I haven't been very active on the board for awhile now, and I've realized it's been the result of my ego. A combination of thinking that I "should" be able to answer questions on my own, and the fear of asking "stupid" questions has discouraged me for asking for help when I've needed it. I've only started to understand this because, having been the best player in my school/local area for awhile now, the weight of being expected to perform well has mixed with a feeling of imposter syndrome/fraudulence (because I
know what a small pond I'm in) and made me question why I'm even playing; why am I taking on the weight of being a competitor when the people around me no longer push me and I'm not proud of beating them? Winning isn't satisfying anymore, it's just relieving. But this is also ego: I keep trying to win at the expense of playing to understand, because I'm trying to protect that part of me that won't accept how much I still suck. (And I think this heavily contributes to my issues with tension and focus as well.)
I've been thinking a lot lately about how I need to humble myself if I want to improve further, and part of that needs to be learning to fully invest in loss without insecurity, and learning to find
understanding Melee fulfilling in itself, and not just as a means to winning. I also think posting more frequently and not worrying about how "smart" or "advanced" my questions are before I ask them will do me a lot of good. (Not to say I shouldn't try to work things out myself first, obviously.) I need to gently guide myself toward the ways of thinking I want and replace my bad habits with good ones.
Confirms:
1) When I play lately I'm often thinking about whether I can confirm an option versus it being a true mixup in a given position, but I've been having troubling distilling any hard rules that make things easier than looking at each individual option in each position in each matchup and asking if it's confirmable and if so out of what option of Marth's etc. Are there such rules that would make the confirmable options and the true mixups in a position more obvious? (Not sure if it's too general a concept for a good answer to this.)
2) Would it be correct to define the tools that set Marth up to confirm his opponent's options are his movement tools like dash in/WD back/SH back, etc.? Are there times you would be able to confirm out of a bigger commitment like a swing that I should consider? (Zoning with an aerial like retreating Fair or Nair in place are good options to observe out of, but it feels like it's the jump - the movement - that you're confirming out of before the swing.)
3) Do you want to observe out of
every movement, or group movements into sequences and observe out of those (the latter makes more sense to me)? And when I'm observing out of movement in neutral, am I looking to to
confirm my opponent's actions, or truly react to whatever it is they do? In other words, should you always have some kind of expectation of what you're looking for? (That expectation of some option or type of options is what I think makes a confirm different than a true reaction, but I'm not sure if that distinction is correct.)
4) There are times when you have to still have to guess
based on what you confirm what your opponent has in mind next, and you can't always get a direct punish on a confirmable option, right? For example, if I dash in and confirm that my opponent dashes back in response to concede space, I can keep pressing in with something like RC Dtilt or Nair in place to force a mixup, but the dash back I observed can't be directly punished except to force my opponent to run with it as we enter the mixup situation. But I could also choose to not play that mixup, and just take the space while I observe what they do next, correct? So I shouldn't just be using confirms to directly counter options, I can also use them to set up the positions I want in neutral, right? (Here I'm just checking my understanding/wondering if you could add anything.)
5) My current approach to analyzing positions is to look for what tools I have (often movements) out of which I can confirm as many of my opponent options as possible, because this gives me the most coverage and I try to make these my "default." Then I look for what true mixups my opponent has that I need to respect, and what mixups I have to beat those. (For example,
https://youtu.be/YAgmV3cCKm0?t=68 this WD back looks like it allows you to confirm basically any immediate ledge option except maybe double laser or ledgedash, which would be the mixups I'd have to account for in this position.) Is there anything you would add to this or critique?
Falco:
1)
https://youtu.be/YAgmV3cCKm0?t=5 Did you confirm out of the dash back that Falco was jumping in after you, and then intentionally take laser grab? It's a bit of an awkward moment because he's not close enough to convert off the laser, so he just walks toward you lol. Would you recommend this option if you notice Falco isn't quite close enough to combo off his laser in? (I figure he could also crouch here which would beat take laser Jab/SideB.)
2)
https://youtu.be/YAgmV3cCKm0?t=25 Why do you roll into the corner here? Would Falco Bair outspace Marth Jab/SideB at this spacing? You do a similar roll here
https://youtu.be/YAgmV3cCKm0?t=81
3)
https://youtu.be/YAgmV3cCKm0?t=27 You use take laser dash back and dash back out of your landings quite a lot throughout this game, and this moment is actually kind of hilarious where you just dash back over and over again and there's not really anything Falco can do about it unless he all ins after landing his laser (which is extremely risky because Marth can cover it with Nair/Jab/SideB, right?). But it looks like after taking this first laser you could beat Falco moving in with take laser Jab or something, but instead of playing that mixup you dash back. This seems to be more reliable because like I said, it doesn't immediately look like Falco can do much except keep lasering or take space, but what would you do as Falco, if you were to punish a Marth who kept dashing back out of taking your lasers/on landing? As Marth, what options are you concerned with that would make you want to
not dash back?
4) Quickly testing, Falco can slideoff DI platform techchase Uairs until 55% pre-Uthrow, which is kind of crazy. Does this mean when Marth gets an Uthrow under the side platforms he just can't cover all the different tech options on reaction if Falco plays it right? Does he have to take the 50/50s with Utilt and WL grab? Are there other ideas for this situation you have? (Setchi came up with some alternative awhile ago that you might have seen, but the reaction feels very difficult and it's a tight window so I'm not sure about its consistency
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWweGqO7VBM)
Agree with first paragraphs. It's easier said than done, but you're making the effort.
1. If they attack from far away with a laggy option, it's confirmable. If they're right next to you and it's fast like a shine, then it's not. If they can't hit you with a standing or aerial move in place, then chances go up you can confirm. Beyond this, you can manipulate what is confirmable to an extent by setting things up. If you see an opponent dash in after you Fair zone, then you potentially confirm an incoming attack, which you then beat out as it happens. As you practice positions more, some things you couldn't confirm before in a raw sense or out of a setup become possible confirms. So this is why it's hard to say what is and isn't confirmable.
2. You can do aerials or movement. Consider Marth's Nair, which takes a while to resolve. You have time during it to see how they respond to it. Adding in the tiniest bit of time after landing helps you see what they will do next, so sometimes you have to do this.
3. I believe it's best to be looking during most movements, but you can build your observations however you like. It's easier to look out of a set, but what if your set is interrupted in the middle while you weren't looking? You can look for general things such as moving in or back, or specific things such as a Fox Nair in. The more specific, the less likely of course. So you can experiment and see what you can specifically react to, and what generally reacting helps with enough to be worth it. As long as you know Fox will rush in, then you can outrange or move back against whatever he does, so setting yourself up to do that can be fine. But bigger, and more unexpected, punishes come from knowing what and when the opponent will act, so it pays to have counters to both types.
4. That's right, though I'd argue moving in is a bit of a counter in your example(just a softer one). I'd suggest not playing the mixup is just staying in place or shifting slightly either direction, which is acceptable.
5. I'd say that's fairly correct. I feel I want to add something, but it escapes me for now.
1. A strange interaction there, but grabbing at closer range can eat Falco's move startup a lot so it's worth going for. And if he lasers again or something it's not so bad. You just need to be careful about him Fsmash'ing or dashing back and punishing if you go for this too much or misspace the range. I don't do it often.
2. That second roll seems like a mistake, but the first one I do because Falco had advantage after hitting that Dair and I knew would aerial into me which I might still be off balance against even if I moved back. Roll in surely gets me out there...except when he messes up tech skill lol.
3. That first dash back is pretty embarrassing to me, given how much space was between us. Anyway, Falco has an option here that is very good against dash back and take laser jab, and that is slight dash forward laser in place. It puts pressure on Marth, and if Marth jabbed then it puts Falco in an important mixup position. I use this a lot as Falco and Marths don't really handle it well. If I saw a Marth continuing to dash back after lasers as Falco, I would probably allow him to keep moving back but would add in a dash back after the first or certainly second iteration to be sure he wasn't trying to draw me in to catch me coming forward with some Fsmash or DA or run up side B or Nair or whatever.
4. This is hard to answer because the starting position and Falco's percent plus DI plus stage matter a lot. Starting under center and past like 30% makes it way easier though. But anyway, yes he can't cover everything in every position at every percent on every stage. I like Fsmash to just ignore the problem sometimes, and I think Fsmash is great even if they hold up because they still get into edgeguard positions, often not too bad ones, and they take lots of damage. The alternative is they die. Utilt on reaction isn't too hard since it's fast, but it isn't always feasible since you could be toward center and they could DI to platform and tech away and you wouldn't have time to hit them(maybe some WD Utilt you could do, but this is complicated enough as it is). Anyway, the main other thing to discuss is SH. You can sometimes Uair tech in place if they're toward center so they can't slide off, and DJ grab if they tech roll since it's slow, and maybe land and Utilt if you have time on certain stages etc. I never labbed it all out perfectly because that's probably impossible anyway, but it's something I'll dedicate a lot of time to later. I think giving you the base options is a good starting point though.
What are the difference between variants of taking space? Such as long dash forward and stalling, WD forward, run up WD down. Does each option accomplish something slightly different? What about walking? Would you consider taking space the act of occupying a space for like a solid second, as opposed to a split second like long dash forward --> short dash back, WD forward --> WD back? What about the act of taking space by zoning forward with jump fair? I want to make sure I'm understand these intricacies of taking space better. Please clarify if my wording is ambiguous.
How do you fight doc that likes to FH pill --> immediately aerial? I find whenever I try to hit the pill, I'm still in lag and leaves me open for the Doc to hit me. Supposedly I can camp doc, but I'm not really seeing it.
How do you also effectively juggle a character like doc/mario? I have a difficult time properly juggling the character because his fall speed is moderate, has various stalling options such as side-b, down-b and airdodge, and his dair has a ginormous hitbox. It feels bad whenever I try to shark and doc immediately DJ --> attacks down to punish my attempted shark. Trying to weave around with uptilt in place feels futile due to those stalling options, and I feel like I get clipped by dair a lot whenever I try to weave around. Annoying character.
What do you do when you have a lot of downtime while waiting in winner's side of GF? What's your mindset regarding the possible opponents, especially when kind of hoping the harder opponent doesn't make it to GF but does so?
Also, soon I will be competing in a crew battle format where I bear a lot of the weight in my team. For nearly all of my time playing, I played only for myself. Thinking only for myself. But, I know this will be different feeling where for the first time in a high-stakes situation, I have the entire team depending on me, and I'm depending on them as well. I have no idea how things will pan out when it happens, but any mentality advice regarding playing with and for others? My motivations and goals for singles is self-improvement and the love of the game, but I'm not sure how that would translate in a crew battle format.
One solution is to look at the frames, or the speed of getting there and the lag. Dash gets you there fastest and you can act out of it whenever, while WD takes a bit to get there and has lag. You can also look at what you can do out of it, which WD affords more than dash. You can look at distance, which WD gives you more total distance than dash does. You can look at audio, which WD gives noise while dash does not(or not much of it). Combining these helps give you ideas. WD gives noise, advances more distance, and has lag. My personal conclusion from this is that WD is used more when you want your opponent to KNOW what you're doing without a doubt. Dash sometimes they may miss it.
You can temporarily take space, when you move into it and then directly away, or more permanently take it, where you move there then away, or fully permanently take it, where you move there and then set up your new efforts from that place. There is obviously overlap.
I don't understand this FH pill into aerial problem. I would imagine you could Fair him out of the air if you're always close enough to threaten him anyway, and if you're not you could just Fair the pill and be outside of his range or something. I also am confused about the jab thing not working, but maybe you're late? I don't know, I'd have to see it.
Yeah Utilt won't work unless they have to come into you. Fair and Uair will serve you better. If Uair and Dair trade that's fine for you. I don't remember much else when I think about it besides "he's a bad character" so I'd probably need to see an example of this too with you using less Utilt to see what the problem is.
I focus on the incoming battle, and don't assume who will be there. I practice against whatever possible characters they play and otherwise keep myself semi warmed up over the waiting period. The tournament isn't over until it's over, and I must stay in tournament mode until it is.
A group is a collection of individuals, but it's also something greater than that. The individuals want everyone to succeed, and they act differently in that shared effort. Being comforted by that total support and also feeding into it when appropriate, verbally or non-verbally, is a great way to manage that new space. You remind me of myself when I would get nervous about my new responsibilities after growing as a player, but in the end no matter what happens you'll have a new great learning experience and will grow from it. Trust your training, and trust theirs.
What do you guys think about practicing fox to get better tech skill? I’ve been doing it recently and I feel like it pushes me the the edge of my tech skill more than practicing marth does. Obviously I still practice marth more but so far I think I’ve actually noticed my tech skill getting crisper
This was something people said to do when I started playing, and I do think it helped some. Fox having so many tight timings really forces you to be as fast as possible in bursts, which translates well to specific small quick plays you'll need as Marth.
