Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[FE_Hector]

I am having trouble imagining what this looks like? Do you have any specific set where I can see it done?

The biggest example I can think of is game 3 of PPMD vs Armada at the Summit. Look for the set on YouTube and you should be able to find it pretty easily. I distinctly remember him posting the phrase "Shield Breaker wins games" after that set.

 

[Hipstarr]

Hey Dr Peepee , big fan of your Marth. I notice you like to use dtilts a lot and I've been trying to add them to my neutral game. Basically, my question is: Is there any real indicators into when to use dtilts in neutral and how should I follow up a successful dtilt? Thanks!

 

[FE_Hector]

Hey Dr Peepee , big fan of your Marth. I notice you like to use dtilts a lot and I've been trying to add them to my neutral game. Basically, my question is: Is there any real indicators into when to use dtilts in neutral and how should I follow up a successful dtilt? Thanks!

Obviously I'm not PPMD, but one definite use for dtilt is kind of as a grounded, extremely quick preemptive/walling tool. If your opponent sees you making good use of cautious dtilts and fairs in addition to good movement, they'll be more likely to either make a stupid mistake, run into your move, or play more cautiously. It also buys you time to see how they want to get in and stuff like that. As far as legitimate followups for dtilt go, I don't think any exist, but dtilt grab is generally easy to get.

 

[Hipstarr]

Obviously I'm not PPMD, but one definite use for dtilt is kind of as a grounded, extremely quick preemptive/walling tool. If your opponent sees you making good use of cautious dtilts and fairs in addition to good movement, they'll be more likely to either make a stupid mistake, run into your move, or play more cautiously. It also buys you time to see how they want to get in and stuff like that. As far as legitimate followups for dtilt go, I don't think any exist, but dtilt grab is generally easy to get.

Alright, makes sense. Yeah I've been using dtilt grab against some people at locals and was wondering how legitimate that is.

 

[FE_Hector]

Alright, makes sense. Yeah I've been using dtilt grab against some people at locals and was wondering how legitimate that is.

Generally speaking, dtilt grab is gonna work best against fast fallers and heavyweights because they won't get knocked as far away. Still, a lot of people get nervous after getting hit by one or two of Fox's lasers, which is going to be a whopping 4% damage or something like that. Just landing that one dtilt for... somewhere between 8 and 11%, I believe, will work pretty well to put some mental pressure on your opponent.

 

[A_Reverie]

If your opponent sees you making good use of cautious dtilts and fairs in addition to good movement, they'll be more likely to either make a stupid mistake, run into your move, or play more cautiously. It also buys you time to see how they want to get in and stuff like that.

I think this is the core idea behind proper D-tilt usage that often gets overlooked in favor of simply landing it.

Think of D-tilt as a scouting tool rather than a damaging one. You can learn a lot about your opponent by watching what they do when you threaten them with D-tilt, or even just the thought of one with proper movement. You can learn when they shield, when they jump, what they do out of shield if you miss/hit, what they do if they get hit, how and if they'll retreat, how and if they'll advance. Look for information every time you put this move out and then use it against them.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey Dr Peepee , big fan of your Marth. I notice you like to use dtilts a lot and I've been trying to add them to my neutral game. Basically, my question is: Is there any real indicators into when to use dtilts in neutral and how should I follow up a successful dtilt? Thanks!

You want to Dtilt when the opponent wants to stay grounded and when you haven't been Dtilting much/need to make them respect it. You don't need to actually do the move much because forward movement is threatening afterward. Dtilt poke into conditioning is a true combo.

 

[GingerOs]

The biggest example I can think of is game 3 of PPMD vs Armada at the Summit. Look for the set on YouTube and you should be able to find it pretty easily. I distinctly remember him posting the phrase "Shield Breaker wins games" after that set.

That makes sense. Thanks!

 

[Kadano]

You want to Dtilt when the opponent wants to stay grounded and when you haven't been Dtilting much/need to make them respect it. You don't need to actually do the move much because forward movement is threatening afterward. Dtilt poke into conditioning is a true combo.

It’s so beautiful watching your neutral. By now, it seems to me that most of the time you just advance your dash-dance / wavedash slopes a bit more and sometimes crouch to make the opponent think you’re gonna dtilt now, then you dash-dance 1-2 more times instead, grab them when they fall down and swiftly end their stock.

(Of course there’s more to it than that, I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your play.)

 

[Dr Peepee]

I always find it poetic when we can talk about frames and such and appreciate how those perspectives also bleed into the beauty of application and human interaction. What a good game!!!

Thanks for your post Kadano =) I promise to hit you up more when I am able to fully appreciate your insight and work with it.

 

[Siccamende]

I am having trouble imagining what this looks like? Do you have any specific set where I can see it done?

Watch Game 3 of PPMD vs Armada at Smash Summit at the end. It's pretty obvious for his decision.

 

[Siccamende]

This may not be specific, but I am having a lot of difficulty in th Marth ditto matchup. As I've played many Marth players, it feels as though the basis of everything is grab f-throw tipper and then they are dead. It can go either way. It can get frustrating and I want to understand how to deal with Marth as Marth. Thanks. Dr Peepee

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Aren't you supposed to dash away > pivot grab when they DI up to avoid the shine? I'm pretty sure that you couldn't achieve that with with walking in time, at least at the lower percents. That said, I modeled my chain grabbing off of @Beat! 's chain throwing guide, which is PAL, but I play PAL. I'm pretty sure M2K does it this way too (by that I mean he does pivot grabs, not that he follows Beat!'s guide).

Yeah, there are situations in which a turn-around grab will not suffice to avoid the spacie shine. It's ~20% where you have to do a perfect pivot grab.

 

[FE_Hector]

This may not be specific, but I am having a lot of difficulty in th Marth ditto matchup. As I've played many Marth players, it feels as though the basis of everything is grab f-throw tipper and then they are dead. It can go either way. It can get frustrating and I want to understand how to deal with Marth as Marth. Thanks. Dr Peepee

One of the most important things in the ditto is to DI down and away as soon as you think they're going to fthrow. It helps stop a ton of their cheese. On a side note, please remember to try not to double post. Just edit your old message if you've got to.

 

[Siccamende]

One of the most important things in the ditto is to DI down and away as soon as you think they're going to fthrow. It helps stop a ton of their cheese. On a side note, please remember to try not to double post. Just edit your old message if you've got to.

Yeah, sorry about double posting. So I'm aware of DI Down and Away, but what I was looking for instead was understanding the neutral in Marth Dittoes. Most players just F-Smash all the time and even when I know they are going to do it, it still hits me. That's what I'm trying to figure out as well; just the neutral of the ditto.

 

[FE_Hector]

Yeah, sorry about double posting. So I'm aware of DI Down and Away, but what I was looking for instead was understanding the neutral in Marth Dittoes. Most players just F-Smash all the time and even when I know they are going to do it, it still hits me. That's what I'm trying to figure out as well; just the neutral of the ditto.

If you know they're going to do it, then just bait it out. Run up from a distance and WD back to see if you can bait it out. Just be slippery lol.

 

[_noname]

Currently have some trouble against Samus, mostly because of how it's such a strange matchup.
Haven't had much experience with her, and the only way to really play against her is through netplay.

Anyhow mostly what I've issues with are her projectile game and edgeguarding game.
Against projectiles, from far away I can safely just ftilt her rockets or shield. But if I'm way too close these options don't work anymore and the Samus player most likely will try to grab me. Wavedashing OOS seems like one good option but is there more I could do against it?

Edgeguarding Samus is also somewhat of a hassle. Being that I can't simply just get of stage and land a bair. Since I'll most likely get hit and get into a bad position. Have seen players just camping at the ledge and waiting for the Samus player to mess up their recovery and get above the ledge to get an easy fsmash kill.

Are there any solid kill setups against Samus and what do I have to do to win the neutral?
I guess since she's pretty floaty, fthrows should lead into nice combo's but at high procent, grabbing her will almost always result into the player di'ing away and upwards which won't let me reach her anymore.

 

[Sutekh]

Thanks for the info, I feel like neutral will be a lot easier with successful implementation of this advice. But how do you kill a modern puff?

Kadano's thread has a section about killing Puff at 90% and gives a bunch of ways that you can kill depending on their DI. If you study that chart, there are ways that getting a grab at 90% can give you a 50-50 shot of getting the kill.

 

[A_Reverie]

Currently have some trouble against Samus, mostly because of how it's such a strange matchup.
Haven't had much experience with her, and the only way to really play against her is through netplay.

Anyhow mostly what I've issues with are her projectile game and edgeguarding game.
Against projectiles, from far away I can safely just ftilt her rockets or shield. But if I'm way too close these options don't work anymore and the Samus player most likely will try to grab me. Wavedashing OOS seems like one good option but is there more I could do against it?

Samus is indeed a very strange match-up, and this goes for anyone facing her. Even the ditto.

Her projectiles really only serve to give her more pressure at a distance. Samus' projectiles all move very slowly, so they are easy to react to. They'll mainly serve as a way to control your pace of getting in and exerting control with your sword. Once at a certain range, Samus will likely hesitate to fire missiles or attempt to charge, just be wary of catching a surprise one as she drops from a platform or something.

Samus' grab is also quite reactable. Many of your moves will come out quicker than it does, and evasive movement will make it even harder for it to connect. At proper spacing (about the distance of a WD forward D-tilt) Samus can't afford to whiff grabs, so she'll likely attempt other things, such as crouch cancel options, WD tilts/jabs, and even dash attacks. Imagine a line going straight up from the top of Marth's head. Don't let Samus push past this line. You main goal is to make her press the wrong button (jump, for example) or bully her off stage.

Edgeguarding Samus is also somewhat of a hassle. Being that I can't simply just get of stage and land a bair. Since I'll most likely get hit and get into a bad position. Have seen players just camping at the ledge and waiting for the Samus player to mess up their recovery and get above the ledge to get an easy fsmash kill.

Are there any solid kill setups against Samus and what do I have to do to win the neutral?
I guess since she's pretty floaty, fthrows should lead into nice combo's but at high procent, grabbing her will almost always result into the player di'ing away and upwards which won't let me reach her anymore.

A good rule to follow when fighting Samus in general is to slow down. Especially when edge guarding. The amount of stall power Samus has is ridiculous, and if you get antsy, you'll drop something. What you want to try to hit Samus with off stage is center hit F-air, D-air spike, Shield Breaker, or tipper B-air/N-air at kill percents. There's also always the F-smash you mentioned if you spot them messing up. Keep all these options in mind while Samus is off stage. Trust me, you have time to wait and think.

If Samus is above the ledge and you have time, try and hit her with one of the options I listed above. You can mix up the approach by jumping straight forward, B-airing to flip yourself around, dropping to the ledge, or any mixture of these actions. Keep Samus guessing and make her unsure of whether or not to commit to a high recovery or go for the tether. Always keep tabs on whether or not her jump is available. It can be misleading with all the bombs going off. If she sees you closing in, she may try to jump and aerial you as a response, but a lot of times they'll go for the tether. If you think they're going to line up a tether, and you are still onstage, grab the ledge so they can't snap to the sweetspot. This forces them to choose between missing the sweet spot or doing some sort of wall-jumping aggressive recovery. Do a high ledge stall (down+jump then fastfall to ledge grab again) to keep iframes going. If they hesitate, you can to drop down and hit them with rising F-air. You can even catch their reel-in animation with F-air or D-air if you have good reaction time.

Best case scenario would be pressuring them low enough that they're forced to go for an Up-B. Screw attack is super linear and very easy to punish with something like a spike, D-tilt, or B-air.

As for neutral, the thing to look out for most is her crouch cancel. It's very strong and rewards her a lot. Avoid using things like SHFFL F-air/N-air at low percents. F-air is okay if you can space it well but be prepared to get the hell out of town and dash away if you're off. Don't be tempted to run in after connecting D-tilt, just be patient and continue spacing until you can get a grab.

F-throw is okay for Samus. At some percents you can get a dash attack which leads into juggles. If Samus DIs wrong you can also get tipper F-air by doing a quick dash/jump/F-air input. This combos into a falling tipper U-air. This string is worth practicing until you get a feel for when it's available to you. Alternatively, you can just throw Samus up.

Juggling Samus is very rewarding because it keeps her in the air where she can't do her crouch cancel shenanigans and can net you tons of damage so she can't crouch cancel as well even if she does manage to land. Just remember when juggling her to be very patient and cover as many options as possible. On stages with platforms, keep dash dancing and use SHORT HOP U-airs to keep her juggled. It's important to not commit to a full hop aerial unless you know it'll combo because if you whiff, it takes a long time to reach the ground to cover their reaction. Once you get them high enough, you can hop onto the platforms and repeat the process. Eventually they'll have nowhere to go but through you, drifting off to the side to get hit with F-air, burning their jump, or risking an airdodge. Juggles can lead to kills on Samus very often, so practice this a whole lot. Make them guess by mixing in empty hops and some U-tilts too. When you see an opening, go for a tipper N-air or carry them off stage with center hit F-air, which can lead to Ken combo sometimes.

Remember: Keep all of these ideas in mind at all times. Samus is a slow match up that rewards patience, which is something Marth excels at.

 

[L33thal]

Can anyone help me out? I've been really struggling with the Sheik matchup. My main tool in neutral is d-tilt and my main way of setting up the d-tilts is to wavedash forward if the Sheik is a decent distance away and put out the d-tilt. But, what usually happens is the Sheik will dash forward and shield, making me mis-space my d-tilt and shieldgrabbing me after.

I've been hearing that d-tilt is supposed to be super safe, but I don't know if I'm just doing them wrong or something. I know that I can do the whole conditioning thing with baiting shields and grabbing, but is there some sort of fundamental flaw in how I'm using d-tilt?

 

[MookieRah]

Dtilt is super safe against a grounded opponent. It is beaten by aerial attacks; however, and if your dtilt is obvious, they can simply hit you with an aerial of their choosing. In order to prevent this from happening, you gotta mix things up. That can mean several things. Here are a couple of examples:

You can dash in like you are going to do a dtilt and instead perform a fade back aerial if they jump at you. Shield stops work really well in this situation.

You can dash in, then dash away at the last second, and then after they jump you can dash forward and grab.

If you can record a video against that Sheik player you have trouble with, we could give more information on what you are doing wrong and how you can improve.

The best advice I can give to you now is that you shouldn't force a dtilt. Learn to get a feel for your opponent and their decisions through your dash dancing, and that will inform your decisions regarding when to dtilt. Carefully watch videos of PPMD at a slower than normal pace and just observe his interactions in neutral. Try to understand, as much as you can at your current level, why he does what he does, and emulate it yourself.

 

[Technetium43]

Hey, I've been getting a lot of practice in against falcon at locals, and I generally feel pretty confident in the matchup. (I haven't lost to a falcon in tournament at least) However, one thing I do have difficulty with is covering high recovery. I feel like the most I can manage without screwing up is a fair, which at best resets the situation and at worst can give them an advantageous position, or a free recovery. What's the best option to cover a falcon recovering high?

 

[FE_Hector]

Hey, I've been getting a lot of practice in against falcon at locals, and I generally feel pretty confident in the matchup. (I haven't lost to a falcon in tournament at least) However, one thing I do have difficulty with is covering high recovery. I feel like the most I can manage without screwing up is a fair, which at best resets the situation and at worst can give them an advantageous position, or a free recovery. What's the best option to cover a falcon recovering high?

I'm relatively sure that you could get a uair in most situations that you can get a fair, and after a good uair, you should be able to use positional pressure and following their DI to handle them after that and keep them in the air.

 

[Technetium43]

I'm relatively sure that you could get a uair in most situations that you can get a fair, and after a good uair, you should be able to use positional pressure and following their DI to handle them after that and keep them in the air.

Thanks, I'll keep this in mind for the future. It's my favorite matchup regardless, I just want to make sure I know the more optimal punishes. Also, another problem that I have is absolute garbage neutral vs Falco specifically. Like, my playstyle is super dependent on dash dancing to reset my mindset and position, but I feel like if I back off I either just get lasered to death, or eventually just get touched once, and every time I get touched by Falco I feel like I just kind of... explode. I think it honestly might just be the fact that there's usually a huge skill difference, because we have a bunch of mid high level spacies and like, none that are actually good for me to practice against. I also lock up a bit vs spacies so it's partially a mental thing. >_>

 

[FE_Hector]

Thanks, I'll keep this in mind for the future. It's my favorite matchup regardless, I just want to make sure I know the more optimal punishes. Also, another problem that I have is absolute garbage neutral vs Falco specifically. Like, my playstyle is super dependent on dash dancing to reset my mindset and position, but I feel like if I back off I either just get lasered to death, or eventually just get touched once, and every time I get touched by Falco I feel like I just kind of... explode. I think it honestly might just be the fact that there's usually a huge skill difference, because we have a bunch of mid high level spacies and like, none that are actually good for me to practice against. I also lock up a bit vs spacies so it's partially a mental thing. >_>

Falco's lasers have, if they connect, 4 frames of hitlag + 8 frames of hitstun, so that's only 12 frames that you're not actionable if they hit. If you've got the chance, just shield it and WD OoS to get around him. He's going to try to do one of two things: play super aggressively or super safely. Those are really the two best ways to avoid getting grabbed by Marth as Falco, so it's actually a really hard MU on both sides.

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

Ok since Genesis is banning neutral starts, I wanna know what port (besides 1) you guys would choose to get the best spawn points on each stage. Assume that you're not gonna switch ports inbetween games.

 

[FE_Hector]

Ok since Genesis is banning neutral starts, I wanna know what port (besides 1) you guys would choose to get the best spawn points on each stage. Assume that you're not gonna switch ports inbetween games.

Spawn points and stuff vary by stage, but I feel that 3 would be the best. Honestly, though, I feel you should just switch as necessary if you really want the neutral start.

 

[Stride]

Ok since Genesis is banning neutral starts, I wanna know what port (besides 1) you guys would choose to get the best spawn points on each stage. Assume that you're not gonna switch ports inbetween games.

It's not banning neutral start; you still always have to honour a request for one. It's banning implementing a neutral start by manually moving to neutral positions at the start of the game, and forcing it to be done by choosing the ports which spawn in neutral positions.

Spawn points and stuff vary by stage, but I feel that 3 would be the best. Honestly, though, I feel you should just switch as necessary if you really want the neutral start.

I also got the impression that port 3 was good, I think heavily due to the stupid spawning position it gives against port 1 on FD. Overall though it's not so great.

These are pictures of the spawning positions for each port/stage combination: http://imgur.com/a/QYBbX

All ports come with problems; a given port will have an advantage against another given port on some stages and a disadvantage on others. Because of this, you can't say which port is best without seeing which port your opponent has chosen or having an idea of which stages will be played on, preferably both.

I'd suggest aiming to choose your port after the opponent to get the appropriate port counterpick and calling for a neutral start if you can't do so. Alternatively, you could aim to secure port 1 (which also has the advantage of guaranteeing you port priority) and call for neutral start if your opponent chooses port 3 or 4; you could even go so far as to not call for the neutral start until you end up going to a stage where you'd spawn unfavourably, sticking with the normal spawning positions if you start in a neutral or advantageous position. Since port 2 has no advantageous spawns against port 1, if you have port 1 then you definitely don't want to neutral start against port 2. Ports 3 and 4 have some advantageous and some disadvantageous spawns against port 1, which is a tradeoff you may or may not want. Of course, if your opponent calls for neutral start then any kind of port selection metagame becomes moot, outside of securing port priority (which is another reason to choose port 1, assuming you don't want the reverse port priority for throws instead).

Below are tables of the distribution of neutral, advantageous, and disadvantageous spawning positions.

For the purposes of these tables, a spawn is "disadvantageous" when it's above another spawn, unless the spawns are on opposite sides of the stage (even if one of them is on a platform or closer to centre stage), in which case it's considered "neutral"; for example: port 1 vs port 3 on Stadium is considered neutral rather than disadvantageous. It's not entirely clear-cut whether some spawn are advantageous or disadvantageous, especially taking different characters into account. For example, in port 1 vs port 4 and port 2 vs port 3 on Stadium, the player on the ground has the advantage of being beneath the opponent but the disadvantage of being against the ledge. If the player on the platform can put out a threatening option from that position (the most extreme example probably being a Shine from Fox) or the player on the ground can threaten/control the platform well, then it forces both players to commit immediately; if both are true then the risk and reward is high for both players.

By Stage
Yoshi's Story

|Port 1|Port 2|Port 3|Port 4
Port 1|X|Neutral|Advantageous|Disadvantageous
Port 2|Neutral|X|Advantageous|Disadvantageous
Port 3|Disadvantageous|Disadvantageous|X|Disadvantageous
Port 4|Advantageous|Advantageous|Advantageous|X

Fountain of Dreams

|Port 1|Port 2|Port 3|Port 4
Port 1|X|Neutral|Disadvantageous|Advantageous
Port 2|Neutral|X|Disadvantageous|Advantageous
Port 3|Advantageous|Advantageous|X|Advantageous
Port 4|Disadvantageous|Disadvantageous|Disadvantageous|X

Pokémon Stadium

|Port 1|Port 2|Port 3|Port 4
Port 1|X|Neutral|Neutral|Disadvantageous
Port 2|Neutral|X|Disadvantageous|Neutral
Port 3|Neutral|Advantageous|X|Neutral
Port 4|Advantageous|Neutral|Neutral|X

Battlefield

|Port 1|Port 2|Port 3|Port 4
Port 1|X|Advantageous|Advantageous|Advantageous
Port 2|Disadvantageous|X|Disadvantageous|Disadvantageous
Port 3|Disadvantageous|Advantageous|X|Neutral
Port 4|Disadvantageous|Advantageous|Neutral|X

Dream Land 64

|Port 1|Port 2|Port 3|Port 4
Port 1|X|Advantageous|Advantageous|Advantageous
Port 2|Disadvantageous|X|Advantageous|Neutral
Port 3|Disadvantageous|Disadvantageous|X|Disadvantageous
Port 4|Disadvantageous|Neutral|Advantageous|X

Final Destination

|Port 1|Port 2|Port 3|Port 4
Port 1|X|Neutral|Disadvantageous|Neutral
Port 2|Neutral|X|Neutral|Disadvantageous
Port 3|Advantageous|Neutral|X|Neutral
Port 4|Neutral|Advantageous|Neutral|X

Totals
Overall

Port|Total neutral spawns|Total advantageous spawns|Total disadvantageous spawns
Port 1|6|8|4
Port 2|7|3|8
Port 3|5|6|7
Port 4|6|7|5

Versus Port 1

Port|Total neutral spawns|Total advantageous spawns|Total disadvantageous spawns
Port 1|X|X|X
Port 2|4|0|2
Port 3|1|2|3
Port 4|1|2|3

Versus Port 2

Port|Total neutral spawns|Total advantageous spawns|Total disadvantageous spawns
Port 1|4|2|0
Port 2|X|X|X
Port 3|1|3|2
Port 4|2|3|1

Versus Port 3

Port|Total neutral spawns|Total advantageous spawns|Total disadvantageous spawns
Port 1|1|3|2
Port 2|1|2|3
Port 3|X|X|X
Port 4|3|2|1

Versus Port 4

Port|Total neutral spawns|Total advantageous spawns|Total disadvantageous spawns
Port 1|1|3|2
Port 2|2|1|3
Port 3|3|1|2
Port 4|X|X|X

Port 3 has an extremely advantageous position against port 1 on FD (trapping them at the ledge), as does port 4 against port 2.

I'd say port 1 is the best port, overall. It generally has neutral or advantageous spawns, with few disadvantageous ones (partially due to never spawning on the top platform). It is never disadvantageous against port 2; unless you value having more advantageous spawns over having no disadvantageous spawns, you should use port 1 against port 2. Port 1 vs port 2 is the only port combination for which one of the ports (port 1) has no disadvantageous spawning positions on any stages.

Port 2 is generally bad against everything, except arguably port 1 (which it's always worse than or neutral with, meaning there's no reason not to call for neutral start as port 2 vs port 1). Ports 3 and 4 have two more advantageous spawns against port 1 than port 2 does at the cost of also having one additional disadvantageous spawn. I'd say you should just always call for neutral start against port 1, unless you want to go for the cheese on FD/Stadium with port 3/port 4 at the cost of having the worse spawning positions on other stages.

Both port 4 vs port 2 and port 3 vs port 4 have only one stage with a disadvantageous spawning position (Fountain of Dreams and Dream Land 64 respectively), so if you can ban that stage or if you know you won't play on it then you should choose that port combination.

 

[L33thal]

I'm having a hard time approaching against Falco. I feel like his lasers lock down a lot of my options and all I can do is fair at a bad spacing, which gets shieldgrabbed to up-throw. And if I try to wait and respond to Falco's approach with dash away or wavedash back, I lose stage control and have less room to run and I'm at the mercy of Falco's aggressive advantage because he can set up approaches with lasers. Is there a good way to deal with this?

 

[Life]

I'm having a hard time approaching against Falco. I feel like his lasers lock down a lot of my options and all I can do is fair at a bad spacing, which gets shieldgrabbed to up-throw. And if I try to wait and respond to Falco's approach with dash away or wavedash back, I lose stage control and have less room to run and I'm at the mercy of Falco's aggressive advantage because he can set up approaches with lasers. Is there a good way to deal with this?

The goal is to get Falco to misspace lasers. Getting hit by a stray laser is only a problem if Falco's close enough to capitalize. You can like CC dtilt, CC dashdance grab, CC jab... don't have to shield lasers if you don't want to.

 

[AirFair]

Just take the laser and move out of the way or jab the aerial. I think you should shield if you are at the edge only, since you won't have many options anyway.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You can't really approach Falco like other characters. You can stalemate him and then work your way in afterward though.

 

[BRUJO~]

You can't really approach Falco like other characters. You can stalemate him and then work your way in afterward though.

What exactly do you mean by "you can stalemate him"?

 

[Dr Peepee]

keep him from coming in. PS and take laser jab and dash back pivot grab are good ways to do this

 

[1MachGO]

Hey PP, this is somewhat off topic, but what are your thoughts on Scar/Toph saying that Armada does not enjoy playing against you (beginning of your top 8 set vs. Armada at Genesis)? It seemed surprising since Armada has alluded otherwise when you were unable to compete in tournaments like TBH5.

On a more Marth related note, I noticed that you opted to nair a lot mid combo at G3. Do you think Marth should be getting the opponent offstage more and juggling less or is it just something you are experimenting with?

 

[AirFair]

Dr Peepee Another small vs falco thing

if you are at the edge, and you are being lasered, do you think shield becomes stronger in this scenario? you don't have dash back after laser and you can fair OoS or roll if they go in, or shieldgrab. I would sometimes try and wait for them to go in and jab the aerial, but then some will just laser in my face and then grab or something.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Hey PP, this is somewhat off topic, but what are your thoughts on Scar/Toph saying that Armada does not enjoy playing against you (beginning of your top 8 set vs. Armada at Genesis)? It seemed surprising since Armada has alluded otherwise when you were unable to compete in tournaments like TBH5.

On a more Marth related note, I noticed that you opted to nair a lot mid combo at G3. Do you think Marth should be getting the opponent offstage more and juggling less or is it just something you are experimenting with?

Well Armada could be understanding why I wasn't competing and still not like to play me if that's what you mean. I've heard the same thing from other people so I suppose it's true. In time I will act on this and do some cheap stuff =p

Dr Peepee Another small vs falco thing

if you are at the edge, and you are being lasered, do you think shield becomes stronger in this scenario? you don't have dash back after laser and you can fair OoS or roll if they go in, or shieldgrab. I would sometimes try and wait for them to go in and jab the aerial, but then some will just laser in my face and then grab or something.

You can jab their laser approach before the laser hits if they come in hard like that. Unless you mean waiting after doing a farther away laser then you'd have to wait to hit that.

Anyway, you are forced to shield there more but you can also use platforms in this instance and retreat to the edge as well as dash under approaching nairs occasionally. Take laser jab is still good and you can still act between lasers anyway.

Marth's roll sucks LOL that probably won't work too often.

 

[Brave Little DeCoste'R]

Here's some Puff technology I used at Genesis.

https://youtu.be/wqLErmrJ9xE

 

[MookieRah]

I just realized that I don't double jump uair > land on platform > fsmash, and would like to practice this. Does anyone know what percentages this is viable against top tiers? It'd be good to know going in.

 

[FE_Hector]

MookieRah I might be wrong, but I feel like whether or not that would work at all is kind of DI-dependent. I haven't messed around with it at all, though. I would assume that this would work (on Fox and Falco at least) somewhere around 50-80%. (I'm going to be completely honest, I thought this was a Falco thread when I first read it and thought you were crazy. Too little sleep :/)

Anyways, Dr Peepee Do you have any idea what the next tourney you'll be attending is? I know even Armada was complaining about being drained from G3, so obviously I'm expecting a bit of a wait lol. Just curious if you have any idea yet.