Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[A_Reverie]

i.....don't want to talk about summit for a while. still bothered by it.

i have a falco thread but I don't believe I can control that thread as easily.

I just need to get my energy issues resolved then I can teach much more about everything.

This is why I sincerely hope Marth players improve. We need more representation at the top level. We have to really try and learn to analyze and even teach like you do so that Marth's development can speed up. We need to hear more from other points of view so that you can chill without people still wondering about things xD

Let's get out there and win some tournaments, guys.

 

[balloonpower]

What are good grab followups vs peach?

 

[A_Reverie]

What are good grab followups vs peach?

Forward throw is good in most cases. At lower percents if they don't DI properly you can catch them with a rising tipper F-air and begin a punish. Something I've been doing is hitting the F-air, landing with a tipper U-air to pop them up slightly, then either dash back and pivot a tipper F-smash or continue with another aerial string. If they DI down and away they can escape but at higher percents you can try to reach them with a dash attack, which you can most likely follow up with a U-air. At that point it's about keeping Peach above you and racking up damage. If you can bully her off stage that's even better.

Up throw is good if you just want to do the juggling that I just described. If your back is to the ledge and you get a grab, you can either down throw or back throw. Back throw is a decent mixup at higher percents because with bad DI they are put in a position to be threatened by F-smash, which in case you can expect to take their jump and then B-air them out of it. If they DI correctly (away) you can still catch them with B-air, it's just harder. D-throw has the advantage of putting Peach farther out, but you need to be prepared to wall her out shortly afterward.

 

[EZPZ]

Does anyone have advice on dealing with falco's lasers? I understand a lot of the options for when falco approaches after a laser(dashing back after taking the hit, side-b, jab, nair, fsmash), but idk how to approach/take space against falco's that laser in place.

First thing you have to realize is that lasers don't really hurt that bad. They do like 2% damage. So that isn't what makes them good, what makes them so good is the stun. It gives Falco freedom to move and approach without having to fear being hit. The first thing you have to do to deal with lasers is make sure they don't completely lock you up. A lot of players will get shot at with one laser, and shield that laser and just continue to hold shield for however many more lasers or Falco's aerial approaches. If you are sitting in shield because of one laser, Falco won. If you can't powershield the laser, shield and immediately wavedash out, jump out of shield on to a platform, don't shield to begin with and just take the laser and keep dashing, jump over the laser on to a platform, whatever you have to do to prevent being completely stuck in place by lasers.

As for if Falco is just shl'ing in place...you don't necessarily have to approach. Simply waiting is a viable option in melee. If he is gaining nothing but 2 damage then that is a very minimal loss you should be ok with taking. If he isn't approaching, that doesn't mean you have to. Camp a platform if he is lasering the ground, make him switch up his laser pattern if he wants to keep hitting you. If you make him start having to full hop or double jump to laser you, there are going to be holes you can take advantage of to gain ground or get a hit. Don't forget lasers are a commitment for Falco. They take time to get out that he can't do any other move out of. If you catch him in between lasers he is pretty defenseless.

Now I am still decently new, so I may not be entirely accurate on everything or know every option, but as a Falco main and Marth secondary this is my general idea of how it should play out. If anyone has anything to add or correct feel free.

 

[balloonpower]

wait so is bthrow bair gaurenvteed?

 

[A_Reverie]

wait so is bthrow bair gaurenvteed?

Most things aren't "guaranteed." It's better if you approach situations with this in mind and with broader expectations. What I mentioned was a mix-up, a sort of DI trap. For example, let's say you B-throw peach at 65% and she DIs toward you. In this case, unless she jumps very soon after hitstun ends, she's in danger of getting hit by F-smash. As a result, you can take her jump with little effort and then begin to push her offstage (B-air). If she doesn't jump, she eats an F-smash.

 

[DeadPigeon]

wait so is bthrow bair gaurenvteed?

Please also keep in mind that anything that is guaranteed is dependent on the opposing character and their percent, so try keep that in mind when asking questions.

 

[AstroHamsta]

Advice on Marth vs Fox. TONS OF ADVICE.

 

[FE_Hector]

Advice on Marth vs Fox. TONS OF ADVICE.

First off: your neutral is literally the single most important thing in this MU. Marth's very presence threatens three things: JC grab, fair, and dtilt. Use super slippery movement to stay pretty close to them without committing to anything. PPMD has said before that less swinging as Marth is more. The hardest part about doing this properly is that Fox is fast and not that big, so getting into his face without committing to anything or getting hit is actually pretty difficult. Just remember to DD and WD quite a lot and not put yourself in a punishable situation. Past that, you really just have to be sure that you don't drop punishes. CG whatever you can, fsmash or utilt/uair to rack up whatever damage you can.

When they're offstage, they should die unless they have the chance to Firefox at an unpredictable angle. Double jab -> pivot WD back to grab ledge -> dropdown rising bair should handle sideBs. Clever Shield Breakers or fairs should handle them if they try to Firefox in most situations. Like PPMD said... Shield Breaker wins games :D

 

[DeadPigeon]

When they're offstage, they should die unless they have the chance to Firefox at an unpredictable angle. Double jab -> pivot WD back to grab ledge -> dropdown rising bair should handle sideBs.

There's no pivot here

 

[FE_Hector]

There's no pivot here

You're facing the ledge when you double jab. If you opt for fair, you can just run off and fair, but if you opt for bair, you should grab ledge first. The fastest way to manage that is a pivot WD back. Just because you're not moving doesn't mean you don't pivot.

 

[DeadPigeon]

Just because you're not moving doesn't mean you don't pivot.

Yes it does. If you're standing still it's a turn, not a pivot. You can ONLY pivot out of dash.

 

[FE_Hector]

Yes it does. If you're standing still it's a turn, not a pivot. You can ONLY pivot out of dash.

Except that almost everybody says that you have to pivot grab in order to continue a chaingrab on Fox. I'm fairly sure it was even mentioned on stream at the Summit.

 

[A_Reverie]

Except that almost everybody says that you have to pivot grab in order to continue a chaingrab on Fox. I'm fairly sure it was even mentioned on stream at the Summit.

At around 18% if they do the slight DI to land inside of you, you have to do the pivot grab because you dash forward to position correctly then pivot to turn and grab them before shine/jump comes out. This is different than what you mention doing at the ledge. Timing it tight enough will make it look like a pivot but practically you can just do a quick DD and WD back then fastfall to snap the ledge. I suppose the confusion comes from wording it the way you did, making it sound like a pivot was required. I doubt you meant for that, but I hope this clears it up regardless.

 

[TFS | Zeb]

I've only ever seen the term pivot used to describe doing an action out of a dash while turning. If you're just turning around, that's not a pivot.

On that subject, I don't think you need to dash to do the pivot grab. Watching M2K do his FD chain grabs, I'm pretty sure he just walks forward very slightly before grabbing behind him. Dash pivot grab works fine too, though.

 

[FE_Hector]

Okay, thanks for clearing that up, everybody. I suppose I just meant you turn around and WD back as quickly as the game will let you.

 

[DeadPigeon]

At around 18% if they do the slight DI to land inside of you, you have to do the pivot grab because you dash forward to position correctly then pivot to turn and grab them before shine/jump comes out.

You need to pivot grab on no DI as well.

Timing it tight enough will make it look like a pivot but practically you can just do a quick DD and WD back then fastfall to snap the ledge. I suppose the confusion comes from wording it the way you did, making it sound like a pivot was required. I doubt you meant for that, but I hope this clears it up regardless.

To clarify, a pivot in this situation is IMPOSSIBLE. There are three ways this could play out, none of which involves a pivot.
1) Smash Turn away from ledge -> wd to ledge one frame later
2) Tilt Turn away from ledge -> wd to ledge 7 frames later
3) Dash away from ledge -> wd to ledge one or more frames later

On that subject, I don't think you need to dash to do the pivot grab. Watching M2K do his FD chain grabs, I'm pretty sure he just walks forward very slightly before grabbing behind him. Dash pivot grab works fine too, though.

This is semantics, but the grab with walk would be a turn around grab, not a pivot. You must be dashing to pivot.

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee When I asked about answering Falco questions, you said "i have a falco thread but I don't believe I can control that thread as easily." I know the thread title says "Questions about Tiara Guy", but would you mind Falco questions in here?

 

[Dr Peepee]

HMMM

i think we should keep this to marth unless you have broad questions that people can use for multiple characters or use to their advantage. things like "what is a good pacing to play falco at?" is one example of this kind of question.

 

[FE_Hector]

Alright, well, not what I'd originally intended to ask, but what are your thoughts of the Falco-Marth MU in general? I was practicing it with a friend who's considerably better than me at a tourney a few weeks ago, and somebody said that it's just an impossible MU because of Falco's lasers + combos and Marth's DD + CGs. What do you think each character should be doing/looking for to beat each other in the neutral game, and what would some good counter-strategies be?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think the simple answer is no one knows even years later how to deal with Falco lasers. It always feels like you simply need Falco to mess up 1 time per stock in order to win. Spend the other 90% of the match under pressure.

That is unless you have the ability to really not get messed up which I think is the fault most people have. You deal with lasers by knowing how to get hit by them. The ultimate thing in several cases might be a powershield. Yet, that will not always happen. In which case, how do you deal with a laser on your shield? You have to know how to act as quickly as possible out of it. Never get caught dropping shield and always wavedash out of shield. Additionally, if you do get hit by a laser you need to not get messed up by the loss of tempo. As in you should be able to know the exact time you are in hitstun, then immediately be able to continue the action right away.

A good example I think is this say you jump towards Falco in a short hop, then get hit by a laser while in mid air. The moment that happens I will Fair right away. The stun on lasers is not that long. Usually, what I think trips people up is that after getting hit by a laser they wait too long even after the stun is over with in order to make some action. The other fault people make is that they blindly flail about after getting hit by a laser as well it seems.

You become a stationary target that all Falco has to do is hit you with laser, wait for you to react, then go in and attack your lag. Or your shield for that matter. Probably a better tactic about lasers is to be able to move immediately after being hit such as going into dashes.

Ideally, I think Falco lasers should be dealt with by hitting him out of a jump if you can or minimizing your disruptions from lasers. As in you might be able to DD around even while getting hit by lasers because you can start another dash the moment you get hit. Thought I have yet to prove that method.

 

[FE_Hector]

E Elyssa Xey Hexen You make really good points about beating Falco, but the thing is that, after recently switching over to Falco, and I know this sounds crazy, most Falco's actually struggle a lot with beating Marth, too. Marth's height makes him a fairly easy target for lasers, but the ridiculous range of his sword can make it really hard to come in with a dair or a nair, which are his two biggest combo starters. I haven't actually thought about what the MU would look like in numbers, but I'm kind of thinking it's about even just because of Marth's ability to wall Falco out, and Falco's ability to just get out his insane combos as soon as he has an opening.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I think that perception comes from what people might fear most about the match-ups. For me, the most aggravating thing against facing falco is after losing my tempo from taking a laser I worry what will he do next? I cannot react at all. What to do. While in the converse I suppose Falco people realize that lasers while very helpful are not the best thing ever.

It does have weaknesses. Such as what happens when you laser someone and try to approach while the laser stun wears off? Its like 8 frames I think on the ground? Anyway, that is still a very short time to cover a large distance (even as small as Marth's sword length) and thus you can get stuffed to random flailing such as jab, ftilt, fair, etc. if you try to laser -> Dair. This is usually why you might see someone explain something like DD after a laser a bit to bait out a reaction and punish that.

The neutrality I think comes from the fact that it can go either ways. Lasers set-up nicely, but not perfectly and you still play a game where one mishap on the Falco can lead to a loss of stock. However, because Falco can be the one to use lasers athis whim it is still more in his favor to set-up.

I do not think it makes it impossible. However, the skills need to deal with lasers I think are super hard to try getting. Defensive skills in this game always seem to take the longest for a person to get compared to the offensive portion. Along with defensive mechanics being much harder to perform and master than something simple like firing a laser.

 

[FE_Hector]

Yeah. It's definitely super frustrating from both ends. Somebody's actually asking about the MU right now from Falco's side, and I honestly think that both Falco and Marth get super frustrated by not being able to play their neutral like they normally do. I'd say that, based on the questions I just saw, our biggest advantage is in properly threatening when they're above us, esp. on platform. Just a hard MU overall, it would seem.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Falco wins the matchup when he can slow Marth down/make him swing inappropriately or not swing or put up shield. Marth wins when he gets close to Falco/makes Falco stop lasering and gets his range and speed back. Falco has to fake with dashes how to get his lasers out and also threaten with occasional aerial approaches AS WELL AS what he does after every laser(and how to drift with each laser). Marth has some DD'ing it's just atypical. Marth wants to reposition before a laser comes out so he can either PS or take laser and then dash/jab. There are also plenty of decisions Marth can make between lasers depending on his confidence. Marth has WD jab and dash attack approaches depending on Falco's laser heights/attack speeds and spacing.

I'd be here all day talking about counter strategies....and honestly I don't know the matchup well enough on Marth's side yet to give a full perspective. Since I don't know it on Marth's side, then I won't know it fully for Falco since I won't know what to adapt to. Lasers still induce fear in me more than they should and currently I process information too slowly to confirm when Falco might or might not come in so I have to wait to flesh it out more.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

Falco wins the matchup when he can slow Marth down/make him swing inappropriately or not swing or put up shield. Marth wins when he gets close to Falco/makes Falco stop lasering and gets his range and speed back. Falco has to fake with dashes how to get his lasers out and also threaten with occasional aerial approaches AS WELL AS what he does after every laser(and how to drift with each laser). Marth has some DD'ing it's just atypical. Marth wants to reposition before a laser comes out so he can either PS or take laser and then dash/jab. There are also plenty of decisions Marth can make between lasers depending on his confidence. Marth has WD jab and dash attack approaches depending on Falco's laser heights/attack speeds and spacing.

I'd be here all day talking about counter strategies....and honestly I don't know the matchup well enough on Marth's side yet to give a full perspective. Since I don't know it on Marth's side, then I won't know it fully for Falco since I won't know what to adapt to. Lasers still induce fear in me more than they should and currently I process information too slowly to confirm when Falco might or might not come in so I have to wait to flesh it out more.

You could use that experience playing from the Falco side to provide a list of observations you try taking into account when playing against Marth. Unless you feel you do not even play Falco vs Marth very often from the Falco perspective. That perspective can be useful in trying to reverse engineer a set of possible actions for Marth.

As in say you have a set of observations about Marth that you find a threat as Falco. Therefore, you might have methods to try canceling or mitigating these problems. Therefore, by you explaining about that sort of thing Marth mains might in turn try to leverage that information to find counter-counter tactics to a particular set of options.

I guess in the end it becomes this very convoluted mess of what do you choose to do at any moment, but its better to be aware of something and have a method than none at all. This way you might work towards something and refine it later. Or abandon the feet all together.

While I have no method against Lasers that I think fully works, I am aware of some weaknesses and ways to mitigate it that I explained earlier and am trying to practice those and see how effective it becomes. For now, it has not been completely useful, but it has improved a number of things.

 

[Dr Peepee]

The problem is the Falco stuff I feel I do other Falcos don't really do....and the solutions to it are done by Marth stuff I do that others don't do. I don't know how that all works out yet because I'd need to see the options interact since there's a lot of uncertainty about where advantage is for me in my head right now. I don't feel I could really guess at this point.

 

[xianglongfa]

Marth seems to just too often require 2 outplays in order to get a solid opening against Falco. The first being the positional outplay by closing the distance to where Falco cannot safely get out a laser, and the second being the correct timing and placement of an aerial or grab despite the threat of Falco's CC or spot dodge shine. The extra hesitation to maneuver these defensive countermeasures often allows enough time for Falco to throw out a move to stuff Marth's spacing like jab, turn around up tilt, dash attack, or nair. This has always been a big problem for Marth in the neutral. He needs to continuously mitigate risk while seeking a solid conversion. Any misstep or hesitation is an opportunity for his opponent to capitalize. Falco does a great job of this with great hitboxes and an amazing crouch to bait or beat out Marth's attacks.

If Falco pressures Marth into his shield at close range, his approach becomes extremely powerful and hard for Marth to deal with. Falco's approaching nair does well even when Marth tries to react early and swipe them by jumping out of shield, often beating or trading with Marth's nair and fair oos. As Xey talked about earlier, once Marth is in shield at this range he can easily be baited to do such an aerial b/c he really does not like Falco getting on his shield.

Unless Marth establishes a strong threat of powershield, he has very little choice as to where or when he has to react to Falco approaching him while he's stuck losing stage in the corner. Sure, he can take laser and dash, or shield it and WD oos, but both of these options lose stage control for him, which is pretty bad. This is why PP has been talking about mixing up WD in jab/dash attack, or stuffing Falco's aerial approach with dash back f-b. These options are all tactics to gain stage or hold ground as Marth. However, all three of these options seem to me like patching a submarine with duct tape. WD forward jab only sorta works if you're willing to bet on falco doing a retreating laser, and even then it's quite unsafe. If you catch falco on ground, man will he make you pay. Same situation with f-b. GIVEN that they connect, and in the off-chance that the DI isn't super unfavorable already, Marth will often need to reset space again by dashing back as dashing forward in this situation is too unsafe and Marth is too close to attack right away. So whupty doo, Marth 'outplayed' Falco to get into disadvantaged neutral again. Mew2king has been doing unsafe dash attacks against falco for years. Yes they are predictable. Indeed they are crouch cancelable/shieldable easily on reaction by falco. But at least it gets Marth a big punish if Falco gets hit jumping up trying to laser. (They suck though vs PP falco LOL)


At the spacing where Falco shoots a laser to set up the threat of aerial pressure, Marth should really start landing a large percentage of his powershields. Landing a powershield at this range catches falco with the rebounded laser most of the time and allows Marth to close the distance menacingly with a jump or WD forward OOS.
Also, If Marth starts consistently hitting these powershields, he makes Falco want to shoot low lasers at this range, which opens up the option for Marth to jump over low laser and threaten with an aerial, and also makes it easier for Marth to react/deal with the lasers at this 'most threatening range' b/c the lasers are now coming out a little bit later.

Also, Falco can CC Marth's upair to even higher percents than Fox(like mid 60's-70% iirc). Marth NEEDS to be doing way more reaction tech chases and getting them down to 95%+ accuracy.(ala beast mode DruggedFox) Marth's reaction tech chase is not bad b/c even at higher percents he can get a reverse dolphin slash followup.(though this is much easier on Fox than on Falco) On BF and DL Marth should be reaction tech chasing from low to mid-high percents, then mix in up throw. I actually am not sure how reliable Marth's fthrow chaingrab is at mid percents if Fox DIs down and away on the fthrow. At mid percents an onwards, Marth needs to be trying to get Falco offstage for an edgeguard as much as possible ala Mew2king. Juggling Falco to obscene percents really doesn't do anything good for Marth's opportunities to secure a kill.

 

[FE_Hector]

I'm going to do a little bit of testing with the MU later, but I do have a few things before I get into what I've already thought about from both players' perspectives.

Dr Peepee The reason that most Falco's and Marth's don't do what you do a lot of the time is because you're the best of the best of the best and you're definitely ahead of the times in terms of metagame/playstyle, especially when it comes to DDing as Falco.

E Elyssa Xey Hexen & xianglongfa If Falco can put on good laser pressure and scares Marth into shield, Falco has officially won the neutral game. He has way too many quick options that beat out just about anything Marth can throw out. I'm going to just assume that the Falco we're talking about right now is extremely good for the next situation and lasers connect on the same frame that he lands.

On shield, lasers have 7 frames of stun. When they connect, they have 8 frames of stun. They also have 4 frames of hitlag.

Because Falco's lasers autocancel, we're just going to ignore the existence of hitlag because landing when they connect means that Falco is actionable right when the stun begins. Falco has 5 frames of jumpsquat and his nair is active on frame 4. Assuming that the Falco jumps and nairs as quickly as possible, it takes 9 frames to come out. That basically 100% ensures that he'll ALWAYS have the advantage in that situation, even with a few frames of leniency for imperfect inputs or slightly higher lasers.

Basically, it's extremely true that Falco wins if he can get out lasers and Marth can't PS. However, in Marth's favor in the MU is definitely his ridiculously good punish game... and the ability to get in where Falco can't laser. I think that if Marth can get close enough to Falco to be perfectly capable of punishing any of Falco's lasers, then the result of that neutral game will be determined by which of the players understands the neutral game when they're both almost constantly threatened. Falco can easy make a move with a bair, nair, or dair. Marth can threaten with grab, dtilt, or fair. I do have to say that I feel dtilt is a little bit risky due to the 14 frames it takes to WD... but it could go either way. Falco, however, is without his lasers.

Overall, PPMDs brief overview of the MU looks really solid. It's rather interesting to think about how such a difficult MU like this would work. Hopefully I'll be able to play it out a little bit from both sides relatively soon so that I can get in my own perspective.

One final thought, though: being afraid of lasers appears to be what will murder Marth in this MU. He's in the air for 17 frames with just a SHFF, and I'm pretty sure it goes up to somewhere between 20 and 22 if he places lasers at a reasonable height to catch Marth. That leaves the Marth plenty of time to escape, so you've got to maximize it. Powershields are probably Marth's biggest tool in this MU, though it's winnable without them. I'll think about it and hopefully play it a little more within the next few days.

 

[DeadPigeon]

On shield, lasers have 7 frames of stun. When they connect, they have 8 frames of stun. They also have 4 frames of hitlag.

Because Falco's lasers autocancel, we're just going to ignore the existence of hitlag because landing when they connect means that Falco is actionable right when the stun begins. Falco has 5 frames of jumpsquat and his nair is active on frame 4. Assuming that the Falco jumps and nairs as quickly as possible, it takes 9 frames to come out. That basically 100% ensures that he'll ALWAYS have the advantage in that situation, even with a few frames of leniency for imperfect inputs or slightly higher lasers.

I don't think it's quite as black and white as that. First, and perhaps most importantly, Marth can shield grab an instant nair (assuming it hits on the first frame). The Falco must space around Marth's grab, which means he has to land behind or significantly in front of Marth. Shine will only connect if Falco spaces behind your grab. In addition, Marth is actionable for 2 frames before the first hit of nair comes out. Falco's nair has a max of 7 frames of shield stun iirc.

So what does this all mean? It means that Marth can chose different options based on Falco's spacing that beat the pressure. If Falco...

instantly nairs at any spacing
Then you can always wd (or maybe roll??) away. The nair hitbox will be too high to catch crouching marth. I'm pretty sure this is impossible on reaction though, so read on if you can't read Falco.

hits shield with first frame of nair and lands in your grab range
Then grab him

hits shield with first frame of nair and lands spaced in front of you
Then do any oos option. It takes 7 frames for Marth to be able to act after he blocks the nair. Falco, on the other hand, must land and go through 7 frames of landing lag, giving Marth a huge frame advantage. This is compounded by the fact the shine won't connect (though I think if their spacing is gdlk, jab will outrange grab, though Marth has a number of ways to deal with spaced jab on shield). Good options: wd back, jump back or to a platform, fair, roll.

hits shield with first frame of nair and lands spaced behind you
Then wd forward, roll, up b, or dair. You have to be more careful here because now shine will connect, but even still you have crazy frame advantage.

instantly nairs, but spaces so it doesn't hit shield on the first frame
Then you must react to the timing/spacing or roll. The longer it takes to hit shield, the longer you have to act BEFORE getting hit. This of course comes with the trade off of having less time to act after getting hit. So you need to be able to decide if the Falco is giving you enough time to do an oos option, or if the best bet is to still get hit and attempt to escape during the period Falco is landing. Alternatively, roll is invincible on frame 4, so it should get you out before he can hit you.

delays nair
Same as above

 

[FE_Hector]

Yeah, thanks for helping clarify. It's a really difficult situation to describe properly. I was also talking about when he doesn't shield because everything's affected differently by nature of shielding.

 

[DeadPigeon]

Oh yea, it's one of the most complicated/coolest micro interactions in melee.
One thing I forgot about before. In your post, you were a bit vague about hitlag and I just wanted to clear it up a bit. Marth only experiences hitlag if the laser connects, not if it hits shield. Falco never experiences the hitlag because it's a projectile (not cause he has no landing lag from lasers).

 

[FE_Hector]

Oh yea, it's one of the most complicated/coolest micro interactions in melee.
One thing I forgot about before. In your post, you were a bit vague about hitlag and I just wanted to clear it up a bit. Marth only experiences hitlag if the laser connects, not if it hits shield. Falco never experiences the hitlag because it's a projectile (not cause he has no landing lag from lasers).

The situation I was providing I just ignored the 4 frames hitlag on Marth because I was assuming that the laser connected the same frame that Falco landed. Unless it's an NIL, all landings after lasering have 4 frames landlag just because that's how the game automatically worked. I thought I explained that, but maybe not.

 

[DeadPigeon]

Oh, I see what you meant now.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Marth vs Peach MU?

 

[FE_Hector]

IDK too much about it, but remember why PPMD is so good at it: the PP stands for Patience and Precision. Don't do anything rash, don't commit to anything you don't think you can get, and don't make yourself readable at all.

 

[balloonpower]

so does that mean ppmd is precision patienec medical doctorate

also about the marth peach MU I think its important to know how to play the longer percent game instead of the get them offstage at around 100 then edgegaurd and dair plan that a lot of matchups follow since sometimes you just dont get the earlier kill and have to take peach to 200% and then kill with an aerial that isnt dair

thats just my opinion though

 

[FE_Hector]

so does that mean ppmd is precision patienec medical doctorate

Obviously lol. (It was something Toph tweeted out a few days ago. I honestly just think that that's why PPMDs so good vs floaties)

 

[DuskMarthWater]

I think vs Falco that exploring options out of shield is something that Marth's have yet to do effectively. Being in your shield all day is, obviously, a terrible decision. However, the shield can be used to great advantage if utilized properly; I don't think it should be something purely defensive in any matchup. Armada, as well as others, has made his shield actually threatening when he's on a platform with his shield dropping; I think the same kind of principle can be applied to grounded shielding. And I think shield DI is a crucial piece to that.

As far as the Peach mu, I actually thoroughly enjoy facing Peach as Marth, even on DL. If Marth plays aggressively, Peach will wreak havoc and destruction. Every time. There is a time and place to be aggressive, and it's a pretty rare occurrence in this mu. When she's off the ledge aggressiveness can pay off, if it's not overzealous. Apparently I'm in the minority here, but I think that when Peach starts pulling turnips it makes her more vulnerable. Whether she is more vulnerable when she actually has it out is another story, but I find that too often people get nervous because now she has a projectile, and forget that most Peach players really focus hard on an appropriate time to use said vegetable, especially when that projectile can just be swatted away (and if your timing is good you can also hit Peach through it if she's using the turnip as an approach). I find that Peach mains are distracted during that time, and also a bit overconfident. Anyway, I also think that Marth DD beats Peach really bad, and the fact that his sword kinda out ranges anything and everything she has. As a random example that doesn't even involve the sword, his grab range is LARGER than her dsmash. However, when Marth is above Peach he can have a rather difficult time getting back down.
I also think that Peach's float is over-rated. When she's floating she's vulnerable too, IF you don't fall for the tricky float movement.

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee I play against both my bro and other people quite a lot, and I was thinking about it a little bit and I realized... I'm clearly the better player than he is, but he keeps it really close a lot of the time (likely cuz he knows a lot of my habits). Is that how you and Twitch are, or are you definitively crushing him regularly when you two play? I get that you two don't play as much anymore with him being WAY out in the mountains (heh), but I'm still curious.