Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Reyjavik]

That's an okay strategy, but if you only ever WD dash grab then your opponent will begin countering after seeing WD since there's a lot of time to react. So you may want to WD into other things as well to mix it up.

Yea, I'm trying to incorporate more wave dashes after aerials as well. May try and experiment more in friendlies how I can use wave dash aerials besides dash into aerials.
I can see though why its so important to have center stage as my friend illustrated how little reward dtilt has in neutral when not having center stage. Its so good when you do

 

[AirFair]

PP, I have a question about preparing for tournaments.

There is a big regional event in TX coming up that I will be attending, which I'm excited about. I want to be well prepared for it, but I also don't want to stress out about making sure I've covered everything I can. In the past, I have tried to review as much as I could, and it had the unintended effect of making me worry that I hadn't studied enough, or that I would forget about something important.

Currently I have a daily practice routine and I watch matches pretty often. My question is, what kind of changes could I make to it leading up to a bigger event, or even for a local tournament? What kind of things have worked for you?

I realize this question has a lot of parallels with how I deal with school too lol so this could definitely help me a lot.

Also, an unrelated question, but when you were attending tournaments more often, how far in advance did you plan to go to them? locals and bigger stuff too. Just curious.

 

[iCrash]

Hey PPMD, in you interview with Toph you mentioned you think you could help Zain clean up his play. That got me curios as to what are you noticing in his play that you think he could improve on or cut.

 

[Dr Peepee]

PP, I have a question about preparing for tournaments.

There is a big regional event in TX coming up that I will be attending, which I'm excited about. I want to be well prepared for it, but I also don't want to stress out about making sure I've covered everything I can. In the past, I have tried to review as much as I could, and it had the unintended effect of making me worry that I hadn't studied enough, or that I would forget about something important.

Currently I have a daily practice routine and I watch matches pretty often. My question is, what kind of changes could I make to it leading up to a bigger event, or even for a local tournament? What kind of things have worked for you?

I realize this question has a lot of parallels with how I deal with school too lol so this could definitely help me a lot.

Also, an unrelated question, but when you were attending tournaments more often, how far in advance did you plan to go to them? locals and bigger stuff too. Just curious.

I would devote more time to preparation in the week(s) leading up to a big event. So more study and more playing in the past, and additionally more practice in the more recent past. I wanted to do all I could so I could trust I did enough and therefore couldn't be nervous. In the beginning I didn't even change much because I was always trying to do as much as I could. When I was an active top player it became about watching specific opponents more and more and making sure my tech was as tight as possible, as well as making sure I tested out all of my ideas vs people playing problem characters or those I hadn't played in a while as close to the event as I could make it. Then a day or two before the event I'd stop and let the information settle in. This helps with relaxation too.

I always went to locals when I was coming up so I planned for them when they were announced. Majors I decided by what I could get to and who would go with me, so sometimes it varied but usually I decided quickly. In the modern era it's more complicated because there are more events and such, but I'd still prefer to decide in advance as much as possible so I can make my schedule accordingly.

 

[Reyjavik]

One thing I think I'm starting to come to terms with is how over aggressive I am. I thought maybe I could bring pressure with aggression as Marth but didn't have a good understanding of the tools Marth oppresses with until my friend pointed out how much I engage an opponent.
Rather than shield or simple move walling, my Marth needs to be more relaxed and less proactive in engaging. Watching Zain showed me how while I don't like his style, it arguably shows a consistently good neutral that reacts to the opponent. I enjoy moving and spacing with Marth but need to now focus on threatening with spacing and grabs rather than fair or fsmash. These tools weren't meant to shield pressure or outright win neutral but instead capitalize on the spacing between opponents. What I need to adapt into my more aggressive marth gameplan is cleaner gameplay that still focuses on movement but pays more attention to percents and spacing than simply putting out moves.
Part of me is sad by this revelation as i like to think of Marth as an aggressive character when in reality he is very defensive/reactionary. How did people come to grips with this?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I think you just can't wildly run in in Melee, but you can be aggressive in varied ways. Sometimes all in, usually a bit slow, sometimes very slow. Marth is rewarded for spacing and not for rushing down or pressing lots of buttons. That doesn't mean he can't be aggressive, but it does mean you have to do it within his constraints. That is always very liberating to me since I like to threaten a lot, even if it doesn't always seem like I'm doing something.

 

[Reyjavik]

I think you just can't wildly run in in Melee, but you can be aggressive in varied ways. Sometimes all in, usually a bit slow, sometimes very slow. Marth is rewarded for spacing and not for rushing down or pressing lots of buttons. That doesn't mean he can't be aggressive, but it does mean you have to do it within his constraints. That is always very liberating to me since I like to threaten a lot, even if it doesn't always seem like I'm doing something.

Yea, I just like elegantly moving with Marth and that freedom is what makes melee so fun for me. I especially get that feeling with Falco as well when comboing as its so engaging and fast while fluid.
Learning to use Marth's tools after a year and a half of playing seems funny but I'm hoping to make the climb to play how I want, not necessarily to win

 

[Kotastic]

I think there's a big problem with my plays recently that needs some addressing with my inherent playstyle.

I just want to hit my opponent. Play it simple. Thanks to Marth's range, it's generally easy for me to do so vs most people and coaxes them to move in. However, when it comes to puffs air camping, fox FH + DJ and him constantly not committing with his dash dance, Peach just floating at a height where I can't easily hit her, Sheiks playing careful with their ground game with constant shields and WD out of it, generally plays that require more drawn out exchanges and I can't easily hit them, I break. I think the answer to those situations is to set up baits and/or take space, but with my preference in playstyle, this is something I try to avoid doing. I think I can't run away from this kind of style anymore, and I need something to address these long-drawn out styles of plays. What is your advice regarding these kinds of situations PP?

Also regarding Sheiks primarily using run up shield as their form of ground game and still communicating threats with WD OoS tilts, would you advise to run up grab at times or opt for dtilt pressure?

Also regarding pressure, I'm not totally sure what to do when I land a dtilt on someone. I get especially nervous when I don't exactly get the strong hit of dtilt so I immediately back off, which at times may not be advisable. Even when I land a strong hit, I get paranoid setting up a pressure sequence being in front of them because unless they're knocked down, I keep thinking that they can easily reversal me. An example is someone buffering shield as a result of getting dtilted, I think I'm supposed to be closer to their shield to pressure, otherwise just standing there after the dtilt as I'm far away then, but then I fear of just getting shield grabbed right in front of my face. I've gotten feedback that I just reset neutral after getting a dtilt rather than pressing my advantages, which is obviously a problem. What should I be thinking instead when landing dtilt?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Well part of your question has the answer in it. You should take space and do setups more. Why would you avoid it, do you like getting hit? Granted, a concern is we often have our tempo we like, or ways of moving that are preferable to us. That's fine and good. Extending into the unknown or the unfamiliar is a good way to grow ourselves and discover parts we didn't know we had, incorporating it all into the whole. So this is an opportunity to embrace, even if it does cause anxiety. Often there is anxiety before growth.

If you're pretty sure they will shield, then there's nothing wrong with grab. You'll need to be aware after that that they could be thinking of doing other things when running forward though. This is why Dtilt and Fair can be so useful, they hedge against a lot of mixed plays but can also beat the shield.

Walk or dash or jump forward more is what I immediately think when reading this. Especially if you tipper. Tipper Dtilt pushes them pretty far, and I think you might benefit from testing what happens if you dash or otherwise move forward there even if they do attack. I have found you can still dodge most of the time, and people usually realize their disadvantaged position and don't push in. Regardless of that, if you wanted to hedge your bets and just move forward a bit with walk and then Dtilt or jump back slightly, you would be quite unlikely to be punished and could still put some pressure on. So even in these concerned cases it's still best to move in. Untippered Dtilt is definitely more concerning, but that's something to be solved after the tippered Dtilt, which you should be focusing on landing anyway. Does this make sense?

 

[Kotastic]

So if I get an untippered dtilt, should I dtilt again? (And hope that they don't punish the lack of frame advantage lol) If I'm not in the position to get a tippered dtilt, should I grab or nair in place instead? Do you think it's practical to always land a tippered dtilt?

Pressure is set up if I have frame and/or positional advantage?

 

[rousd]

I haven't used smashboards in a while but I have some marth queries so hope that's ok

When watching some replays from my tournament sets I noticed there are instances where dashing away from my opponent would give them enough space for them to get in a potential punish. Examples of dashbacks that would get me punished included after I would whiff a move, avoiding an attack from my opponent or avoiding falco lasers. There are also the teeny tiny micro-interactions in neutral where dashing away gives my opponent more stage to get in a hit, which is bad for me if they have an ungodly punish game.

So I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what is the best way to to avoid doing bad dashbacks, and by extension how do I not give my opponent space to breathe in neutral? i.e. is there an optimal distance I should consider to maintain pressure while still being safe? From what I can think of crossing up my opponent seems to be a good mix up and maybe standing still sometimes (though it might be situational so maybe not the best option???)

 

[maxono1]

Dr Peepee so i was reading the mentality advice that Kotastic put together and you were talking about meditation and stuff so i have to ask:
what kind of medtation were/are you doing? just focusing on breath or something different? with which kind of meditation did you reach the flow state?

 

[Dr Peepee]

So if I get an untippered dtilt, should I dtilt again? (And hope that they don't punish the lack of frame advantage lol) If I'm not in the position to get a tippered dtilt, should I grab or nair in place instead? Do you think it's practical to always land a tippered dtilt?

Pressure is set up if I have frame and/or positional advantage?

Dash back is usually best, but WD back can be better. Depending where they go/how they react you could SH. Double Dtilt is generally not advisable if you hit a weak one first iirc, but there would be exceptions to that I'm sure. I do think landing tippered Dtilt is pretty practical a lot of the time, but you really need to know your setups well and just how far they could move in a given space. It takes practice and relaxed but intense focus.

I don't know if your next question is related to the last post or not, but I'm going to answer like it's not. Pressure is set up when you have advantage of some kind generally yes, but you can exert pressure in neutral before that. It depends on how you define it I suppose, but I find them connected by conditioning and how the positions transform and all. So if you get into a closer position by forcing them to dash back first, then that new situation creates more pressure than if you had them WD back generally since back options aren't so good against Marth.

I haven't used smashboards in a while but I have some marth queries so hope that's ok

When watching some replays from my tournament sets I noticed there are instances where dashing away from my opponent would give them enough space for them to get in a potential punish. Examples of dashbacks that would get me punished included after I would whiff a move, avoiding an attack from my opponent or avoiding falco lasers. There are also the teeny tiny micro-interactions in neutral where dashing away gives my opponent more stage to get in a hit, which is bad for me if they have an ungodly punish game.

So I guess what I'm trying to ask is, what is the best way to to avoid doing bad dashbacks, and by extension how do I not give my opponent space to breathe in neutral? i.e. is there an optimal distance I should consider to maintain pressure while still being safe? From what I can think of crossing up my opponent seems to be a good mix up and maybe standing still sometimes (though it might be situational so maybe not the best option???)

That's fine!

WD back, and dash back pivot WD back or SH, or SH back would be good additions to your game first of all. Second, you probably dash back too much, and at the same times. Many Marths dash back after doing an aerial basically every time unless they hit, which is super predictable. You could SH again, wait, walk or move forward. Marth's sword and his ability to retreat help give you breathing room on its own so you don't need to move away every time. That's probably a good starting point.

Dr Peepee so i was reading the mentality advice that Kotastic put together and you were talking about meditation and stuff so i have to ask:
what kind of medtation were/are you doing? just focusing on breath or something different? with which kind of meditation did you reach the flow state?

Focusing on my breath, and breathing in through the nose, out through the mouth. I did this for about an hour or so before I had the experience I believe, and it ended up totaling around 1.5 hours when I finished.

 

[Kotastic]

"So if you get into a closer position by forcing them to dash back first, then that new situation creates more pressure than if you had them WD back generally since back options aren't so good against Marth."

Why is dash back inferior to WD back vs Marth?

Btw, where do you get much of your mentality info? Are much of them backed up by research?

 

[RedmanSSBM]

A lot of the mentality advice and things that I have learned have come from the books that I have read.

Some of these include:

The Inner Game of Tennis - Timothy Gallwey
The Art of Learning - Josh Waitzkin
Atomic Habits - James Clear
The Six Pillars of Self Esteem - Nathaniel Branden
How to Win Friends and Influence People - Dale Carnegie

and many more. There's a lot of good books to read out there for mentality help, and these are just the ones that I have personally read.

I would say the key to using these books to improve your mindset in Melee is to not just apply what they are teaching in just Melee, but in all aspects of your life. If you learn to do it all of the time, then it will transition into Melee and help significantly there.

 

[Dr Peepee]

"So if you get into a closer position by forcing them to dash back first, then that new situation creates more pressure than if you had them WD back generally since back options aren't so good against Marth."

Why is dash back inferior to WD back vs Marth?

Btw, where do you get much of your mentality info? Are much of them backed up by research?

Again, it's not necessarily always true. If they don't have much time or react late for example, then dash back may be better at helping them dodge an attack than WD back would be. But Marth being low to the ground most Bairs struggle more to hit him for example. It's just about options out of dash back, and WD back often goes equal dash distance or farther but with better options against Marth's threats and also holding down during WD in case of being hit.

Some of it is experience, some of it is books like some of what Redman has linked. Some of it I see in various research articles that float around. Some of it comes from older philosophy such as in esoteric eastern koans for example. I find there has been plenty of overlap in various disciplines and that overlap has worked in some form for others and myself. One method or another or certain combinations may be stronger than others though, so it's important to look at as many angles as possible.

 

[Kotastic]

Does taking space create pressure? What do you think take space accomplishes, particular against opponents that doesn't immediately commit?

 

[maxono1]

Does taking space create pressure? What do you think take space accomplishes, particular against opponents that doesn't immediately commit?

obv im not pp but let me try to answer your question.
it does not create pressure directly or in every situation but it definitely does it more the closer the opponent gets to the corner.
if you do it in response to them giving up space you "push" them towards the corner because they cant freely move back to were they were the moment before because suddenly you and your big moves are there.
i think its especially effective against people who dont want to commit because once they are in the corner they are forced to commit to an option otherwise you can hit them easily(or at least easier than when they are in center stage)

also i dont wanna accuse you of anything but it feels to me (after lurking here for quite a while) like you're relying a bit too much on pp answering any questions that come up in your mind, rather than trying to find an answer yourself through experimentation or whatever.
i recognize this from my time in school in the maths advaced or intensive course(idk what its called in english) where i lost motivation/confidence in myself to tackle the problems and ended up relying on my friend most of the time and as a result the things that i relied on my friend for evaded me under pressure in comparison to the things i found out myself i could remember easily because i understood the process better or maybe because the knowledge was more personal.
what im trying to say is that when you get stuck dont just seek the easy way out, sometimes the brain takes a little while to work out complex things even when you're not directly thinking about it.

 

[Kotastic]

I asked this question because it seems more abstract than it seems. Your response is what i thought on paper, but it seems to have more nuance upon further theorycrafting and testing. Not saying you're wrong, but there might be more than it seems.

I disagree with your assessment overall, as for one my improvement has been very good especially the last few months. What I ask pp are mostly questions I can't confidently resolve with my current resources, and even then many questions that pop in my head frequently don't make it to him. If you have been actually lurking, you would know that compared to last year my frequency of asking questions is quite lower. Im primarily using pp to clear some concepts/definitions/direction I feel are very important to answer, which I personally don't find anything wrong with.

On the contrary, I don't think many of you ask questions enough.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Does taking space create pressure? What do you think take space accomplishes, particular against opponents that doesn't immediately commit?

Yes, because it forces the opponent to act. Or I should say this forcing can be pressure, but might not be perceived as such. Anyway the forcing comes from you being inside a range they can no longer react to and thus must guess what happens next. Now suppose they move back from there and you press forward, that is what you're asking about. This creates pressure because you have forced the same situation, told them their answer to it at first may not be adequate(you did not get counterattacked at least) and they must decide again as you're within reaction range again. Longer term, if you can win here, it encourages them to not always move back when you move in initially, which leads to quicker interactions and increased pressure on them to stay mixed up. They may not know approaching as well as defending, which places additional strain. Etc

 

[maxono1]

I asked this question because it seems more abstract than it seems. Your response is what i thought on paper, but it seems to have more nuance upon further theorycrafting and testing. Not saying you're wrong, but there might be more than it seems.

I disagree with your assessment overall, as for one my improvement has been very good especially the last few months. What I ask pp are mostly questions I can't confidently resolve with my current resources, and even then many questions that pop in my head frequently don't make it to him. If you have been actually lurking, you would know that compared to last year my frequency of asking questions is quite lower. Im primarily using pp to clear some concepts/definitions/direction I feel are very important to answer, which I personally don't find anything wrong with.

On the contrary, I don't think many of you ask questions enough.

yeah after reading pps answer there is definitely more to it than what i wrote.

i think i didnt word it properly or as good as i could have but i didnt want to discourage you or anyone asking questions rather i wanted to warn you of a potential pitfall that i fell into in the past and was worried you might fall into too because i related to/identified with many things you posted here about mentality, anxiety etc.
i also dont think you could call my post an assessment at all, in hindsight it didnt really have any concrete evidence as youve said and wasnt that thoughtfully put together.

you have convinced me that youre sharp enough to not fall into such traps, also i already thought that a bit even before your post but my concern/worry overshadowed that.

i agree that many people dont ask enough questions because of the fear of looking stupid, realizing that they know very little or at least a lot less than they thought or they dont want to leave their comfort zone in general.
but my problem right now is that i underestimate the range of common attacks in the neutral, like peach or sheik dash attack and therefore get hit for free, so i feel that there is not much to ask about that, i just have to space a little bit farther away and practice whiff punishing them in 20xx.

do you also ask questions about things where you feel like you know the answer already?

 

[Kotastic]

It's more like, I think Melee very open-ended and abstract compared to other established subjects in school such as math. Most math subjects have a clear path on how to solve problems, whereas very often in Melee you don't necessarily "solve" things and you're mostly left on your own. This is why I often ask questions, even when I have an idea of an answer.

For school, you already have established guidance and answers, it's really the matter of grinding and (often) learning what they want you to learn. Melee, you can't just "grind" the same way as school because of the open-endedness of it I described and lack of guidance given. This is why I get frustrated of some people I know plateauing in Melee, because I know they're smart individuals but they think of Melee too narrow-mindedly (such as "oh I should always do this option" as their takeaway). This is why I don't think enough people ask questions for this game.

As for mentality, I didn't know at all back then you could even change/grow your mentality, so I asked PP a lot of questions for resources as well as other avenues because back then my mentality was pretty self-deprecating.

I could understand why it might be interpreted of being "dependent," but I used many of the answers I've gotten more like expanding my knowledge of the game so I can critically apply it later. It's a balance I suppose.

 

[maxono1]

It's more like, I think Melee very open-ended and abstract compared to other established subjects in school such as math. Most math subjects have a clear path on how to solve problems, whereas very often in Melee you don't necessarily "solve" things and you're mostly left on your own. This is why I often ask questions, even when I have an idea of an answer.

For school, you already have established guidance and answers, it's really the matter of grinding and (often) learning what they want you to learn. Melee, you can't just "grind" the same way as school because of the open-endedness of it I described and lack of guidance given. This is why I get frustrated of some people I know plateauing in Melee, because I know they're smart individuals but they think of Melee too narrow-mindedly (such as "oh I should always do this option" as their takeaway). This is why I don't think enough people ask questions for this game.

As for mentality, I didn't know at all back then you could even change/grow your mentality, so I asked PP a lot of questions for resources as well as other avenues because back then my mentality was pretty self-deprecating.

I could understand why it might be interpreted of being "dependent," but I used many of the answers I've gotten more like expanding my knowledge of the game so I can critically apply it later. It's a balance I suppose.

so you mean instead of just going down one paved way its more like expanding a world in your head? i think i get what you mean
i agree that many people think of melee too narrow mindedly also like "do this less and do that more" which ignores a lot of nuance of decision making

Dr Peepee i have some mentality questions for you
as ive been getting better i find myself getting more and more focused on and attached to immediate results rather than being growth oriented, catching myself thinking like "that was my 4 stock"(it was on netplay his last stock and i was comboing him and it lagged so i dropped my combo), in the uncle punch training mode i subconciously look at the counter that shows how many times you did a certain tech in a row and many similar things in that nature.
do you think that some result oriented thinking is ok as long as you dont lose sight of your long term goals or the things you are working on?
how much do you care about rankings, set counts or stock counts? or how much did you care when you were on the come-up?
what kind of thoughts go through your head before/after a practice session and between games, sets at a tournament or before going onstage and how much did meditation change that?
im sorry if these questions have been asked before i must admit i didnt look into the mentality stuff that kotastic compiled too deeply yet

 

[Dr Peepee]

Results-oriented thinking is in a way inevitable. We can't help but notice what happens in front of us. The main issue is the meaning we give it. If we overall grow in stock counts vs opponents we struggled beating before, then we could say that helps us track our longer term growth. That's how results should be used: to concretely track growth. People often use results eventually for something else, and that is to confirm they are still where they thought there were. But you're generally either growing or dying as a player, so when you get into that preservation mode it weakens your abilities. Returning to growth is how you use results for good again.

When I was on the come up, I cared about those things intensely. Every single match was life and death. Every ranking I wasn't acknowledged well on, or as well as I thought on, made me angry or miserable or both. Now I don't care as much about them but use them as information in the way I described before. I find I can still play well this way too, without retaining tension and learning/remembering more as a result.

Before a practice session I think of the opponent's character and maybe style and what I need to practice/refine against those things, and afterward I ask how I did. If it's tournament, then I try to think of those things too but in a way that applies the training knowledge and trust myself to do the work. I fire myself up as much as I can for good Melee. Meditation helps me clear my head of doubt and also give me that directed focus that my status would otherwise cloud from nerves.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

I have been struggling to understand how I can tap more easily into the "wanting to win" mentality when I am playing in tournament. So far I have entered 2 local tournaments. A big one on Sunday and a small weekly last night. At both of these tournaments, I went in with the goal to keep myself calm and to have my mentality be at peace, without getting salty or overly-emotionally invested into the game.

While I was very much successful with being okay with losing at both tournaments, I never expressed the "want to win" mentality that I believe can make me a strong competitor. I've been able to practice trying to achieve this mindset when I play ranked netplay, but it's usually the result of something triggering it, like anger about something in the game. That anger then turns into motivation if I think about it the right way and then I play much better because I've truly tapped into that "wanting to win" mentality.

My question is: How can I tap into this "wanting to win" mentality more often, especially at will? This seems to be the thing I struggle with the most at the moment because although I believe having this calm mindset when playing is healthy for me, it also doesn't feel like I'm really trying to push myself mentally. I'm just falling back into a comfort zone. It feels like I become complacent and I don't think that's something I want to go towards.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Part of your issue seems like you are restraining yourself to be calm. Then when you get mad the restraint leaves and you are yourself. The idea would be to get the restraint to leave but you still care, whether you feel very emotional or less so. It's important not to hold back.

 

[Kotastic]

When approaching someone threatening with a dtilt and they jump in response, at what point do you discern that they would, say shield in response to the rising fair so you get shield grabbed?

https://youtu.be/c7K6Mcni640?t=933
Why opt for dash dance so much? At what point do you discern to pivot grab instead of rising fair/nair?

It seems one key escapes characters with decent fall speed do to escape marth juggles is to DJ --> FF aerial down as a response to marth trying to shark. An example of how Axe seems to avoid many juggles: https://youtu.be/i44IkXF81FA?t=737
How would you remedy this?

If you think rc dtilt should be used as a threat move, why use rc dtilt over rc fsmash? I think fsmash does a better job conveying threat than dtilt.

If you feel like answering, how do you feel about G6 plays?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Your first question is confusing. I'm guessing you mean when can I guess when they might jump vs shield. Sometimes people will react early when they expect you to come in and act in advance, and sometimes they react late because of their own setup or diminished reactions or some other reason. The later reactions can be divided into other categories, but I'm just going to say that it's USUALLY at the point at which they MUST make a decision that they will make one. As you have initiated the situation, you often have advantage to see what it is since they want to beat various timings and perhaps multiple options. So basically it would be a bit before you can initiate the action, and weaker players or those you have conditioned well etc will act earlier, giving you a realistic reaction when they feel they don't have one.

My movement wasn't incredibly intentional here. I appeared to be playing too far away, which I notice was a particular problem for me around this time with both characters. This would mean I'm likely looking to counter approaching options. As such, I certainly would have been slow and just pressing in to maintain position vs the Bairs, which are hard to punish. The spacing matters here a lot in other words.

It's a bit of a different situation here because the Uair whiffed, so you have less time to set up possible counters. This particular one could be solved by dropping through the platform then rising with Fair/Uair if Axe did what he did here and resetting the situation. I think getting to one side and hitting Pikachu with Fair is best, or getting high early and hitting the Dair startup with Uair. I haven't tested other possibilities, but worst case you could just shield grab and reset for damage and a more favorable position/opponent play sometimes.

Fsmash is not necessarily better than Dtilt. Fsmash is slower and laggier, meaning all you have to do is dodge it and you punish harder, and this dodge is in some ways easier due to the startup lag. The arc is more useful, but only if people SH to dodge, not FH/DJ and that's without considering other options like moving away which would be easier than vs Dtilt. Anyway, in my experience people usually dodge both if they can dodge Dtilt. If they jump over Dtilt then they must do so quickly to avoid IASA shielding or dash back to hit you, and if they're going to shield then you may weak Fsmash which is punishable, and if they move away they will be much more likely to counterhit. That said, in some matchups and some positions you can Fsmash over Dtilt, but I find I have to run farther or wait a bit longer for them to swing back in as if they were to punish Dtilt, which makes it not truly an Fsmash vs Dtilt mixup but a play on Dtilt.

Didn't see a lot of deeper bracket last night, but it was rough in some ways I expected but strange in others. I think IBDW has a lot of good ideas but needs refining.

 

[quixotic]

Why do you go for land into tech chase here instead of doing the fair option coverage?

https://youtu.be/3crBUgCcp3w?t=532

 

[Kotastic]

I feel like especially in ranges where it looks like I would go for rc dtilt, I have to go for a read for their jump (immediate rising fair/nair, fsmash) in response to my rc dtilt if I want the juiciest punish opportunity or else I miss my chance. I've tried doing it by reaction for example with Sheik's jump fair, but it would usually not pan out as then I'd get my fair out too late and they're already grounded. And as I said, their counterplay could be just shield, so I'm wondering if catching their jump is a read or reaction. Though, you seem to imply it's a primed reaction I should look out for, so maybe I should try again with the reaction.

With that Axe situation, it's a rather common situation I see where I think it's a mixup between just falling aerial (in which many Marths default to just cover with a sharking upair Zain did) or DJ FF falling aerial to counter that sharking. Are you suggesting that going to the top platform --> shield or dash aerial would cover both options well? What if the first option I suggested of just falling aerial hits before Marth gets to the top platform?

Also, do you think Marth wins on YS against Sheik/Peach? If so, do you think it's better than CP'ing to PS or you think it's style preference?

 

[Agrathor3]

So I want to start teching the ledge and smash DIing fox up throw uair combos and I kind of get how the concept works but there are things like asdi and how smash di inputs actually work that I don't fully understand can anyone explain all the types of di or is it possible to get a link to a post or whatever that fully explains how all the different kinds of di work?

 

[AirFair]

my take on that situation vs Axe is that I would fh after the utilt, and you can cover his falling aerial with that with a uair/fair. If he dj's I can dj wl onto the platform and then utilt or rising uair/fair. I feel like that could work pretty well.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Why do you go for land into tech chase here instead of doing the fair option coverage?

https://youtu.be/3crBUgCcp3w?t=532

I learned it from watching Falcon players. You jump to make them not want to do a tech in place/miss tech and then they have the laggy tech roll you can punish. I could have probably reacted better and still done an aerial out of jump or landed and attacked another way, but this was overall fine.

I feel like especially in ranges where it looks like I would go for rc dtilt, I have to go for a read for their jump (immediate rising fair/nair, fsmash) in response to my rc dtilt if I want the juiciest punish opportunity or else I miss my chance. I've tried doing it by reaction for example with Sheik's jump fair, but it would usually not pan out as then I'd get my fair out too late and they're already grounded. And as I said, their counterplay could be just shield, so I'm wondering if catching their jump is a read or reaction. Though, you seem to imply it's a primed reaction I should look out for, so maybe I should try again with the reaction.

With that Axe situation, it's a rather common situation I see where I think it's a mixup between just falling aerial (in which many Marths default to just cover with a sharking upair Zain did) or DJ FF falling aerial to counter that sharking. Are you suggesting that going to the top platform --> shield or dash aerial would cover both options well? What if the first option I suggested of just falling aerial hits before Marth gets to the top platform?

Also, do you think Marth wins on YS against Sheik/Peach? If so, do you think it's better than CP'ing to PS or you think it's style preference?

Yes, it should be relatively primed. I think you should practice neutral-only with someone and get the timing and mixup down, perhaps after practicing or guessing the reaction point during shadowboxing/practice.

The DJ Uair Zain did was terribly telegraphed. It was obvious Axe would jump, especially since Zain probably wasn't juggling well. But even so, you could land and shield or dash on reasonable reaction since Dair is slow to start up and what you're doing to get on the platform isn't technically demanding. If the falling aerial does hit Marth, then it's because the percent etc have changed. You can then FH and decide what to do as you rise, sometimes into early DJ. They will act early because they have to, especially with a slow move like Pika Dair.

I think Marth definitely wins on YS against Peach. Likely against Sheik too, but you have to swing more and move less, and losing by any small margin is worse for you here than on FoD. I think vs Peach it could be better, especially if you can't edgeguard or juggle well. Vs Sheik I would guess PS is better, but I could see preference playing into both.

So I want to start teching the ledge and smash DIing fox up throw uair combos and I kind of get how the concept works but there are things like asdi and how smash di inputs actually work that I don't fully understand can anyone explain all the types of di or is it possible to get a link to a post or whatever that fully explains how all the different kinds of di work?

Kadano has a youtube video about DI and teching: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZkdPVUlrSOo I would imagine that as well as a couple of his other videos can give you what you want and more.

 

[Kotastic]

How can I safely exert pressure vs Falcon? I find in order to avoid immediate attacks and give myself some security vs. their back dash near the corner, I like doing a dash/walk forward --> WD back to see my pressure effects. I can't safely do that vs Falcon because of the possibility of his run up nair, which can lead to a lot for Falcon. Suggestions?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I prefer mainly doing dashes vs Falcon, unless you WD fully and a bit farther away. Holding down vs Falcon Nair isn't so bad though, and sometimes you can side B between the hits. I like doing a dash forward and letting it stall, or at least going longer before moving back. I tend to prefer doing that or running up and Nair'ing/Fair'ing into him if I think I can at least hit his shield, but it depends on the Falcon and your conditioning and how close he is to the edge, etc.

 

[StrawHatter]

I'm not sure if I'm on the right track or not, but when Falcon and I are dash dancing each other, both of us under the platforms of Battlefield for example, what's the best plan to win neutral and get the advantage? I'm mainly scared mostly of Falcon's nair approach with his dash momentum to cover tons of space and pressure me since I'm scared of his punish game on me if he gets a solid opening. What are my options to counter this? I'm not sure if I can fair/nair/uptilt/sideb/dash under it on reaction to it, but I could be wrong.

Would you also say learning how to tech chase Falcon is necessary for the early percent punish game?

Thanks for any advice anyone can give me.

 

[maxono1]

I'm not sure if I'm on the right track or not, but when Falcon and I are dash dancing each other, both of us under the platforms of Battlefield for example, what's the best plan to win neutral and get the advantage? I'm mainly scared mostly of Falcon's nair approach with his dash momentum to cover tons of space and pressure me since I'm scared of his punish game on me if he gets a solid opening. What are my options to counter this? I'm not sure if I can fair/nair/uptilt/sideb/dash under it on reaction to it, but I could be wrong.

Would you also say learning how to tech chase Falcon is necessary for the early percent punish game?

Thanks for any advice anyone can give me.

yeah falcon punish game is scary
the full momentum nair is actually pretty slow and telegraphed. in my experience its possible to shut those down on reaction if you can pivot or shield stop/pivot fair/nair quickly out of dash back.
the strength of falcons nair is not the speed but the range that it covers so u cant run away and pivot grab u gotta interrupt it

i would recommend learning it.
his spotdodge and roll is slow the best he can get is buffer jump away (which is impossible to sh with in my experience) or jabs which you can cc
also there isnt really any other reliable way to get dmg on him at very low%

 

[maxono1]

Dr Peepee i got a zoning question.
my fox practice partner says that when i do nair in place in center stage he just ignores it and waits for me to come in after instead of challenging it directly.
is that what you mean with the opponent respecting marths space?
also for the situation after nair i commonly do wd or rc dtilt at him (he dashdances under the side platform) which he responds to with drift forward drill and beats me most of the time. so when he does the same drill and i try to beat it with a run forward rising fair he hits me out of it before it comes out.
should i try to do the fair earlier or should i shield stop so i dont drift inside of fox or something else entirely?
one last question with studying postions you mean studying specific situations?

 

[Dr Peepee]

I'm not sure if I'm on the right track or not, but when Falcon and I are dash dancing each other, both of us under the platforms of Battlefield for example, what's the best plan to win neutral and get the advantage? I'm mainly scared mostly of Falcon's nair approach with his dash momentum to cover tons of space and pressure me since I'm scared of his punish game on me if he gets a solid opening. What are my options to counter this? I'm not sure if I can fair/nair/uptilt/sideb/dash under it on reaction to it, but I could be wrong.

Would you also say learning how to tech chase Falcon is necessary for the early percent punish game?

Thanks for any advice anyone can give me.

You can do all of those things, although out of DD Utilt would be pretty hard lol. You can also hold down against it and grab or Dtilt I suppose, which can help if you don't think you can get a side B out fast enough(which is quite fast). I think you may need to grind the reaction at various spacings in 20XX.

Tech chasing Falcon is very important for early percent punish game. If you can't do that well, then you'll need to catch him out of the air with Fair to juggle and kill him, or otherwise do things like land Utilt into that or Fsmash into early edgeguard, etc. Tech chase is more reliable overall I believe.

Dr Peepee i got a zoning question.
my fox practice partner says that when i do nair in place in center stage he just ignores it and waits for me to come in after instead of challenging it directly.
is that what you mean with the opponent respecting marths space?
also for the situation after nair i commonly do wd or rc dtilt at him (he dashdances under the side platform) which he responds to with drift forward drill and beats me most of the time. so when he does the same drill and i try to beat it with a run forward rising fair he hits me out of it before it comes out.
should i try to do the fair earlier or should i shield stop so i dont drift inside of fox or something else entirely?
one last question with studying postions you mean studying specific situations?

Yes that is what I mean in large part.

And yeah Fair'ing earlier is good, or SH'ing earlier after dashing in then Fair'ing on reaction as he comes in, whatever you want to do. You could also do a dash in that stalls out and then dash back and pivot grab or something depending on spacing and such.

 

[AirFair]

I have some questions about fox, and about edgeguarding spacies

In neutral, when fox runs at me coming forward, and I move away and he shields, what can I do to pressure him for putting his shield up? I can try spacing aerials but I often get punished for pivot fairing his shield and misspacing it, so he gets an usmash oos, or at worst I can't really punish it. It's usually done before he gets right on my back, so it's too far for me to pivot grab. I've thought of trying to read it and run in grab way earlier, but I feel like I could get tricked by him and that it's super risky.

In this situation when marth gets onto the corner: https://youtu.be/OJJtWbBJxdw?t=932
What could Zain have done differently here? Stuff like this is why I'm not as confident about using aerials when getting out of the corner. Even when I do sh fairs or ac nairs like Zain does in these situations, I feel like fox can just wait and then punish me really hard for them, but since he's so close I need to do something so I'm not getting instantly hit and sent back offstage.

When edgeguarding fox and falco from farther out, how much success have you had with jumping out to fair the way Zain does where he tries to get to their up b startup? I've tried to do that a lot more recently and I've had mixed results with it. While I have been able to confirm kills doing it, it's also gotten me killed just as many times, for missing/clanking with side b, not being able to reach their up b in time for them to go over/under me, or even me hitting them, but them immediately side b'ing to ledge right after. I probably need to be doing it when they are at higher percents, and when I have enough time to set up for it.

This weekend I got to play with Fiction since he came to TX, and something he said to me was that I was using counter too much when he would recover below the ledge, even when I felt like I didn't have enough time to set up something different. One example that I think shows what I'm talking about is this: https://youtu.be/OJJtWbBJxdw?t=1069
After hitting the first jabs, Zain runs off since he wants to upb and kill fox, which makes perfect sense to me, but Fiction drops super low to sweetspot instead, and Zain is able to use counter, which could have easily not worked. I feel like Zain made a good choice to look for that upb after hitting the jabs, but in turn wasn't able to get a guaranteed cover for the sweetspot attempt, since he could have been punished had fiction avoided counter. After the second jabs too I feel like Zain had very little time to cover fiction's up b. I think he could try and grab ledge let go fair, but idk if I would get that in time, and if I did, what I would do if fiction teched that.

When we talked about this, Fiction told me to just fsmash lol