Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[SnakeMan]

Ha!! Lol This^. I thought I was the only one that had better success with the colors I dont like to play

 

[crush]

I only like red and black usually.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Let's see. There is blue, red, black, green, and white. I'm really good as black and green (which I do like to use, but those colors are so overused), I'm dismal with white (white only looks good on FoD anyway) and red, which is my preferred color I'm not so good with. The color I absolutely don't want to use is blue and I'm friggin amazing with blue. My spacing is always on point as blue Marth.

 

[Van.]

I have some questions about the cg vs. fox/falco.

Can you guys really react to no DI vs. DI away? I feel like its incredibly difficult to make this work if you're opponent is constantly mixing it up, making you turn around and then suddenly not. I'm sure its doable, it just seems, well, really hard.

That leads into my second question which is why do people recomend practicing vs. lvl 1s ( who always DI behind)? If you get used to always turning around for every regrab except the first one, how is that going to help at all vs. someone who varies DI's? In fact, it seems downright detrimental.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I have some questions about the cg vs. fox/falco.

Can you guys really react to no DI vs. DI away? I feel like its incredibly difficult to make this work if you're opponent is constantly mixing it up, making you turn around and then suddenly not. I'm sure its doable, it just seems, well, really hard.

That leads into my second question which is why do people recomend practicing vs. lvl 1s ( who always DI behind)? If you get used to always turning around for every regrab except the first one, how is that going to help at all vs. someone who varies DI's? In fact, it seems downright detrimental.

You don't actually have to move for DI away until like 22% or something. Marths grab range lets you stand in place and grab their DI away. The only option you have to react to is DI behind. After 16% or so you should be pivot grabbing which is typically pretty tough to do consistently, but since you throw them higher than the earlier %s its not too bad.

(note: Fox numbers for the %s. Falco numbers are higher)

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I have some questions about the cg vs. fox/falco.

Can you guys really react to no DI vs. DI away? I feel like its incredibly difficult to make this work if you're opponent is constantly mixing it up, making you turn around and then suddenly not. I'm sure its doable, it just seems, well, really hard.

That leads into my second question which is why do people recomend practicing vs. lvl 1s ( who always DI behind)? If you get used to always turning around for every regrab except the first one, how is that going to help at all vs. someone who varies DI's? In fact, it seems downright detrimental.

If you want to practice cg, you should be playing against lvl 4's actually. They mix up DI.

As far as reaction goes, it's really easy to tell where the opponent is DI'ing right after you throw them. Since you don't have to move right away you can get the CG pretty easy (at least I can).

 

[username12345678]

how useful is short hop fair-waveland? i never see it

 

[.Chipmunk.]

how useful is short hop fair-waveland? i never see it

I use it very sparingly. Just one of those things you feel out. Most of the time I delay my fairs due to CC

 

[Van.]

Thanks crimson and chipmunk, i appreciate it. First I've ever heard that lvl 4 thing, i'll give it a shot.

 

[Winston]

sh fair waveland is excellent if you connect with a rising fair and they DI it away.

Otherwise it doesn't really do a lot

 

[Niko45]

So after playing Wenbo and Winston this weekend it's pretty clear that Fox can consistently sweet spot from below. I tried and failed to counter mad times lolol.

I will say tho, that the one time that I jabbed his side B and forced him to try to up B he DID miss the sweet spot, he was only sweet spotting when he completely volunteered to go for that. I think it's still pretty safe to counter after jabbing side B, as it's much harder to measure a sweetspot with no DJ or very much time to set it up.

It's also pretty easy to time an fsmash against the sweetspot too.

And holy ****, as soon as all the Fox players start consistently wavelanding with invince frames like Wenbo does....I'm quitting melee.

 

[KirbyKaze]

When you guys are f-throwing Fox or whatever towards the edge, if they tech in place (or non-tech) and you've already WD'd (or similar movement technique) to their landing spot to follow them, at like 50%+ a really cool thing unknown showed me is to just sourspot u-tilt and then work from there. It's got a way better trajectory than f-smash for setting up gimps and other stuff, and it's also less expected, 'cuz you're right in their face.

Sourspot u-tilt is so funny. While also being amazing. I even saw M2K doing it in some of his combos at the Canada tournament a lil' while back.

I still think Dair and other stuff are better than F-smash just because they aren't as laggy so if they tech --> something slowly, you might be able to get a jab or something out. Blah blah, stuff about hitbox hitting below the stage for longer, etc.

 

[Niko45]

^Sourspot up tilt is so good in general. I have to look for it more.

 

[Van.]

damn this lvl 4 thing is tooo ****

for the first time in months i feel like i'm actually improving at the cg.

anybody have the number for pivot grabbing vs. falco?

 

[KirbyKaze]

^Sourspot up tilt is so good in general. I have to look for it more.

It's pretty easy to find; it never changes.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

damn this lvl 4 thing is tooo ****

for the first time in months i feel like i'm actually improving at the cg.

Anybody have the number for pivot grabbing vs. Falco?

26%

,,,,,,,,

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I actually don't sourspot utilt that much. I'll reverse utilt if I'm too close, or I'll just usmash. usmash is underrated imo and I personally believe it's a viable option when under shield pressure.

If I do connect with a rising fair and they DI away, I can still usually drift in air and connect with the second fair. My rising fair wavelands are, as I said, very sparing and I just really feel them out right before I do them. I can't really say 'do it when this happens'.

Lvl 4 cg is ****, and no. I don't have the exact number for pivot grab vs falco, but I'm sure you can get a base percentage if you just feel it out. Fox is 19% and, if you adjust for Falco's faster fall speed and Marth's longer throw lag, you can maybe add one more grab to that which is around 3% right? so maybe once you hit the 20's? EDIT: Or what Crimson said.

Even then, the jump out at that low percentage has to be frame perfect and most spacies are more worried about the DI than the jump out so being super strict with it isn't necessary but it's good to know.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Hmmm I don't use sourspot utilt for anything but edgeguarding (when they fall on top of me). Using it in close tech situations instead of fsmash is really interesting.

usmash is underrated imo and I personally believe it's a viable option when under shield pressure.

shhhhhh keep that technology under wraps :o

Even then, the jump out at that low percentage has to be frame perfect and most spacies are more worried about the DI than the jump out so being super strict with it isn't necessary but it's good to know.

I believe jumps actually get buffered in that situation. But tbh you're not so much worried about jumps as shines. Good spacies will no DI and mash down B at those %s.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

shhhhhh keep that technology under wraps :o

Lol. Dude, I have so many little Marth tricks it's unreal. Now if I could only incorporate them into matches and make them viable I'd be golden.

I'm at that point where I almost want to make a Marth trick video for all you guys, but I don't want to give away my secrets at the same time.

 

[Wenbobular]

So after playing Wenbo and Winston this weekend it's pretty clear that Fox can consistently sweet spot from below. I tried and failed to counter mad times lolol.

I will say tho, that the one time that I jabbed his side B and forced him to try to up B he DID miss the sweet spot, he was only sweet spotting when he completely volunteered to go for that. I think it's still pretty safe to counter after jabbing side B, as it's much harder to measure a sweetspot with no DJ or very much time to set it up.

It's also pretty easy to time an fsmash against the sweetspot too.

And holy ****, as soon as all the Fox players start consistently wavelanding with invince frames like Wenbo does....I'm quitting melee.

I remember that up-b ... I actually just missed the sweetspot completely, sorry to get your hopes up
That was more due to not having Fox tech skill most of the day and not because I was surprised or anything <_< there's almost literally no place below FD that you can't sweetspot past counter from because the part under the stage is basically curved exactly how Fox wants it ... you have to go down to get a guaranteed edgeguard, otherwise at best it's a 50/50 between edgehogging and doing some ledgehop option or just letting them back for free with counter or Fsmash

When I'm on point with my up-b's you're not going to be Fsmashing them I assure you (even if you do, tech -> illusion > Fsmash anyways)

Dropping down with Firefox is actually just stone dead to dropping down and up-bing though, but most Marths have no idea how easy it is (especially on FD) to sweetspot past counter so they just do the bad option and I **** them every time (when I'm on point, sigh)

Foxes are for some reason real bad at doing it and I don't know why, it's really not very difficult and basically means you get back for free a lot <_<

Also I was missing shortens *wall of johns continue* slightly longer than the shortest shorten length will get past almost all onstage edgeguarding unless you walk to the very very edge and Ftilt (or maybe jab but I'm almost positive you weren't walking far enough)

Also Niko if you see that Fox can ledgedash with invincibility jumping is quite possibly the literal worst thing you can do, Fair / Nair don't beat invincible upsmash (duh I guess) and even if I don't have invincibility it's not a trade you want to make (and trading is the best you can hope for if Fox does it halfway correctly)

I know I mentioned it in passing but I just want to make that clear

Dashdance or shield instead (dashdancing is better obviously, I can grab if you're obvious with shielding)

Even though I wrote this post it's not going to make a difference because I don't think most Foxes are close to incorporating all that consistently and getting the mixups down

I have the tech skill for most of them but I don't understand all of the mixups for Firefox angles and illusions unfortunately ... maybe because no one covers all the good options so I can just spam them and get back all the time <_<

Play my Fox next time we meet and hopefully it'll be more in shape ^_^

Also a note - the easiest places to sweetspot up-b from below:
FD and FoD - easiest because the stage slopes a bit leading to the ledge (ESPECIALLY FD) - if they show they can do it you should probably forgo countering completely, if they show they can ledgedash you should probably just never try it at all because I don't think you want to be giving Fox a free Uair or ledgedash Usmash / grab / shenanigans
DL - not possible sometimes if they're too close horizontally and below the bottom (should be pretty obvious if they can or can't)

Yoshi's is actually really hard to sweetspot on because of the weird edge that curves down, I'm sure Fox CAN get them but it feels a LOT different on that stage so countering there is much more viable (unless of course they show that they can haha)

Battlefield, Cruise, KJ64, and Brinstar are like ... some obvious places where it doesn't work because of lack of edge to ride up against (right side of RC is still probably doable though)

Stadium is a funny one because it's a lot like DL in that the bottom of the stage will cut off a lot of angles close to the stage but it's still possible to do them from certain places farther away or close enough to do a super low angle
The thing that makes it tricky for spacies is lack of visuals because Stadium has a dumb camera near the ledge >_<

Also keep walkoff counter in mind, it's pretty good if they can sweetspot ... just make sure they don't know how to tech it because if they can you're kinda super boned haha

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Wenbolicious

Yeah, playing Wenbo is the best way to get your edgeguarding on point. You actually have to go offstage to have a chance for the kill; you can't cheese with any onstage options at all. That kid has got recovery tricks for daaayyyyss.

Hes such a good practice partner ^^

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Try playing M2K. That guy pulls out the wackiest angles to sweetspot with fox. I've never seen anybody come close to that kind of recoverability. It really changes up the way you edge guard. The best way to edgeguard fox? Know what stage your on, the distance of his recovery, and the person you are playing. Some people, like my usual practice partner, loves to firebird straight up because he's afraid of the counter, so what do I usually do? Set up for the dtilt instead. Even if I toss it out and miss him going straight up or he's out of reach, the IASA lets me still punish him. Other spacies? I still counter like the ****ens. It's so important to know the tendencies of the person you are playing.

Edgeguarding sheik is much simpler in the same respect. If the person up-b's and they drift backwards during it, I stay on the edge. If they drift forward, I get up. (Assuming of course they are close enough to make it back on stage). There are little tiny things that give away what people are going to do all over the place if you learn to look for them and spot them. It makes the game easier, the pace of play seem slower, and makes you better.

 

[Wenbobular]

I think that's just called "observing your opponent" <_<
Also some extrapolating from your practice partners to the general Smash community
Having a variety of training partners as good or better than you is pretty sweet ... L> transfer to otg's Smashfests

 

[Teczer0]

Watching niko's Marth in tournament is really interesting to me haha. Mainly because we started at different points, I was a player who mainly concentrated on learning how to edgegaurd well more than onstage fighting. Watching niko I feel like he did the opposite lmao.

Niko I'd love to see you improve and in general be more aggressive with your edgegaurds man. You'd be so much scarier of a player if you did. Not that you aren't scary good as it is xD

 

[.Chipmunk.]

I think that's just called "observing your opponent" <_<
Also some extrapolating from your practice partners to the general Smash community
Having a variety of training partners as good or better than you is pretty sweet ... L> transfer to otg's Smashfests

You are correct sir. Which is why I make pb&j play a variety of characters. I'm not one to travel so I don't get the exposure or the variety of play styles that some other people get. My only other chance is when people travel to pb&j's or my roommate who plays a casual luigi. I was very very lucky to have M2K stay at my place for a long time and teach me many many things about the game.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hmmm I don't use sourspot utilt for anything but edgeguarding (when they fall on top of me). Using it in close tech situations instead of fsmash is really interesting.

Use it as a finisher in CG and similar juggle combos at low percents. Bonus points if you can make them DI for a normal u-tilt and then surprise them by making them bad DI the sourspot.

 

[Winston]

Hmm, at around what percents would you want to use it to finish a CG? And is the bad angle really good enough that it's worth doing instead of doing the regular CG/juggle stuff?

 

[crush]

Use it as a finisher in CG and similar juggle combos at low percents. Bonus points if you can make them DI for a normal u-tilt and then surprise them by making them bad DI the sourspot.

bonus points? how many bonus points are we talkin about here?

 

[Niko45]

Watching niko's Marth in tournament is really interesting to me haha. Mainly because we started at different points, I was a player who mainly concentrated on learning how to edgegaurd well more than onstage fighting. Watching niko I feel like he did the opposite lmao.

Niko I'd love to see you improve and in general be more aggressive with your edgegaurds man. You'd be so much scarier of a player if you did. Not that you aren't scary good as it is xD

Thanks dude. It's weird cause honestly way back when I chose to play marth I was really into edgeguards/offstage stuff/gimping. But then my main sparring partner became a doc main lol. L2onstage asap. and now my weakest area is edgeguarding.

but yea i think the biggest hole in my game is playing confidently in tourney and I think that shows up most noticeably in my edgeguard game. When I'm edgeguarding its weird it feels like I'm on defense just trying not to mess up and that's definitely the wrong mentality for it. I'm going to keep trying to improve even tho I'm really frustrated right now with how I seem to play when it counts and I don't really know how to fix that.

I love watching your Marth too and next time FOR SURE we are playing lol I'm tight.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Thanks dude. It's weird cause honestly way back when I chose to play marth I was really into edgeguards/offstage stuff/gimping. But then my main sparring partner became a doc main lol. L2onstage asap. and now my weakest area is edgeguarding.

but yea i think the biggest hole in my game is playing confidently in tourney and I think that shows up most noticeably in my edgeguard game. When I'm edgeguarding its weird it feels like I'm on defense just trying not to mess up and that's definitely the wrong mentality for it. I'm going to keep trying to improve even tho I'm really frustrated right now with how I seem to play when it counts and I don't really know how to fix that.

I love watching your Marth too and next time FOR SURE we are playing lol I'm tight.

Is it that you don't know what to do when edgeguarding or is it something else?

 

[Tee ay eye]

cool trick that i get to work with pretty much 100% consistency:

if sheik is on the edge above 100%, trying to edgehog you, and you up B onto the stage and she rolls onto the stage, d-smash will always tipper and kill

 

[KirbyKaze]

Niko, when Peaches are floating sort of high and trying to threaten you, walking up to them and up tilting is a pretty good way to swat them and start a juggle. It's really good at low percent (if you tip it, it works at like 0 but if not like 15%). It looked like you had problems with that at your last tournament.

Also, you have to get over your fear of using aerials and going offstage to edgeguard. Especially versus Peach.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

Niko, when Peaches are floating sort of high and trying to threaten you, walking up to them and up tilting is a pretty good way to swat them and start a juggle. It's really good at low percent (if you tip it, it works at like 0 but if not like 15%). It looked like you had problems with that at your last tournament.

Also, you have to get over your fear of using aerials and going offstage to edgeguard. Especially versus Peach.

Meh. Wavedash utilt is more fun. Or reverse wavedash nair for lulz.

 

[Niko45]

Niko, when Peaches are floating sort of high and trying to threaten you, walking up to them and up tilting is a pretty good way to swat them and start a juggle. It's really good at low percent (if you tip it, it works at like 0 but if not like 15%). It looked like you had problems with that at your last tournament.

Also, you have to get over your fear of using aerials and going offstage to edgeguard. Especially versus Peach.

Thanks, actually some specifics on edgeguarding peach would be cool (I'm assuming ur talking about the MacD set) cause I really don't know what to do.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Unknown522 is with me so I'm asking him to field this one, since he's better at it than me.

He says your goal is to take away her float and/or jump with an aerial of some kind (probably Fair or Bair) and then grind damage on her for a while.

Some basics:

1) Watch for air-dodges - Because you're Marth, you can wait at a pretty safe distance and cover for air-dodges pretty easily (and attacks, but air-dodges are scary because they can go through your moves and let her touch the ground if you're not careful). Generally, aerials are better for stopping this kind of stuff because if you miss one, you can still land and cover options with a ground move (or a rising aerial, etc).

2) Letting her grab the edge isn't that bad - She doesn't get her float back; she only gets her double jump. Her options at the edge are pretty bad, so as long as you wait outside of her ledge attack range, it's pretty easy to cover everything she does. If you have the choice between forcing onto the ledge or letting her touch ground, always force her onto the ledge.

3) You're probably not gonna kill her in a cool way - Unless she messes up, you're probably not going to hit her with a tipped f-smash, a spike, or anything neat like that. More likely than anything else, you're going to rack her to like 140% and hit a soft u-tilt, hit a soft f-smash at 150%+, or edgehog her somehow if she's recovering low. Accept this and aim to cover options with edgeguarding, rather than being single-minded about something tempting like dair.

In general, Unknown says there's nothing really complicated about edgeguarding her recovery. You just have to accept that it's gonna take like a minute. After you get over that, it's easier. Don't try to rush it unnecessarily. As long as you don't get hit, and you stay in the driver's seat, you're good.

 

[Strong Badam]

Edgeguarding floaties in general requires a lot of patience.

 

[Ryucloud]

Also turning your back towards the edge works and cover all options if done right alot if they go high just back air it they got low walk away tipper foward smash but either way you are at the advantage in the situation just be patient and try to read her if she wants to go to the stage or the edge just tips i learned and watched
i feel like everytime i watch a marth peach matchup the marth always gets the first kill but ends up loses the match

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hmm, at around what percents would you want to use it to finish a CG? And is the bad angle really good enough that it's worth doing instead of doing the regular CG/juggle stuff?

Basically, whenever you could regrab in a combo, I'm fairly sure you could sourspot u-tilt.

Not sure how good it actually is if they prepare for it, but it seems like a reasonable trick to catch away DI with a really gay punish.

 

[Tee ay eye]

i want to express in words the similarities and differences between all of marth's options for creating walls between himself and his opponent.

in other words, i want to put into concise, concrete terms when to use rising fair, delayed fair, nair, jab, forward b, utilt, dtilt, dd grab, fsmash, and wd back to whatever. i think having an explicit understanding of this would help create perfect move choice for creating walls. because a lot of these options don't always work even when you know they're coming in.

if anyone wants to do this for me, feel free. otherwise, i'll probably do it on my own and i may or may not share it here.

 

[.Chipmunk.]

i want to express in words the similarities and differences between all of marth's options for creating walls between himself and his opponent.

in other words, i want to put into concise, concrete terms when to use rising fair, delayed fair, nair, jab, forward b, utilt, dtilt, dd grab, fsmash, and wd back to whatever. i think having an explicit understanding of this would help create perfect move choice for creating walls. because a lot of these options don't always work even when you know they're coming in.

if anyone wants to do this for me, feel free. otherwise, i'll probably do it on my own and i may or may not share it here.

Do the move when it will or when it is completely safe to throw it out. Never leave yourself vulnerable.