Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[RedmanSSBM]

After trying most of the weekend to practice more of reacting in neutral I eventually got fed up with how poorly I was playing since trying to react to everything means that I am generally going to be playing much slower. I decided to just start playing much quicker and swing more essentially to cover what my opponent can do instead of trying to react 100% of the time and I ended up doing much better as a result.

However this doesn't feel right in terms of improvement at the game since my main problem has been not reacting to what I need to in neutral. It feels so hard to be able to look at the range my opponent is at, and dash dance accordingly in the right space. Often times I don't recognize their threatening range and I get hit when I don't expect to. I'm at this weird crossroads where by trying to react more to things, it helps to build me into being a better playing since then I won't swing unnecessarily, but then when I play others around my level and decide to swing a lot more and be less reactive, I perform a lot better. I still feel like I get beat just as hard by better players, whether I try to react more or not.

I don't know if I just need to be more patient with myself in terms of learning to react more or there is a possibility that I'm doing something wrong with the reacting.

 

[Dr Peepee]

I wouldn't try to react to everything, just stuff you think is important. Everything comes with getting better at chunks. Also, nothing really wrong with zoning and giving yourself a break and making reactions more obviously placed.

 

[Zorcey]

Do you think there's such a thing as a gameplan that's too well-defined or inflexible? How do you recommend balancing open-mindedness and awareness when playing with practicing what you know (or think) works? What percentage of friendlies should be spent practicing the execution of a gameplan, in your opinion? Is it something that should always be guiding the way you play, or is there a place for just messing around and seeing what positions come up out of that?

Versus jump-heavy characters like Falco and Falcon, when do you generally want to SideB and when do you want to Nair? I'm trouble figuring out which to use in different situations, but I'm finding that SideB is generally better if I'm not at mid-range and/or don't have much time to set up a good spacing for Nair.

If you were to play against a Falco who Fsmashed through your Jabs around Tipper Jab spacing, would you start to dash back from that position? If it turns out the Falco didn't Fsmash, what are some examples of actions you would sequence out of that dash back?

 

[Kotastic]

How do you effectively corner a sheik that has full stack of needles, threatening FH needles?

 

[HolidayMaker]

Hey, can you outline cornering and juggling in the Marth ditto? I know that's fairly general, but the way I'm juggling now, I feel like sometimes I'm eating a mixup when I try to hit the other Marth because they might side b stall or DJ and counterhit me, and I'm pretty sure there's a better way to do it. Likewise, Marth is pretty bad off the ledge/corner and very good at pressuring that position, and I feel like I'm not capitalizing on it nearly hard enough. Space animals on the ledge shouldn't be easier for me to deal with than another Marth. What options do you like in that position? For the sake of simplicity let's say they're mixing up a shallow WL on and a deep aerial on, and have a tendency to hold shield/roll afterward (most players lol).

 

[Dr Peepee]

Do you think there's such a thing as a gameplan that's too well-defined or inflexible? How do you recommend balancing open-mindedness and awareness when playing with practicing what you know (or think) works? What percentage of friendlies should be spent practicing the execution of a gameplan, in your opinion? Is it something that should always be guiding the way you play, or is there a place for just messing around and seeing what positions come up out of that?

Versus jump-heavy characters like Falco and Falcon, when do you generally want to SideB and when do you want to Nair? I'm trouble figuring out which to use in different situations, but I'm finding that SideB is generally better if I'm not at mid-range and/or don't have much time to set up a good spacing for Nair.

If you were to play against a Falco who Fsmashed through your Jabs around Tipper Jab spacing, would you start to dash back from that position? If it turns out the Falco didn't Fsmash, what are some examples of actions you would sequence out of that dash back?

I do think there is such a thing. It helps to think of what beats your options that might not be common in the meta but are nonetheless good, which can encourage you to get ahead of the meta(thinking of what beats your common plays keeps you ahead of your personal meta as well). For friendlies, it's variable, but if you're playing to win then it should be full-gameplan implementation. Messing around is totally fine too, friendlies should be for experimentation as well as reinforcement.

Nair I like when I can run up and do it, so maybe when I have a bit more time and I don't think they will come in right away or perhaps be waiting for me act to first. So basically what you said.

How do you effectively corner a sheik that has full stack of needles, threatening FH needles?

On a stage with a side platform(and a higher side platform on FoD), you can stand where the needles won't hit you or be near you until Sheik is quite low and you can threaten her. If on FD, then beating FH needle means getting under Sheik(dashing in as she jumps), or dashing away and resetting as she jumps. Beyond that it's just normal cornering.

Hey, can you outline cornering and juggling in the Marth ditto? I know that's fairly general, but the way I'm juggling now, I feel like sometimes I'm eating a mixup when I try to hit the other Marth because they might side b stall or DJ and counterhit me, and I'm pretty sure there's a better way to do it. Likewise, Marth is pretty bad off the ledge/corner and very good at pressuring that position, and I feel like I'm not capitalizing on it nearly hard enough. Space animals on the ledge shouldn't be easier for me to deal with than another Marth. What options do you like in that position? For the sake of simplicity let's say they're mixing up a shallow WL on and a deep aerial on, and have a tendency to hold shield/roll afterward (most players lol).

I can't go everything, but I can give you some general things. FH is generally not so good unless they are very high up, well past FH height. SH and occasional dashes are good because you can move up or down quickly from there and also threaten with the SH itself. Fair and Uair are what you want to hit with ideally(push them up then out as percent builds), but Utilt and even regrabbing is okay too when needed. Stay between them and center stage when possible, and if they're high up get on the platform below them.

Stand outside of the deep aerial range normally and Dtilt/Fair/grab/wait and threaten one of those things if he aerials, and otherwise push forward or fake it or control your space with Dtilt/Fair if they go onto the lip of the stage. Do not spam DD.

 

[Reyjavik]

I do think there is such a thing. It helps to think of what beats your options that might not be common in the meta but are nonetheless good, which can encourage you to get ahead of the meta(thinking of what beats your common plays keeps you ahead of your personal meta as well). For friendlies, it's variable, but if you're playing to win then it should be full-gameplan implementation. Messing around is totally fine too, friendlies should be for experimentation as well as reinforcement.

Nair I like when I can run up and do it, so maybe when I have a bit more time and I don't think they will come in right away or perhaps be waiting for me act to first. So basically what you said.


On a stage with a side platform(and a higher side platform on FoD), you can stand where the needles won't hit you or be near you until Sheik is quite low and you can threaten her. If on FD, then beating FH needle means getting under Sheik(dashing in as she jumps), or dashing away and resetting as she jumps. Beyond that it's just normal cornering.


I can't go everything, but I can give you some general things. FH is generally not so good unless they are very high up, well past FH height. SH and occasional dashes are good because you can move up or down quickly from there and also threaten with the SH itself. Fair and Uair are what you want to hit with ideally(push them up then out as percent builds), but Utilt and even regrabbing is okay too when needed. Stay between them and center stage when possible, and if they're high up get on the platform below them.

Stand outside of the deep aerial range normally and Dtilt/Fair/grab/wait and threaten one of those things if he aerials, and otherwise push forward or fake it or control your space with Dtilt/Fair if they go onto the lip of the stage. Do not spam DD.

In talking about the ditto, I've been recently struggling with it since I've been revamping neutral. Before I would use aerials to threaten and approach, but now I'm using aerials to zone and catch their approaches. Somehow the ditto seems harder now haha
If you're not dash dancing as much, how do you bait a marth to come in and catch them?
Also anyone have any ditto sets outside of PP and M2k I should watch? I've been going over more elusive non-marth main matchups lately but want to understand the Marth ditto better

 

[rousd]

This vid helped me with some things to do in the ditto
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lmkq80uYLU0&ab_channel=Rishi

 

[AirFair]

I have some questions about how I play the luigi and ic's mu

When playing these two characters, a common theme is invalidating them for using their wd, since it's their main attacking tool. Doing this involves a lot of dtilting, and I will use sh to get into that range, and sh back to that range when I am too close, so I'm able to use fair if I see them coming forward. What I think is a problem though is how much I just spam dtilt in those ranges, because I'm not confident in hitting their wd when I see it. For some reason, I feel like if I wait to dtilt their wd, I'm going to do it too late and get hit by something, so I often just do it in place the moment I land near that range, and if I feel like an attack is coming. This works sometimes but I feel like I'm not invalidating their character properly, especially when I miss a dtilt, and they are able to slide in afterwards. Basically I do dtilts very preemptively, and I want to know if being able to hit their wd is a reaction I need to practice.

Once I'm in that range and I've hit a dtilt, what can I do to capitalize off that? sometimes all I get off that is just stuffing one wd in, and then the position resets and I have to look for another hit, which can involve giving up some stage by moving slightly back with sh. Is crouching in place/walk dtilt good here to hold my position after I got a hit? I think it could be good but it would mean that I am confident about hitting dtilts properly, which I am not currently lol

Another thing that I think I don't do very well vs either of those characters is take advantage of them shielding. I feel like whenever I get them to shield, I'm usually covering their wd oos and nothing else, so I end up backing off a bit so I can fair/dtilt that, but in the process, The reason I don't get too close to them shielding is because of how often I get hit by roll behind into a smash attack or tilt when I sh towards their shield, or dtilt their shield. I'm not sure how to punish this well out of sh. How can I pressure these characters better when they shield? Can I cover roll and wd from the same distance?

I think this short clip kind of sums up a lot of the things I have problems with
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdRugwv35zs&feature=youtu.be&t=231
I think because of the crew battle scenario, I was probably trying to be extra careful with giving openings, which meant I was preemptively swinging so much more due to a lack of confidence.

 

[Dr Peepee]

In talking about the ditto, I've been recently struggling with it since I've been revamping neutral. Before I would use aerials to threaten and approach, but now I'm using aerials to zone and catch their approaches. Somehow the ditto seems harder now haha
If you're not dash dancing as much, how do you bait a marth to come in and catch them?
Also anyone have any ditto sets outside of PP and M2k I should watch? I've been going over more elusive non-marth main matchups lately but want to understand the Marth ditto better

Zoning has to be from a decent distance since Marth has so much range and movement speed. Dashing is fine, and mixing it more when closer is okay as long as you don't overdo it.

I have some questions about how I play the luigi and ic's mu

When playing these two characters, a common theme is invalidating them for using their wd, since it's their main attacking tool. Doing this involves a lot of dtilting, and I will use sh to get into that range, and sh back to that range when I am too close, so I'm able to use fair if I see them coming forward. What I think is a problem though is how much I just spam dtilt in those ranges, because I'm not confident in hitting their wd when I see it. For some reason, I feel like if I wait to dtilt their wd, I'm going to do it too late and get hit by something, so I often just do it in place the moment I land near that range, and if I feel like an attack is coming. This works sometimes but I feel like I'm not invalidating their character properly, especially when I miss a dtilt, and they are able to slide in afterwards. Basically I do dtilts very preemptively, and I want to know if being able to hit their wd is a reaction I need to practice.

Once I'm in that range and I've hit a dtilt, what can I do to capitalize off that? sometimes all I get off that is just stuffing one wd in, and then the position resets and I have to look for another hit, which can involve giving up some stage by moving slightly back with sh. Is crouching in place/walk dtilt good here to hold my position after I got a hit? I think it could be good but it would mean that I am confident about hitting dtilts properly, which I am not currently lol

Another thing that I think I don't do very well vs either of those characters is take advantage of them shielding. I feel like whenever I get them to shield, I'm usually covering their wd oos and nothing else, so I end up backing off a bit so I can fair/dtilt that, but in the process, The reason I don't get too close to them shielding is because of how often I get hit by roll behind into a smash attack or tilt when I sh towards their shield, or dtilt their shield. I'm not sure how to punish this well out of sh. How can I pressure these characters better when they shield? Can I cover roll and wd from the same distance?

I think this short clip kind of sums up a lot of the things I have problems with
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdRugwv35zs&feature=youtu.be&t=231
I think because of the crew battle scenario, I was probably trying to be extra careful with giving openings, which meant I was preemptively swinging so much more due to a lack of confidence.

You want to get close to enough to hit them with Dtilt so they can't do anything. Getting in place to invalidate their movement can mean you do have to guess, which is not what you want. Staying farther away and then pushing into that spaced Dtilt range is ideal, and SH helps bridge that gap.

The position doesn't fully reset when you get a hit. On ICs they desync for example, but you usually have a chance to push forward a bit and outspace them again.

If they roll when you get near them, just FF and turnaround grab so you can put them toward the edge again. Drifting in when you SH and confirm shield makes this easy and let's you set up safe pressure if they don't.

 

[AirFair]

Zoning has to be from a decent distance since Marth has so much range and movement speed. Dashing is fine, and mixing it more when closer is okay as long as you don't overdo it.


You want to get close to enough to hit them with Dtilt so they can't do anything. Getting in place to invalidate their movement can mean you do have to guess, which is not what you want. Staying farther away and then pushing into that spaced Dtilt range is ideal, and SH helps bridge that gap.

The position doesn't fully reset when you get a hit. On ICs they desync for example, but you usually have a chance to push forward a bit and outspace them again.

If they roll when you get near them, just FF and turnaround grab so you can put them toward the edge again. Drifting in when you SH and confirm shield makes this easy and let's you set up safe pressure if they don't.

oh so you mean that I should be dtilting luigi instead of trying to dtilt his wd, and I can sh in to where I can tipper dtilt him ideally? I can see how that would be better than trying to guess at when a wd is coming and attempting to stuff that.

 

[Reyjavik]

oh so you mean that I should be dtilting luigi instead of trying to dtilt his wd, and I can sh in to where I can tipper dtilt him ideally? I can see how that would be better than trying to guess at when a wd is coming and attempting to stuff that.

Yea, as you may know the concept of marth is limiting another character's options using range. If he's already wavedashing, you failed to prevent that option from being selectable. Dtilt makes Luigi's and Ic's stop their movement, which is their best attribute. What you want to do is zone a luigi mixing in dtilts to get a grab or stuff his aerials using fair. If he's wavedashing already, I like to use fadeback nair now to put out a lingering hitbox in case he tries to go for a grab, jump out of WD, or dsmash.
Just like with Dr. Mario, you want to stay out of his reach using aerials to zone out his approaches as once you remove his greatest attribute (his long wd), he becomes much easier to deal with.

 

[maxono1]

Dr Peepee so ive been reading through the compilation of posts that kotastic made and ive got a question

What do you think of this situation:

https://youtu.be/QTGq_HpBJ3w?t=1m36s

In this set articanus gets a bunch of tipper dtilts, and wizy's default option is to hold shield for a little and then wavedash back. Do you think its worth calling this out? Or should marth just play from center?

Call out with something like RC Fsmash? No not really. But moving forward and knowing Wizzy will shield and you can set up very safe pressure? Absolutely.

what would you say is safe pressure? things i can think of is dashing toward him to threaten grab and mixing that up with dashing back after to put myself in a position to react to spotdodge or roll to center and stay relatively safe from his immediate attacks oos,
wd after him and dtilt his shield and then something like retreating aerial on shield or dashing back and looking for him aerialing or fh oos so i can do pivot or shieldstop jump to fair or otherwise challenge him in the air.
my main question would be though, in the situation of the clip would jumping after him immediately be a good idea? i feel like instead of shielding he could do a dash instant (or mb just drift forward) nair or upair and since i cant cc im kinda ****ed and the other options i listed dont have this kind of flaw except maybe if he grabs but it seems to me that grab would be more of a commitment from him since it has less range so he has to dash more and also it has more endlag, same thing if he tries to stomp* the second dtilt.
thinking about it while writing it came to me that you could maybe double fair to cover both things but after looking at the frame data it seems to me like the falcon could react and retreat immediately or go in to cc the second one so idk abt that.
also what kind of pressure would you do to get them to hold shield for longer? in my experience doing multiple dtilts just invites them to aerial me oos

 

[Dr Peepee]

No need to grab Falcon because that gives him a chance to beat you. Staying outside of his grab and aerial oos range and occasionally hitting him is safe pressure. Fair and Dtilt primarily but you could Nair too I suppose.

Pushing in after landing Dtilt is usually good, and that can help set you up to jump and beat their jump.

People may hold shield longer if you beat + cover other things. If you have beaten rolls, they probably won't roll. If you're jumping, they probably will wait for you to land if they want to jump. Etc

 

[maxono1]

thx for the quick answer didnt expect you to reply before i went to bed
so i thought to threaten grab to give him a reason to act oos immediately because wizzy said himself that he likes to hold shield longer than most players, but i guess what youre saying is if they are in shield they have to move out of it at some point anyway and i dont have to force the issue? and that i would be better off trying to cover his oos options and only hitting him safely(with dtilt/fair) to bait out a response?

my main question would be though, in the situation of the clip would jumping after him immediately be a good idea? i feel like instead of shielding he could do a dash instant (or mb just drift forward) nair or upair and since i cant cc im kinda ****ed and the other options i listed dont have this kind of flaw except maybe if he grabs but it seems to me that grab would be more of a commitment from him since it has less range so he has to dash more and also it has more endlag, same thing if he tries to stomp* the second dtilt.

did you address this already with saying that pushing in after landing dtilt is usually good?(if you didnt pls address it) to elaborate i mean jumping in without confirming anything to set up a late aerial if he shields

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I mean if you want to grab occasionally when they don't expect it anymore I guess it's fine but ultimately why take the risk when you can just invalidate him? If they can't move and they can't beat your options, that's more successful long-term.

My understanding was Wizzy jumped away after taking Dtilt, but if you jumped straight in you'd often be too far away to reliably win. So I said push in first to cover more situations.

 

[Zorcey]

How do you handle Fox DDing around your zoning aerials? https://youtu.be/OJJtWbBJxdw?t=932 In this clip Zain does a slowfall Fair in the corner and Fiction just seems to confirm and punish it. With the distance he was keeping I'm not entirely sure WD Dtilt or runup grab would be viable mixups, because Marth is just so slow (not to mention any movement in here seems extremely risky). It's obviously a really bad situation, but what would you recommend Marth does here to beat Fox?

Fiction DDing around Zain's zoning aerials is something that happens a lot throughout this set. I would think this is the point in the matchup when Marth needs to try and poke Fox out of his DD with Dtilt or otherwise moving in, but these mixups are very risky for Marth because of his low speed and the number of options Fox has that beat Marth moving in, which is why he only wants to move in like that rarely - the situation doesn't play to his strengths and if Fox will come in without that conditioning, why play a mixup that's worse for you? Am I on the right track here with my understanding?

 

[Dr Peepee]

He did not DD around that Fair, he dashed in SH'd and pulled back to bait the Fair and then punished. I would argue that Zain could have confirmed Fiction's pullback pretty early and not done a Fair then and instead landed and jabbed or Dtilted or done an immediate aerial or gone back to edge etc. I also would argue that it's a bit uncertain if Zain needed to shield before that given Fiction was pretty far away and not coming in too quickly/staying in his zone. Some of that would be dependent on previous edge interactions though. I could even argue that if Zain had drifted in and then Fair'd he may still have hit Fiction despite the pullback. So I would say that this Fair was not so good, despite the bad positioning kind of forcing it and Fiction playing it pretty well. Other mixups include run up retreating Fair/Nair or perhaps Nair in place/slight retreating Nair, as well as faking that with dash/run up and dash/wd back or SH back, and of course mixing in waits to change up the timing. There were plenty of possible options here, but again the position itself is bad.

I harped on this situation because I think it's easier to blow up Marth's aerials if he's going to do the exact same kind of aerial a lot, and it's even worse if he always picks the same type of timing or spacing to do it. I imagine Fiction would be playing off of Zain's habits here. Doing an aerial immediately vs slightly waiting and doing it is important, and so is doing something entirely different.

If Fox is waiting outside of Marth's immediate aerial range, then that opens up drifting in, moving in and faking, SH'ing but not doing an aerial, and poking with Dtilt occasionally or some run up grab or walk Fsmash type of thing. Marth does not need to always swing when he moves in, especially if one is thinking the opponent will always intercept. You can just move in and fade back if that's a concern and it's usually pretty safe. You can build from that point.

Edit: The goal is to expand Marth's threat range so Fox doesn't feel easily safe DD'ing just outside of Marth's attacks.

 

[Minimu5e]

I know this thread is supposed to be about Tiara boi but I guess this question applies to melee as a whole and even fighting games in general. Do you have any advice on improving on adapting midset against "scrub tactics"? Like say your playing a peach that spams CC downsmash or an IC's that does nothing but fish for obvious grabs to get wobbles, both moves that have extremely high reward but the player doing them has no understanding of mixups. The obvious answer is to just play around it by using the appropriate counterplay (space around dsmash, bait out bad ICs grabs, etc) but I feel like this is a lot harder to actually put into practice then it sounds, at least for me it is. What's your mentality when running into someone with a one-trick-pony playstyle that requires you to completely deviate from your normal gameplan? It's a problem I've alwayas had and I feel like I'm losing to a lot of people at locals who I shouldn't ever be losing to and it's very hard for me to put myself in a "just do X to beat Y over and over again for 4 stocks" mindset...

 

[Dr Peepee]

Right, so part of this is about discipline. You just have to beat their typical thing and how they set it up. Some ICs always run in after you land from an aerial, but some want to get a blizzard hit first, and some like to shield grab. Some do all three a lot. So the first point about this or Peach CC Dsmash or whatever is to honestly look at how they do it and play around it.

But the other thing is about being mad. And to this I say: being a competitor means overcoming what's in front of you. Crowds, tactics, emotions, whatever. It DOES NOT matter. If you get hit by a wobble, it's YOUR fault. If you want them to stop, beat them for it. If this sounds harsh, please remember that without emotional backing you won't stand up to people doing easily punished things or harder things when you get challenged, so it can be very good training in its own way. So while I do personally find it silly if people fish for only one thing, I find the variety in how I punish it sometimes to make it more entertaining. I may call it out obviously with tippers that shouldn't work, or I may do small hits to let them keep going for it to see to what extent the habit is ingrained, or I may start combos differently. Whatever makes the matches more interesting. So there is still control and variety even when playing these people, and the goal then should be to find it and enjoy playing Melee anyway, and not focusing on the opponent's tactics and being bothered by them.

 

[Minimu5e]

Holy smokes that reply was fast lmao, guess I caught you at a good time.

Anyways thanks for the well thought out answer, I think you kinda hit the nail on the head with this. I'll put it all into consideration when playing from now on =D

 

[Reyjavik]

Hey all,
Finally played at my first real tournament that was crazy stacked, Full Bloom 5.
Going in, I felt my play in the week leading up to the tournament was weak. Despite that, I tried to focus on getting rest, practicing a bit and focusing on what I need to do. The day before the tournament, I showed up to the local smash meetup at IU and was doing pretty well against people there towards the end.
The actual tournament itself was probably the worst I've played ever in terms of relative skill. This was my first tourney and while I wasn't nervous to play, the first match in the first tourney happened to be on stream, starting off the last pool near prime time. I started to get anxiety that I would be playing in front of thousands of people and soon was trying to recover my zen. Doing breathing exercises, trying to focus on my breathing and blocking out extraneous thoughts. When the match began I knew I was off and I lost the first game, but I think I got some cheers due to homie stocking at the start. Second game I took but I knew it was part luck but also sso many technical flubs were starting to show like never before. The third game destroyed me as he got 2 quick kills with Shines off the top due to my bad di, while I was messing up grabs and aerials I normally wouldn't miss and didn't miss the day before. I felt really dejected after it as I know I could have potentially beaten this guy if I didn't flub so hard with nerves high from being on stream.
My follow up match was a massacre with a peach and I just felt like how I used to play almost a year ago, just a fsmashing marth who didn't safe DD or bait and instead go for almost raw grabs. I felt I had lost all of my gameplans, my technical execution, and experience in these last 2 sets.
I felt broken for sure after this second game, with absolute sadness from having played so scrub like the second game and not being able to do anything worthwhile. I just wanted to drive several hours back home and cut my trip early.
Despite how I was feeling, the homies came through and told me to come to dinner and that really helped perk up my mood.
By the end of the night, I had reignited my melee fire and we were playing friendlies again. However this time, something clicked back into place and I was able to finally take a game from the second best player in our scene, who earlier was going toe to toe with Reeve from Kentucky in marth dittos as well. While It may not be a amazing tournament run, I feel confident again and wanting to work harder to not get stressed or get whatever I was feeling again, with even S2J offering advice after I asked. Even better was that I learned I took a tournament game off a former local PR player, the falco I played on stream.
Moral of the Story:
Keep small personal goals in mind and don't stress over the large ones looming ahead such as not going 0-2 at a stacked tourney. You can do it and can improve if you keep at it and take time to not overanalyze/overfocus on your failures.

 

[quixotic]

What are the pros and cons of take laser jab and take laser dash back?

 

[Reyjavik]

What are the pros and cons of take laser jab and take laser dash back?

Depends on stage position and percent.
Laser jab stifles close range approaches from a falco at a frame advantageous state due to how faste and quick jab comes out. The cons to it would be not being powerful, an opponent can crouch cancel it, and being stuck in one spot with a whiff.
Laser dash back lets you reposition and keep movement going/spacing optimal for approaches but gives up stage position/pressure.

 

[Dr Peepee]

What are the pros and cons of take laser jab and take laser dash back?

Pros of jab: damage, lets you hold your position, pushes them away but not so far you can't have advantage, encourages Falco to wait/Fsmash/dash back after laser.
Cons: Have to do it right* away, so little reaction. Not an immediate punish. *- Depending on spacing and your own reactions, you can mitigate this to an extent.

Pros of dash back: can react out of it such as with PS or pivot grab, which in the latter's case is high reward. Pretty safe overall.
Cons: Giving up stage, not always the best at handling laser dash aerial in, can struggle with dash in laser in place as a mixup to this

Another type of disadvantage of both is Marths tend to only use one or the other a lot. I personally prefer weighting dash back like 65% and jab 35% but I also like take laser wait as I can often hit them if they're slow or still react with dash back if they're late, which is a hidden option that deepens them all.

 

[AirFair]

couple random questions

when samus/link runoff nairs to edgeguard marth going low when recovering, is the only thing marth can do to beat that just drop and then dj and up b after the nair is over? I feel like I try and drop and will still get caught by the nair pretty often, and sometimes I get sent into the stage and miss the tech so I die. Is using upB early good at all here? I feel like it would trade and I would die anyway.

when fighting ganon, I can often dd grab him for doing approaching aerials, but I'm not really fairing him a lot, because I'm afraid of trading with his really strong fair/bair. How can I start to work fair more vs him?
anotherthing that ganon does against me using dd is to sh and then use their dj, kind of like the ganon version of the fox fh dj mixup where they can come at you and then dj over your whiffed grab and then come down and punish it. Should I be looking to fh fair him out of this? that seems pretty good to me, as up until now I've been waiting for the landing to try and punish it, but it doesn't always work when they drift back.

 

[Dr Peepee]

If you pull back you can dodge it sometimes, or stall using side B and DJ and late up-B. If you're pulled back you're more likely to beat their move with the up-B hitbox as well. Sometimes you can DJ Fair them.

If Ganon is Fair'ing, you can react while dashing in to Fair his startup. If he's Bair'ing it's harder to Fair him unless he doesn't instantly do it, but you could Fair his landing lag, or set yourself up just outside of his Bair range and jump so you could Fair his outstretched hand I guess. With Bair you mainly want to get in on him as he lands since his back is turned and he can't do anything else then.
If he's jumping in you can sometimes SH Fair him out of the air depending on how close you are, but if he's DJ'ing a lot then yeah just move in and FH Fair.

 

[Kotastic]

When Fox/Falco is approaching aerial you, do you have to read their timing of initiating the nair with pivot grab? Like I have to confirm by their dash startup, patterns, and/or conditioning to land the pivot grab? I find that if I react by the aerial itself, I have the tendency to get spotdodged or something so I have to settle with RC fsmash or nair or foxtrot grab.

 

[Dr Peepee]

It depends. If you're already dashing back as they come in, it's an easier reaction. If you're just outside of/around the range of their aerial so you have more time to wait to react, it's easier to punish. It also depends on how far away you get with your dash back if you do it and if they pull back. If they pull back it's pretty difficult to time the dash JC grab well, and if you dash pretty far or start pretty far away, or dash early so you go farther away so you end up farther away from them, etc....then you won't be able to grab their landing lag.

If you're still concerned with getting the grab or not, it may be worth testing it out to be positive.

 

[RedmanSSBM]

couple random questions

when samus/link runoff nairs to edgeguard marth going low when recovering, is the only thing marth can do to beat that just drop and then dj and up b after the nair is over? I feel like I try and drop and will still get caught by the nair pretty often, and sometimes I get sent into the stage and miss the tech so I die. Is using upB early good at all here? I feel like it would trade and I would die anyway.

when fighting ganon, I can often dd grab him for doing approaching aerials, but I'm not really fairing him a lot, because I'm afraid of trading with his really strong fair/bair. How can I start to work fair more vs him?
anotherthing that ganon does against me using dd is to sh and then use their dj, kind of like the ganon version of the fox fh dj mixup where they can come at you and then dj over your whiffed grab and then come down and punish it. Should I be looking to fh fair him out of this? that seems pretty good to me, as up until now I've been waiting for the landing to try and punish it, but it doesn't always work when they drift back.

I believe I have a few clips of me getting around the nair off stage that Link will do against Marth but I'll have to go through them at some point. But yeah you have the right idea that you need to go pretty low, react to where the nair is, and then DJ > up-b at the right timing and spacing around the nair.

As for the Ganon DJing stuff, there's actually several vods of a Marth beating up on a Ganon that does a lot of that. I'll link them here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3lg_ARHJcaY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ad4FhKS43k

There's a lot happening in this videos but you get a really solid idea of how Marth should probably be playing the matchup and beating certain habits from the Ganon.

 

[Kotastic]

How would you recommend edgeguarding pikachu based from zain vs axe recently? It honestly looks such a pain with a high chance of getting reversaled. Pikas tools to option select sweetspot and onstage recovery as well as comparable ledgedash galint as Fox makes it overall seem like a dangerous gambit. It honestly just seems better to upthrow pika and try to get a juggle kill.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Zain kept standing too far away to hit Pika offstage. You could Dtilt there, and occasionally Fsmash which hits other angles or could outright kill. Dtilting IASA lets you chase Axe down if he goes over you, and occasionally you could Fair depending on height and get a Ken Combo I bet(Axe must hold in for angle...but I guess he could hold in then let go super fast...momentum may counteract this in your favor?)

I think going out there if you're holding the edge with Bair can catch Pikachu sometimes, but at lower percents it's obviously not worth it. If there's a specific situation you want to discuss, we can, but I think we are not using anything close to optimized to discuss this. M2K had streams with Axe when he was in AZ and he at least juggled Axe super well, but can't remember the edgeguarding. So the info may be out there already in video form, but if not then testing can help us out.

 

[Zorcey]

What were the qualities of M2K’s juggles that made them so effective on Pikachu? What are important things he does when juggling that other Marths don’t?

Are there generally different angles you want to maintain when juggling different characters? (For example, if you’re juggling Peach near the center of FD and want to stay close to center stage diagonal to her, would the same be true of juggling Marth or Sheik?) Does the position you want versus a character vary much by stage? (If the stage was BF instead, would you change your position since now Peach is above the top platform? Would you try to get more beside her rather than under her now?)

Under what conditions do you recommend going to a side platform during a juggle? Is it character-dependent, or do you observe some general rules?

 

[maxono1]

If you pull back you can dodge it sometimes, or stall using side B and DJ and late up-B. If you're pulled back you're more likely to beat their move with the up-B hitbox as well. Sometimes you can DJ Fair them.

If Ganon is Fair'ing, you can react while dashing in to Fair his startup. If he's Bair'ing it's harder to Fair him unless he doesn't instantly do it, but you could Fair his landing lag, or set yourself up just outside of his Bair range and jump so you could Fair his outstretched hand I guess. With Bair you mainly want to get in on him as he lands since his back is turned and he can't do anything else then.
If he's jumping in you can sometimes SH Fair him out of the air depending on how close you are, but if he's DJ'ing a lot then yeah just move in and FH Fair.

is fh fair good against falcon dj ing a lot too? my guess would be that because his jump is faster you cant confirm it or cant react as easily so you have to read and if you read wrong you get punished hard because he can get under you more easily than ganon.
if fh fair isnt it what do i do to punish him reading my dash in nair in place with dj nair or other aerial? just dash in like im doing the nair dash back and go in on his landing? i feel like i understand marth falcon the least out of all the top tier matchups(from marths perspective) or at least its the most unintuitive for me

 

[Dr Peepee]

What were the qualities of M2K’s juggles that made them so effective on Pikachu? What are important things he does when juggling that other Marths don’t?

Are there generally different angles you want to maintain when juggling different characters? (For example, if you’re juggling Peach near the center of FD and want to stay close to center stage diagonal to her, would the same be true of juggling Marth or Sheik?) Does the position you want versus a character vary much by stage? (If the stage was BF instead, would you change your position since now Peach is above the top platform? Would you try to get more beside her rather than under her now?)

Under what conditions do you recommend going to a side platform during a juggle? Is it character-dependent, or do you observe some general rules?

He knows how to hit the FH/DJ Uairs on Uthrow, he gets Fairs on Axe's Dairs or otherwise shield grabs them, and the rest is just positioning yourself well for other things like Pikachu using up-B if they start struggling to get down.

Sometimes you want to Uair more, like with Marth and Sheik, sometimes you want to Fair more especially based on percent(or Falco)[people often push people up for too long, which I happen to believe both Zain and M2K do], some varies like on your BF example you want to be on the top platform so they don't have access to it, but then once it's cut off or mostly so(in a way you can reach it) you can transition to other coverage.

Get on the side platform if they're relatively high above it. So of course if they're going to land soon then don't worry about it, but if you have to land on there and set up, then you should.

is fh fair good against falcon dj ing a lot too? my guess would be that because his jump is faster you cant confirm it or cant react as easily so you have to read and if you read wrong you get punished hard because he can get under you more easily than ganon.
if fh fair isnt it what do i do to punish him reading my dash in nair in place with dj nair or other aerial? just dash in like im doing the nair dash back and go in on his landing? i feel like i understand marth falcon the least out of all the top tier matchups(from marths perspective) or at least its the most unintuitive for me

Usually you're spaced farther from Falcon, and he can drift farther and with faster aerials, so no I wouldn't say it's as possible. Still though you can set up to SH Fair him if he comes in, and in so doing you can pressure him to move back which can be good for you. It all depends on how quickly you react to his DJ, so if you're slow his DJ can get more leverage to drift in and Uair/Bair you, which you don't want. But still, you could dash FH Fair.

If you're already moving in like that, then yeah you could probably FH Fair or even SH Uair but again that does depend on spacing and your reactions.




Edit: Honestly the disconnect between happy gaming Reggie in my post preview and my serious mod Reggie that shows up when I post is a sign of how I feel when I write posts sometimes. Happy April 1.

 

[Zorcey]

Is using Fair over Uair based on the angle that's difficult for the juggled character to cover (below them for Marth and Sheik, in front for Falco, for example)? By percent I assume you mean the position you'd get out of landing each aerial at a given percentage (like at higher percents when Uair would push them too high you'd want to Fair); so against characters you'd Uair more, are there reasons you can think of to use Fair at middle percents (like 40-80%) if you're more towards the middle of the stage and couldn't set up a Ken Combo or something?

on your BF example you want to be on the top platform so they don't have access to it, but then once it's cut off or mostly so(in a way you can reach it) you can transition to other coverage.

How do you distinguish the top platform being "totally" or "mostly" cut off in this example?

Honestly the disconnect between happy gaming Reggie in my post preview and my serious mod Reggie that shows up when I post is a sign of how I feel when I write posts sometimes. Happy April 1.

Do you mean you think you come off more serious than you feel? If so, same lol. Happy April 1st.

 

[Reyjavik]

so on the topic of juggling, I actually was told by my friend I really should work on it. He says my general neutral and punish game are developing really well but my juggle game can help push me along even further.
How do you get better per say? Just lab different percent ranges? Or should I be covering options I think their Di should take? I'm unsure how to get better at juggling beyond just simple tech skill grinding in 20XX or UnclePunch

 

[Kotastic]

How do you punish a puff hard for doing rollout? Tbh it seems like it's a lot harder to punish than it should be once puff charges her rollout.

I've been developing my reaction points theory where Marth has a lot of control particularly with dtilt threats and jump in place. This has been working well with various characters I've been developing this for many characters, and I feel my neutral game has significantly improved. However, my ideas don't seem to pan out well vs. Falcon atm. Nair in place is my reaction point to discourage their aerial in, but I feel like the mixups I have are insufficient and still feel pressured.

To expand further, I just feel like I have to borderline spam nair in place because I feel Falcon's approaching aerials are very strong and obviously converts a lot vs him. Of course, the Falcon can read this and easily whiff punish me. With other characters in that position, I can easily punish their attempted whiff punish by empty jump WL back. Falcon effectively stuffs my retreat with his natural reach, so am I supposed to empty land cross up? Or maybe empty land side-b? Not too sure where to go with this where I can get the most reward off of reads. Additionally, I feel like I have a hard time confirming off of Falcon's dashes in particular because any length of his dash could mean a potential aerial, so any input there would be appreciated. Often times, I just feel like I'm swinging blindly vs Falcon.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Is using Fair over Uair based on the angle that's difficult for the juggled character to cover (below them for Marth and Sheik, in front for Falco, for example)? By percent I assume you mean the position you'd get out of landing each aerial at a given percentage (like at higher percents when Uair would push them too high you'd want to Fair); so against characters you'd Uair more, are there reasons you can think of to use Fair at middle percents (like 40-80%) if you're more towards the middle of the stage and couldn't set up a Ken Combo or something?



How do you distinguish the top platform being "totally" or "mostly" cut off in this example?



Do you mean you think you come off more serious than you feel? If so, same lol. Happy April 1st.

That's a big part of it, yes. And Fair is still good even if you can't Ken Combo because it pushes them offstage on smaller levels, or corners them/sets up a simpler punish or juggle situation if you don't. It's probably more like 55%+ for Fair based on my feeling and quick thinking.

If you stand on a platform then it's totally covered. If you're close to it or fairly able to cover it from where you are(such as with a DJ from a SH) then it's mostly covered.

I meant that I get all emotional at beginnings of posts but then calm down and center myself to write usually. So yes lol.

so on the topic of juggling, I actually was told by my friend I really should work on it. He says my general neutral and punish game are developing really well but my juggle game can help push me along even further.
How do you get better per say? Just lab different percent ranges? Or should I be covering options I think their Di should take? I'm unsure how to get better at juggling beyond just simple tech skill grinding in 20XX or UnclePunch

Hit them up like you would in a match, then see how far they can go left or right. See how many different ways they can come down and different places they can DJ, and how they may use platforms to try and escape(such as by airdodging back to them after drifting past them). Then you begin trying to cover those. 20XX can help with replication.

How do you punish a puff hard for doing rollout? Tbh it seems like it's a lot harder to punish than it should be once puff charges her rollout.

I've been developing my reaction points theory where Marth has a lot of control particularly with dtilt threats and jump in place. This has been working well with various characters I've been developing this for many characters, and I feel my neutral game has significantly improved. However, my ideas don't seem to pan out well vs. Falcon atm. Nair in place is my reaction point to discourage their aerial in, but I feel like the mixups I have are insufficient and still feel pressured.

To expand further, I just feel like I have to borderline spam nair in place because I feel Falcon's approaching aerials are very strong and obviously converts a lot vs him. Of course, the Falcon can read this and easily whiff punish me. With other characters in that position, I can easily punish their attempted whiff punish by empty jump WL back. Falcon effectively stuffs my retreat with his natural reach, so am I supposed to empty land cross up? Or maybe empty land side-b? Not too sure where to go with this where I can get the most reward off of reads. Additionally, I feel like I have a hard time confirming off of Falcon's dashes in particular because any length of his dash could mean a potential aerial, so any input there would be appreciated. Often times, I just feel like I'm swinging blindly vs Falcon.

I never tested it because I thought it was a dumb situation lol. There's probably a reactive Dtilt/maybe grab you could do, and it may depend on how full her charge gets. Timing how long it can go and how changing directions affects the time is probably important. I just get on a platform and wait for it to end, and move toward center ASAP so she can't use this to regain center.

If you're going to aerial against Falcon, it mainly has to be with aerial basically at TR, or right on top of him(unless he's cornered somewhat). But you could probably fudge it a bit with moving in and retreating aerial or whatever. If Falcon aerials in you can often hold down and grab it or just side B/attack if he delays. If he's pushing in without attacking, then you can also push in with aerials on top of him or with Dtilt. If you think he will dash back, then just move in. Less is more. Does this help?

 

[Agrathor3]

So while I was at battle of bc there was a pre weekly event and I got to play a fair few games against Zain and I got brutally destroyed (I took like 3 stocks over the course of 10 games) which is to be expected but there was something interesting about the way he played neutral it almost felt like he would do this really tight dd and because of how tight it was It seemed super ambiguous and he always seemed to do it just inside of my effective range and then if I did an approach he would just react with a dash back and either pivot/smash turn and fair or dtilt or grab depending on the situation and if I even tried to get remotely close I got grabbed like immediately and if he approached it was like he got too close for me to react and then do instant fairs or I'd just get grabbed on top of that it seemed everything I did got crouch canceled and if I got touched it was like oh there's a 80% combo. He also gave me some advice on pivoting, turns out my controller was why I stopped being able to pivot consistently and I got a lesson on pc dropping which was super hype. So I guess the question is how would you go about playing neutral against zain or a marth with a similar playstyle?