Important Carefully Ask PPMD about the Tiara Guy

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah it can be closer because he knows my stuff. If I focus hard when I play him I can use his own habits against him but it's still hard to change what I usually wanna do. This is why he's such good training because it takes so much more focus for me.

 

[Sutekh]

Dr Peepee I play against both my bro and other people quite a lot, and I was thinking about it a little bit and I realized... I'm clearly the better player than he is, but he keeps it really close a lot of the time (likely cuz he knows a lot of my habits). Is that how you and Twitch are, or are you definitively crushing him regularly when you two play? I get that you two don't play as much anymore with him being WAY out in the mountains (heh), but I'm still curious.

I can definitely relate to this. My college is about an hour away from our closest legitimate tournament scene, so the small cluster of players I train with from school play each other constantly. When we're playing people outside our cluster I perform much better than them, but I drop quite a few games and the occasional set to them because they know my playstyle so well. I think it helps make it more apparent what your habits are and forces you to consciously mix up your choices when playing against these players, when autopiloting will get you punished more often.

 

[AirFair]

Dr Peepee So I'm trying to learn the marth ditto more, and I have a question.

When you uthrow in the marth ditto, what kinds of punishes/positions are you looking for?
I ask because I feel like it's best used at lower percents, but I've seen it done at higher percents too

Usually, I can get uthrow utilt or uthrow uair, and if they di out then fair/bair, and I can even bait double jump, but I feel like there are certain reasons to use it that I'm missing.

When do you use uthrow is the question I guess. Sorry that it is so general, but I don't know the more specific situations in which it's most effective.

 

[xXadevs2000Xx]

Dr Peepee So I'm trying to learn the marth ditto more, and I have a question.

When you uthrow in the marth ditto, what kinds of punishes/positions are you looking for?
I ask because I feel like it's best used at lower percents, but I've seen it done at higher percents too

Usually, I can get uthrow utilt or uthrow uair, and if they di out then fair/bair, and I can even bait double jump, but I feel like there are certain reasons to use it that I'm missing.

When do you use uthrow is the question I guess. Sorry that it is so general, but I don't know the more specific situations in which it's most effective.

Wow, so the Marth R&D group wasn't enough for you? Okay.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee So I'm trying to learn the marth ditto more, and I have a question.

When you uthrow in the marth ditto, what kinds of punishes/positions are you looking for?
I ask because I feel like it's best used at lower percents, but I've seen it done at higher percents too

Usually, I can get uthrow utilt or uthrow uair, and if they di out then fair/bair, and I can even bait double jump, but I feel like there are certain reasons to use it that I'm missing.

When do you use uthrow is the question I guess. Sorry that it is so general, but I don't know the more specific situations in which it's most effective.

I think Kadano has this in his thread on here.

If not, don't Uthrow until somewhere above 10% and then utilt. Fair off of Uthrow comes around 25% or so after throw iirc. Exact percents and such change a little because of DI and how quickly both players can act. Test it imo.

 

[AirFair]

Wow, so the Marth R&D group wasn't enough for you? Okay.

I just wanted more answers lol. And it's not like pp would comment there.

Thanks pp.

 

[Bounce N Back]

Does marth have a reactable tech chase against marth in the ditto? i know marth has is uthrow combos at lower percents but id like to rack up percent mad early with guarenteed tech chases the way it is against falcon and stuff. If this information is in another thread, if you could link it that'd be cool as well if you can't answer it yourself

 

[v-$]

My punish game is okay but I keep losing the neutral vs. fox. I just feel like he's too fast.

I feel like I understand the neutral game in more linear mu's like marth ditto or marth-peach but i'm struggling with neutral vs. fox. Marth falcon even makes more sense to me, kinda use your range to threaten space and corner him to stop him from running around. I just don't know what to do in neutral against fox. Halp, pls advise.

Right now I try to mix up run in dtilt, run in grab (but both of these seem so predictable) and dd grab after fox whiffs an approach. But I often feel like i'm in the wrong place at the wrong time. What should I be doing?

Thanks!

 

[AirFair]

I've yet to test, but I don't think Marth has a guaranteed techchase, as he is so floaty that after maybe 10% it's not effective vs good DI. Most of your early damage might come from fthrow or uthrow combos instead, which would prove more useful as they can be mixed up against DI.

to v-$:
predictability is the last thing you want in any matchup. Getting the grab is important , so you are correct there, but your way of getting it is too narrow. You use run, and in the process, ignore marth's BEST tool: his dashdance.

You can probably look up what others have to say about dashdancing, but it's essentially a way to safely get in and out of a range, with each of your dashes serving a function, whether it is to approach or bait.

Most foxes are going to handle you differently as you encroach on their effective range. See what they do. you can dash around aerials, and in some cases you CAN run up grab, but only if you know they are going to laser,shield, etc. It's all conditioning.

 

[dreamhouse]

Dr Peepee I see you barely out space shiek's dash attack pretty frequently ending up with shiek just behind you, have you tried uptilt here instead of turn around grab? It seems like it would lead to better follow ups at some percents.

Speaking of dash attack how do you make it whiff so damn consistently? How much of that is pure dashing back on reaction? I know you've talked before about how you don't see reaction and prediction as a dichotomy and that they work in tandem. Is that how you look at spacing around shiek's dash attack as well?

I sort of can place myself at a space where I feel like I can bait out a dash attack and punish, but it feels really difficult to do for extended periods of time without losing stage. I feel safe at outside dash attack range, and up close, but i feel pretty unsafe at medium range, is that how you feel in the matchup too? What spacing do you want to work around up close?

I realize that's like a million questions.

 

[DuskMarthWater]

Does marth have a reactable tech chase against marth in the ditto? i know marth has is uthrow combos at lower percents but id like to rack up percent mad early with guarenteed tech chases the way it is against falcon and stuff. If this information is in another thread, if you could link it that'd be cool as well if you can't answer it yourself

Yes he can do that, but to be honest it's really not that effective. It CAN be used to mentally abuse your opponent, but you're not really going to rack up damage with a throw that does ~4%; that's like 12 regrabs just for 60%, which is really hard to land. Besides, pretty soon after around ...10-20%? Marth can just DI up to get out of it. But at that point, you should be able to juggle or fsmash, or whatever.

I think neutral on Fox is actually pretty hard. He is extraordinarily quick, for sure, so really playing neutral against him requires quick movement and reaction speed. If you're brain is too tired, you won't be able to keep up. Fox likes to bait out a laggy move from Marth with DDing so that he can just run in and do whatever he feels like, especially at high percents for the up smash. Auto-cancel nair is a useful move, and retreating aerials/movement in general against him is very useful. Threatening his space, not just retreating and making your space look threatening, with some perfectly spaced aerials can also bait him into being too aggressive to get you away. The greatest of your tools though, is the DD, although a simple WD can also be used to great effect. Just a few suggestions. AirFair gave some good insight in his post above too.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I see you barely out space shiek's dash attack pretty frequently ending up with shiek just behind you, have you tried uptilt here instead of turn around grab? It seems like it would lead to better follow ups at some percents.

Speaking of dash attack how do you make it whiff so damn consistently? How much of that is pure dashing back on reaction? I know you've talked before about how you don't see reaction and prediction as a dichotomy and that they work in tandem. Is that how you look at spacing around shiek's dash attack as well?

I sort of can place myself at a space where I feel like I can bait out a dash attack and punish, but it feels really difficult to do for extended periods of time without losing stage. I feel safe at outside dash attack range, and up close, but i feel pretty unsafe at medium range, is that how you feel in the matchup too? What spacing do you want to work around up close?

I realize that's like a million questions.

Sheik can hold down in DA lag and tech utilt and punish me which would be lame lol so grab is more guaranteed. Grab should give great followups anyway but whenever utilt can launch vs sheik(haven't tested that yet) I guess that could be cool. Part of the problem is I'm dashing and not WD'ing to dodge DA so I can't stop in time to Utilt before Sheik is out of lag.

Well that question doesn't have an easy answer lol. The first thing to do is learn the range where Sheik's DA goes. Then learn where it goes with a little bit of a dash first(more realistic). Once you have that you can just imagine that range being threatening and learn when to discourage use of that tool to go in. When you go in, you know the tool can be more likely to be used if you stay inside DA range. Other factors contribute like being close to the opponent or a high pressure situation or a percent where DA can combo into a kill/easier edgeguard. Once you know those things, it's a matter of controlling their actions as well as learning human patterns in pressure situations.

You just need to learn that Sheik can't always DA because it's punishable. You can push into her DA space relatively safely since you can move back out and react if she were to DA as soon as you came close. Based on this, you can begin to discourage use of the tool and take space.

 

[dreamhouse]

Sheik can hold down in DA lag and tech utilt and punish me which would be lame lol so grab is more guaranteed. Grab should give great followups anyway but whenever utilt can launch vs sheik(haven't tested that yet) I guess that could be cool. Part of the problem is I'm dashing and not WD'ing to dodge DA so I can't stop in time to Utilt before Sheik is out of lag.

Well that question doesn't have an easy answer lol. The first thing to do is learn the range where Sheik's DA goes. Then learn where it goes with a little bit of a dash first(more realistic). Once you have that you can just imagine that range being threatening and learn when to discourage use of that tool to go in. When you go in, you know the tool can be more likely to be used if you stay inside DA range. Other factors contribute like being close to the opponent or a high pressure situation or a percent where DA can combo into a kill/easier edgeguard. Once you know those things, it's a matter of controlling their actions as well as learning human patterns in pressure situations.

You just need to learn that Sheik can't always DA because it's punishable. You can push into her DA space relatively safely since you can move back out and react if she were to DA as soon as you came close. Based on this, you can begin to discourage use of the tool and take space.

Ah, I forgot about asdi down. I knew there was a reason I didn't see other people doing it.

And everything you're saying about dash attack makes a lot of sense. I actually went into training mode and memorized the exact spacing shiek threatens with her longest and shortest dash attack so I can visualize it better.

 

[AceDudeyeah]

A fox that doesn't approach is so haaard.

 

[FE_Hector]

Just bait him out. Run towards him like you're gonna do something stupid and then WD into DDing. Threaten his space with dtilts and fairs and make him nervous. When he approaches, he's pretty likely to do something stupid. Alternately, if he loves SHDL, move in when you see the SH and punish him for it.

 

[Ladder]

Are shieldstops useful and should I learn to short hop double retreating fair with C-stick only?

 

[FE_Hector]

Yes and it's technically optimal but not at all required.

 

[Ladder]

Yes and it's technically optimal but not at all required.

Like in what situations would they be useful and what move out of them?
Now I only use shield stop nair in place to space and sometimes bait.
I thought retreating fair might be useful for countering approach but I feel like dash dancing to avoid it and punish or wavedash back is still better.

 

[FE_Hector]

If they're trying to space themselves to handle your WD OoS and dash back to avoid them, retreating double fair is a really good mixup because it forces them to guess what your next choice will be. It's one of the purely human aspects of the game

 

[DJRome]

Anyone have bookmarked posts for marth fox neutral game matchup?

 

[FE_Hector]

No, I don't. There's a lot of talk about that particular MU in this thread, though. Also open to questions.

 

[Sycorax]

Anyone have bookmarked posts for marth fox neutral game matchup?

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Daf_Dqod1HoMj7L26ITeUM-xKUKhfxh2vJLWOl2N0C8/edit?pli=1

 

[MookieRah]

@SplitsOnTrees
I'm going to be the first to mention that the guide you just posted was circa 2013 I think? I haven't updated it in a meaningful way much since then, and I don't have plans right now to do it soon either.

That said, there are a lot of constants in that document, a lot of good ideas. Just take very meta-specific things with a grain of salt.

 

[MarthBoi]

How do you get out of shiek regrabbing off of down throws over and over again at low percent? Platforms make it easy to get out of, but on dreamland and fd I can't seem to escape no matter where I DI until like 40%

 

[DuskMarthWater]

You DI up. Then when she ftilts or whatever you SDI in the correct direction and avoid the follow up/counter attack.

 

[1MachGO]

Dr Peepee did you catch SFAT vs. Pewpewu grand finals at the most recent SSS? What are your thoughts on the FD match? It seems like Marths tend to really struggle on that stage. Any ideas as to where the Marth-FD meta needs to go in order to take advantage of the stage's potential?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah I watched it. I think Sfat just knows how to fight really well and punishes harder than PPU, which shouldn't normally be the case on that level(it's possible if both characters play well, but PPU is more unoptimized here).

Marth needs to hit harder and have a more dynamic neutral to beat what Sfat does. Sfat has some great neutral tricks that are entirely possible for Marth to beat especially on FD but it takes great focus. Sfat has some shine spikes that just show why the matchup isn't so bad for Fox you can't do much about though LOL

 

[AirFair]

Hey Dr Peepee , I was looking at you vs hugs, and you use nair alot. From my understanding, you've said before that you use it more to establish a range first, so it may not always be used as an attack. (may or may not be interpreting one of your posts wrong)

During the match, you kept using it. Is it because you had enough space to or were you expecting a certain reaction from HugS?
Whenever I think it's safe I get cc dsmashed

 

[Dr Peepee]

You've interpreted my post correctly. I tend to not recommend Nair as an approach since it's so easily punishable. If you can make it work, then you can space it such that you won't get CC punished. It's likely you can sort of replace it with (threats of) Fair in most instances when I nair'd and be fine in the matchup.

 

[AirFair]

thank you very much!

I've never quite understood this whole stigma about nair. The reason being is that people will often not recommend it, then I will go and rewatch a set and see something like this

https://youtu.be/_Dd9_SwVMcg?t=1m50s

and it makes me wonder why it was used so many times. I've notice that you go for nair off of DI away on fthrows vs floaties, at least that's what I think since I've started looking more into these sets.

Whenever you do it on his shield, he either upB's or jabs or something, since grab would be too slow. Maybe what I'm doing wrong is not forcing Samus to shield? I could see that happening off of a grab or ledge scenario.

Even then, you always fade back when it's against HugS's crouch, which is probably the spacing you were referring to, since you had ample room to throw out both hits.

I'm only asking because it was used that many times during neutral. When I stop to think about it, your conjecture about fair (or threat of) is probably safer for me. But that brings me back to this, since nair is not a move one would typically rely on against Samus/Peach/Marth.

What made it better to use for you?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Nair is an awesome combo move I won't deny that!

And yeah the fadeback helps with Nair generally.

Nair works better for me because I can make a character try to challenge my Nair lag less through faking of other options as well as the threat of my counterattack if they push forward. Basically I'm making them deal with a lot so they don't think of Nair as much which gives it more strength. Granted, you can use it as an alright move in the matchup like I did if you work on dash up fadeback Nair, but I still worry about advising that since Nair is still pretty punishable since you can wait for it start up then hit the other person(Fair you have a harder time seeing since it's just one faster swing).

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee I was rewatching your run at Apex 2015 and noticed something really interesting when you were fighting Leffen. His second stock was almost gone and he had 100+% on him and got the ledge due to a clever angle. Instead of doing what most players would do and respecting his space, you actually ran straight to the ledge before turning around and grabbing him. Did you know that he would opt for the ledgedash usmash, or was it just an excellent choice of mixups?

 

[Smash G 0 D]

Dr Peepee I was rewatching your run at Apex 2015 and noticed something really interesting when you were fighting Leffen. His second stock was almost gone and he had 100+% on him and got the ledge due to a clever angle. Instead of doing what most players would do and respecting his space, you actually ran straight to the ledge before turning around and grabbing him. Did you know that he would opt for the ledgedash usmash, or was it just an excellent choice of mixups?

Obviously I can't speak for PP, but if you read the ledgedash, pivot grab is a better option than most people realize. I've never done it to punish Fox ledgedash Usmash (that's dangerous and you need to be super confident in that read), but instead I use it to punish Sheik ledgedash Ftilts. If she is too happy Shino Stalling and waiting to get the Ftilt out, this is a pretty good way to get a grab and immediately throw her back off stage.


EDIT: I realized I should explicitly point out why this works as well as it does. When most players ledgedash, they do a normal wavedash length, which prohibits any action until the wavedash is completed. This means that they will waveland right through you on their way to do a move. Obviously, you risk getting mixed up - they might ledgejump aerial or something... but that's why this is generally better if you notice it as a habit your opponent has.

 

[AirFair]

Hey Dr Peepee , in the marth ditto, I feel like I can't control my space well, and my opponent gets in for free. I somewhat know how to approach without getting grabbed, but when I don't have enough stage to dd without fear of a move, I feel like I don't have any options to escape besides roll, and I eventually get fsmashed or thrown offstage and killed. What can I do when I feel trapped by marth, and how do I approach better?

 

[Dr Peepee]

Dr Peepee I was rewatching your run at Apex 2015 and noticed something really interesting when you were fighting Leffen. His second stock was almost gone and he had 100+% on him and got the ledge due to a clever angle. Instead of doing what most players would do and respecting his space, you actually ran straight to the ledge before turning around and grabbing him. Did you know that he would opt for the ledgedash usmash, or was it just an excellent choice of mixups?

I knew he would edgedash Usmash. =p

Hey Dr Peepee , in the marth ditto, I feel like I can't control my space well, and my opponent gets in for free. I somewhat know how to approach without getting grabbed, but when I don't have enough stage to dd without fear of a move, I feel like I don't have any options to escape besides roll, and I eventually get fsmashed or thrown offstage and killed. What can I do when I feel trapped by marth, and how do I approach better?

When trapped you're at a disadvantage. You can either try to slowly push your way back in, make a big play forward, or counterattack them coming in. The main thing to remember is your opponent can't always be attacking you, so don't be afraid to try and make them swing.

For approaching, it's pretty much the same rule as before. However there are some other rules to be aware of:

1. Dtilt him on the ground(may need to crouch his)
2. jump if he jumps(or just ftilt/jab/fsmash to beat out the air approach)
3. if you hard read dtilt you can jump over it

 

[AirFair]

2. jump if he jumps(or just ftilt/jab/fsmash to beat out the air approach)

So, how does this translate into other matchups? I've heard this rule before, and I went and watched more sets of you in different matchups to see where you would jump, and I narrowed it down to

1. When you have them in a position with little options, like in the corner. (delayed fair vs ledge options or spaced nair on shield to bait something)
2. To challenge commiting aerials, but jab could do this as well, so I'm not sure
3. To pressure those above you (sh to bait a dj or something, then dj uair/fair)
4. To create a range for yourself at a safe space??? (nair?) not sure about this one, just going off of the previous discussion

Basically, when throwing out an aerial, or just jumping in general, are you looking for these kinds of situations? making commitments is hard, so knowing what to look for helps.

 

[Dr Peepee]

You've pretty much nailed it. For number 4, it's about controlling my zone at threatening range(normal spacing for every matchup) or giving myself control over the space I do have. For number 2, Fair gets more reward than jab so it's preferable to do that when possible. Jab is much faster though and possibilities for pseudo combos/pressure with jab still exist so it's an alright option in itself.

Quick note about number 1: if they have limited options, then jumping is generally stronger for Marth. This is because they can't dash back to punish the landing lag which is Marth's main weakness for jump-ins. Additionally, people like jumping more in the corner so aerials cover that too. Aerials on shield, as long as not spammed(Marth isn't Falco he doesn't need to buttons people) are very strong and safe.

 

[FE_Hector]

Dr Peepee It seems that Armada opts for the FC dair -> nair as an edgeguard against pretty much everybody quite a lot. Do you if it's possible to just SDI out of this setup, or is it actually true. Thought I'd asked you because you've played against Armada a lot.

 

[Dr Peepee]

Yeah you can SDI out of this. You can see me pull this off some vs him.

 

[Xtra_Crispy]

Which way do you SDI to escape the nair? I've been doing it down and away (offstage) but it seems I sometimes get caught by Peach floating forward while dairing instead of doing it in place.