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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
It's just doing an airdodge that is partly in the air and partly on the ground. In Melee terms, anyway.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
I think I'm better understanding that Marth's rc dtilt range is used to communicate threats if I'm doing long enough dashes to mixup as dtilt or dash back.
What would be the mixup at closer range where my dashes are shorter? Would WD's be better advised, or try to connect something with the short dashes with grab/rising fair with the mixup being dash back?
What would be the mixup at closer range where my dashes are shorter? Would WD's be better advised, or try to connect something with the short dashes with grab/rising fair with the mixup being dash back?
Closer you either walk Dtilt, or you if you're running you use more running and Fair/Nair and grab as you said. Dtilt extends your dash threat range, so if you're not able to extend it you don't need it so much. Invalidating with Fair is often fine, and people complained about it in the past for a good reason I believe. Your spacing on jumping can change, where you could go a bit into them or just perfectly spaced, or even spaced a bit away from them to keep them out and also catch attempts to cut off your approach. That can be mixed with SH/dash/WD back and waiting and such.
People complain about AP's Fox but I like that he takes his time and uses slower DDs to focus and also has some set plays which work out for him.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
"Invalidating with Fair is often fine, and people complained about it in the past for a good reason I believe."
In what context is this appropriate and the mixup for that situation? Do you mean late fair or rising fair?
When do you feel like you need to jump out of dd? Do you mean jump in place?
In what context is this appropriate and the mixup for that situation? Do you mean late fair or rising fair?
When do you feel like you need to jump out of dd? Do you mean jump in place?
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Late Fair would certainly be safer regarding holding down(percent-dependent anyway), but beyond that it's just about timing and probabilities. Sometimes you need early Fair if you suspect a rushdown at a closer range and/or a shield. Drift can sometimes give you that extra moment to discern what they're doing and choose one or the other, or a mid Fair.
You can jump forward or backward any amount and drift and FF any amount. Marth's reasonably low weight and decent drift make for some great mixups here that, say, Fox wouldn't have out of SH.
I can't say with so many words when Fair is perfectly good, but generally if you can space it, or they don't react well to it, if it beats their option, if their percent warrants it, when you set yourself up for it....I guess those would be some conditions upon which you could Fair.
You can jump forward or backward any amount and drift and FF any amount. Marth's reasonably low weight and decent drift make for some great mixups here that, say, Fox wouldn't have out of SH.
I can't say with so many words when Fair is perfectly good, but generally if you can space it, or they don't react well to it, if it beats their option, if their percent warrants it, when you set yourself up for it....I guess those would be some conditions upon which you could Fair.
Zorcey
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 12, 2015
- Messages
- 371
I’m wondering how to develop more sophisticated intention, I think I’m too... honest, in a sense. I feel very underdeveloped at conditioning using my threats out of DD, at the ability to make the opponent believe I’m going for one option when I have another in mind, or make them unable to discern what I have in mind (or to combine these together and make them second guess themselves).
With a movement like Marth’s run, I feel it’d be more difficult to have “tricky” intention, because of his limited options out of it, but his dashes and even WDs have so much potential for associations that you could then undermine (or not). But alternatively, you could just make yourself super difficult to follow instead of leading your opponent on. The first of these two ideas sounds like it could easily lead into the trap of excessive movement, which I want to avoid, but it’s also a sick concept I’d really like to cultivate.
What’s your opinion concerning how these ideas should be worked into Marth’s DD and when? They don’t seem mutually exclusive, I can certainly see there are times you want to lead and others where you want to be unclear.
With a movement like Marth’s run, I feel it’d be more difficult to have “tricky” intention, because of his limited options out of it, but his dashes and even WDs have so much potential for associations that you could then undermine (or not). But alternatively, you could just make yourself super difficult to follow instead of leading your opponent on. The first of these two ideas sounds like it could easily lead into the trap of excessive movement, which I want to avoid, but it’s also a sick concept I’d really like to cultivate.
What’s your opinion concerning how these ideas should be worked into Marth’s DD and when? They don’t seem mutually exclusive, I can certainly see there are times you want to lead and others where you want to be unclear.
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Well, in my view you are usually leading or following, so it's hard to escape from that. Sometimes you just do it more or less consciously. As for when you should lead or vs deceive, they are also related. You make the opponent's eyes, or their mind, pick something you will do based on what you're doing/what they're doing, and when you deviate too far from that or too far from what they know, they will be unable to follow for some time. So it becomes about studying positions, developing understanding of tools, and practicing them and their mixups well. I'm not sure what else to say about this.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
PP, what cues in general do you look out for to react to a WD?
If someone likes attacking OoS a lot, is spacing rising fair/nair or dashing back better.
If someone likes attacking OoS a lot, is spacing rising fair/nair or dashing back better.
Reyjavik
Smash Apprentice
I played against him in tournament back in May, I can at least say he didn't 8 stock me bc he sded once lol.
On more important note: I finally broke through against the gatekeeper of my (small) scene. He's been playing for years and while I've beaten his other side characters, I hadn't been able to beat his Puff before. However I finally understand how awful the cold is for playing (johns aside haha). Definitely wasn't helping gameplay but really showed how fragile my mentality is when stuff doesn't go right in execution for me
Usually I'm looking for movement backward, but a shield or a jump are important as well.
Assuming you mean aerial'ing OOS, then spacing is usually good. I feel like more goes into it than this such as character and percent and spacing at the time of decision and conditioning etc, but my instinct with these things removed is spacing.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Was writing in my blog about some mentality stuff when it comes to tournaments and I thought I would share this segment here:
I'm going to list out some of the things I enjoy about Melee in a competitive setting for the sake of it:
I have a hard time grasping that entering tournaments can mean that I am challenging myself and whatever obstacles come my way. I feel like to me, in a 1v1 context, the competition is very much socially ingrained. It's very hard for me to overcome the fact that the person controlling the character I am fighting is another person whom I might empathize with or despise. When I'm playing friendlies and I'm learning about the game, it feels like I'm doing it for myself to learn more about the game. Learning is very fun for me. But when I'm competing, it isn't about learning anymore. Part of me almost believes that I should try to adapt the same feeling of "wanting to learn" from friendlies and practice into tournament matches and just treat them the same as any other game. No mental pressure to be had on myself and no existential crisis when things don't go as planned.
What does this mean for my goals in Melee? Before, I wanted to be the best Marth in my state. That goal is easily visualized and easily measurable based on how I do in tournaments. But if learning -- not winning -- is what brings me the most enjoyment in Melee, then what goal would I set for that? Being the most knowledgeable person about Marth? That hardly seems measurable to me. I'm just honestly unsure.
Part of me still feels like I should just compete for the sake of it but it really seems hard to gauge that at the moment. I will likely revisit this topic in the future.
I'm going to list out some of the things I enjoy about Melee in a competitive setting for the sake of it:
- Learning about the game through labbing
- Learning about the game through solo practice
- Learning about the game through vod analysis
- Executing the gameplan that I had planned ahead of time
- Completing edgeguards with Marth
- Getting into that state of flow where the game feels fast and I'm playing fast
- Applying what I have learned in my own play
- Finishing a combo on my opponent
- Receiving advice
- Giving advice
I have a hard time grasping that entering tournaments can mean that I am challenging myself and whatever obstacles come my way. I feel like to me, in a 1v1 context, the competition is very much socially ingrained. It's very hard for me to overcome the fact that the person controlling the character I am fighting is another person whom I might empathize with or despise. When I'm playing friendlies and I'm learning about the game, it feels like I'm doing it for myself to learn more about the game. Learning is very fun for me. But when I'm competing, it isn't about learning anymore. Part of me almost believes that I should try to adapt the same feeling of "wanting to learn" from friendlies and practice into tournament matches and just treat them the same as any other game. No mental pressure to be had on myself and no existential crisis when things don't go as planned.
What does this mean for my goals in Melee? Before, I wanted to be the best Marth in my state. That goal is easily visualized and easily measurable based on how I do in tournaments. But if learning -- not winning -- is what brings me the most enjoyment in Melee, then what goal would I set for that? Being the most knowledgeable person about Marth? That hardly seems measurable to me. I'm just honestly unsure.
Part of me still feels like I should just compete for the sake of it but it really seems hard to gauge that at the moment. I will likely revisit this topic in the future.
Learning how to compete could be a goal if you desired. Truly, if you don't know how to play with pressure, or don't play others who do, then you could benefit from competing. Having clarity and fun while under increasing pressure not only brings out deeper self-knowledge, but also brings up more knowledge from others, I've found.
Being most knowledgeable could perhaps be measured by the opinions of others, or by comparing yourself to the next closest Marth as you communicate by dividing the game into things like frame data/minutia, neutral, combos, tech chases, etc.
Anyway, people play for a variety of reasons. Encountering a block is certainly a means for searching.
Being most knowledgeable could perhaps be measured by the opinions of others, or by comparing yourself to the next closest Marth as you communicate by dividing the game into things like frame data/minutia, neutral, combos, tech chases, etc.
Anyway, people play for a variety of reasons. Encountering a block is certainly a means for searching.
Reyjavik
Smash Apprentice
I've been more proactive in watching film and have been reading lots of posts on the internet of how to breakdown the game. One good post I randomly came across showed how PP and Mango played. It may have been lost on me a couple of months ago but it helped me realize how bad oos I am. I am sure most of you already know this but I only found out the other day you can buffer a jump with cstick... so I might start using that to WDOOS since I already get my timings a bit off every now and then with shield stun. This is important as while I'm not repeating the same action over and over again, I also want more control with Marth rather than panic rolling or misinputting WDOOS as roll.
Hardest thing I've noticed though is simply me moving forward in neutral, its one of the biggest holes I've now seen after we all discussed it here but seeing when I'm actively trying to fade back or aerial in place versus forward is like night and day now.
What are your guys's tips to help me break through this exceptionally bad habit? I can practice training myself with aerials by myself, but in game I'm struggling at times not to move forward.
Hardest thing I've noticed though is simply me moving forward in neutral, its one of the biggest holes I've now seen after we all discussed it here but seeing when I'm actively trying to fade back or aerial in place versus forward is like night and day now.
What are your guys's tips to help me break through this exceptionally bad habit? I can practice training myself with aerials by myself, but in game I'm struggling at times not to move forward.
I think tunnel-visioning on a simple thing like doing just ONE specific movement that you want, and getting it down in matches, is a good way to ensure you do it. Otherwise you overwhelm yourself.
Reyjavik
Smash Apprentice
So right now here is my understanding of Marth's fundamental neutral game (anyone feel free to dissect or correct me):
To actually approach and take space I use dtilt to stop grounded movement and I use grab to push away from center into punish game. To defend/punish attacks that don't respect Marth's threats, I'm using in place or faded aerials to catch the enemy's offensive approach. Fair is used to quickly zone out attacks coming from in the air or out of dash, while nair is used for delayed hits on the ground from dash but it is effective to adjust fastfall speed when using it. Fsmash should only be used in hitstun or when opponent is above/in air.
That's my current understanding of how to play Marth Neutral. I'm working hard on focusing only on in place or faded aerials and I feel a lot better with the game and lot more confident. One thing I'm having hard time with is simply CC as while marth's dash is great and long, I fee its harder to CC out of it so you really have to commit to doing it rather than spacies who have short dash lengths but can crouch out of dash faster
To actually approach and take space I use dtilt to stop grounded movement and I use grab to push away from center into punish game. To defend/punish attacks that don't respect Marth's threats, I'm using in place or faded aerials to catch the enemy's offensive approach. Fair is used to quickly zone out attacks coming from in the air or out of dash, while nair is used for delayed hits on the ground from dash but it is effective to adjust fastfall speed when using it. Fsmash should only be used in hitstun or when opponent is above/in air.
That's my current understanding of how to play Marth Neutral. I'm working hard on focusing only on in place or faded aerials and I feel a lot better with the game and lot more confident. One thing I'm having hard time with is simply CC as while marth's dash is great and long, I fee its harder to CC out of it so you really have to commit to doing it rather than spacies who have short dash lengths but can crouch out of dash faster
You could hold down the C stick while dashing as some recommend, or you could WD/aerial more often as those give you obvious hold down points.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
How would you recommend dealing with Marth's DA/Fsmash when he's already close range, meaning dash back isn't an option?
I often feel like I make myself predictable in the close quarters of the mirror because of the fear of those two moves, so often I'm not sure how to free up the tension in my mind.
I often feel like I make myself predictable in the close quarters of the mirror because of the fear of those two moves, so often I'm not sure how to free up the tension in my mind.
DA and Fsmash aren't exactly the same range, so do you mean inside of Fsmash range, where you would get hit dashing back vs either? If you could describe the space a little better it may help.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
I mean WD fsmash, and yes I would get hit by dash back vs either. Either way, both of those moves still stress me out a lot.
I still am unsure of the space you are at then. I'm guessing it's around tipper Fsmash range. If so, I like Dtilt here to ward them off, (dash)WD away to get away, getting an aerial out first or otherwise attacking with your own Fsmash/DA first I suppose lol. Oh right, I always forget about this because I never do it, but shield. You can shield on reaction to both of these things, and if you suspect you will be DA'd you can hold down at lower percents(and tech in some form at mid percents I imagine).
The main thing is if they're swinging with this stuff then you're either waiting too long, moving back when they come in so they have to take big swings, or they just like to lunge. You just need to act more pre-emptively or attack first more without overcomplicating to reduce that threat. And shield, probably.
The main thing is if they're swinging with this stuff then you're either waiting too long, moving back when they come in so they have to take big swings, or they just like to lunge. You just need to act more pre-emptively or attack first more without overcomplicating to reduce that threat. And shield, probably.
rousd
Smash Rookie
Anyone have any tips for maintaining composure during an intense set?? I was playing a tournament set against someone of a higher skill level than me in a Bo3. I was able to clutch game 2 but by game 3 I was so high on adrenaline that I was making dumb plays like desperate dash attacks and shielding too much. Other than going to more tournaments, is there anything I can do to getting used to staying composed vs someone of an equal/higher skill level?
Also I've noticed in my replays I'll sometimes tend to push myself towards the edge of the stage (not sure if I do this unconsciously or not). Are there any particular areas of the stage I should move to or around to prevent losing stage control, particularly when my opponent is on the angel platform and when they have invincibility? I'm thinking maybe moving around the platforms might be a good idea, or would it be better to stay on the ground?
Also I've noticed in my replays I'll sometimes tend to push myself towards the edge of the stage (not sure if I do this unconsciously or not). Are there any particular areas of the stage I should move to or around to prevent losing stage control, particularly when my opponent is on the angel platform and when they have invincibility? I'm thinking maybe moving around the platforms might be a good idea, or would it be better to stay on the ground?
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i would like some tips on the composure thing too.
at my last tournament in pools i did a high percent comeback and after that i felt like i was going to die like really die irl. luckily it was best of 3 if it was best of 5 i think i would not have been able to play at all. i felt better after like taking a break for 10 mins but i dont think thats realistic in a set.
a tip i would have for the invincibility is to stay in center or under the other guy and then react to him falling down and dash either left or right. it works for example against samus ff missile (maybe falco laser) because then it flies in the other direction if you get the read.
if there are no projectiles and they follow you you can cross them up (into center stage) at different timings for example immediately when you see them dash after you or maybe wait until youre under the side platform or you dont cross up at all and youre at the edge like it is in your scenario but its better because they are looking for a cross up and maybe out of position then (like farther away then they would be if they knew youre in the corner).
against fastfallers if they dont drop from the platform at a predictable timing it might be hard to react to them dropping so its better to forget about being below them at the start and only play the later cross up game.
moving on platforms is also good and waiting while lightshielding on the platform is also good.
u can also get creative and make it seem like your gonna wait on the platform and move off when they get to you or make it seem like ur gonna move off and go back on or some **** like that lol.
imagine ur a kid again and playing catch with ur classmates or whatever(idk if u did that but i think its pretty common)
i got super carried away but i hope u can get at least something from this
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Having things you practiced be what you think of instead of the match helps, as does general matchup thoughts and how the opponent has been conditioned. Basically, you want to feed that emotion back into the match. Taking a deep breath, while cliche, has actually worked for myself and others and should not be discounted. Taking time to relax your posture and really hold the breath in for a moment so you can release the tension can really change your mind state. It can sometimes help to practice and re-imagine yourself in that tense situation so you can get used to it.
If you're going to go to the edge, do it slowly. Consider the opponent's perspective. If you rush in every time hoping to hit, the opponent could cross you up or roll in and then you'd be cornered and out of time, or just lose advantage. So many people cover the area around them first with like spacie Utilt before trying to attack. So keep crossing up in mind as well as their perspective. Platforms can be good too, but I would suggest doing it more on FoD/YS and not staying on them for super long if possible.
AirFair
Marth tho
Something I've been trying to understand recently is how I can zone better off forward movement as Marth. The matchup I think this lack of understanding hurts me the most in is vs fox right now, so I'll frame the question as if this was being done against fox.
What confuses me at the moment is what kind of decisions I want to make when I do a long dash into my opponent. Out of this dash I can dtilt, and I can do a rising or mid/late fair in place with sh. When I come forward and then try do any kind of fair though, I feel like I'm opening myself up to getting attacked. Rising fair can be punished for missing, and when I retreat with it I can often lose stage because they come in afterward. If I do a later fair then I can get hit in the sh, or they come in after I land. I guess more immediate fairs beat them coming in during my sh, but otherwise it doesn't seem to work that well for me.
Another question is what would make me choose to do this fair over just using dtilt? maybe it's because I don't understand how to use it well, but I feel like if I am going to be aggressive out of my dashes forward, dtilt is the better move for that, and that's what I've been doing up until this point, since that will usually get foxes to start running in earlier, which I can intercept with grab, or they attack as I am pushing in, which I can usually react to and dash back to pivot fair/grab.
I really want to understand how to zone better because I think that would make my aggression a lot better vs fox, instead of relying on beating them off dash back.
What confuses me at the moment is what kind of decisions I want to make when I do a long dash into my opponent. Out of this dash I can dtilt, and I can do a rising or mid/late fair in place with sh. When I come forward and then try do any kind of fair though, I feel like I'm opening myself up to getting attacked. Rising fair can be punished for missing, and when I retreat with it I can often lose stage because they come in afterward. If I do a later fair then I can get hit in the sh, or they come in after I land. I guess more immediate fairs beat them coming in during my sh, but otherwise it doesn't seem to work that well for me.
Another question is what would make me choose to do this fair over just using dtilt? maybe it's because I don't understand how to use it well, but I feel like if I am going to be aggressive out of my dashes forward, dtilt is the better move for that, and that's what I've been doing up until this point, since that will usually get foxes to start running in earlier, which I can intercept with grab, or they attack as I am pushing in, which I can usually react to and dash back to pivot fair/grab.
I really want to understand how to zone better because I think that would make my aggression a lot better vs fox, instead of relying on beating them off dash back.
RedmanSSBM
Improving My Process
Speaking of zoning against Fox, I recently clipped a couple of neutral interactions that I'm kind of happy with and the first clip involves Fox on FD.
Notice here in the first clip how I do 3 attacks to try to catch Fox whiff punishing me before moving in again, doing a few more zoning aerials to catch him or dissuade him from coming in, and then once I'm close enough, I go for the grab and get it. This mostly has to do with how I was reacting to this Fox in neutral in this instance. I could tell from previous context in the match that he would sometimes wait for me to over commit with an aerial and whiff punish me that way, so by taking the forward movement a little slower and using aerials and dtilts to cover him coming in, I felt like I was in control and able to close the distance.
Looking at the second clip I'm not sure if it's the best example of a neutral interaction I'd like to have with Puff. The first nair doesn't really seem like it would hit Puff even if she went in at that time and the second nair just seemed to catch her off guard. Keeping her in the corner however felt a little better, but I still feel like there were some holes in how I used my aerials and likely could have gotten punished.
Notice here in the first clip how I do 3 attacks to try to catch Fox whiff punishing me before moving in again, doing a few more zoning aerials to catch him or dissuade him from coming in, and then once I'm close enough, I go for the grab and get it. This mostly has to do with how I was reacting to this Fox in neutral in this instance. I could tell from previous context in the match that he would sometimes wait for me to over commit with an aerial and whiff punish me that way, so by taking the forward movement a little slower and using aerials and dtilts to cover him coming in, I felt like I was in control and able to close the distance.
Looking at the second clip I'm not sure if it's the best example of a neutral interaction I'd like to have with Puff. The first nair doesn't really seem like it would hit Puff even if she went in at that time and the second nair just seemed to catch her off guard. Keeping her in the corner however felt a little better, but I still feel like there were some holes in how I used my aerials and likely could have gotten punished.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
Practicing the simple things in Melee has been very helpful as of late. The fundamentals of fighting and what makes Marth busted is slowly coming together to me.
For WD/dash back, I know the basic functions can be to quickly reposition to dodge a move and also get an observation, with the WD being more blatant and dash being faster. What is the purpose of WD/dash back and immediately attacking out of it, such as pivot aerial or WD back dtilt/aerial? It covers my space well, but I'm not sure if I'm really grasping what it really means yet other than telling my opponent to respect my space, but that's something I can already accomplish in place so retreating seems redundant. Does it beat especially aggro players?
For WD/dash back, I know the basic functions can be to quickly reposition to dodge a move and also get an observation, with the WD being more blatant and dash being faster. What is the purpose of WD/dash back and immediately attacking out of it, such as pivot aerial or WD back dtilt/aerial? It covers my space well, but I'm not sure if I'm really grasping what it really means yet other than telling my opponent to respect my space, but that's something I can already accomplish in place so retreating seems redundant. Does it beat especially aggro players?
A Fox can jump over the grab and Dtilt attempt, or could attempt to intercept you before a Dtilt could come out. Cutting a dash at any place with a jump, and generally winning air-to-air are strong reasons to support Fair. If you're worried about the risks, you can opt for a lot of dash in and retreating rising Fair. When people begin to respect this, you can control the space instead. Fair'ing in place gives less lag than Dtilt, and the SH itself can give off a more obvious reaction cue, as well as communicate what it counters of course.
But anyway, if they run in and you pivot, they could just WD down outside of your pivot Fair range, and now they have pushed you back. Fair would be helpful in hedging against this type of play. You could of course just play the new position out of dash back instead, but I think it's not necessarily favorable to you and more to the Fox at that point since he's so close and you just dashed back. I think this is all a good starting point to mess with it.
Agreed that the first Nair vs Puff was not properly timed/spaced. The second one isn't so bad as it could beat her instant Bair at that timing and spacing in some cases iirc. You were a bit far away though, and had the Puff waited or faded back at all you would have punished, which Puffs love to do against Marth. She is still slow, and it helps to play as her or at least keep in mind that she will not always be trying to go in and is too slow to easily go in, giving you leeway to dash in/get closer/wait more.
Yes it would communicate that you're prepared to cover your back quickly and perhaps even primed to do it. With WD back I imagine you won't find this necessary to do given how far you move and how much time you have to react, but with dash it's a bit different. Immediately attacking, or just threatening with a jump, can serve your purpose well enough in some instances.
So say I'm marth I'm in the corner on battle field standing on stage with the opponent controlling center from the ground in front of me what are my options for getting out of the corner? I pretty much will either try to dd grab so bait an approach then do a long dashback pivot grab (thanks zain), run past them, wd back off stage and no impact land on the platform from there I can do a shai drop to outspace or escape to the top platform with either a run off no impact land(kinda risky cuz double jumping right above them essentially or full hop waveland from the ground to side platform repeat to top platform or again drop through depending on how they respond. I've also considered doing a saucy walk up dtilt. What other options do I have for escaping from the corner? And are my options good or should I rethink my strategy?
AirFair
Marth tho
so out of dash forward, if I see that they are waiting, I can use sh to hold the space I just moved forward into, and I can fair if they come in to attack me (but I don't have to fair if they don't) and if I get them to respect the fair in place, I've taken stage, and then can dd from there and see if they are going to push in earlier this time so I can intercept/counter that with dash back?
I don't really know what "the ground in front of me" means unless you mean they are basically touching you. Good out of corner options include zoning, faking moving in to gain stage(and also to get more access to WD back and aerial/dtilt space). I don't like getting on side platform on BF since your options aren't great from there, but occasionally it's probably okay.
That's right, and you can also SH back a bit to gain a bit of stage but be safer against attacks. There is a lot of in between with these things, but overall you have the right idea.
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Sorry should've been more specific like I'm in the corner (basically touching the edge) and they are under the far edge of the side platform that I'm under like if you did a pc drop off the side platform going towards center stage and fell straight down facing the edge you just came from. So my good options would be things like a wavedash or dash about halfway along the length of the platform to give myself some room then shield stop nair in place or fair to try and claim my little bit of stage? same deal with dtilt and when you're talking about faking taking stage I have to actually try and just run past every once in a while or they will just either hold their space or catch my movement right? Also what exact movement options would you use to fake it for example long wavedash in then short wd back?
I don't find running through to be very possible in most relevant matchups, but if you want to do it more against Falcon and maybe in the ditto then that's okay. Dtilt you'd need to walk a bit to do, or just crouch and fake doing sometimes. With dash/run in, you either go all the way and attack, or you cut the movement halfway like you say and attack, or you cut it halfway with a dash/WD back, or you let the dash in stall so you can take some space(can mix with SH here). I very much think dash in is essential in escaping from the corner, as you need to build some resource, if you can't tell.
Taking stage= you move in and hold that new spot(attack in place or just stand there and threaten new distances). Faking taking stage= moving in to a position you might take AS IF you were taking stage, and then moving away.
Taking stage= you move in and hold that new spot(attack in place or just stand there and threaten new distances). Faking taking stage= moving in to a position you might take AS IF you were taking stage, and then moving away.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
When is it generally a bad time to attack out of retreat?
That makes a lot of sense I was mainly trying to just avoid them and retake center but I got punished for it a lot so I'll try to stay more grounded and work on taking space/building resources and utilizing my ground movement more effectively. Thanks for the advice!
Zorcey
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- May 12, 2015
- Messages
- 371
In this interview from awhile back (I timestamped the section I'm referring to, roughly 34:00-38:30 https://youtu.be/4l8Ok1PLZ2s?t=2041) Druggedfox explains a little bit about his idea of “screen-looking” or essentially making decisions based upon what you see your opponent do in a game, rather than internalizing your gameplan/mixups/etc. so you can execute things automatically. He says that the goal of competitive Melee is to take options and positions and practice them until you “don’t have to think about them anymore,” but argues this isn’t his idea of what optimal Melee should be. It surprised me when he said top players like Armada aren’t “screen-lookers” and don’t pay attention to what’s going on in-game and just execute automated gameplans while looking for one particular "mistake" they can abuse. He also remarks that he doesn't think understanding why good options are good matters and that kind of baffles me.
What do you think of Druggedfox’s ideas? His definition of "screen-looking" sounds a lot to me like just playing to understand, but that would mean he's arguing that most top players do not do this, and that it's not even necessarily important to competitive Melee, and both of those conclusions confuse me. Do you have any thoughts you could offer?
Do you think there's any good use for Marth’s FH in neutral against Spacies? I use it mainly to beat FH away when they're trying to escape from a bad position or corner, but it seems to me if Marth doesn't hit them out of his FH he gets punished pretty easily on reaction. Are there options it can beat well I should think about?
Something I see M2K do a lot versus Falco is DJ landing Fair (https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=318 and https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=165). Is this mostly done to avoid lasers and mix up the timing of the Fair? Is this something you'd recommend stealing, or is staying grounded and taking the laser generally better? If both are good options then how should I decide between them?
What do you think of Druggedfox’s ideas? His definition of "screen-looking" sounds a lot to me like just playing to understand, but that would mean he's arguing that most top players do not do this, and that it's not even necessarily important to competitive Melee, and both of those conclusions confuse me. Do you have any thoughts you could offer?
Do you think there's any good use for Marth’s FH in neutral against Spacies? I use it mainly to beat FH away when they're trying to escape from a bad position or corner, but it seems to me if Marth doesn't hit them out of his FH he gets punished pretty easily on reaction. Are there options it can beat well I should think about?
Something I see M2K do a lot versus Falco is DJ landing Fair (https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=318 and https://youtu.be/IfyDXsbzd20?t=165). Is this mostly done to avoid lasers and mix up the timing of the Fair? Is this something you'd recommend stealing, or is staying grounded and taking the laser generally better? If both are good options then how should I decide between them?
If the opponent can get their options out before yours, or if your options won't hit the opponent...those are the main two I think of right away anyway. I guess also if their likely option will outspace yours, but this isn't so common as Marth(though it does matter if they outspace your grab but are faster than Fair or Bair). And of course, if they expect it.
What a good landmine to walk around.
The clear answer to this dichotomy is that both are important. Both of these things are what I try to instill in you all when I give advice. I encourage practice that is rote and mechanical, and then I emphasize flexibility through conscious understanding as one understands more and gains finesse mentally and technically. But I suppose I am dodging the question a bit, as Druggedfox would doubtless agree, or largely agree so far.
His complaint is with top level Melee, and I'm not going to go into some of it but I have a fair amount of overlap with his opinion here.
Many players become good by this type of process that I also used: play a lot, get hit by stuff. Figure out how to beat that particular thing you got hit by, then run it back. Complexity naturally emerges. This keeps you from being overwhelmed by the complexity of all available options and timings and is the most immediately useful method. Druggedfox takes issue with the end result of this process: looking only for what top players and the field are doing and play to beat that. I'll leave this here if it makes sense.
FH is great vs spacies that go on the side platform, or if Falco FHs in the corner. You need to be positioned for it, because late reactions are severely punished. I like FH in neutral against Fox as a very clear zoning tool that encourages him to challenge me, but it's a bit excessive to me. Maybe if you're cornered it can be another option as well.
Yeah that's basically why M2K does it. I think getting hit out of the air without your DJ is terribly risky, and it's relatively easy to see coming so I don't think it should be common at all. I hesitate to even recommend it that much, but I haven't extensively tested it.
Kotastic
Smash Ace
PP, let's say hypothetically that I don't love Melee, but rather I like it decently. This would surely affect my motivation of doing some routines, such as seeing practice routines as a chore, less drive to play friendlies, etc., but still want to improve in areas of the game as is. The drive to improve is there, but not super rooted out of the love of the game. How would you make the motivation stronger that's comparable to someone that loves Melee?
Well I'd certainly need more information generally.
I think in some cases, we need to see the direct result between practice and results. If you can guarantee someone can beat this thing more, or execute this difficult thing more with practice, it can reinforce someone's resolve. These things can feel so abstract sometimes.
But look, what I really want to say is that one may only want to play to win, to win easily. If that is true, then you will hit a wall in Melee or anything. Maybe they like the thrill of competing, and so they need to find a way to add stakes to practice like push-ups if they make a mistake or something.
Maybe they want to win but feel like they don't deserve it. In that case they need to first acknowledge this, and then accept whatever pain there is with it. Then they need to work on building a new relationship with success, the game, and themselves.
The important thing no matter the root cause is to challenge basic thoughts and feelings associated with the game and compare them with those of someone who loves the game. Sometimes the desire to change is there, and it just takes reframing practice as fun drills to do(Cactus would tell people to do drills of dashes that turn to runs to get the feeling of the difference, and lead that into sequences of actions like RC Dtilt retreating Nair to be frame tight to get used to these tech points that improve feeling), or some hard challenge if one likes to overcome it, and so on. The information I have is too vague to say anything more specific.
I think in some cases, we need to see the direct result between practice and results. If you can guarantee someone can beat this thing more, or execute this difficult thing more with practice, it can reinforce someone's resolve. These things can feel so abstract sometimes.
But look, what I really want to say is that one may only want to play to win, to win easily. If that is true, then you will hit a wall in Melee or anything. Maybe they like the thrill of competing, and so they need to find a way to add stakes to practice like push-ups if they make a mistake or something.
Maybe they want to win but feel like they don't deserve it. In that case they need to first acknowledge this, and then accept whatever pain there is with it. Then they need to work on building a new relationship with success, the game, and themselves.
The important thing no matter the root cause is to challenge basic thoughts and feelings associated with the game and compare them with those of someone who loves the game. Sometimes the desire to change is there, and it just takes reframing practice as fun drills to do(Cactus would tell people to do drills of dashes that turn to runs to get the feeling of the difference, and lead that into sequences of actions like RC Dtilt retreating Nair to be frame tight to get used to these tech points that improve feeling), or some hard challenge if one likes to overcome it, and so on. The information I have is too vague to say anything more specific.