like this.

 

[Kopaka]

So now for breaks. I think a break is usually a way to avoid the pain associated with the game, and not a way to solve the problem. I think breaks can be helpful, but overall I have yet to see them fix issues, but occasionally allow people to sort out something taking their attention from the game. Usually it doesn't do any good, and just pushes people farther from the game though.

So glad this was said. I've found it redundantly obvious that improvement comes from actually practicing the game, which leads into this, and my questions.

I've been thinking about how one of the if not the best way to guarantee safety in a match is competency, skill, "goodness", or whatever you want to call it. I've played a lot of players who've come across me as players who learn a technique, lets say retreating lasers with falco or running away lasers, Or wavedash fsmash with marth after some crazy movements. They learn some strategies and some tech skill and call it a day. I dont want to sound bitter about this, because that's another point I'm going to make on a more positive way to look at playing. Looking back on the last month of me practicing and playing, I think I've been trying to impose my views of how it is one should play the game. Even if I'm not playing with merely gimmicks or doing the same four things over in neutral and punish, then whatever it is I'm doing becomes dogma if I try get angry at them for not doing things the way I think they should be done. Very recently, actually yesterday, I've realized that this sort of mindset applies to some other parts of my life as well. I don't want to say be a passive pushover, but learning to let people move where they want to move and going with it instead of getting fed up with them and trying to impose my views on them, has helped a lot.

I have some questions. I don't want to approach this problem with a break from the game, since it's also a problem outside of the game. How can I directly approach having a self-destructive ego? How can I turn it into discipline to improve myself/practice the game to level out the currently disproportionate ratio of my skill to what my ego expects of me? and how can I do that without staying satisfied for too long? In the last few days I've done just that. Swallowed my pride and practiced. It's helped. I feel things are less left to chance because of the increase in skill. Do I have to practice to the point where I'm so competent, that the chances of my ego oppressing me with higher levels of expectations becomes near impossible? (The highest healthiest expectations that don't succeed into absurd tas levels of skill) Should I define just how good my ego wants me to be, and aim at that? If (assuming this is all concretely able to measure lol) I also want to learn how to practice for the point of building, not destroying and putting people down, including myself, but I think it's impossible to throw away this ego thing, which I think is fine. I want to learn how to take it and make it work for me. I also want to somehow learn to see that if I cannot control my ego and it gets the best of me, to not see myself as a failure for letting it happen. Which I often times feel, especially because I take it all out on myself.

--writing here so i dont double post. there's probably a question in here--

I think developing a strong neutral game with a strong dash dance is probably the best thing you could practice with marth, and probably also fox and probably falcon. maybe you should do it so much its like you're abusing it or 'dash dance camping' (but I dont call it camping if it's done well) with marth dash dancing in neutral is low input but high opponent based depth/understanding. when you responded with your analysis on a dash dance you had vs leffen at apex 2015, you weren't saying "i was in x position which beats y then I Was in Z position which beats W". (I think the X beats Y sort of thing applies probably moreso to matchups like climbers/marios/samus? like fair/dtilt is going to just destroy them). If I practice doing it, I don't feel uncomfortable and try to circumvent discomfort with ridiculous speed or chances with hitboxes either short or long lasting. It's great because you're keeping your position vague if you're adjusting the length of each dash. It's great because there's this human level layer going on in those moments that I'm slowly becoming addicted to. Maybe there is a question in here. the drawback of dash dancing being low input is that its high in attention. I have to be so cognizant of if they're going to move forward or back. If they're going to commit fully to running in all the way at me even with a dtilt attached to the end of it, i have little time (but not inhuman time) and space depending on the stage to recognize what's happening and intercept them before they get to me. If they're going to stand still close to me I have to grab or hit them very soon too. It's like, low input, high awareness. Reminds me of when you said something like "if they hit you in your dash you weren't paying attention" or something. And then it's like now I Feel like I'm being held back by some amount of in-game analysis. If I keep dash dancing in front of them standing still, I'll be worried they'll try to do some fsmash thing. If I'm not so tethered to that thought, I'll be way more inclined to run in and grab them way sooner. I also dont want to lean solely on trying to react to everything they throw out with a whiff punish since that stuff has its counters too. I don't know what the answer to this weird catch-22 is with dash dancing. high awareness is required but I don't want to be bogged down by overthinking.

 

[Kotastic]

Had some good sessions with Fiction some time ago. Very important concept he says here! https://clips.twitch.tv/HealthyAmazingClamStrawBeary

 

[Kopaka]

Had some good sessions with Fiction some time ago. Very important concept he says here! https://clips.twitch.tv/HealthyAmazingClamStrawBeary

good this was shared.

this short lil thing reminds me of this other short thing wobbles said awhile back that was basically saying what fiction says here. everything has a consequence. there's a fight going on. my interpretation of what fiction says about marth letting people get away with a lot is the allure of quick moves like dtilt. even that stuff can be punished. i find it too easy to just pick decent moves like that in close quarters because its so fast and tempting because of the speed. or not even just the speed but the speed + them dash dancing like he was. then if they're good I'd get killed for it. the chess thing makes me think that like, while melee has some "x beats y", there's more to it than that.

 

[AirFair]

So he's saying that people will tunnel vision on moves without trying to observe the way their opponent handles their threats in different positions? That's what I get from that. Good stuff, thanks for sharing.

 

[Dr Peepee]

So glad this was said. I've found it redundantly obvious that improvement comes from actually practicing the game, which leads into this, and my questions.

I've been thinking about how one of the if not the best way to guarantee safety in a match is competency, skill, "goodness", or whatever you want to call it. I've played a lot of players who've come across me as players who learn a technique, lets say retreating lasers with falco or running away lasers, Or wavedash fsmash with marth after some crazy movements. They learn some strategies and some tech skill and call it a day. I dont want to sound bitter about this, because that's another point I'm going to make on a more positive way to look at playing. Looking back on the last month of me practicing and playing, I think I've been trying to impose my views of how it is one should play the game. Even if I'm not playing with merely gimmicks or doing the same four things over in neutral and punish, then whatever it is I'm doing becomes dogma if I try get angry at them for not doing things the way I think they should be done. Very recently, actually yesterday, I've realized that this sort of mindset applies to some other parts of my life as well. I don't want to say be a passive pushover, but learning to let people move where they want to move and going with it instead of getting fed up with them and trying to impose my views on them, has helped a lot.

I have some questions. I don't want to approach this problem with a break from the game, since it's also a problem outside of the game. How can I directly approach having a self-destructive ego? How can I turn it into discipline to improve myself/practice the game to level out the currently disproportionate ratio of my skill to what my ego expects of me? and how can I do that without staying satisfied for too long? In the last few days I've done just that. Swallowed my pride and practiced. It's helped. I feel things are less left to chance because of the increase in skill. Do I have to practice to the point where I'm so competent, that the chances of my ego oppressing me with higher levels of expectations becomes near impossible? (The highest healthiest expectations that don't succeed into absurd tas levels of skill) Should I define just how good my ego wants me to be, and aim at that? If (assuming this is all concretely able to measure lol) I also want to learn how to practice for the point of building, not destroying and putting people down, including myself, but I think it's impossible to throw away this ego thing, which I think is fine. I want to learn how to take it and make it work for me. I also want to somehow learn to see that if I cannot control my ego and it gets the best of me, to not see myself as a failure for letting it happen. Which I often times feel, especially because I take it all out on myself.

--writing here so i dont double post. there's probably a question in here--

I think developing a strong neutral game with a strong dash dance is probably the best thing you could practice with marth, and probably also fox and probably falcon. maybe you should do it so much its like you're abusing it or 'dash dance camping' (but I dont call it camping if it's done well) with marth dash dancing in neutral is low input but high opponent based depth/understanding. when you responded with your analysis on a dash dance you had vs leffen at apex 2015, you weren't saying "i was in x position which beats y then I Was in Z position which beats W". (I think the X beats Y sort of thing applies probably moreso to matchups like climbers/marios/samus? like fair/dtilt is going to just destroy them). If I practice doing it, I don't feel uncomfortable and try to circumvent discomfort with ridiculous speed or chances with hitboxes either short or long lasting. It's great because you're keeping your position vague if you're adjusting the length of each dash. It's great because there's this human level layer going on in those moments that I'm slowly becoming addicted to. Maybe there is a question in here. the drawback of dash dancing being low input is that its high in attention. I have to be so cognizant of if they're going to move forward or back. If they're going to commit fully to running in all the way at me even with a dtilt attached to the end of it, i have little time (but not inhuman time) and space depending on the stage to recognize what's happening and intercept them before they get to me. If they're going to stand still close to me I have to grab or hit them very soon too. It's like, low input, high awareness. Reminds me of when you said something like "if they hit you in your dash you weren't paying attention" or something. And then it's like now I Feel like I'm being held back by some amount of in-game analysis. If I keep dash dancing in front of them standing still, I'll be worried they'll try to do some fsmash thing. If I'm not so tethered to that thought, I'll be way more inclined to run in and grab them way sooner. I also dont want to lean solely on trying to react to everything they throw out with a whiff punish since that stuff has its counters too. I don't know what the answer to this weird catch-22 is with dash dancing. high awareness is required but I don't want to be bogged down by overthinking.

A bit hard to fully know what your first question is, but I'll do my best with it.
On one hand, you see that you putting in work and increasing skill decreases pain from expectation due to increased confidence. So naturally you want to continue this. The question is how. You want to do this without hurting yourself as well, which of course is very fair. I think setting an overarching goal, whatever it is, is fine. Top 5, top 20, top 50, whatever. Then shrink that down into smaller and smaller goals and develop a time table for those. You can get all the way down into what you need to be doing today, tomorrow, this week. Getting your practice in and your habits set up and a new technique may be fine for this week for example, and today you just need to start. You may also want to think about what getting to these goals means to you emotionally, what does it fulfill for you? I also think viewing training as a way in which you overcome yourself is very powerful. Not sure what else you want exactly, so I'll wait for you to react to this.

The positional-based understanding of DD is something I often don't think about as much, especially when positions shift so much against Fox for example. I prefer to think of the interactive element, but both are inherently present and equally important. Overthinking is a part of any early learning process. When learning a dance, you overthink each step of the dance in itself, and what comes next. Eventually you know each chunk. Eventually it's automatic, beyond conscious thought. So you have to go in those stages as well. Fsmash can hit you, but it's also their risk, think from the opponent's perspective as much as possible.

 

[maxono1]

Dr Peepee i have a comprehensive question.
i've been thinking about the basic rule in the falcon matchup which was told to me is "extreme less is more" or swing as little as possible in the neutral which means not using preemptive attacks for example a late fair at a timing he could come in because when im wrong i get opened up hard. is that correct?
then i was thinking about how you can do reactive attacks like confirming falcon jump at you from far away and then fairing to beat their aerial and preemptive attacks and how you said that you think about each dash or wavedash as either a zoning tool or a poke itself or something like that.
then something in my brain made the connection that i only use movement to reactively whiff punish or to set up my own moves.
is the key to a good dash dance/ good movement that you also use it preemptively like you would a move? for example if i think my opponent is going to do x option i use y movement sequence instead of thinking i have to use z preemptive move.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yes the idea is to also use it to move in and to threaten. If you only counterattack with it, then they don't fear any dashes in and expect you to always go backward or occasionally go all the way in with a big swing. Marths get too reliant on dash back to punish, but they give up his amazing control game in order to optimize this one thing.

 

[Birdsnest]

I've been thinking about the following situation a lot recently: you are in centre stage and you know falco will do two approaching lasers, after the two lasers he will land about half to one dash length away. What is the best option I could choose in this situation? I don't feel like I can get a punish in this situation. Ive been crouching and trying to powershield the second laser and then covering whatever I think they'll do next or dtilting their landing if they tend to land closer with mid or high lasers. This situation happens a lot and I feel like I could do so much more with it.

 

[Kopaka]

A bit hard to fully know what your first question is, but I'll do my best with it.
On one hand, you see that you putting in work and increasing skill decreases pain from expectation due to increased confidence. So naturally you want to continue this. The question is how. You want to do this without hurting yourself as well, which of course is very fair. I think setting an overarching goal, whatever it is, is fine. Top 5, top 20, top 50, whatever. Then shrink that down into smaller and smaller goals and develop a time table for those. You can get all the way down into what you need to be doing today, tomorrow, this week. Getting your practice in and your habits set up and a new technique may be fine for this week for example, and today you just need to start. You may also want to think about what getting to these goals means to you emotionally, what does it fulfill for you? I also think viewing training as a way in which you overcome yourself is very powerful. Not sure what else you want exactly, so I'll wait for you to react to this.

The positional-based understanding of DD is something I often don't think about as much, especially when positions shift so much against Fox for example. I prefer to think of the interactive element, but both are inherently present and equally important. Overthinking is a part of any early learning process. When learning a dance, you overthink each step of the dance in itself, and what comes next. Eventually you know each chunk. Eventually it's automatic, beyond conscious thought. So you have to go in those stages as well. Fsmash can hit you, but it's also their risk, think from the opponent's perspective as much as possible.

You got the jist of most if it so the answer works fine. Would you say it differently for matchups where they cant get in as easily, like against Samus or Peach?

The interactive element is what I think might actually constitute for being good at the game. I don't think being good means learning what the good moves are, and say doing four dtilts in a row and hoping one of them hits. I don't know jack about chess but to me its like, the queen can do a lot of things on paper right? but its not like you get better at chess by just throwing your queen everywhere. For dash dancing I want to walk the fine line between "spamming" it, (and I put it in air quotes because right now as I practice this I'm sure a lot of people will think I'm thinking that if I just spam dash dance I'll win. I mean hell they said it about you too) and using it because a) its part of neutral game and its an amazing strength of marth and b) I really like the way I feel when I do it effectively. When I play out neutral in this way I don't think I'm getting away with letting the properties of a hitbox do the work for me. I feel like I'm doing my own work. Yes, the tools work for you. But you make the tools work for you, rather than letting them do the job for you. It feels a lot more proactive than just hoping the fact that fsmash is so big and wide that it'll just have some like 70% chance of hitting. Plus I feel that throwing out attacks, even if they're good attacks, like dtilt, shows some lack of consideration for the consequence of your actions. I'm having trouble reconciling this with people like maybe Azen who've made heavy zoning based playstyles work heavily in their favor. But maybe they understand the underlying principles that would apply to that sort of playstyle to where they're not just emptily spamming their moves but making the tools work for them, in the way that you'd make dash dancing work for you.

Half rant/half observation/question.

 

[Kotastic]

I've been playing a lot of great players as of late and am learning a lot from them. Although, they all had one thing in common when I tried some tactics that would work against the average player: I almost always failed to overshoot fsmash/grab/whatever whenever I tried reading their retreat.

PP, how would you suggest to remedy this? It doesn't feel right that I have to double read that one, they are retreating, and two, I pick an option that might hit them as they are probably reacting to my run animation (beating shield vs FH vs dash back more vs immediate attack, etc...). Worse players have conditioned me to think that overshooting would always work if I simply read their retreat, but that's simply doesn't work against better players. It's like, these better players, such as Fox, have their own little dash dance bubble that weed out certain immediate options such as overshooting. I'd imagine other characters have their own versions.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I've been thinking about the following situation a lot recently: you are in centre stage and you know falco will do two approaching lasers, after the two lasers he will land about half to one dash length away. What is the best option I could choose in this situation? I don't feel like I can get a punish in this situation. Ive been crouching and trying to powershield the second laser and then covering whatever I think they'll do next or dtilting their landing if they tend to land closer with mid or high lasers. This situation happens a lot and I feel like I could do so much more with it.

You could run in between lasers and side B him out of his laser startup or trade, or you could dash SH Nair over the second laser, though that's riskier. Depending on whose dash you mean by "one dash" you could jab Falco after the second laser hits. You can crouch PS or dash back PS or (dash in ZPS) depending on how things go. You can also take laser dash back to avoid the attack after the lasers and grab or play a new position. Moving between lasers is key, and intercepting the long laser startup is big. I'd look there.

You got the jist of most if it so the answer works fine. Would you say it differently for matchups where they cant get in as easily, like against Samus or Peach?

The interactive element is what I think might actually constitute for being good at the game. I don't think being good means learning what the good moves are, and say doing four dtilts in a row and hoping one of them hits. I don't know jack about chess but to me its like, the queen can do a lot of things on paper right? but its not like you get better at chess by just throwing your queen everywhere. For dash dancing I want to walk the fine line between "spamming" it, (and I put it in air quotes because right now as I practice this I'm sure a lot of people will think I'm thinking that if I just spam dash dance I'll win. I mean hell they said it about you too) and using it because a) its part of neutral game and its an amazing strength of marth and b) I really like the way I feel when I do it effectively. When I play out neutral in this way I don't think I'm getting away with letting the properties of a hitbox do the work for me. I feel like I'm doing my own work. Yes, the tools work for you. But you make the tools work for you, rather than letting them do the job for you. It feels a lot more proactive than just hoping the fact that fsmash is so big and wide that it'll just have some like 70% chance of hitting. Plus I feel that throwing out attacks, even if they're good attacks, like dtilt, shows some lack of consideration for the consequence of your actions. I'm having trouble reconciling this with people like maybe Azen who've made heavy zoning based playstyles work heavily in their favor. But maybe they understand the underlying principles that would apply to that sort of playstyle to where they're not just emptily spamming their moves but making the tools work for them, in the way that you'd make dash dancing work for you.

Half rant/half observation/question.

Unsure of how I want to respond to Samus right now, but vs Peach I think about it more positionally than interactively since Marth can largely or totally negate what Peach can do in neutral.

Movement is always linked to attacks. If I had the best rhythm but couldn't threaten out of it, no one would respect it. The reason movement feels so good is because it's so much more versatile and finely tunable than using attacks is, and for that reason I love it as well. But attacks and movements are linked, and remembering this helps make both sets of options more effective. Interaction only comes when you mix up threats you understand and are understood(on some level at least) by the opponent. It doesn't have to be overly complicated, it can be mixing dash in WD back with dash in Fair in place/RC Dtilt, but the understanding and the practice are what make you truly interactive. Being good, to me, is deep positional understanding alongside this interactive understanding. I only ever really knew positional understanding and sort of an RPS type of mixup game, but losing the RPS and gaining more interaction has been great for me and anyone I can get into it.

I've been playing a lot of great players as of late and am learning a lot from them. Although, they all had one thing in common when I tried some tactics that would work against the average player: I almost always failed to overshoot fsmash/grab/whatever whenever I tried reading their retreat.

PP, how would you suggest to remedy this? It doesn't feel right that I have to double read that one, they are retreating, and two, I pick an option that might hit them as they are probably reacting to my run animation (beating shield vs FH vs dash back more vs immediate attack, etc...). Worse players have conditioned me to think that overshooting would always work if I simply read their retreat, but that's simply doesn't work against better players. It's like, these better players, such as Fox, have their own little dash dance bubble that weed out certain immediate options such as overshooting. I'd imagine other characters have their own versions.

Why does overshooting work on anyone? Because they think moving away is the best option, especially when they see you move in. So if they challenge you when you move in, then you may be telegraphing your overshoot. As in, you may be running farther forward to overshoot than you do if you're faking it or zoning. This small type of difference based on intent is easily sniffed out among better players, and I found it surprising how much people could respond to it without being explicitly aware of it, and also how bad of a habit it is if one isn't aware of it to be led by their intent instead of the other way around. I would look into this and see if it's an issue.

 

[Kopaka]

Right now I'm of the opinion that it isn't either all RPS or a majority of RPS. It's a fighting game after all. It takes more than 2 or 3 punches to knock a guy over, simply put. This being said, would you agree that it would be of use to practice figuring out just how many feints or threats it would take to get the opponent to respond in a particular way that would benefit you somehow? Going back to what was discussed a few posts above, this reminds me of it being more than just "x beats y". It's like, you're not going to get a stock handed to you because you might see that dtilt = beating fox being on the ground. It just isn't that simple. You cant just go straight for a dudes neck in a real fight, he's going to do everything in his power to defend those kinds of spots.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It is my belief that knowing a few threats really deeply is better than knowing many more shallowly. Bruce Lee's quote about fearing a man practicing one punch a thousand times but not fearing one who practices one thousand punches one time comes to mind. Marth embodies this principle well as he threatens with just a few attacks, and those attacks have pretty clear uses. The way you set up those attacks can be more complex, which I believe is what you're referring to, but even this can overcomplicate things sometimes. Why work on a multi-part feint if you just need a dash in-WD back? It's not always this simple of course, but the exaggeration is to help bring about an idea of simplicity to work toward. There is much depth in simple actions and their simple combinations. For this reason, I recommend depth over breadth, but that doesn't mean exploring new feints is bad. It just means going deep on understanding and practicing some, and modifying when needed is a fine strategy.

 

[Kotastic]

"As in, you may be running farther forward to overshoot than you do if you're faking it or zoning. This small type of difference based on intent is easily sniffed out among better players, and I found it surprising how much people could respond to it without being explicitly aware of it, and also how bad of a habit it is if one isn't aware of it to be led by their intent instead of the other way around."

So you're saying whenever I overshoot for real, I tend to subconsciously shoot at a certain distance that reveals my card of overshooting? And that I should use this subconscious distance to perhaps trick my opponents to reveal their cards as well? Not totally sure if I get the wording of this.

Thinking about this, I tend to pivot grab on reaction to Fox players that try to overshoot shine at an obvious large range, but with better Fox players I cannot and it feels like a mixup to me. They probably play at the range where an overshoot is a legit mixup for them with the same threat ranges, whereas the weaker Fox player doesn't understand that.

 

[Reyjavik]

Yea I've been thinking a ton too on over shooting and undershooting. In my practice I realized how badly I truly utilize dash dance in a majority of encounters in the sense that while playing, I won't use the patterns I've practiced with really. Just kind of do whatever dash comes to mind first and foremost.
Right now It seems that I need to learn percents more for moves as I put out moves in situations but my friend told me that I need to pay more attention to followups and what moves will work most effectively at percents.
It sounds very basic and normal for melee but that kind of made me realize how I put out moves that may work but don't maximize my effectiveness.
I've been trying to also use CCs more the last month and its been much more effective for game but I also flub a bit in it as I usually retaliate with fsmash or dtilt, when I should be going for grabs.
How do people approach as marth when you have a good fox who knows to play the laser game and punish you for misspacing? I'm happy I recognize the risk and reward of moves in some sense now but am unsure how to turn the fox's advantage into my own at higher levels.
I'm trying to overshoot and undershoot but some people (like today) are so good at their own spacing that my own variations fail to hit the mark, as well as in me also failing in some aspect to space correctly.
I'm trying not to go swinging straight in more so now, but playing better players has me confused in how to approach when they know my threat ranges and can simply laser (for example)

 

[Zorcey]

Why don't we use SideB much in the Fox matchup, but it works against Falco/Falcon? I think it has something to do with Fox's speed, but I'm not entirely sure what that amounts to. There are some situations I would use it if I didn't have time to set up an aerial, but does that mean it's always an inferior tool? I guess that it doesn't lead to a direct punish on good SDI and just a conversion would suggest as much. It's one of Marth's more obscure tools and I don't really understand it that well.

Another tool I don't get is Nair, mostly why it's best used in place and often bad to use approaching (though I've seen you break this rule versus floaties and I'm not sure why except for the high reward on Nair/it beats them holding down). I know it covers in front of Marth better than Fair (but not as well above and below), lasts longer, ACs, often has different combo trees and generally feels more reliable than Fair when very close to an opponent, but I'm having trouble taking all the properties and coalescing them into a "these are the kinds of situations you use Nair" type rule(s). All I really have at the moment are specific situations where I know Nair beats certain options and Fair beats others through experimentation, but there's nothing guiding that experimentation. Distinguishing how and when Nair is better or worse than Fair is very murky to me.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I've been experimenting with jab a good bit in neutral against most characters and I'm surprised to see how effective it can be at stopping my opponents game plan and making them have to respect the jab more. They'll be so set on trying to approach me in a certain way that when they get jabbed in the middle of their plan, they stop for a moment wondering what happened. With jab being so big and coming out pretty fast, it's been a nice "interrupter" tool to use in neutral, as well as for edgeguarding in a lot of instances. I've also found a lot of success in using jab to catch people double jumping near ledge and edgeguarding from there. It just seems like such a quick and big move that isn't that committal.

 

[Reyjavik]

Why don't we use SideB much in the Fox matchup, but it works against Falco/Falcon? I think it has something to do with Fox's speed, but I'm not entirely sure what that amounts to. There are some situations I would use it if I didn't have time to set up an aerial, but does that mean it's always an inferior tool? I guess that it doesn't lead to a direct punish on good SDI and just a conversion would suggest as much. It's one of Marth's more obscure tools and I don't really understand it that well.

Another tool I don't get is Nair, mostly why it's best used in place and often bad to use approaching (though I've seen you break this rule versus floaties and I'm not sure why except for the high reward on Nair/it beats them holding down). I know it covers in front of Marth better than Fair (but not as well above and below), lasts longer, ACs, often has different combo trees and generally feels more reliable than Fair when very close to an opponent, but I'm having trouble taking all the properties and coalescing them into a "these are the kinds of situations you use Nair" type rule(s). All I really have at the moment are specific situations where I know Nair beats certain options and Fair beats others through experimentation, but there's nothing guiding that experimentation. Distinguishing how and when Nair is better or worse than Fair is very murky to me.

I've had that kind of problem too lately. Understanding what move will work and be effective. In my studies I think nair for sure is good for ground based enemy approaches with a powerful multihit move thats hard to sdi and can be good di mixup from fair. It lasts longer so you can cover more area plus you can reverse it and hit opponents unsuspecting of it coming out while on platforms or jumping.
Overall I think nair is best used to punish approaches while fair is used to zone and approach in general. Not to say vanilla approaching with fair is best idea.

I've been experimenting with jab a good bit in neutral against most characters and I'm surprised to see how effective it can be at stopping my opponents game plan and making them have to respect the jab more. They'll be so set on trying to approach me in a certain way that when they get jabbed in the middle of their plan, they stop for a moment wondering what happened. With jab being so big and coming out pretty fast, it's been a nice "interrupter" tool to use in neutral, as well as for edgeguarding in a lot of instances. I've also found a lot of success in using jab to catch people double jumping near ledge and edgeguarding from there. It just seems like such a quick and big move that isn't that committal.

Jab is really good, especially against falcon for edgeguarding as you can use that and dtilt to cover a lot. Risk is getting command grabbed though on edge.
Its super helpful in falco mu for those braindead laser - aerials users.
It for sure is a tool that may seem weak, but connects to a lot of trees when reading an opponent's next step

 

[Twinkles]

Why don't we use SideB much in the Fox matchup, but it works against Falco/Falcon? I think it has something to do with Fox's speed, but I'm not entirely sure what that amounts to. There are some situations I would use it if I didn't have time to set up an aerial, but does that mean it's always an inferior tool? I guess that it doesn't lead to a direct punish on good SDI and just a conversion would suggest as much. It's one of Marth's more obscure tools and I don't really understand it that well.

Another tool I don't get is Nair, mostly why it's best used in place and often bad to use approaching (though I've seen you break this rule versus floaties and I'm not sure why except for the high reward on Nair/it beats them holding down). I know it covers in front of Marth better than Fair (but not as well above and below), lasts longer, ACs, often has different combo trees and generally feels more reliable than Fair when very close to an opponent, but I'm having trouble taking all the properties and coalescing them into a "these are the kinds of situations you use Nair" type rule(s). All I really have at the moment are specific situations where I know Nair beats certain options and Fair beats others through experimentation, but there's nothing guiding that experimentation. Distinguishing how and when Nair is better or worse than Fair is very murky to me.

I would probably say wrt side-b: it's because there's more clear situations with good risk-reward in Falco/Falcon as opposed to against Fox. Both Falco and Falcon, if they choose to approach generally do so by covering big steps of distance at a time (cuz Falco doesn't run very fast and Falcon doesn't have very fast moves to play up close). If you're at the distance where their only immediate threat is jumping in to aerial you, side-b can snipe them out of the air if they choose to do so, but also won't leave you very open against either character. On the other hand, Fox is both very fast and has very fast moves, so he can play very noncommital even very up close. So Fox will be more often able to dash dance up in your face, watch you whiff your side-b, and punish you accordingly. Not sure if this is the most accurate explanation, but it's the one that makes the most sense to me.

Nair vs. fair seems like a deep question I'm not qualified to answer. I'd probably say a simple example to think about though is how fair covers above/below better while nair covers in front better. So, if you're playing against a Fox and he tries to SH nair you, your nair would be a better choice in that situation because the nair comes out in front of you and is an immediate wall (with fair, he might bop you in the nose before the downward swing). However, if Fox did a full hop nair at you, he could jump over the nair and hit you. In this case, the arc of fair starting from above your head can clip Fox as he's coming down on you. There's a lot more nuance to these moves and a lot more situations to think about, but I feel like this could be a good starting point though.

 

[maxono1]

Why don't we use SideB much in the Fox matchup, but it works against Falco/Falcon? I think it has something to do with Fox's speed, but I'm not entirely sure what that amounts to. There are some situations I would use it if I didn't have time to set up an aerial, but does that mean it's always an inferior tool? I guess that it doesn't lead to a direct punish on good SDI and just a conversion would suggest as much. It's one of Marth's more obscure tools and I don't really understand it that well.

Another tool I don't get is Nair, mostly why it's best used in place and often bad to use approaching (though I've seen you break this rule versus floaties and I'm not sure why except for the high reward on Nair/it beats them holding down). I know it covers in front of Marth better than Fair (but not as well above and below), lasts longer, ACs, often has different combo trees and generally feels more reliable than Fair when very close to an opponent, but I'm having trouble taking all the properties and coalescing them into a "these are the kinds of situations you use Nair" type rule(s). All I really have at the moment are specific situations where I know Nair beats certain options and Fair beats others through experimentation, but there's nothing guiding that experimentation. Distinguishing how and when Nair is better or worse than Fair is very murky to me.

i dont really have concrete answers but i mostly try to answer your guys questions to deepen my own understanding and compare it to what pp has to say so i hope you dont mind.
i feel like side b isnt used much because he has less range than both of them so you can go for pivot grab more (and pivot grab obv has more payoff)or maybe run under if he does nair.
for example side b against falcon to hit him out of his nair when youre too close to run away in time u side b and i dont know if running under his aerials is realistic
and against falco u cant pivot grab him every time because of laser and running under gets punished by his dair.
i think nair drift forward is not that good because the useful hit comes out rather slowly compared to fair (frame 5-7 compared to 15) so its more telegraphed and a lot easier to whiff punish, also it makes the weakness of it not covering his face worse because the opponent has to just come from above(for example fox fullhop bair in place or like falcons bair something along those lines) you rather than coming at you and from above like when you do it in place.
maybe thats why its sometimes ok against floaties if they hold down because they arent gonna jump up quickly and they dont intend to whiff punish(in that situation at least) anyway
idk when he said it but pp recommended someone to look at the frame data/hitboxes and go from there if you want to guide your experimentation.
also its weird to see how different you can view melee when i compare my answer with the ones from rey and twinkles

 

[maclo4]

At lower percents vs falco should I just refrain from using aerials until they knock down? I feel like the risk reward is pretty terrible if both players are fighting on the ground

 

[Dr Peepee]

"As in, you may be running farther forward to overshoot than you do if you're faking it or zoning. This small type of difference based on intent is easily sniffed out among better players, and I found it surprising how much people could respond to it without being explicitly aware of it, and also how bad of a habit it is if one isn't aware of it to be led by their intent instead of the other way around."

So you're saying whenever I overshoot for real, I tend to subconsciously shoot at a certain distance that reveals my card of overshooting? And that I should use this subconscious distance to perhaps trick my opponents to reveal their cards as well? Not totally sure if I get the wording of this.

Thinking about this, I tend to pivot grab on reaction to Fox players that try to overshoot shine at an obvious large range, but with better Fox players I cannot and it feels like a mixup to me. They probably play at the range where an overshoot is a legit mixup for them with the same threat ranges, whereas the weaker Fox player doesn't understand that.

It means you cut off your run before it's a threat when you fake sometimes, and you want to lengthen it to make it a real deviation. And yes that Fox shine is a result of playing the real mixup there.

Why don't we use SideB much in the Fox matchup, but it works against Falco/Falcon? I think it has something to do with Fox's speed, but I'm not entirely sure what that amounts to. There are some situations I would use it if I didn't have time to set up an aerial, but does that mean it's always an inferior tool? I guess that it doesn't lead to a direct punish on good SDI and just a conversion would suggest as much. It's one of Marth's more obscure tools and I don't really understand it that well.

Another tool I don't get is Nair, mostly why it's best used in place and often bad to use approaching (though I've seen you break this rule versus floaties and I'm not sure why except for the high reward on Nair/it beats them holding down). I know it covers in front of Marth better than Fair (but not as well above and below), lasts longer, ACs, often has different combo trees and generally feels more reliable than Fair when very close to an opponent, but I'm having trouble taking all the properties and coalescing them into a "these are the kinds of situations you use Nair" type rule(s). All I really have at the moment are specific situations where I know Nair beats certain options and Fair beats others through experimentation, but there's nothing guiding that experimentation. Distinguishing how and when Nair is better or worse than Fair is very murky to me.

Falco and Falcon are usually jumping and not holding down so it works great vs them. Fox has many grounded and aerial threats, and could attack from many spacings and timings, so side B is less useful against him(sometimes he could end up close and be holding down to shine as well). However, if you can hit him out of the air without reacting in another way, then that's fine to use sometimes. It generally won't give much of a punish though(or even a favorable position), which is why it's not recommended. Side B is neat though. Multi hit, can eat inputs, comes out fast from high to low, mediocre range. I like it as a surprise option and a keep my opponents honest(thinking about holding down at least) option. Given the relatively low lag of the first two hits, sometimes they can look like "warning shots" as well.

Nair is two thin hitboxes that are spaced apart by a bit, and they angle down in front and up and behind Marth. The second hit struggles to eat jumps if you FF it correctly(depends on opponent jump height too) because of the lower front part, and the back hit isn't used much except sometimes if they're on a side platform above you and you hope they run into it to avoid Fair. Moving forward with both Fair and Nair is bad, but Fair isn't as telegraphed(though still pretty bad) since it doesn't stay active as long as Nair. The second Nair hitbox is the strong one, but it takes quite a while to get to that, whereas Fair can be missed sometimes. This is why Nair'ing in is worse: it suffers the same lag and vulnerability problem of Fair but with more telegraphing. Using it in place allows you to have the space to let the good second hit come out to beat grounded or aerial approaches, and it's even safer if you even slightly retreat with it. I have some other things I view differently from you about Nair, but maybe I should stop here and let you respond to this.

At lower percents vs falco should I just refrain from using aerials until they knock down? I feel like the risk reward is pretty terrible if both players are fighting on the ground

Falco is rarely on the ground, and if he is then he's likely to jump if you come near him or shield or aerial. All of that loses to your aerials. If you run up Nair in place where the Nair can hit him, then you'll eat any jumps into you and also hit him if he holds down. So I think aerial vs Falco is very okay.

 

[Reyjavik]

Moving forward with both Fair and Nair is bad, but Fair isn't as telegraphed(though still pretty bad) since it doesn't stay active as long as Nair. The second Nair hitbox is the strong one, but it takes quite a while to get to that, whereas Fair can be missed sometimes. This is why Nair'ing in is worse: it suffers the same lag and vulnerability problem of Fair but with more telegraphing. Using it in place allows you to have the space to let the good second hit come out to beat grounded or aerial approaches, and it's even safer if you even slightly retreat with it. I have some other things I view differently from you about Nair, but maybe I should stop here and let you respond to this.

So I think that's been an issue I haven't been addressing much, suing rising fairs and nairs to approach with after a dash back.
If you aren't supposed to lead in with fair and nair, how are you threatening your opponent with just grab and dtilt? Like I said in earlier post, I feel lost in how to approach higher skilled players now

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can do late Fair and that's okay(sometimes rising Fair is good too). You can partially approach and then use Fair/Nair/Dtilt and that's fine and plays on Marth's strengths. Marth is not a RUN ALL THE WAY AT THEM WHEN APPROACHING guy, he is a SOMETIMES RUN IN A BIT AND HOLD SPACE, SOMETIMES STAY IN PLACE AND BE SMART guy.

 

[Reyjavik]

You can do late Fair and that's okay(sometimes rising Fair is good too). You can partially approach and then use Fair/Nair/Dtilt and that's fine and plays on Marth's strengths. Marth is not a RUN ALL THE WAY AT THEM WHEN APPROACHING guy, he is a SOMETIMES RUN IN A BIT AND HOLD SPACE, SOMETIMES STAY IN PLACE AND BE SMART guy.

Yea I've been trying to not just go all in a times for sure but have felt lost in approaching as either I make a misspaced action or the opponent just comes in and wrecks my stuffing lol.

Can I get your critique on my play here? I realize I approached poorly in end as I was having trouble like I said figuring out how to approach more high skilled people. Like I said, I've been trying to work on not just going all in and hopefully you can provide some pointers or intuition into how I could have done better
https://imgur.com/a/ZvynSNq

 

[maxono1]

Yea I've been trying to not just go all in a times for sure but have felt lost in approaching as either I make a misspaced action or the opponent just comes in and wrecks my stuffing lol.

Can I get your critique on my play here? I realize I approached poorly in end as I was having trouble like I said figuring out how to approach more high skilled people. Like I said, I've been trying to work on not just going all in and hopefully you can provide some pointers or intuition into how I could have done better
https://imgur.com/a/ZvynSNq

how did you record that? just a camera?
my computer isnt strong enough to record while playing without lagging around so im at a loss as to how to do it
edit:would you want my critique too?

 

[Reyjavik]

how did you record that? just a camera?
my computer isnt strong enough to record while playing without lagging around so im at a loss as to how to do it
edit:would you want my critique too?

Yea of course, I for sure try and leave most of my stuff addressed to all rather than just one or two individuals here. I used Nvidia shadowplay so no external camera then rendered gif in premiere

 

[maxono1]

and you dont get any lag with it? i use the amd equivalent and it feels like im playing on a plasma tv or something.

so for your gif i would start with him cc your dtilt and dtilting you back you can asdi down fox dtilt until 22% percent so you could have cc grabbed him if you held down which you probably should anyway after doing dtilt.

then if you dont wanna do that you could have done land into overshoot dtilt or rising fair or atleast take space by drifting forward with your fair coming down after you see him drill which you know will whiff because youre to the right and above him and people like to retreat after they whiff a move
(esp him because after the game starts he waits under side platform and doesnt even want to take center and waits for you to come to him, so it seems to me he doesnt want to take much risk)
but you could be playing more often with the guy and know that he likes to do the double down (another attack) after he whiffs an aerial then your option would be fine i think.

then is the part where you you retreat even though he is still waiting under the side platform which you dont need to because hes mostly shooting lasers. also the bair but thats probably a flub so thats ok
i think in these kind of standoff situations you can try the pp compound approach where you go in far as if you will attack but retreat without doing one just to see what he will do (dash in wavedash back is good in my experience)
what i would recommend you is to consider what your opponent wants to do/what they are looking for from you so that they can commit themselves.
if you want to see it in action where its also explained you should look at the Lord episodes from the reads.

also study the stuff kotastic has compiled and look up the marth discord there is so much stuff in there that you are guaranteed to find something.
edit: tbh when they laser i just fsmash or dash attack them but idk if you wanna play that risky

 

[maxono1]

Dr Peepee or anyone here if they do it
do you use cstick down while moving around? if so in which situations?

 

[Birdsnest]

What do you guys do when you start thinking about stuff like "What if I win" or "What if I lose". Once I think that it just spirals down because I panic and start having arguments in my head like "Don't think about it" "Just focus on the game" "by telling yourself to focus on the game you're not focusing on the game" and I just can't pull myself back mentally. It's really the only thing I feel is really pulling me down right now.

 

[CAUP]

Stop thinking in your head completely and look at what is happening on the screen. There is a lot to pay attention to and your body will take over controlling if you give it space. Also practice this in friendlies. Pretend it is a high stress situation. At least for me, I'm surprised how easily I can imagine that. If you practice enough times, you'll get use to not losing your focus during an intense match. Obviously there are levels to this however, and losing focus will always be somewhat of a problem. But the more experienced you get, the better you will be able to keep focus.

 

[maxono1]

What do you guys do when you start thinking about stuff like "What if I win" or "What if I lose". Once I think that it just spirals down because I panic and start having arguments in my head like "Don't think about it" "Just focus on the game" "by telling yourself to focus on the game you're not focusing on the game" and I just can't pull myself back mentally. It's really the only thing I feel is really pulling me down right now.

lol thats so relatable, in my experience it gets worse the higher the stakes.
start practicing meditation its literally pulling yourself back mentally over and over so its a lot easier to do when you need it.
also what caup said focus on the screen/what the opponent is doing that is a good place to start when you find yourself thinking that

 

[Zorcey]

Falco and Falcon are usually jumping and not holding down so it works great vs them. Fox has many grounded and aerial threats, and could attack from many spacings and timings, so side B is less useful against him(sometimes he could end up close and be holding down to shine as well). However, if you can hit him out of the air without reacting in another way, then that's fine to use sometimes. It generally won't give much of a punish though(or even a favorable position), which is why it's not recommended. Side B is neat though. Multi hit, can eat inputs, comes out fast from high to low, mediocre range. I like it as a surprise option and a keep my opponents honest(thinking about holding down at least) option. Given the relatively low lag of the first two hits, sometimes they can look like "warning shots" as well.

Nair is two thin hitboxes that are spaced apart by a bit, and they angle down in front and up and behind Marth. The second hit struggles to eat jumps if you FF it correctly(depends on opponent jump height too) because of the lower front part, and the back hit isn't used much except sometimes if they're on a side platform above you and you hope they run into it to avoid Fair. Moving forward with both Fair and Nair is bad, but Fair isn't as telegraphed(though still pretty bad) since it doesn't stay active as long as Nair. The second Nair hitbox is the strong one, but it takes quite a while to get to that, whereas Fair can be missed sometimes. This is why Nair'ing in is worse: it suffers the same lag and vulnerability problem of Fair but with more telegraphing. Using it in place allows you to have the space to let the good second hit come out to beat grounded or aerial approaches, and it's even safer if you even slightly retreat with it. I have some other things I view differently from you about Nair, but maybe I should stop here and let you respond to this.

Your analysis of SideB is helpful, I think it solidifies some things I knew about the tool but wasn’t quite confident in my conclusions on. The general idea that SideB is less useful against Fox because of his relatively large amount of grounded threats compared to Falco/Falcon makes a lot of sense.

Are the things you disagree with about Nair what I said about finding it more reliable than Fair when close to an opponent, and/or covering in front better than Fair, but not above or below? The reason I use Nair in close situations is because it can eat their jump easily and beat holding down, or if I fade back with it, it’ll AC and I can get another option out quickly if they try to pressure my landing. (But it would actually be unfounded to say it’s more reliable than Fair in these situations based on this - I may have only said as much because I use it more (or think I do, at least). Regardless of whether this was something you disagree with, I should experiment with variations on both tools in those situations more.)

As for Nair not covering above or below Marth as well as Fair, I said that because Nair generally loses to stuff like spacie Bair and FH aerials, having a “blind spot” in the space above the front hit, or basically Marth’s head and upper body. It also seems like because the strong hitbox takes awhile to come out, it can lose to some yolo ground options that late Fair would beat.

I’m interested in hearing anything else you feel differently about concerning Nair, and anything you’d want to correct in what I’ve said above. (As is usually the case, explaining my thoughts has made me realize there are assumptions I’ve made/things I haven’t finished thinking through without realizing it, so even if you actually do agree with what I’ve said here, it’s a great exercise.)

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee or anyone here if they do it
do you use cstick down while moving around? if so in which situations?

I don't do it, but I've considered learning it. If I do ever use it, it would be in a situation in which I dash back when I'm close to them and expecting an attack. I think leaving it there at all times is a bit excessive, but it doesn't necessarily hurt anything if you can aerial ASAP and such when needed.

What do you guys do when you start thinking about stuff like "What if I win" or "What if I lose". Once I think that it just spirals down because I panic and start having arguments in my head like "Don't think about it" "Just focus on the game" "by telling yourself to focus on the game you're not focusing on the game" and I just can't pull myself back mentally. It's really the only thing I feel is really pulling me down right now.

You have to train yourself mentally with meditation as maxono has said, and this training will help keep you calm in tourney. Remember, the opponent will also be thinking about winning or losing at the same time often, so think about how to use their own concerns against them in the game. Feeding into the game with specific questions really helps. Taking time outside of the matches to think of what you want to think during high pressure moments instead of "don't think about it" is a good idea and it's like practicing tech. It kicks in when the situation comes up if you do it well.

Your analysis of SideB is helpful, I think it solidifies some things I knew about the tool but wasn’t quite confident in my conclusions on. The general idea that SideB is less useful against Fox because of his relatively large amount of grounded threats compared to Falco/Falcon makes a lot of sense.

Are the things you disagree with about Nair what I said about finding it more reliable than Fair when close to an opponent, and/or covering in front better than Fair, but not above or below? The reason I use Nair in close situations is because it can eat their jump easily and beat holding down, or if I fade back with it, it’ll AC and I can get another option out quickly if they try to pressure my landing. (But it would actually be unfounded to say it’s more reliable than Fair in these situations based on this - I may have only said as much because I use it more (or think I do, at least). Regardless of whether this was something you disagree with, I should experiment with variations on both tools in those situations more.)

As for Nair not covering above or below Marth as well as Fair, I said that because Nair generally loses to stuff like spacie Bair and FH aerials, having a “blind spot” in the space above the front hit, or basically Marth’s head and upper body. It also seems like because the strong hitbox takes awhile to come out, it can lose to some yolo ground options that late Fair would beat.

I’m interested in hearing anything else you feel differently about concerning Nair, and anything you’d want to correct in what I’ve said above. (As is usually the case, explaining my thoughts has made me realize there are assumptions I’ve made/things I haven’t finished thinking through without realizing it, so even if you actually do agree with what I’ve said here, it’s a great exercise.)

Yes those would be disagreements. First hit of Nair is only useful if they jump but otherwise if it hits it can make the second hit miss sometimes for example. The exact spacing may matter here as well. Fair covers one air + ground timing together and does it with what seems to be a bigger hitbox, so I would say it's more reliable. I found myself personally getting blown up, especially by Fox, for using Nair even kind of near him so I am not so hot on that move for non-zoning or comboing purposes in many matchups.

Early Fair can also hit grounded opponents, which is a speed advantage over Nair, but mid Fair is also advantaged over Nair in terms of speed too.

It is definitely a good exercise, which is part of why I ask to draw things out.

 

[maclo4]

I just had such a revelation in the falco mu that is literally the simplest thing. So theres the ideal gameplan thats basically "make falco scared to laser, and if he starts lasering less you have more freedom to approach and move", and I got pretty good at the first part, but I could never figure out how to approach falco well regardless of if hes lasering a lot or not. Then someone told me just wavedash fsmash when falco dash dances or backs off, and then if they shield you can just grab them. Now this seems really simple, but I realized I was almost always closing space with dash before. So I started to wd at falco when he backs off and holy crap its so much scarier for the falco. Like I don't even really need to fsmash its just the threat of it and and i have way more options at my disposal after a wd. I know this is simple but I felt like I can actually threaten falco instead of letting him play his game. Sometimes its the simplest things that I dont think about I swear

 

[RedmanSSBM]

Here is a collection of clips that I took from a recent netplay session with a Sheik main. I'm gonna go through each of them in this post with questions that I have.

0:00 - Is wavelanding off the side platform and fairing on the way down a good idea to keep Sheik in the corner on Pokemon Stadium? Or is it best to not try to use the platform in this way?

0:06 - When I double jump over Sheik like this, should I be trying to attack her with a dair from above (which I attempt but mis-time) or is it better to try to retreat to one of the side platforms using my side-b or an airdodge? There are probably some other scuffle situation things that are happening in this segment that I am unaware of, so if you notice something else, please let me know. It just looks like a scuffle to me when I am playing so it's hard for me to process what's going on in real time unless I look at the specifics.

0:10 - I must not be understanding the trajectory and speed that Sheik is coming down with after she has used her double jump to where I can react an upair. I am trying to react to her coming down in this instance but I am reacting too late (I even try to nair). I'm wondering when I'm sharking Sheik from below on FD and if she does have her DJ, is it best to SH or FH upair to threaten hitting her with upair to force her to DJ? Or Do I need to make sure that I hit with upair for my movement and reaction to be useful? I know I shouldn't be getting faired here but I'm clearly failing to find an early enough reaction point. That or netplay shortens the window for this reaction point significantly enough to where I can't really react but it's only a 1.5-2 frame delay so I have a feeling that doesn't make much of an impact.

0:14 - Here I send Sheik upwards with an upair and then proceed to land on the ground. Immediately after I FH into DJ and try to use upair to cover her landing on the top platform. I want to cover this because I don't want her to land on the ground and she was just about to DJ. My upair ends up whiffing and Sheik jumps to the right and onto the side platform. I don't get down to the ground quickly enough to punish her landing there. My question is, should I even be trying to cover the top platform at all when I send her up there? Is it okay for me to try to punish or cover her landing or should I just let her land there? Is there even enough time for me to both cover her landing on top platform and also cover her landing on side platform right after without using my DJ?

0:18 - Is the AC fair into dash attack a true mixup from Sheik when she's in neutral like this? If it's not, how would I position myself to account for the threatening range of the fair and dash attack and not put myself in the corner or on the ledge? In my mind I would be trying to whiff punish the fair (which might not even be a good idea in the first place) but with the dash attack afterwards I'm unsure how to counter that. Jumping didn't work in the clip, and I'm not sure about shielding because I would only really get dair oos guaranteed at that point. Would retreating to side platform be okay here? I'm honestly unsure how to deal with this sequence of attacks.

0:22 - Here after getting down-thrown I DI away, the Sheik then SH AC fairs me and is able to dash attack my DI away on the fair. Should I still keep trying to DI away or down + away on the dash attack and have me be pushed closer off the stage? I feel like she can dash attack me again if I try to DI this way and put me in an edgeguard situation. I'm mostly having trouble understanding when I should be trying to DI down and away and when I should be DIing on or to a platform.

0:27 - I DJ upair to force her to DJ which makes her have to land on top platform. When I'm on the ground below her and she's on top platform, should I be trying to cover her landing here or would it be better to just respect her being on top platform and cover her coming down?

0:31 - Same DI question relating to dash attack again. Just unsure how I should be DIing it in this situation. I don't know how much different this position is from the previous one.

0:35 - Here I DI away on the uptilt after she down throws me and both hits connect but her rising fair doesn't connect. I think this was more of a mistake on the Sheik's part than me doing the right thing here. I'm honestly just unsure what I should try to do if both hits of uptilt end up connecting on me.

0:39 - Another similar sharking question. After I hit the un-tippered upair and she DIs hard right, I try to jump and potentially fair her but she fairs me first. Would it be better to always try to position myself directly below her by dashing further or would doing the same jump and just fairing at a better timing work? I've heard that trying to be directly below Sheik as much as you can is a good play but I'm unsure how true that is in most situations, especially this one.

0:43 - Another similar situation as the YS clip where I get hit by both hits of uptilt, but this time the Sheik dashes before the rising fair and it connects. Because of my DI, it looks like she is able to get a guaranteed follow up with a grab. Should I be trying to SDI the rising fair so that I force her to have to dash attack? Is there a different DI I can do?

0:49 - After I uptilt Sheik and she DIs behind I set myself up to SH fair her, but she ends up DJing to the top platform. While this is happening I contemplate if I should use my DJ on reaction from the SH to upair her before she lands on top platform. But something tells me she has a lot of different mixups to hit me with if I end up using my DJ. Then I get hit without a DJ and that's bad news for me. What would be a better setplay for a situation like this that doesn't put me at risk?

0:53 - I fair Sheik right as she uses DJ and it sends her pretty high upward. Here I don't know if my idea to DJ to try to upair her off the top was a good idea or if it was better to go below the side platform and wait for her to come down?

0:58 - Here after the uptilt hits connect and I DI the upair away + up, would it have been feasible for me to airdodge onto the side platform to try to get away? Would that even be a good idea in the first place? Could I try to go for a triangle jump here and waveland away to get away from Sheik? Should I try to counter attack here or should I just accept that I'm gonna get hit and just DI for it?

Wow this ended up being pretty lengthy. Any and all input is accepted and appreciated.

 

[maxono1]

what kind of set up do you have?
even with a kind of ****ty set up and standard non gaming monitor u can get it to be like crt on 5 buffer which is very possible with the 20 ms ping ur having.
i would make getting your setup to be like your playing offline your top priority

 

[Dr Peepee]

Here is a collection of clips that I took from a recent netplay session with a Sheik main. I'm gonna go through each of them in this post with questions that I have.

0:00 - Is wavelanding off the side platform and fairing on the way down a good idea to keep Sheik in the corner on Pokemon Stadium? Or is it best to not try to use the platform in this way?

0:06 - When I double jump over Sheik like this, should I be trying to attack her with a dair from above (which I attempt but mis-time) or is it better to try to retreat to one of the side platforms using my side-b or an airdodge? There are probably some other scuffle situation things that are happening in this segment that I am unaware of, so if you notice something else, please let me know. It just looks like a scuffle to me when I am playing so it's hard for me to process what's going on in real time unless I look at the specifics.

0:10 - I must not be understanding the trajectory and speed that Sheik is coming down with after she has used her double jump to where I can react an upair. I am trying to react to her coming down in this instance but I am reacting too late (I even try to nair). I'm wondering when I'm sharking Sheik from below on FD and if she does have her DJ, is it best to SH or FH upair to threaten hitting her with upair to force her to DJ? Or Do I need to make sure that I hit with upair for my movement and reaction to be useful? I know I shouldn't be getting faired here but I'm clearly failing to find an early enough reaction point. That or netplay shortens the window for this reaction point significantly enough to where I can't really react but it's only a 1.5-2 frame delay so I have a feeling that doesn't make much of an impact.

0:14 - Here I send Sheik upwards with an upair and then proceed to land on the ground. Immediately after I FH into DJ and try to use upair to cover her landing on the top platform. I want to cover this because I don't want her to land on the ground and she was just about to DJ. My upair ends up whiffing and Sheik jumps to the right and onto the side platform. I don't get down to the ground quickly enough to punish her landing there. My question is, should I even be trying to cover the top platform at all when I send her up there? Is it okay for me to try to punish or cover her landing or should I just let her land there? Is there even enough time for me to both cover her landing on top platform and also cover her landing on side platform right after without using my DJ?

0:18 - Is the AC fair into dash attack a true mixup from Sheik when she's in neutral like this? If it's not, how would I position myself to account for the threatening range of the fair and dash attack and not put myself in the corner or on the ledge? In my mind I would be trying to whiff punish the fair (which might not even be a good idea in the first place) but with the dash attack afterwards I'm unsure how to counter that. Jumping didn't work in the clip, and I'm not sure about shielding because I would only really get dair oos guaranteed at that point. Would retreating to side platform be okay here? I'm honestly unsure how to deal with this sequence of attacks.

0:22 - Here after getting down-thrown I DI away, the Sheik then SH AC fairs me and is able to dash attack my DI away on the fair. Should I still keep trying to DI away or down + away on the dash attack and have me be pushed closer off the stage? I feel like she can dash attack me again if I try to DI this way and put me in an edgeguard situation. I'm mostly having trouble understanding when I should be trying to DI down and away and when I should be DIing on or to a platform.

0:27 - I DJ upair to force her to DJ which makes her have to land on top platform. When I'm on the ground below her and she's on top platform, should I be trying to cover her landing here or would it be better to just respect her being on top platform and cover her coming down?

0:31 - Same DI question relating to dash attack again. Just unsure how I should be DIing it in this situation. I don't know how much different this position is from the previous one.

0:35 - Here I DI away on the uptilt after she down throws me and both hits connect but her rising fair doesn't connect. I think this was more of a mistake on the Sheik's part than me doing the right thing here. I'm honestly just unsure what I should try to do if both hits of uptilt end up connecting on me.

0:39 - Another similar sharking question. After I hit the un-tippered upair and she DIs hard right, I try to jump and potentially fair her but she fairs me first. Would it be better to always try to position myself directly below her by dashing further or would doing the same jump and just fairing at a better timing work? I've heard that trying to be directly below Sheik as much as you can is a good play but I'm unsure how true that is in most situations, especially this one.

0:43 - Another similar situation as the YS clip where I get hit by both hits of uptilt, but this time the Sheik dashes before the rising fair and it connects. Because of my DI, it looks like she is able to get a guaranteed follow up with a grab. Should I be trying to SDI the rising fair so that I force her to have to dash attack? Is there a different DI I can do?

0:49 - After I uptilt Sheik and she DIs behind I set myself up to SH fair her, but she ends up DJing to the top platform. While this is happening I contemplate if I should use my DJ on reaction from the SH to upair her before she lands on top platform. But something tells me she has a lot of different mixups to hit me with if I end up using my DJ. Then I get hit without a DJ and that's bad news for me. What would be a better setplay for a situation like this that doesn't put me at risk?

0:53 - I fair Sheik right as she uses DJ and it sends her pretty high upward. Here I don't know if my idea to DJ to try to upair her off the top was a good idea or if it was better to go below the side platform and wait for her to come down?

0:58 - Here after the uptilt hits connect and I DI the upair away + up, would it have been feasible for me to airdodge onto the side platform to try to get away? Would that even be a good idea in the first place? Could I try to go for a triangle jump here and waveland away to get away from Sheik? Should I try to counter attack here or should I just accept that I'm gonna get hit and just DI for it?

Wow this ended up being pretty lengthy. Any and all input is accepted and appreciated.

0:00- That's fine to do sometimes.

0:06- Either is fine. Would be tough to do anything besides maybe Dair here since Sheik can easily hit you in this position. The DJ itself was probably the biggest issue since it allowed her to get positioned under you.

0:10- Yeah setting up SH Uair/Fair is good here. You don't need to hit her for it to be useful, and can cover a lot with well-timed SH aerial.

0:14- You could FH and react if she comes down with DJ Uair/Fair, but she's likely to land then(I don't think this is bad). You could instead SH and if she comes down you can react and DJ Uair/Fair. The SH would make it easier to cover the jump right, but both could work if you time your jumps and FFs well.
0:18- When you WD'd back as she Fair'd, you could have Dtilted to beat DA and stay safe. If you jumped in place or surely backwards, you would have dodged DA. You can shield occasionally or platform occasionally, but they are both fairly risky, the platform especially.

0:22- If you hadn't jumped, and if you had SDI'd down and away, you'd probably have been fine. If you do jump and get Fair'd at this percent and go up, then Sheik could run forward with another Fair I believe.

0:27- Landing on the side/top platform from the Uair would have helped you cover her coming down, but when on the ground and she's on the platform, it's fine to mainly look for covering her coming down. Threatening her with FH/DJ Fair/Bair and using empty SH to threaten it sometimes is good at encouraging her not to wait though, and it pays to know how to pressure there.

0:31- Probably just SDI up. Was a bad way to get hit, but that's how it is with Sheik sometimes.

0:35- Up and/or out is fine. I think I personally try to go diagonally so the second hit whiffs and gives me a bit more time.

0:39- Looks like you should be ready to Uair/Fair them even if they don't jump, and it helps that most people jump ASAP out of combos or juggles so you know when to throw a move a little better. I would say you should have moved forward slightly more with the jump, but otherwise it was fine.

0:43- I just go straight up there so she can't do all of that. You may have been able to go up more on the Fair though, and maybe could buffer spotdodge against the grab.

0:49- You should have DJ Uair'd her DJ as she's closing in on the top platform.

0:53- Both ways are fine. The Uair at that percent wouldn't have killed though. You could have DJ Fair'd her offstage instead if you wanted.

0:58- You could have triangle jumped on the side platform, or fallen with Fair, or DJ'd to the top platform.