Your SDI is potentially fine, but you may just need to hit Peach with your up-B so she can't Dair you. Sometimes Dair and up-B trade if she goes too far out and then you can fall and up-B again for free.
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Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy
- Thread starter Cactuar
- Start date
Hi PP and marth friends,
This is a teams question and a marth/falco question. One of my training partners and I have teamed together a bunch of times and have done quite well at most events. I consider myself a good teams player, and he is a very technical fox (in fact he leaves me in the dust most of the time, lucky to be his partner). Recently I've been putting in effort to pick up and potentially switch mains to falco, but our marth-fox team works really well. For the short-term upcoming events (the next rubicon) I plan on staying marth, but by smash n splash this june my falco could definitely be tournament ready.
What are your thoughts on dual-maining and/or switching mains? Personally, I feel like I've hit a wall with marth and I can't find room to improve fast enough to keep up with people that I play against. At the same time, I don't know a lot of the intricacies of the falco MUs the same way I do with marth. In the long run, I think it's very good for me, but I'm mostly worried about my teams performance if I am playing more falco that marth--espcially if I go falco in singles and then switch to marth for doubles. I don't know if there's a right answer, but your advice is welcome. Can falco-fox do as well as marth-fox in teams? Thanks a lot, this is a big issue for me.
This is a teams question and a marth/falco question. One of my training partners and I have teamed together a bunch of times and have done quite well at most events. I consider myself a good teams player, and he is a very technical fox (in fact he leaves me in the dust most of the time, lucky to be his partner). Recently I've been putting in effort to pick up and potentially switch mains to falco, but our marth-fox team works really well. For the short-term upcoming events (the next rubicon) I plan on staying marth, but by smash n splash this june my falco could definitely be tournament ready.
What are your thoughts on dual-maining and/or switching mains? Personally, I feel like I've hit a wall with marth and I can't find room to improve fast enough to keep up with people that I play against. At the same time, I don't know a lot of the intricacies of the falco MUs the same way I do with marth. In the long run, I think it's very good for me, but I'm mostly worried about my teams performance if I am playing more falco that marth--espcially if I go falco in singles and then switch to marth for doubles. I don't know if there's a right answer, but your advice is welcome. Can falco-fox do as well as marth-fox in teams? Thanks a lot, this is a big issue for me.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
djmath
I don't know about doubles, but I personally have already fully made the switch from maining Marth to Falco. In all honesty, I think he's a better character. It took me almost 2 months to fully decide to make the switch, and I already know PPMD doesn't really agree with dual maining. Do what you feel is right, man. I switched between the two and have no regrets.
Abet117
Smash Rookie
Can anyone provide some insight with fighting peach when she has already pulled a turnip? I know the matchup pretty well but once I mess up and she is able to pull a turnip they are pretty annoying. I've tweeted PPMD about it and he says he likes Jab vs them. I've also seen Marth players grab then release immediately or DD. Any other ways to deal with them? Also anything things to keep in mind when she is Grounded or floating with one?
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
If Peach has a turnip, you have two options: stay a fair distance away and just bait her out or get so close to her that she doesn't feel comfortable throwing it. I would personally opt for the first option and then move in when she's feeling defenseless.
GoldbergP
Smash Rookie
If my opponent is playing falco, what stage would be the best counterpick besides final destination?
Abet117
Smash Rookie
This is what I tend to do but what I've noticed is that I give up a lot of stage since I'm retreating. Then peach pushes towards center stage. It works sometimes but I was more interested in the second option. When I'm near peach with a turnip what can I do and what can't she do? I'm not sure if she can still attack out of shield with it unless she throws it. Could I grab without fear of d smash?
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
I actually haven't tested that much with Peach. She's amusing for me to play, but haven't done a lot of testing. If you give up too much stage positioning, that can't be good. Threaten her space, and just jump over or dash past/under the turnip when she throws them. Baiting it out doesn't actually mean that you have to out distance it. Just remember that she's super vulnerable when she's picking one up.
Sycorax
Smash Ace
When Peach has a turnip, she can't dsmash, she can't grab, she can't dash attack. To be entirely truthful, she can't use any grounded A attack, but those three are the standard scariest. She can use her special moves, but I wouldn't worry about those
When she's in the air she can't use her aerials unless she is floating. This also means her fastest options OoS are to throw the turnip or do an insta-float nair. Both are 10 frames. Not slow, but not particularly fast either. So when you're close to Peach, all you have to worry about is the turnip throw and floating aerials. You can ASDI down a regular turnip up to 91% (winky face up to 72%). With ASDI down, at the closest range, regular turnips are -5 on hit (winky -4). Add one for each frame of travel of the turnip (-4, -3, -2, etc.).
So like, outspace the float aerials and ASDI down the turnip.
Roche_CL
Smash Journeyman
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2006
- Messages
- 410
Also you can block the turnips, then wavedash oos.
Also you can Counter if you predict turnip -> Fair or something.
Never grab them!, unless you are m2k and can grab-drop them in 2 frames.
The safer imo is just baiting her to throw it, i would dash backwards, or jump away, then regain your position and be fast enough to stay in the position where she can't take one without being punished.
https://youtu.be/zxfIIcfNQNg?t=7907
2:11:46 tournament set, me vs a peach, i think i did a nice job preventing the turnip pull, use mostly Dtilt to do so.
Also you can Counter if you predict turnip -> Fair or something.
Never grab them!, unless you are m2k and can grab-drop them in 2 frames.
The safer imo is just baiting her to throw it, i would dash backwards, or jump away, then regain your position and be fast enough to stay in the position where she can't take one without being punished.
https://youtu.be/zxfIIcfNQNg?t=7907
2:11:46 tournament set, me vs a peach, i think i did a nice job preventing the turnip pull, use mostly Dtilt to do so.
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I'm going to disagree with the last couple of posts regarding fighting Peach with a turnip.
Firstly, turnips are what make this matchup manageable for Peach. When you're up close, Peach has a limited number of options, but she will make it difficult to get up close by THROWING the turnip.
Don't be afraid to catch turnips. It's easy. Press Z.
When you're on the ledge and she's throwing turnips, you can jump up with a Z-catch, or you can Fair the turnip and run under it.
Don't shield turnips. You won't have any frame advantage. Just dash away and reset to neutral if shield is your other option.
At 0%, you can CC a turnip and get a grab.
If Peach is in the air with a turnip, take note of how she likes to approach. Does she come toward you with an Fair? Cancel float and chuck turnip? Retreating in float and aerial? Retreat and turnip-toss? If she comes toward you, rising Fair or approaching Nair are good options. If she retreats, dash and catch her landing but be prepared to avoid the turnip.
I did an in-depth vs. Peach analysis here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtt7Wu6a2aM
lloD is a top 5 Peach. Here are a couple of sets me vs. him from last week:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OopEMOFOhzQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uW_wisTqis
Firstly, turnips are what make this matchup manageable for Peach. When you're up close, Peach has a limited number of options, but she will make it difficult to get up close by THROWING the turnip.
Don't be afraid to catch turnips. It's easy. Press Z.
When you're on the ledge and she's throwing turnips, you can jump up with a Z-catch, or you can Fair the turnip and run under it.
Don't shield turnips. You won't have any frame advantage. Just dash away and reset to neutral if shield is your other option.
At 0%, you can CC a turnip and get a grab.
If Peach is in the air with a turnip, take note of how she likes to approach. Does she come toward you with an Fair? Cancel float and chuck turnip? Retreating in float and aerial? Retreat and turnip-toss? If she comes toward you, rising Fair or approaching Nair are good options. If she retreats, dash and catch her landing but be prepared to avoid the turnip.
I did an in-depth vs. Peach analysis here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qtt7Wu6a2aM
lloD is a top 5 Peach. Here are a couple of sets me vs. him from last week:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OopEMOFOhzQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0uW_wisTqis
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
I would like to know this, as well. It seems to me that Marth ought to win, but almost all Marth players are bound to suffer from lack of experience vs a top Pika player.Dr Peepee I'm pretty sure you tweeted out that your challenge set against Axe at the Summit was mostly so you could get firsthand info/experience for that matchup. As of right now, what do you think about Marth-Pika?
EDIT: I'm also curious about what stages to ban/counterpick against Pikachu.
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I think Marth wins something like 6-4(Axe said something like 55-45 on ask.fm but I'm inclined to think his perspective may be skewed by how hard he beats Marths). I think Marths are.....pretty weak at it and do not have a lot of good information. Myself included. I think what should happen is Marth can pretty routinely shut Pika down with Fair(some Dtilt) zoning and also hit way harder off of Uthrow but I don't fully know how to do either. I know for Fair zoning I can do a pretty good job of it but Axe has some weird mixups I didn't know about I need to review(may have just been mental fog I honestly don't currently know). For Uthrow, Axe suggested Marth juggle more from the side vs Pikachu since Dair is pretty likely to trade with/beat out Uair(not so much Utilt but that can be harder to time and pika is moving). Fair is meant to be used more in this case. I think M2K used some FH Fair into (DJ?) Uair stuff I vaguely remember him doing to Axe when I saw it on some mvg stream with Axe when M2K was in AZ but I don't really remember it now. At any rate, Pikachu's limited aerial mobility combined with weak airdodge mobility combined with Dair startup combined with his weight should still make him easier to juggle it's just practicing and knowing the options and percents.
To Smash God, I think Yoshis is what Pika as a character tends to fear most since he can't get away from sword and can't abuse his recovery. Modern Marths tend to dislike smaller stages since they can't solve their problems with movement but switching to zoning focus is the answer here ESPECIALLY vs Pikachu. My pick for a ban is DL since Marth definitely can't punish as well with platforms interrupting juggles and combos and gives Pika more neutral options(not the biggest deal this part but still a pain). I think getting more room to move is just giving Pikachu more chances to mess you up as well since knowledge on punish is still lopsided.
Oh yeah, for edgeguarding let me say this: stand close to the edge, wait a moment, THEN swing. People either stood too far away or swung too early/late when Pika had to up-B before I did what I did consistently(?) at Summit. The only exception is YS when Pikachu can ride the side wall and grab the edge but you can still manipulate this.
Thanks! So assuming Pika bans YS and I ban DL, how can we expect stage CPs to go? Do we still like FD in this matchup? Does Pika take us to BF or Fountain?
FD is a gahhhd like stage vs pikachu. FoD is a pretty difficult stage for Marth vs Pika imho, the awkward platform heights can mess with Marth trying to zone and his juggles. It can also potentially mess up pika's aerial approaches though. Ultimately I guess it just comes down to how comfortable you are on that stage really. But F that stage 4 real. Just my two cents.
AirFair
Marth tho
What about cp'ing to stadium? are the transformations in pika's favor?
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Don't be Zhu's Falco vs Axe on the Rock Transformation... PLEASE. I'd think that the water and grass transformations could go either way, but generally in Marth's favor cuz juggling with Pika's uair doesn't lead to that much damage and Marth can probably SDI a lot of it really effectively to make it harder to get followups. Neutral should be in Marth's favor, but just a little bit. Those are just my thoughts though
AirFair
AirFair
Since FoD is small, it makes sense for Marth to like it. Remember, small levels means you can abuse your range advantage and movement is emphasized less, which is already the point of the matchup. Marth must be concerned about landing on platforms when doing Fairs/jumps though. The advantage is similar to when Marth can get a juggle on other levels in that they can't escape his sword. Using this logic, you would want BF next(maybe FD depending on how much BF breaks juggles actually), and PS would be after BF/FD probably.
Don't force anything. You can dash back when she weaves forward to get a sense of the pacing for the matchup. It's slow. If she gets a bit above you then you can running Fair. Sometimes you want to Dtilt poke her landing. You can pivot grab her approaching Bair. Also, count her jumps.How do you approach the puff matchup against a threatening puff player
ISG
Smash Rookie
- Joined
- Jun 20, 2015
- Messages
- 2
Thanks for the info, I feel like neutral will be a lot easier with successful implementation of this advice. But how do you kill a modern puff?
Count her jumps and you'll find patterns. She can't recover very easily due to jumps gaining less height and she runs out the longer she uses jumps. This is for when you have her offstage. Beyond that, you have throw into pivot tipper as well as counting jumps and getting Utilt kills. Those are my main ways of doing it.
townes
Smash Apprentice
I'm reading through this entire thread for the chance of finding small gems of knowledge and situation specific stuff. I'm at page 25 right now and most of it is ancient dribble and M2K calling people an idiot. Are there any OGs that have been here since the beginning? Where does the good information start? I know it's in here somewhere.
AirFair
Marth tho
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8/edit
this has some good posts. And you could probably search the surrounding pages.
this has some good posts. And you could probably search the surrounding pages.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
townes
I specifically chose a date to start compiling data from this thread when I compiled the link above. I did it because I wanted data I collected to be relevant to the meta at the time. What I did is essentially what it sounds like you want to do, simply compile all of the useful data from this thread and organize it.
If you choose to do so, I think it would help a lot more than you think, but be sure to give start at a point no earlier than early to mid 2014. That way stuff is fairly recent, so still relevant with the meta. You can still glean what you can from my old document, as it would be a good jump off point, but keep in mind that's pretty old data now.
Making that doc really upgraded me from an old-school mindset into a more modern approach, and I highly recommend it. Honestly, I'm quite surprised that nobody has done this before me, or after, because it's a good way to get up to date, and it's great for the community as well.
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townes
Smash Apprentice
Thanks boys. I think I'm just gunna read your stuff MookieRah.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Dr Peepee
You've spoken a lot before about people's natural rhythms and how important mixing up your rhythm a bit is when attempting to trip up your opponent. Is tuning in to your opponents rhythm a portion of getting reads in your opinion?EDIT: Also, Leffen said on stream yesterday that he's just going to use shield pivot grabs from now on instead of true pivot grabs when he wants a pivot grab as Marth. I don't think that this would be too useful you given how solid your pivot grabs already are, but what do you think of the idea?
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Might you provide a link to the set you're referring to? Marth vs Fox on FD always is especially interesting to me.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
How do you go about the inputs of a shield pivots? It seems like that would be more difficult than a normal pivot. I can totally understand going for shield pivot aerials over pivot aerials, but not so much with grabs, unless there is something that I don't know about it.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
I'm pretty sure it's just turn -> R -> A. He said he likes it cuz it's more lenient in terms of frame data.
Yes to the rhythm question. Generally, this sort of thing you learn after more mechanical stuff, so I hesitate to talk about it much right now.
EDIT: Also, Leffen said on stream yesterday that he's just going to use shield pivot grabs from now on instead of true pivot grabs when he wants a pivot grab as Marth. I don't think that this would be too useful you given how solid your pivot grabs already are, but what do you think of the idea?
I don't know why Leffen would do that but I'm sure he believes there's an advantage to it. Doesn't make sense to me immediately though.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Alright, I was just looking for confirmation about my interpretation of what you'd said. I'm not looking to find hard reads or anything at my level, just trying to build up my storehouse of Melee-related knowledge.
I'm pretty sure that Leffen said he prefers the shield pivot grab because it has a 2-frame window instead of the 1-frame window that true pivots have. Something about not thinking people should actually put the effort into learning to do normal pivot grabs when the other method is, in his mind, easier.
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
FE_Hector
Oh, duh xD. I was way overthinking the inputs! Yeah, that seems very simple to do.
I personally think that there is a great deal of merit to Leffen's idea. If your execution of faux pivot grabs is 99% and your execution for true pivot grabs is 90%, you will likely see more detrimental results going for a true pivot. I'm willing to bet adding a frame or two would not alter the outcome of most exchanges in the game. That would be really hard to test though...
Honestly we need someone like @Kadano to weigh in here.
I also feel that there is A LOT of tech overlap with shield stop techniques and Falco powershielding techniques. It's literally the same thing, assuming you are going with the turn at the last second and PS method.
I would be hesitant to remove pivot grabs entirely though, at least for chain grabbing spacies. I find that it's easy to land those due to the fact that it's so static, if that makes any sense.
FE_Hector
Smash Lord
Well, technically you're not pivot grabbing while CGing spacies unless you elected to dash at some point. Turnaround grabs are actually way easier.
Oh, duh xD. I was way overthinking the inputs! Yeah, that seems very simple to do.
I personally think that there is a great deal of merit to Leffen's idea. If your execution of faux pivot grabs is 99% and your execution for true pivot grabs is 90%, you will likely see more detrimental results going for a true pivot. I'm willing to bet adding a frame or two would not alter the outcome of most exchanges in the game. That would be really hard to test though...
Honestly we need someone like @Kadano to weigh in here.
I also feel that there is A LOT of tech overlap with shield stop techniques and Falco powershielding techniques. It's literally the same thing, assuming you are going with the turn at the last second and PS method.
I would be hesitant to remove pivot grabs entirely though, at least for chain grabbing spacies. I find that it's easy to land those due to the fact that it's so static, if that makes any sense.
I don't really struggle with pivot grabs but whatever works I guess lol
Siccamende
Smash Rookie
Dr Peepee
I've watched a bunch of your sets, and I've noticed that you use Sheild Breaker as a DI mixup. Do you recommend doing this pretty often, because usually most players would DI away with the intent of being hit by a F-air. Also, I personally think Shield Breaker could use to catch their DJ if you follow them offstage: If they Up-B lower/around the same height, it will still connect. Was this your intention of using Shield Breaker? Or am I wrong?
You're right on both counts! I think it is totally worth doing for those reasons. The only thing left to do is learn the setups to make that most reliable, such as Fair into DJ SB so you can catch their DI up buffered jump.
GingerOs
Smash Rookie
I am having trouble imagining what this looks like? Do you have any specific set where I can see it done?
MookieRah
Kinda Sorta OK at Smash
Aren't you supposed to dash away > pivot grab when they DI up to avoid the shine? I'm pretty sure that you couldn't achieve that with with walking in time, at least at the lower percents. That said, I modeled my chain grabbing off of @Beat! 's chain throwing guide, which is PAL, but I play PAL. I'm pretty sure M2K does it this way too (by that I mean he does pivot grabs, not that he follows Beat!'s guide).
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